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Tyrion Lannister: The Imp Always Pays His Debts


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#211

Shimmergloom

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Posted Jun 14, 2013 @ 1:04 AM

As for annulments we know that Tyrion's first marriage was annulled and we got the impression from the Septa to Sansa what would happen if she had no sons, so that's two ways an annulment could happen.  But also based on things like the bedding ceremony, we can infer that if the marriage is not consummated then it's not valid.  I don't think the show specifically said that though, but I saw it on Borgias and all that is mixed up in my head.


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#212

screamin

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Posted Jun 14, 2013 @ 12:30 PM

 

Any reconciliation by virtue of a match with Littlefinger would go flying out the window if Lysa were known to be harbouring a Lannister fugitive (which is what Sansa would surely be if she left King's Landing without Tywin or Joffrey's blessing, Tywin and Tyrion's sentiments on the subject aside).

 

 

 

I meant that in theory it's possible that Jaime could OPENLY request to Tywin that Tyrion's marriage be annulled and that Sansa be sent to the Vale as payment of his debt of honor, not that Jaime would somehow do it in secret (or even could, especially the annulment part). Theoretically speaking, there's no insurmountable barrier to that.

 

In practice, of course, it's impossible. Tyrion probably wouldn't have a problem testifying that he never touched Sansa to get her annulment; he MIGHT feel that nutty Lysa wouldn't be the greatest guardian (as Jaime in his simplicity might overlook), but IMO nutty Joffrey is still a worse one. The main obstacle would, of course, be Tywin. He would not accept letting Sansa go based on some notion of honor. He'd say to Jaime, "I had Catelyn killed, that cancels any debt you owe her," and think no more of it.

 

What I'm really wondering is if Jaime will have the courage to raise his vow to Catelyn about Sansa at all before Tywin, or will he just meekly forget it completely.

 

 


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#213

Last Hearth

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Posted Jun 14, 2013 @ 6:21 PM

If Jaime doesn't make an effort to fulfill his promise after telling Brienne "I'll keep my promise, I swear it." Then he's right back to being the child-killing SOB he was in season 1,


Edited by Last Hearth, Jun 14, 2013 @ 6:21 PM.

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#214

Blue32

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Posted Jun 15, 2013 @ 3:09 AM

The main obstacle would, of course, be Tywin. He would not accept letting Sansa go based on some notion of honor. He'd say to Jaime, "I had Catelyn killed, that cancels any debt you owe her," and think no more of it.

 

That's pretty much how I would imagine that conversation would go, although I'd imagine there would be a number of insulting Tywin remarks in the mix as well.

 

What I'm really wondering is if Jaime will have the courage to raise his vow to Catelyn about Sansa at all before Tywin, or will he just meekly forget it completely.

 

Since the gaps between the Season 1 and 2 finales and the Season 2 and 3 premieres (respectively) featured a little bit of a time jump, I'm worried the show might gloss over it.


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#215

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Posted Jun 16, 2013 @ 9:45 PM

 

What I'm really wondering is if Jaime will have the courage to raise his vow to Catelyn about Sansa at all before Tywin, or will he just meekly forget it completely.

 

 

 

Taking this to the Jaime thread


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#216

Hecate7

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Posted Jun 19, 2013 @ 8:28 PM

Tyrion might not object to annulling the marriage, but I think he'd object strongly to sending her to Lysa Tully, based on his own experience of the woman. And the next choice, Edmure Tully, is in a dungeon, so that's out. The Blackfish's whereabouts are unknown.

 

That leaves Jon Snow. I think Tyrion would cooperate on that score, but I'm not sure how long Sansa would be allowed to live as a refugee at the wall.

 

Tyrion would go along, I think, with what Sansa wants, but I think he'd caution her about the Spartan existence at the wall, and the fact that it's mostly peopled with rapists and criminals. But it wouldn't matter what Tyrion thought, as long as Tywin was there to oppose the annulment.


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#217

FictionIsntReal

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Posted Jun 20, 2013 @ 8:46 PM

Lysa may have been wacky when Tyrion last saw her, but would he really have reason to think Sansa would be disadvantaged there?


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#218

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Posted Jun 20, 2013 @ 11:22 PM

I would think so. Look at Lysa's son. Do you consider him disadvantaged? I do.

 

Lysa is absolutely crazy. She's breast-feeding a child who's Bran's age. Compare Sweetrobin in his episode, to the thoughtful Bran at his lessons. There is no telling what a woman like that might do to a beautiful adolescent girl. Probably treat her like a baby one day, and the next beat her for some imagined sluttishness.

