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The Latest Book: A Dance with Dragons


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#2161

Eegah

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 9:24 AM

I honestly have no idea how you could read that into it. Gregor is one of the most evil characters in the whole series, and the only reason Tywin isn't on the same level is that he delegates so much of his dirty work. Why would Martin want us to think better of them now?

#2162

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 2:57 PM

I'm also not a big fan of Dany as a ruler, but she does at least display a caring and empathy for the plight of the less fortunate that no one in any of the Westeros high families seems to share. Jon learned to care for his brothers at the Wall but only because he had to cast aside everything else he had known prior to that time. The only other high-born person who seems to treat people as equals is Arya (being friends with Micah, etc.).

a

Very true. And with Arya, it's not so much a matter of "I'm highborn but they're as good as me" it's "let's pretend I'm not highborn". Dany is actually fully aware of her privilege and responsibilities therein AND cares for the less fortunate.

#2163

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 3:08 PM

No, I never got the impression that the appearance of Young-Griff-Who-Might-Really-Be-Aegon was intended to make us feel that way. It honestly never even occurred to me. For one thing, I always thought that the death of the little girl (Rhaenys?) was milked for a lot more pathos then the infant boy's death was. She had a pet kitten, for God's sake! She tried to hide under the bed!

If any particular reader pleasure was being catered to there, I thought, it was just the pleasure of seeing yet another plot complication added to the pot. I would be very much surprised to learn that by introducing that plot wrinkle Martin was hoping to mitigate Gregor or Tywin's villainy, or to make the events of the sack of KL seem any less horrific to readers.

#2164

Neurotic Kitten

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 8:12 PM

"A Dance With Dragons" has been nominated to the Hugo Awards 2012, in the category of best novel. It's going against "Among Others" by Jo Walton, "Deadline" by Mira Grant, "Embassytown" by China Miéville and "Leviathan Wakes" by James S. A. Corey.

#2165

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 8:51 AM

Besides "Dragons" I've read the Walton and Mieville books. They're both very good but all three books will appeal to very different audiences. "Among Others" is magical realism and "Embassytown" is about humans trying to interact with some very alien aliens.

#2166

benteen

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 9:37 AM

I purchased Embassytown but I haven't read it yet. The premise sounds fascinating.

#2167

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 12:12 PM

I reccomend "Among Others" as well. It's about a teenage girl in the late seventies who is a science fiction and fantasy fan, lives in a boarding school in England (she's Welsh) and sees fairies. Also her mother is a wicked witch.

#2168

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 12:50 PM

Many readers assume that YG is a fake and is being used by Varys/ Illyrio to take the Throne. One theory suggests that YG is Illyrio's son by Serra (the second wife who died of greyscale and whose mummified hands he creepily keeps) and that Aegon is really a Blackfrye, not a Targaryen. I'm thinking that this is correct, which means that the real Aegon still brutally died in the Red Keep. It makes no sense storytelling wise to have a main contender for the throne show up five books in and takes too much away from Dany and Jon's story. I would prefer that Dany and Jon lead the final charge against the Others and that bratty YG ends up as a delicious snack for Drogon after he decides to do something rash like ride a dragon.



As much as I disliked the Aegon plot twist (and agree that it's a plot to sit a fake Targaryen on the throne) its even more annoying to realize that almost all of the events in the 1st 5 books were manipulated by Littlefinger and Varys

#2169

Blue32

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 2:44 PM

almost all of the events in the 1st 5 books were manipulated by Littlefinger and Varys

That seems to me to be of a piece with one of the big recurring plot ideas in this story, where those who are ignored, overlooked or underestimated wind up having the biggest impact (or doing the most damage, depending on how you want to look at it). It also puts the lie to the Hound's claim that "Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world" (...although I suppose the Otherpocalypse, which will render all of Littlefinger and Varys' scheming obsolete in a hurry, may ultimately vindicate the Hound on that point).

Many readers assume that YG is a fake and is being used by Varys/ Illyrio to take the Throne. One theory suggests that YG is Illyrio's son by Serra (the second wife who died of greyscale and whose mummified hands he creepily keeps) and that Aegon is really a Blackfrye, not a Targaryen.

I'd be shocked if Aegon turns out to be the real deal. Even aside from all the references to a false dragon in the books (the "mummer's dragon," the cloth dragon vision, Moqorro referencing "false" dragons in his visions, etc.), there have just been too many hints that Aegon is a fake. There was that statue of a young Illyrio, who was graceful, slender and very handsome in his youth. We learn about Illyrio's wife Serra, with typical Lysene Targaryen-esque looks (beautiful, silver hair, blue eyes). I noticed that Varys' little speech to Kevan at the end of ADWD is very cleverly phrased so that he never actually comes out and states that "Aegon" is Aegon. And so on.

