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Tyrion Lannister: The Imp Always Pays His Debts


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#1

TudorQueen

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 2:25 PM

As long as major characters are getting their own threads, I think Tyrion definitely deserves one. It would take at least an entire thread to get to the bottom of this character; I think he's one of the most fascinating and compelling figures in the series to date. And Peter Dinklage completely rocks the role.

Whether pissing off the top of the Wall or pissing off everyone around him, Tyrion is never boring. He has "a weak spot for cripples, bastards and broken things" and a penchant for quotable quips. The fact that his brother Jaime is the only other Lannister who seems to have any affection for him at all reflects well on the Kingslayer, IMHO, and I was intrigued by his gradual friendship with Jon Snow and hope to see more of that.

Also he and Bronn could have a wickedly good spinoff - the Imp and the Sellsword (coming just before the other great spinoff, The Hound and the Mountain).
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#2

kieran555

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 2:53 PM

Loving the character. He's had some of the very best lines, and some of the few comedic moments to date, he's shown wit and charm, a soft side to the downtrodden, and a hell of a lot of panache.

He has been shown to be deeply flawed, being arrogant, irrreverent, he could stand to still his sharp tongue, he appears loyal to his mostly nasty family, but never to the point that I don't care what happens to him. He's faced battle, trial, rudeness, and returned in kind for all of them, earning a great deal of respect from me at least, and he's consistenly entertaining.

And now he is leaving the heart of the Vale, hill tribesmen all around, with no gold and just a single sellsword at his side. But who'd bet against him at this stage?
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#3

anothermi

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 3:12 PM

Thanks for the thread TudorQueen. I was about to start one, but got stuck on choosing a fitting title. (I was leaning towards Tyrion Lannister: Don't Let Him Mock Your Turtle Stew. However I also felt it should reference a jackass and a honeycomb. You get my dilemma.)

There has been a string of posts in the general Lannister thread on Tyrion. They start with post #107 and go at least to #112.

He has definitely been the character I have been most entertained by, and despite seeing many sides of him he still proves to be an enigma. I'm guessing he is loyal to his House, but he masks it very well. He also seems to have at least one decent bone in his body (no, not boner) because of his treatment of Jon Snow and Bran.

I always look forward to his parts of each episode.

And now he is leaving the heart of the Vale, hill tribesmen all around, with no gold and just a single sellsword(*) at his side. But who'd bet against him at this stage?

kieran555, I too worried about the fact that he was off almost on his own with no money. But he does have Bronn (who seems to get the abstract concept of ownership) and the fact that everone knows a Lannister always pays his debts, so it's likely he'd get to charge for food and lodging.

*It's taken me a while of seeing it but I finally understand what people are saying with the word sellsword. I kept reading it as sells word. Doh.
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#4

thuganomics85

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 4:27 PM

Tyrion has easily became my favorite character in both the book and the series, which alone is kind of impressive, because I pretty much love the entire cast (even some of the smaller actors/characters) and find most of them to be fascinating. But Peter Dinklage is just amazing as Tyrion on so many levels. What's great about Tyrion is I find him entertaining and hilarious, but he is still flawed. I do think he is arrogant and cocky, can be condescending and a jerk to some, and while still treated like crap by the majority of his family, I suspect he still had an easier and more pampered life then the majority of the characters in Westeros. But I love how underneath all of that, plus all the whoring around, you can see the decency in him, like him helping Bran with the saddle and being the only Lannister who even bothered to keep an update on his condition after he fell, giving Jon Snow advice so life at The Wall could be better for him, and even saving Catalyn's life, when he could have just simply let the person who accused him of murder die.

One thing I found interesting is that while his plan to have Jaime fight for him at the trial ended up falling through, Bronn helping him impresses me on another level. Basically, Tyrion was able to form a bond with someone who started out as one of his captors, and built a big enough of a relationship with him that Bronn was willing to participate in a fight to the death for him. Now, for all I know Bronn had other reasons besides some kind of friendship, like maybe he is banking on Tyrion giving him some Lannister money, but I still think is speaks highly over how charming and how good he is at forming bonds with other people (besides Bronn, I really dug how he bonded with Jon.)