 

Should the marriage be annulled, there is still the very strong possibility that Lysa would distrust Sansa and suspect her of spying for the Lannisters or conspiring against her precious son, because of her brief marriage to Tyrion. Lysa shows signs of clinical paranoia, so no one is really safe with  her. Tyrion knew this before his trial at the Vale.


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#219

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Posted Jun 21, 2013 @ 5:17 AM

Tyrion might not object to annulling the marriage, but I think he'd object strongly to sending her to Lysa Tully, based on his own experience of the woman. And the next choice, Edmure Tully, is in a dungeon, so that's out. The Blackfish's whereabouts are unknown.

If her relatives were ruled out, I'm sure Brienne could take her to Tarth.  Not Sansa's ideal destination, of course, but anything is better than King's Landing.


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#220

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Posted Jun 21, 2013 @ 11:16 AM

Should the marriage be annulled, there is still the very strong possibility that Lysa would distrust Sansa and suspect her of spying for the Lannisters or conspiring against her precious son, because of her brief marriage to Tyrion. Lysa shows signs of clinical paranoia, so no one is really safe with  her. Tyrion knew this before his trial at the Vale.

I could see this being a reason Tyrion would not send Sansa to the Vale. He knows Lysa is mentally unstable. He knows she thinks he killed her husband (I don't think she's been convinced otherwise) or at the very least, if she has actually glommed onto the fact it wasn't him, it was a member of his family. Sansa would likely be tainted in her eyes.

 

I don't think Tyrion is in love with Sansa but I do think that he regards her well and worries for her. Should it not cost him too dearly I believe he would protect her, even from her own family.

 

I think Tyrion is not a cruel man though he might be considered a weak one where his father is concerned. His concerns about life out of daddy's protection are valid, IMO, and so I can understand him towing the line for the most part. But I wonder how far he would go. So far it seems he will not rape Sansa on daddy's command, even though she was extremely reluctantly ready to lay down with him as was her "duty", so she'd been taught her whole life. I am curious to see what he will do if she continues to be an unwilling wife and Tywin continues to hound him for a son. That will be a real test of character for Tyrion. So far I like to think he will find a way to wiggle his way out of it, but what would he do if he couldn't? Will he force Sansa? Will he flee? Will he actually say no to Daddy?

 

I am surprisingly loving this marriage. There is a lot of possibility in it for some interesting character exploration for both him and Sansa and to a lesser extent Shae but since I can't stand her I don't care about that.


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#221

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Posted Jun 21, 2013 @ 3:31 PM

I am surprisingly loving this marriage. There is a lot of possibility in it for some interesting character exploration for both him and Sansa and to a lesser extent Shae but since I can't stand her I don't care about that.

 

I definitely agree.   It's a really bizzare kind of love-triangle, in a manner only Game of Thrones can do. LOL. 

 

I recently rewatched the episode and though I could have really used a smidge more Sansa, I did like that Tyrion seemed genuinely hurt FOR her.  Very few people in this series genuinely feel for others and definitely not anyone in the Lannister clan.   It was like he was commiserating with her without being in the room with her (by her choice).

 

And it would be super interesting to see Tyrions thoughts on sending Sansa back to the only family she has (that's known in Westeros) Lyssa Arynn because while he wants her safe from Joffrey and away from Cersei and Tywin, I don't think he'd like the idea of Sansa trapped in that tower of Madness with Queen of Insanity herself, it really would be a pick your poison type of deal.

 

Though between the two one has to say they sure do have a LOT of enemies.  Tywin, Joffrey, Cersei, the rank and file members of the Kings Landing Court (since it's clear both Tyrion and Sansa appear to be Out or off-trend if you will) and one has to wonder if Littlefinger is done with Sansa.   Is he a friend or foe now.  Granted he didn't come out and swear vengeance but he did totally leave her in the path of an oncoming train.   Whether his obsession over Catelyn has fully transferred over to Sansa will  probably determine how he interacts with Tyrion and Sansa in the future.  Ned Stark was the last man married to the Woman Littlefinger was obsessed with and we saw where that got him.

 

I think this is one of the better character pairings to come out of Season 3.  A genuinely intrigueing storyline.


Edited by DrScheme, Jun 21, 2013 @ 3:34 PM.

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#222

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Posted Jul 28, 2013 @ 12:30 PM

Not Sansa's ideal destination, of course, but anything is better than King's Landing.

 

I'm not sure that's true at all. Although the constant threat of Joffrey looms in the background, the Freys and the Boltons are just as bad, and they seem to have people everywhere. The Vale has Lysa, and I think she might turn out to be as bad as Joffrey, and that awful child of hers might, too, especially as he grows older.