The sole reason I’m inclined to believe Aegon is real is because of Jon Connington- I think it would have taken a lot to convince him, and I do believe that he believes it. Though perhaps, he'd rally want it to be true, which may make him easy to convince?

I expect that Aegon will turn out to be a fake, and that Jon Connington's fate will be one of the crueler jokes of the series: he has devoted himself to putting Aegon on the throne, he contracted greyscale and doomed himself to an early death by saving Tyrion on Aegon's orders, and all for someone who was never his beloved Rhaegar's child to begin with. (Bonus cruelty points if Jon Connington actually finds out the truth about Aegon before he dies.)

Edited by Blue32, Apr 8, 2012 @ 7:07 PM.


#2170

ispycoffee

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 6:31 PM

The sole reason I’m inclined to believe Aegon is real is because of Jon Connington- I think it would have taken a lot to convince him, and I do believe that he believes it. Though perhaps, he'd rally want it to be true, which may make him easy to convince?

I think it would be an great twist to have *Dany* revealed as the Mummer’s dragon- she was born in the middle of a war, there was a dangerous storm; she was brought to Essos as a baby… so who’s to say she is really a Targ? Mother of dragons, sure, but that doesn’t mean Targaryen.

Edited by ispycoffee, Apr 8, 2012 @ 6:32 PM.


#2171

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Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 1:50 PM

Just thought of something. Melisandre doesn't eat or sleep and Moqorro "survived" for days floating in the ocean. Is it possible that the high-ranking red priests aren't technically alive? That they are high functioning zombies? Uncat and Beric became single-minded after they were resurrected. Maybe zombie priests make the best priests. They have no personal ambitions and self-interests, they just focus on doing Rh'llors will.

#2172

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 12:05 PM

... Gregor is one of the most evil characters in the whole series, and the only reason Tywin isn't on the same level is that he delegates so much of his dirty work. Why would Martin want us to think better of them now?

Probably to make him more sympathetic in case of a last minute reunion with Sandor, maybe there's still hope the Clegane brothers would make peace with each other before the saga is over.

Edited by agora, Apr 21, 2012 @ 12:13 PM.


#2173

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 3:43 PM

To paraphrase Tywin, why do you believe it's somehow more evil to kill a dozen people at dinner instead of a thousand in a battle?

The bloody mummers were originally on Robb's side, y'know. The wolves were burning villages just as much as the Lannisters were. The only difference between the two is that Tywin had no illusions about the nobility of what he was doing.

#2174

Cory Lee Hill

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 7:31 PM

The bloody mummers were originally on Robb's side, y'know. The wolves were burning villages just as much as the Lannisters were. The only difference between the two is that Tywin had no illusions about the nobility of what he was doing.


Actually, they started with Tywin and went over to Bolton. I don't know that Robb had anything to do with them.

#2175

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 2:07 PM

So, erm, I have one question: WHAT THE HELL WAS QUENTYN THINKING?? I obviously just finished reading that chapter. All I could say was stupid, stupid, stupid.

#2176

illinidiva

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 7:54 PM

To paraphrase Tywin, why do you believe it's somehow more evil to kill a dozen people at dinner instead of a thousand in a battle?

The bloody mummers were originally on Robb's side, y'know. The wolves were burning villages just as much as the Lannisters were. The only difference between the two is that Tywin had no illusions about the nobility of what he was doing.


I always saw The Red Wedding as an act of vengeance more than anything else. Robb was actually probably the easiest king to kill considering that he was always riding out into battle on the front lines. The Red Wedding was meant to devastate the Starks and the North like the Rains of Castamere. Unfortunately Tywin didm't understand that the North Remembers. As for the Bloody Mummers, they were first on Tywin's side than Roose's.

#2177

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 2:23 AM

To paraphrase Tywin, why do you believe it's somehow more evil to kill a dozen people at dinner instead of a thousand in a battle?

The bloody mummers were originally on Robb's side, y'know. The wolves were burning villages just as much as the Lannisters were. The only difference between the two is that Tywin had no illusions about the nobility of what he was doing.


It's not more evil. It's less honourable. Anyone can see that killing someone who you have sworn not to harm (which is what guest right is) is different than killing someone on the battlefield.

Also the Mummers were Tywin's men originally, and then when "Weasel Soup" happened they went over to Bolton and were awarded Harrenhal for their efforts. Then they tried to prevent the Lannister/Bolton alliance by maiming Jaime, and finally they became common bandits once the alliance went through because they really couldn't go either way anymore because no one could trust them.

#2178

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 3:50 AM

Besides, thousands died during the Red Wedding (all those soldiers in the tents outside were slaughtered), not just a dozen. Probably more people died there than during any battle during Wo5K, except Blackwater. Of course Tywin didn't give a damn about them..