The relationship I'm most curious about his him and Jaime. While not complete BFFs, I really got the sense Jaime cares for him more then the rest of the family, and I think Tyrion likes him back. But it's still a complex relationship. Don't want to get into the book too much, but I wonder if the show will bring up how Tyrion's first time was with a whore that Jaime paid to pretend to be a regular common woman they saved from bandits. On one hand, that is twisted as hell, but I could see why in Jaime's mind, he thought he was doing something good for Tyrion, because he knew not many women would have sex with a dwarf, and he wanted Tyrion's first time to be more then just a whore.
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#5

fallingfortruth

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 9:23 PM

thuganomics85, I don't know how far you've read yet, but: It turns out that Tysha actually was exactly what she appeared to be, and really did honestly love Tyrion. Tywin found out and flipped a shit and FORCED Jaime to lie to Tyrion. Because Tywin is a sociopathic asshole who was down with sponsoring the gang-rape of his youngest son's loving wife to teach him an object lesson.

Sorry for the spoiler bars.
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#6

Pallas429

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 6:30 AM

But he does have Bronn (who seems to get the abstract concept of ownership)...


And good morning to you, anothermi!
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#7

darkestboy

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Posted Jun 3, 2011 @ 7:35 AM

I love Tyrion. By far the best character of the bunch and Peter Dinklage is such an unbridled joy as well.

I think he's also the best new character on TV this year too.
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#8

AthenaC

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Posted Jun 6, 2011 @ 9:28 PM

This probably says something wrong about me, but I think Tyrion as played by Peter Linklage is pretty hot.

Smart, decent looking, sassy, willing to reach out to others, and perverted. What more could a girl want?
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#9

fuzzybear

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Posted Jun 7, 2011 @ 12:59 PM

You are not alone! I posted this back on the Lannister thread a while age. PD as Tyrion is the smokiness of all smoking hotness on TV right now. Total charisma, which for me is far more important than any specific physical trait. My crush grows every week and then this week! Vulnerable, nervous Tyrion in front of the father that hates him? How much can a girl take? Itís too much!
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#10

Blue32

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Posted Jun 7, 2011 @ 7:16 PM

Normally, I don't care when film or book adaptations cast actors or actresses who are better looking than the characters are supposed to be--except maybe all the smoking hot Rochesters in Jane Eyre adaptations over the years (I rolled my eyes so hard when Michael Fassbender was cast in the latest iteration)--but with Tyrion, casting a decent-looking actor really, really fucks with the characterization. Tyrion is supposed to be hideous. And when you're not only a dwarf, but a hideous dwarf, and that tends to dictate much of the treatment you get (rather than your intelligence or your knowledge or your capabilities) it tends to mess with your head.

Tyrion's tendency towards smart remarks and bitchy takedowns seems less awesome when you realize that it's largely a coping mechanism to deal with the hand he's been dealt, and it's hard to get a sense of just how crappy the hand he's been dealt is when a decent-looking actor is playing him. Just saying.

I do love Tyrion, but then, my favourite characters usually tend to be the ones who get the best lines, and Tyrion gets the best lines by far. Maybe arrogant, snarky types are more fun to write?

Edited by Blue32, Jun 7, 2011 @ 8:31 PM.

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#11

Polar7

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Posted Jun 7, 2011 @ 8:23 PM

Dinklage is great. It's got to be easier though when the part is written to be so likeable, and he gets the best lines! He's the classic underdog. And he's one of the few characters that seems to have genuine compassion for the downtrodden.
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#12

fallingfortruth

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Posted Jun 8, 2011 @ 7:52 AM

The thing is, I think that GRRM grossly overplayed Tyrion's much-mentioned hideousness in the books. Tyrion is a dwarf, he doesn't NEED to be literally hideous for everyone around him to think of him that way, or for him to have internalized that belief. The scene with him and Tywin pretty much nailed the fact that Tyrion has lived his entire life painfully aware of the multitude of ways that he's never going to "measure up."

It also makes it more visually striking, because PD looks SO MUCH like Lena and NCW that it's easy to believe that if it weren't for the vagaries of genetics Tyrion could easily have grown up to be one of the disgustingly attractive, disgustingly arrogant pains in the asses that his siblings are, and that it's largely his condition that gave him the distance to avoid that fate.
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#13

halfwaygone

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Posted Jun 8, 2011 @ 8:29 AM

The thing is, I think that GRRM grossly overplayed Tyrion's much-mentioned hideousness in the books.


Dear God, yes. It got so tedious. If the books run too long, he could certainly edit some of that stuff out. (Or the 1000 descriptions of how fat Sam is.) The passages on Tyrion's hideousness are overkill. We got it at "he's a dwarf."

And I like the casting of Dinklage a lot.

Edited by halfwaygone, Jun 8, 2011 @ 8:31 AM.

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#14

TudorQueen

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Posted Jun 8, 2011 @ 11:35 AM

Evidently, he was GRRM's own dream casting for the role.

