267 replies to this topic

[anothermi]

Wow... This guy is some piece of work. He's symbolically gutting the Stag (while his daughter gets the real life gutting done). He makes his grown, arrogant son look and feel like a whipped dog. And he sure thinks his heritage (name) is the next coming of christ (or the Targarens - take your pick).

I was suitably frightened by him and hope to keep him away from MY House by giving him this thread.

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, he seems to be one dangerous hardass. And as I said in the Lannister thread, even in that one scene, I already can tell how the Lannister children have become the way they are because of him. Cersei seemed to develop the hunger of power and heritage from him, I suspect he has always kind of been harsh on Jaime which is why Jaime seems to be really arrogant and overcompensating a lot, and I have a feeling he could care less about Tyrion, which is why Tyrion has to use his smarts and humor all the time, because I doubt he got much love from Tywin.

And I was unspoiled about the casting choice, so I'm thrilled they got Charles Dance. I have a feeling he really can make this character something special.

[anothermi]

and I have a feeling he could care less about Tyrion,

That seemed to be the case, but he did say that Tyrion may be the lowest of the Lannisters, but his is still a Lannister.

The thing I DON'T understand is why Tywin let Tyrion live at all. I may be wrong, but I think dwarfism is noticable at birth and I can see Tywin as the sort to try to hide any Lannister imperfections from the world.

It leaves me wondering about Ma Lannister (a Lannister only by marriage?). Was she the one that basically spared Tyrion's life? If so, then what was the relationship dynamic between her and Tywin-the-Superior? Did he actually love someone at one time? I hope we get more on this back story at some point in the series. (not expecting it this season)

[Sad Doctor]

Just imagine the Lannister household with the kids growing up.

"Daddy, Daddy, look at my puppy!"
"Soon your puppy will be dead son. Then your kitty will die, then I'll be dead, then your brother, then your sister, then all of your children. All of us, rotting in the ground. Lannister uber alles!"
". . . . ."

[Smagu]

To which Cersei replies "Good point, Father" and snaps the puppy's neck.

[Sad Doctor]

Hey, when you play the game of thrones you win or you die

And that puppy clearly didn't have the political acumen to be King.

[Scrapper]

LOLed at his line to Jaime about "No, smart remark?". Made me think part of the reason Tyrion hides behind quips and smart remarks is because he knows his father hates them.

[emjay1116]

I haven't read the books, but from that one scene I totally get that Tywin is not somebody to be fucked with. Sure, he'll fuck with you if he gets the chance, but don't even think about messing with him. He's arrogant, proud, full of himself and his family's name and money, and believes they are above the rest of Westeros. He even makes Jaime act like a scared little boy. You can easily see that Cersei was the one of the kids who listened to him most and took what he said to heart. And it's clear why Tyrion, with his being a dwarf and drinking and whoring around, is tolerated and wasn't left to die as an infant; he may be the lowest of Lannisters, but he's still a Lannister (and that makes him better than others, even if he is a drunk dwarf).
He almost makes life at The Wall look warm and cuddly.



And judging from comments by people who have read the books, this is exactly the impression I should be getting. So good job with the casting, writing, and acting here.

Edited by emjay1116, May 30, 2011 @ 2:11 PM.

[cyberducks]

Charles Dance is really good as the biggest daddy of them all. I always found it funny that of all three of his kids Jaime is the least like him.

[TudorQueen]

I've thought Charles Dance was terrific from the time I saw him in "Jewel of the Crown" some years ago, and he's just wonderful as Tywin, establishing in one scene what a proud, cold, terrible man he is.

[bluvelvet]

To which Cersei replies "Good point, Father" and snaps the puppy's neck.

*laughs* That's sounds so Cersei. From what I saw of Daddy Lannister he still is a force to be reckoned with. Cersei definitely took after him with her edict of "anyone who isn't us is an enemy", sounds like that was a part of the Lannister children's bedtime story.