#2179

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 12:13 PM

Whether this was the intention or not, it absolutely convinced me that Dany is purpose-built for conquest, but utterly unfit for rule (which I suppose is still a step up from Viserys, who was fit for nothing). I hope she realises at some point that she needs an heir, or some sort.


I've always seen that as a potential problem - she's yet another heirless ruler so upon her death the Seven Kingdoms are right back to anarchy and civil war with new contenders trying to win the Game of Thrones.

#2180

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Posted May 20, 2012 @ 8:15 PM

I'm only halfway through ADWD so I'll refrain from too much speculating and commentating on the important issues (can't wait though!). However, has anyone else gotten to the point of wanting Tyesha to have always been a whoring, whorey whore who, when she's not whoring, whores around some? I have nothing against the character (in fact I consider Tywin way more evil there than in his part in the Red Wedding). I'm just so sick of Tyrion's self-pitying wallowing.

Meh, she'll probably turn out to be one of the septas, who'll run into Tyrion's waiting arms only to be dumped for someone with shinier hair.

#2181

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 9:11 AM

No, I want Tysha to have a nice life, maybe with a guy who loves her and children. That poor girl deserves every nice thing in the world. If Tyrion does find her, I hope she's happy and he'll leave her alone. She is not even a tertiary character, so I have hope for her getting a happy end.
I wanted to slap Tyrion every time, when he asked "Where do whores go?" in ADWD. Tysha wasn't a whore and a gang rape doesn't make her one. Plus, a prostitute wouldn't have "deserved" a gang rape either.

Edited by Aysa, May 21, 2012 @ 9:12 AM.


#2182

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 12:44 PM

I'm only halfway through ADWD so I'll refrain from too much speculating and commentating on the important issues (can't wait though!). However, has anyone else gotten to the point of wanting Tyesha to have always been a whoring, whorey whore who, when she's not whoring, whores around some? I have nothing against the character (in fact I consider Tywin way more evil there than in his part in the Red Wedding). I'm just so sick of Tyrion's self-pitying wallowing.


YES! Ugh!

I have some very weird Tysha theories, ranging from reasonable conjecture to far-out speculation. The simple story would be that Tywin didn't want Tyrion tied up in a marriage because he still hoped to use him to forge an advantageous alliance, didn't want Tysha showing up later with a legitimate heir to Casterly Rock, didn't want the two getting back together later after he parted, (see, legitimate heir to Casterly Rock,) and therefore made Jaime lie about hiring a virgin whore for Tyrion, and arranged the gang rape to discredit any claims she might have later of an heir conceived during the annulled marriage to Tyrion.

Another possibility: "Their" song was "I loved a maid as fair as gold, with sunlight in her hair." Tysha's a blonde whose name starts with a "T." That's an interesting coincidence, and if Tyrion and Tysha were in fact unwittingly committing incest, Tywin would be highly motivated to destroy the marriage immediately, before the Lannister family became synonymous with incest, like the Targaryen family was. That he'd have his own bastard daughter gang-raped is a bit much, but he might have thought her mother put her up to it, and sought to punish the family by ruining the girl. It would be very interesting if he crushed one incestuous couple in the family only to be confronted with the other one years later.

Tywin bedded Shae...in fact there's good reason to think she was Tywin's whore (and informer,) before becoming Tyrion's. What if this is a pattern? What if Tysha, too, was in bed with both Tywin AND Tyrion, and the gang rape was an act of savage jealousy on Tywin's part? The Lannister men don't seem to take infidelity in their stride much.

#2183

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 8:11 PM

Tysha's a blonde whose name starts with a "T."

I thought Tysha had dark hair.

My favourite crackpot theory for Tysha is that she's the prostitute known as the Sailor's Wife, who insists on marrying all her clients before she beds them. She also has a daughter named Lanna with blonde hair who would be just the right age (13 years old) to have been conceived with Tyrion. It seems significant that in a series where virtually every single character is given a hair/eye colour description, we don't know what the Sailor's Wife hair/eye colour is, and we do know Tysha's colouring.

..."Favourite" might be the wrong word, actually, since if this theory is ever shown to be true, it means that Tysha didn't go on to the happy, peaceful Lannister-free existence she deserved and in fact wound up as a prostitute for real after the lie about her being a prostitute. Ugh.

I've also seen it theorized that Podrick Payne is actually Tyrion's son with Tysha. He's also the right age (13ish), and we don't know what he looks like, and even though we got a detailed explanation of his backstory in AFFC (something about his mom being a chandler's daughter who ran off on him), it might not be the whole story.

My favourite crackpot theory bar none, though, is the theory that Timett son of Timett is the lost heir of the Vale.

Edited by Blue32, May 21, 2012 @ 8:17 PM.


#2184

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 9:23 PM

I know some think that the child of the Sailor's Wife is the bastard of Gerion Lannister.