I have a friend who's read the books and has vowed not to spoil me, but she did mention that the books could have been greatly shortened simply by omitting most of the mentions of Tyrion's "Waddle". Again, we get it, he's a dwarf. Moving on...

One thing I noticed during the scene with Tywin is how much younger Tyrion seemed in his father's presence.
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#15

Khellus

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Posted Jun 8, 2011 @ 12:09 PM

The thing is, I think that GRRM grossly overplayed Tyrion's much-mentioned hideousness in the books. Tyrion is a dwarf, he doesn't NEED to be literally hideous for everyone around him to think of him that way, or for him to have internalized that belief. The scene with him and Tywin pretty much nailed the fact that Tyrion has lived his entire life painfully aware of the multitude of ways that he's never going to "measure up."


Tbf, the only person who ever thinks Tyrion is hideous is Tyrion, who has... let's call them "issues" with his personal appearance. Oh and Sansa, but:

At that point half his face his burned and he's also got no nose, so let's be reasonable here.

Tyrion is probably the most badass of the Lannister children since Jaime is too much of a teenager and Cersei is, well, Cersei. That comes across really well in the show, and Peter Dinklage is doing a brilliant job of portraying that.
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#16

Danny Franks

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Posted Jun 11, 2011 @ 7:02 AM

Tbf, the only person who ever thinks Tyrion is hideous is Tyrion, who has... let's call them "issues" with his personal appearance. Oh and Sansa, but:


I think Cersei does as well, but her view of him is so tainted by her own personal BS that he could look just like Jaime, and she'd still probably think he was hideous.

But yes, I agree that the supposed ugliness of Tyrion comes from his otherness, the fact that he's a dwarf, more than anything else. He doesn't look like a man should, therefore he's unattractive. That seems to have been downplayed so far, for whatever reason, so to me TV Tyrion appears to be comfortable with who he is. We'll have to see if that changes as we learn more about him.

One thing I noticed during the scene with Tywin is how much younger Tyrion seemed in his father's presence.


So did Jaime. I'm willing to bet that Tywin Lannister makes everyone around him feel young and inexperienced. Especially his children. I can't wait to see him and Cersei in a scene together, to see what effect he has on her.
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#17

halfwaygone

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Posted Jun 11, 2011 @ 8:45 AM

so to me TV Tyrion appears to be comfortable with who he is. We'll have to see if that changes as we learn more about him.


You know, all that bluster to Jon Snow about owning what makes you broken so nobody can hurt you with it is all I see there. Not truly being comfortable with himself but accepting he never will well enough -- and that's totally how I saw Tyrion all along.

And, in his father's tent, he looked very much ashamed/apologetic for being a dwarf to me.
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#18

LargeRedHerring

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Posted Jun 12, 2011 @ 1:41 AM

Normally, I don't care when film or book adaptations cast actors or actresses who are better looking than the characters are supposed to be--except maybe all the smoking hot Rochesters in Jane Eyre adaptations over the years (I rolled my eyes so hard when Michael Fassbender was cast in the latest iteration)--but with Tyrion, casting a decent-looking actor really, really fucks with the characterization. Tyrion is supposed to be hideous. And when you're not only a dwarf, but a hideous dwarf, and that tends to dictate much of the treatment you get (rather than your intelligence or your knowledge or your capabilities) it tends to mess with your head.

Tyrion's tendency towards smart remarks and bitchy takedowns seems less awesome when you realize that it's largely a coping mechanism to deal with the hand he's been dealt, and it's hard to get a sense of just how crappy the hand he's been dealt is when a decent-looking actor is playing him. Just saying.


The thing is, I think that GRRM grossly overplayed Tyrion's much-mentioned hideousness in the books. Tyrion is a dwarf, he doesn't NEED to be literally hideous for everyone around him to think of him that way, or for him to have internalized that belief.


When I watched the first episode, my brother (who has read the books) made a comment about Tyrion's appearance, and I wondered if the books described him as hideous based solely on his dwarfism, which would be enough to be considered hideous in a medieval world. Do we get an objective description of Tyrion as hideous or do we hear him described that way by other characters? Dwarfism is something that is not that common and, as Tyrion himself said, peasant children with such deformity would be left out in the woods to die. It's something that isn't encountered everyday, making it all the more strange and abnormal to the average person. And Tyrion isn't just any dwarf, he's the Queen's brother, son of one of the most powerful houses in Westeros, the "Imp", who people have heard about far and wide. I'm sure his freakish appearance has been talked about and exaggerated throughout the seven kingdoms.