[Khellus]

Tywin and Ned are probably my two favourite characters from the book, episode 6 should show you why I like Tywin so much. Effortlessly in control, in every situation, and enough of a hardass to turn Jaime freaking Lannister into a whimpering child.

Anyone else reckon that Tywin on the throne and Ned as his Hand would work pretty well?

[kieran555]

They'd hate each other, but as long as Ned remained independently powerful, I think they could make it work surprisingly well- Tywin was Hand for twenty years for a Mad King, so when he has to be I think he would pragmatically accept an arrangement that kept the realm together if it avoided war.

Really though, it would probably be better for the realm if they remained separate and Tywin and the Lannisters could just enforce a kind of unofficial primacy over the less wealthy kingdoms, as occasionally happened durnig Britain's Heptarchy.

Edited by kieran555, Jun 1, 2011 @ 5:32 AM.

[ElizaD]

I can't wait to see Charles Dance interact with the rest of the cast.

The thing I DON'T understand is why Tywin let Tyrion live at all. I may be wrong, but I think dwarfism is noticable at birth and I can see Tywin as the sort to try to hide any Lannister imperfections from the world.

Maybe having him killed would have been like admitting the Lannisters did produce a failure no better than the peasant dwarfs abandoned to die?

Anyone else reckon that Tywin on the throne and Ned as his Hand would work pretty well?

The other way around, I think. Ned as the just, moral warrior king the people can admire and want to serve, and Tywin as the practical Hand who takes care of non-military business and scares the ambitious troublemakers into submission. One of my favorite "what ifs" to ponder is what would have happened if Ned had been pushed into taking the throne despite his lack of ambition and had been free to marry Cersei. He wouldn't have been a worthless husband like Robert, so maybe Cersei wouldn't have turned to twincest. Even if she had, Ned would have tried to give Joffrey the same lessons about duty and decency we saw him giving Bran. And if Tywin had been Hand instead of Jon Arryn, he might have managed the realm's finances better, which would also have been helped by Ned not being a wastrel. Tywin would want his grandchild to inherit a powerful realm, and with his respect for law and order Ned would tolerate Tywin as long as he didn't commit atrocities. There's a decent chance of peace and prosperity. But of course, it's more dramatic if Westeros is a shambles when the white walkers attack.

[Maximum Taco]

The other way around, I think. Ned as the just, moral warrior king the people can admire and want to serve, and Tywin as the practical Hand who takes care of non-military business and scares the ambitious troublemakers into submission. One of my favorite "what ifs" to ponder is what would have happened if Ned had been pushed into taking the throne despite his lack of ambition and had been free to marry Cersei. He wouldn't have been a worthless husband like Robert, so maybe Cersei wouldn't have turned to twincest.

She wouldn't have even had the opportunity. Ned would never have pardoned Jaime after he slew the Mad King. If Ned had taken the Iron Throne I'd expect to see Jaime all in black as opposed to white.

[SimplyS]

I think Ned and Cersei would've made a formidable and very effective dynasty that truly replaced the Targaryens and united Westeros.

It's impossible for any number of reasons, of course (mainly I don't think there's any situation in which Ned puts aside Catelyn and Robb), but it's fun to think about.

I think even the Robert/Cersei scene displayed she could've been a very useful queen had their marriage been even a little more amicable.

[anothermi]

He (Ned) wouldn't have been a worthless husband like Robert, so maybe Cersei wouldn't have turned to twincest.

She wouldn't have even had the opportunity. Ned would never have pardoned Jaime after he slew the Mad King. If Ned had taken the Iron Throne I'd expect to see Jaime all in black as opposed to white.

Agreed. Which brings us back to Tywin, who wouldn't serve as Hand if his "golden" (if lacking in ambition) son were sentenced to the wall. I think Ned & Tywin working together in times of peace is a non-starter. Not sure about against a common threat.

[rerunz]

Why didn't Tywin remarry after Tyrion was born? Was he that impressed with Jaime that he wasn't worried about not having other heirs?