..."Favourite" might be the wrong word, actually, since if this theory is ever shown to be true, it means that Tysha didn't go on to the happy, peaceful Lannister-free existence she deserved and in fact wound up as a prostitute for real after the lie about her being a prostitute. Ugh.


I'd like to think that Tysha found happiness after what happened to her but that might be difficult for her. There are no hospitals/crisis centers for her to deal with the physical and emotional toll of what happened to her. Lord Tywin is richest and most powerful lord in Westeros so there's no way that Tysha can have him and his men held accountable for what they did to her. It's not unlikely to think what happened to her took a devastating toll on her life. If she can someone recover from what happened to her, then I think she could have found happiness again.

#2185

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Posted May 23, 2012 @ 5:12 PM

I had never considered the Ty/Ty incest angle (which,considering the source material, was obviously a failing on my part.) But I just can't see a) Tywin cheating on Lady Joanna before she died (which he would have had to for Tyesha to be the same age as Tyrion) and/or b) allowing his own child, bastard or not, to be gang-raped. However, if Tyesha was the granddaughter of Tywin's father's piece on the side...?

Speaking of Lannister bastards, does anyone else think maybe all the mentions of Gerion Lannister and the Sailor's wife, etc. might actually be a red herring with the real purpose of introducing Joy Hill,who will turn out to be important?

#2186

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Posted May 24, 2012 @ 7:05 AM

There is the secret tunnel from Tyrion's manor to Chataya's brothel that Varys tells Tyrion a former hand had built. I've always felt this was Tywin and Varys was dropping the info hoping Tyrion would find out. I think he saw Tyrion as someone to recruit for his plots and just needed to separate Tyrion from his Lannister family loyalty. We know from Shae that Tywin wasn't as anti-whore as he acted in public and as hand he spent many years in Kings Landing w/o Joanna. But given his public image and obsession with such, he would have been the type to construct the secret tunnel. That said, I doubt Tysha was a Lannister bastard. If she was Tywin's he would probably have passed her off as another family member's bastard so Jaime wouldn't have picked her for Tyrion's first time (or maybe he would have given his preferred lover) and I imagine any bastard from Tytos and his mistress would have been killed to prevent any Blackfyre type rivalry to the true Lannister line given Tywin's feelings about said mistress.

As for Tysha's fate, I doubt we'll ever find out. I think Tyrion's obsession with 'Where do whores go' in Dance was more to do with dealing with his father's death than actually looking for Tysha. He's focusing on the last thing Tywin said, not anything specific to do with Tysha. It's possible she fled to Essos and they'll meet up, but more likely she's somewhere in the west lands if she's not dead (suicide, natural high mortality rates, died as a result of the war, etc).

#2187

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Posted May 24, 2012 @ 8:55 AM

Okay so a question to you more avid readers... What was the problem that Martin faced when he wrote A Dance With Dragons? Specifically referencing the "Meereneese Knot" that has been mentioned in various interviews. Ive looked online but all info is very vague. Is it the actual minutia of structuring the plot or is it something else. Anyone?

#2188

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Posted May 24, 2012 @ 9:00 AM

What was the problem that Martin faced when he wrote A Dance With Dragons? Specifically referencing the "Meereneese Knot"


The problem was in getting everyone to the right place at the right time. GRRM was initially planning a "five year gap" between books 3 and 4, but gave that up when he found he was writing too much "remember when this happened" dialog and too many flashbacks. IMO, some of the characters had a lot of stuff happen in those five years, but others were basically treading water for the entire time. So he had to make up interesting stuff for them to do while treading water; he was more successful with some than with others.

#2189

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Posted May 24, 2012 @ 10:35 AM

What was the problem that Martin faced when he wrote A Dance With Dragons? Specifically referencing the "Meereneese Knot"

The problem was in getting everyone to the right place at the right time. GRRM was initially planning a "five year gap" between books 3 and 4, but gave that up when he found he was writing too much "remember when this happened" dialog and too many flashbacks. IMO, some of the characters had a lot of stuff happen in those five years, but others were basically treading water for the entire time. So he had to make up interesting stuff for them to do while treading water; he was more successful with some than with others.


Plus there was the issue of what order to get all of Dany's seekers to her. Quentyn, Vicatarion, Tyrion and Jorah, and that Archmaester all have to reach Dany at some point, but Martin couldn't figure out when, in what order, and where Dany needed to be when that happened. He kept experimenting with different sequences and they all led to dead ends.

#2190

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Posted May 24, 2012 @ 5:12 PM

And apparently he cut the Meerenese Knot simply by having only a couple of them actually reach her. Victarion is still delayed somewhere near the Isle of Cedars, Tyrion and Jorah are slaves right outside the city, and the Archmaester Marwyn is MIA.

Edited by ElymianDucat, May 26, 2012 @ 10:29 PM.