Tbf, the only person who ever thinks Tyrion is hideous is Tyrion, who has... let's call them "issues" with his personal appearance.


It would not surprise me that he would think of himself that way, so I wonder if the descriptions of Tyrion as hideous are the ones from his own point of view.
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#19

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Posted Jun 12, 2011 @ 5:01 AM

(We're getting dangerously into book territory here, although granted it's stuff that isn't spoilers, lets make sure we don't spoil anything about Tyrion that watchers wouldn't know)

Dwarfism is something that is not that common and, as Tyrion himself said, peasant children with such deformity would be left out in the woods to die.


This. Tyrion is unattractive, in Westeros, because he's a dwarf. Whether he's good looking for a dwarf or not is pretty much a moot consideration.

Anyway, if you DO want an uglier Tyrion, you're left with two choices:

A) Cast someone who's not Peter Dinklage. And can pull off the heavy acting required. With tons of charisma. And is short. And that's just not gonna happen.
B) Put Peter Dinklage in a bunch of uglifying makeup, which'll constrict or obstruct his facial emotiveness. Plus is a pain in the ass, and costs lots of money.

Personally I'd prefer to have a good-looking actor who can convincingly convey being 'ugly' in his society (even if he is good looking) vs. an actor who really is ugly, but can't convince you that it means anything.
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#20

halfwaygone

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Posted Jun 12, 2011 @ 8:32 AM

Do we get an objective description of Tyrion as hideous or do we hear him described that way by other characters? Dwarfism is something that is not that common and, as Tyrion himself said, peasant children with such deformity would be left out in the woods to die. It\'s something that isn\'t encountered everyday, making it all the more strange and abnormal to the average person.


No descriptions in the book are ever objective, FTR. They are all character POVs. There is ONE other instance I can think of where another character (Sansa) thinks in depth of his physical hideousness. However, it could easily be biased as well and there are other potential factors at that particular point in time.

But yes, most of the Tyrion Is Hideous stuff comes from him being a dwarf. GRRM also describes his twisted legs and dwarf waddle in depth all the time, but GRRM has these writing tics: Sam's fatness, Tyrion's walk hideousness, Ayra biting her lip, etc. So, I toss it off to part of that, really, and it's fine the series not emphasize these things quite the same way (though obviously Tyrion still has to be a dwarf, Sam still has to be fat, Ayra still has to have lips, etc, for the stories to work). Personally, I think Peter Dinklage is killing the part, and I’m fine with him being as attractive as he is because the big issue is that he’s different in a way that Westerosi or any Middle Ages type civilization would potentially see as “cursed" and "grotesque." It's more believable he's related to Jaime and Cersei this way, too.

Edited by halfwaygone, Jun 12, 2011 @ 8:39 AM.

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#21

LargeRedHerring

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 3:28 PM

From the Jaime Lannister thread:

This is the love the Lannister boys are allowed: Jaime has his glory and Tyrion literally purchases his.


I'm sure the lesson Tyrion learned from his experience being "married" was that the love of a whore was the only kind he was going to get.
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#22

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 5:29 PM

From the episode 8 thread-

One of the things I liked about the Shae exposition is that it shows that Tyrion was not always the smart aleck we see in front of us. Once upon a time he was a young man who didn't like being different, and was shy, unsure and jealous of his handsome brother Jamie's skill with women. IMO the reason Jamie staged the whole thing was because he wanted to give Tyrion a chance to play "hero" and to be wanted. The reason he did not take him to a whore house was because all that meant was that no woman would have sex with him without being paid. Jaime wanted him to think a woman wanted him for his attributes- if not his physical ones then his moral ones (saving her).

But yes, Shae was spot on, a woman that was almost raped is not going to invite a man to her bed two hours later. (taking this to the Tyrion thread).......

ETA- The Septon sobered up and told Tywin. Well I cannot expect Tywin would have wanted some prostitute married to a Lannister, but why not let him keep her has a concubine........well I suppose because that might make him happy, and Twyin wants him lonely and miserable. Even thought Tyrion is a dwarf, he is a Lannister and quite funny. No doubt a woman would like to be his official mistress, so why doesn't he have one?

Also if they were married by a septon did they get an "annulment"(or the legal equivalent in Westeros?) Sorry for my ramblings....
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#23

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 6:36 PM

I am loving Tyrion to death. The series as a whole is a treasure and I like all of the actors, but Dinklage is amazing in a role he was born to play. And he is sexy! Day-um. In case you missed it, there is a small article on him in Rolling Stone called "Sexy Beast."