[kieran555]

We can only speculate - he was worried about producing another dwarf perhaps, or truly loved his wife. But on his speech from his first appearence, it appears he cares most about the furthering of Lannister prestige than any personal prestige, which could mean he really does not care about producing more heirs so long as he thinks the House will be served in good stead - he can deal with Tyrion if he has to (hell, he practically tried to get him killed in episode 9), and Jaime is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard but doesn't exactly follow all the rules there, so he could still be made heir if Tywin is powerful enough and the Kingsguard diminished enough (already it is no longer for life thanks to the dismissal of Ser Barristan.

[Grom]

This show has had a lot of brilliant casting but Charles Dance as Tywin has been so freaking perfect. I could not think of a more perfect actor to play him.

[Holding]

Why didn't Tywin remarry after Tyrion was born? Was he that impressed with Jaime that he wasn't worried about not having other heirs?

I always got the feeling that Tywin just truly loved his first wife and never had any interest in remarrying after she died. Which helps explain why he so loathes Tyrion. Plus it seems to be a shared trait of the Lannister men - they might be ruthless, deadly and vicious, but they turn into Disney Princesses when it comes to relationships.

[Regina Thorne]

it seems to be a shared trait of the Lannister men - they might be ruthless, deadly and vicious, but they turn into Disney Princesses when it comes to relationships.

Best comment ever! And so, so true :D Lots of people do seem to suggest that Tywin was a bit different when his wife was alive, so it does seem like he gave her all his love and didn't have any left over.

I don't think Tywin particularly cares WHICH Lannister inherits, just that it be a Lannister (so his brother whom we saw, or nephews or whoever might be just fine with him.) But it could also be the case that like all the Lannisters, Tywin has a blind spot that he refuses to acknowledge - maybe he's figuring that one day, his grandson and Jaime's nephew (and son, but Tywin, I think, doesn't know that!) will be King and can change the Kingsguard around so that Jaime can inherit Casterly Rock. He can afford to wait.

Edited by Regina Thorne, Jun 15, 2011 @ 1:29 PM.

[Holding]

Best comment ever! And so, so true

Heh, I think I might just be bitter because I'm a quarter of the way through the fourth book and so far all Jaime has done is whine about wanting to get married and have babies. It's like watching an episode of How I Met Your Mother.

On topic though, I'm loving Tywin in the show. I wasn't particularly interested in him in the books, but now his scenes are some of my favourites. I can't wait to see his interactions with Cersei. I'm also intrigued by Kevan, who seems a lot nicer, funnier and more relaxed than his brother at the moment. A bit like an older version of Jaime. I totally love all the Lannisters. Well... except Lancel - I'm with Robert on that one.

[Blue32]

it seems to be a shared trait of the Lannister men - they might be ruthless, deadly and vicious, but they turn into Disney Princesses when it comes to relationships.

Hee. This is absolutely true: Tyrion and Jaime, in their own weird, twisted way, are total romantics. Tywin was totally gone on his wife, Joanna Lannister, and it's said that the best part of him died when she did.

This show has had a lot of brilliant casting but Charles Dance as Tywin has been so freaking perfect. I could not think of a more perfect actor to play him.

I know! I have hearts in my eyes whenever he's on screen. It was love from the moment I saw him gutting that stag and waving a knife around while he's lecturing Jaime, while Jaime, normally so self-assured, is so intimidated he looks like he's about to throw up.

Edited by Blue32, Jun 17, 2011 @ 9:32 PM.

[Regina Thorne]

From the "In the Media" thread where we were talking about Tywin Lannister as possibly the worst father in Westeros, although I'm still going with a tie (Samwell Tarly's father, Lord Tarly, is up there!)

I don't see Tywin Lannister as a case of bad father as much as a hell hath no fury like a man scorned: Tyrion was deeply loved once, by a woman who died to give him life. It was only tough luck for Tywin that said woman was his wife.