 

Whatever Tarth's like, we don't see Brienne longing for it or remembering it fondly. Dragonstone's a bad bet right now, as is the wall. In fact, I think every character in the story, except possibly Danaerys, is worse off than Sansa at the moment.

 

It was like he was commiserating with her without being in the room with her (by her choice).

 

I liked that moment, too. He was genuinely sad for her, and seemed to realize that at that moment, any attempt to comfort her or talk to her at all was like rubbing salt in the wound. The only thing he could do without hurting her, was leave her alone. It is rare to see a character on this show really empathize with another, and Dinklage conveys it very well.


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#223

tripthelight

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Posted Jul 28, 2013 @ 7:29 PM

Oh, we're back on "Tyrion is the super specialest, Sansa has it better than anyone else and is lucky" again? Cool. It's been days.


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#224

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Posted Jul 28, 2013 @ 8:20 PM

 

I think every character in the story, except possibly Danaerys, is worse off than Sansa at the moment.

 

 

 

I should probably take this to Sansa's thread. 


Edited by Fable, Jul 28, 2013 @ 8:32 PM.

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#225

Hecate7

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Posted Apr 11, 2014 @ 9:44 PM

So, it has crossed my mind that perhaps the right thing for Tyrion to do, would be to annul Sansa on the grounds that the marriage has not been consummated, and also Joffrey was right, she is a traitor and it's stupid to ally with her anyway.

 

After all, her mother did try to have him executed. And her brother would have hanged him along with all the other Lannisters, had he won the war. And Sansa was every bit as responsible for Tyrion's capture, torture, and near execution, as Tyrion is for Bran's fall and the Red Wedding. Ie, not remotely, but her family did it, so that makes it her fault too. Of course, by that logic, Joffrey was right to have Sansa beaten for her brother's rebellion, which is why I have always rejected that logic on either side.

 

There's not much reason to hope that Tyrion could ever hold Winterfell. Should he ever try, the Northmen would murder him and remarry Sansa to Ramsay Snow or someone they perceived as ruthless and Northern enough to hold Winterfell. Any children of that union would fall prey to unfortunate accidents, leaving the way clear for Bolton-Starks, or Karstark-Starks, or whichever Northern family was ruthless and pushy and violent enough to get Tyrion out of the way first. Tyrion would be fairly safe at Casterly Rock, but Tywin won't give it to him, and Sansa would refuse to go there. As pretty as she is, Sansa is a deadly time bomb hanging around his neck, and Tyrion's an idiot not to realize it. Moreover, she's costing him the only happiness he's ever known: Shae.

 

The marriage is yet another in a series of Tywin's murder attempts on his son. First, he tries to kill him by putting him in charge of the drains instead of letting him train as a maester. Then he tries to kill him by botching his rescue, sending neither raven nor ransom to Lord or Lady Stark, but instead starting a war over it. Then he puts Tyrion in the vanguard of the first battle. When this fails, he sends him to be Joffrey's Hand, even though he knows Cersei and Joffrey are psychopaths, and he knows something mysterious has happened to the last two Hands, Jon Arryn and Ned Stark, and that whatever it was Robert Baratheon sure wasn't behind it. When Tyrion miraculously lives through that, and the battle of Blackwater, Tywin marries him to Sansa Stark, and then butchers her family, no doubt hoping the girl will murder Tyrion in their bed, allowing him to dispatch her, the last of the Stark family, quite legally and heroically, and be awarded Winterfell by Joffrey, by royal decree.

 

Probably the best thing for both of them would be for Tyrion to divorce Sansa and let her go wherever Joffrey's rejects go, but he's too tender-hearted. He's like a cat hoarder, here. He knows Sansa's chances without him are quite slim, and mistakenly believes that this is somehow his problem. His belief that if he saves her life enough times, shows her enough kindness, and keeps her from harm, in ten years or so she'll look up and see him as her champion, and love him, is worthy of Sansa herself. It is exactly the kind of wrong-headed romantic vision she would concoct, were she standing in his shoes.

 

If his eyes were clear, he would recognize Sansa for what she is: just the latest slice of the poisoned pie Tywin's been serving him all his life, and not in fact a sweet little stray wolf pup in need of shelter and TLC. Maybe he should just understand that they are enemies, and act accordingly.


Edited by Hecate7, Apr 11, 2014 @ 10:13 PM.

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#226

Spartan Girl

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Posted Apr 16, 2014 @ 1:36 PM

I'm a newbie to Game of Thrones, but from everything I see so far, I like Tyrion despite his faults.  When he isn't drinking or whoring he's quite the diplomat, and it showed when Joffrey was publicly debasing him with the dwarf show at the purple wedding.  God bless Peter Dinklage.


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