What I like the most about him is his love of life. He has troubles, but is too smart to give up worldly pleasures for martyrdom. My favorite line of the series so far was his response to the question "how would you like to die?".........."in my bed, at 80, with a belly full of wine and a girl's mouth round my c''k.". Love it!

As for Dinklage being too handsome, eh. I think being a dwarf would have been bad enough back then. And where are they going to find an actor who is not only a dwarf but has one green eye and one dark one? Yes, I started the books.
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#24

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 6:45 PM

I think part of the reason Tywin would not allow the marriage was because, if you remember "Lannisters don't act like fools." Tyrion was foolish enough to fall in love with a whore and ask for her hand in marriage, not being able to see that the whole thing was a sham. Sure, Tyrion was young and inexperienced and it's not surprising that he would fall head over heels for the first woman who treats him as desirable, but Lannisters are supposed to be ruled by their cunning and not by their emotions. They certainly don't run off and get drunk and marry prostitutes who they've only known for a day.
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#25

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 6:53 PM

I think part of the reason Tywin would not allow the marriage was because, if you remember "Lannisters don't act like fools." Tyrion was foolish enough to fall in love with a whore and ask for her hand in marriage, not being able to see that the whole thing was a sham. Sure, Tyrion was young and inexperienced and it's not surprising that he would fall head over heels for the first woman who treats him as desirable, but Lannisters are supposed to be ruled by their cunning and not by their emotions. They certainly don't run off and get drunk and marry prostitutes who they've only known for a day.


Not so sure about that. Her being a wheelwright's daughter would have been such an overwhelming reason to annual the marriage that the whore thing wouldn't have a chance to be a factor.
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#26

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 7:12 PM

I meant that it was a rash and foolish decision, and that Tyrion was foolish enough to be duped was more of an affront to the Lannister name than the fact that she was a whore.
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#27

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 7:21 PM

Haven't read enough of the books to know (I'm about 100 pages into the first), but I could see this as an idea of Jamie's that got out of control and Tywin just being a raging asshole. Sort of along the lines of this;

Jamie sets up this entire scenario so Tyrion can feel good about his first time and gain some confidence. Tyrion falls in love with the girl. The girl sees a chance to marry a very rich man and maybe she was taken with him. He can be charismatic when he wants and maybe she liked someone of his education and privilege acting like she hung the moon. Anyway they get married and eventually Tywin finds out and before you can say abusive-displaced-anger-over-the-death-of-his-wife he decides to teach Tyrion a brutal lesson about taking anything from life without his permission.

Now if GOT law follows general European medieval law, Tywin would have cause to be upset. Lords and Ladies could not just run off and get married. Marriages were a matter of State and not love. They were pretty much always prearranged agreements and usually nobility had to have the King's permission to marry so it's possible Tyrion running off and eloping with a commoner could have had some serious consequences for the family, but Tywin could have probably paid everyone off and had the marriage annulled. Instead he makes Tyrion watch a gang rape to just drive home the whole 'you don't have anything until I give it to you. You exist at my pleasure' lesson of the day. This is how I imagine a lot of Tyrion's childhood was. It's a wonder he's not more fucked up
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#28

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 7:36 PM

Especially with Jaime being Jaime, I can easily see him figuring that the whore will go 'gosh sir, thanks for all that heroism, how about some nasty, dirty sex?' Then Tyrion wakes up in the morning, does some arm flexing in front of the bathroom mirror, and leaves feeling pretty satisfied with himself, never to see her again.

Jaime doesn't have a shred of self-doubt in him, plus it's not like he's got a lot of *ahem* dating experience. He probably never would have expected Tyrion to ever do something like marry her.
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#29

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 7:52 PM

Tywin could have probably paid everyone off and had the marriage annulled. Instead he makes Tyrion watch a gang rape to just drive home the whole 'you don't have anything until I give it to you. You exist at my pleasure' lesson of the day.


Wasn't she paid to let the soldiers have their way with her? To add insult to injury, Tyrion finds out that not only was she paid to sleep with him, but that she would have sex with the whole Lannister army if she were paid enough money. Tywin's rationale in making Tyrion watch was probably something along the lines of showing him that he was an idiot to believe that the woman ever cared about him in the first place.
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#30

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Posted Jun 14, 2011 @ 7:58 PM

I wasn't sure. It could have been that she willing did the entire guard for money but I could also see it just being straight up rape with coins being thrown at the poor girl for payment. Who knows? Either way, Tywin is a pretty scary motherfucker when you make him mad.
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