But that makes him a TERRIBLE parent. His children have lost their mother and his attitude is to hate the child she left behind and try to get him killed in a battle. (Not to mention the whole Tysha thing, which is not only revoltingly cruel to the poor girl, but also a severe case of making sure that Tyrion knows his place: that he is never going to be loved by anyone, ever, unless he pays for it. No wonder that - book spoiler for Tyrion's relationships with his siblings -Tyrion loves Jaime so much - Jaime is the only person in his immediately family who genuinely loves him.

And although we haven't seen Tywin interact with Cersei, I think the way that he eviscerated Jaime made it pretty clear that it's no picnic even being the favored child of Tywin Lannister. All in all, I'm flabbergasted that anyone could possibly think that Ned is a worse father than Tywin. Seriously, seriously flabbergasted!

[pretoriantoo]

I don't see Tywin Lannister as a case of bad father as much as a hell hath no fury like a man scorned: Tyrion was deeply loved once, by a woman who died to give him life. It was only tough luck for Tywin that said woman was his wife.

But that makes him a TERRIBLE parent. His children have lost their mother and his attitude is to hate the child she left behind and try to get him killed in a battle...

Then again, Tywon is not a terrible father to Jaime & Cercei, at least not that I could see. I think one of the most fascinating aspects of the Lannisters is the different dynamics at play: so far, I've seen genuine affection for Jaime, genuine contempt for Tywin and something that almost resembles to genuine fear for Cercei.

Is almost like Tywon himself set them all in their respective places.

Edited by pretoriantoo, Jun 18, 2011 @ 9:12 PM.

[SimplyS]

I didn't really see genuine affection for Jaime in his scene with Tywin. I saw frustration and disappointment that Jaime wasn't the man Tywin wanted him to be, and I saw Jaime doing the equivalent of a 12-year-old boy who'd been bad getting a talking-to from his Very Displeased Daddy. He acknowledged Jaime was gifted but bitched at him for wasting his talents as a "glorified bodyguard." As for Cersei, who knows? None of the Lannisters seem to have a healthy family dynamic. I think Jaime and Tyrion come the closest to being somewhat like normal brotherly affection, and even that's not without some weirdness. This family ain't right.

Tywin wants his children to live up to their obligations as Lannisters. His scenes with both Tyrion and Jaime conveyed, to me, disappointment that they weren't what he expected of them. Except Jaime has the potential to "live up" to what Tywin wants if he gets his shit together, according to Dad's expectations, but Tyrion never will.

Edited by SimplyS, Jun 18, 2011 @ 9:34 PM.

[halfwaygone]

Tywin wants his children to live up to their obligations as Lannisters. His scenes with both Tyrion and Jaime conveyed, to me, disappointment that they weren't what he expected of them. Except Jaime has the potential to "live up" to what Tywin wants if he gets his shit together, according to Dad's expectations, but Tyrion never will.

Oh, come on---all Tyrion had to do to earn his father's love was not kill his mother and be taller, and he couldn't even manage that. Is that really so much to ask? (Kidding!)

At any rate, I think Tywin is a crap father, but at least he does try to prepare his children for the world and import some wisdom. I would place my order of fathers on the show so far as:

Ned > Drogo (to be!) > Lord Commander Mormont (points deducted for raising a traitor) > Tywin > Robert > Lord Frey = or > Lord Tarly (haven't technically met him, but threatening to kill your firstborn just for being wussy gets you at the bottom of the list; look how nice the Tywin/Tyrion relationship looks in comparison, and Sam didn't even kill his mother.)

Did I miss any fathers? At any rate, that puts Tywin solidly at the middle of the pack so far. Sure, he's no "I'll buy you a doll and bond with you" like Ned, but he's also no "Want to have a hunting 'accident'?" with his kids either.

[true gamester]

Why do you think Walder Frey is a bad father? He takes care of all his children.

[halfwaygone]

Why do you think Walder Frey is a bad father? He takes care of all his children.

He refuses to die! And he talks to them like they're crap. But you're right, someone could make a case that he's better than Robert and potentially Tywin.