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Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister: The Things He Does for Love


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#271

Hecate7

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 7:26 PM

Me, too, JolenBrown! I think Jaime's not that hard to sympathize with.

To be honest, it's not the fact Jamie threw a boy about his son's age through a window, but the fact that he actually is in love with his sister what bothers me the most about the character.

*ETA: The fact that his sister is Cercei only adds a new level of messed-up to the whole thing as I see it.


I can't blame him for being in love with Cersei--he can't see into her head, so he doesn't know what a creep she really is. He thinks she's the other half of himself.

Given that they are Lannisters, I really don't blame them for the twincest. Who else is worthy of either of them, in terms of high birth, good looks, and wealth? Who else would understand either of them--what it's like to have Tywin for a father or Tyrion for a brother, to have lost their mother when they were old enough to remember her and young enough to need her? A Targaryen, perhaps, but they're all gone.

Who but each other can they trust? I really can't hold that part against either one of them. They probably feel as if they are a completely different species of human from the others they meet, in the first place. They were raised that way.

I do hold the attempted murder of Bran against him, but I remind myself that even Ned Stark might have done the same, if the alternative was to allow people to scald, flay, draw, and quarter all of the Stark children.

I agree that if Cersei hadn't been freaking out, and Jaime had taken a little more time to consider it, he probably wouldn't have pushed Bran--I think that was his soldier's reflexes at work. Then again, maybe he did consider all the possible scenarios, dismissed the ones in which Bran didn't talk as just too far-fetched, and pushed him after all.
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#272

agora

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Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 12:24 AM

I can't blame him for being in love with Cersei--he can't see into her head, so he doesn't know what a creep she really is. He thinks she's the other half of himself.

It's not that, but the whole "Shame, she would've been the perfect match for him if they weren't siblin...wow there!" angle what really bothered me.

I believe its one thing to see unresolved sexual tension in characters that were supposed to be siblings and another, entirely different, to see actually resolved tension between twins. It doesn't make Jaime any less sympathetic to me, but it does somewhat ruin him as a man in my eyes. Even if he's hopelessly in love with his twin sister.

Edited by agora, Apr 18, 2012 @ 12:28 AM.

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#273

bluvelvet

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 7:39 PM

I had to come to this threat to say I miss Jaime Lannister! I hope he pops up in the next episode.
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#274

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 7:44 PM

I had to come to this threat to say I miss Jaime Lannister! I hope he pops up in the next episode.


I miss him too, it's been too long. My unsullied friend asked the other day whether NCW was still on the show. Sigh.
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#275

Chained Melody

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 8:04 PM

As much as I am enjoying the second season, I do really wish we had more Jaime scenes! NCW's new movie, Headhunters, is opening here in a few weeks, so hopefully will get my NCW fix from that. :)
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#276

OakGoblinfly

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Posted May 4, 2012 @ 1:35 PM

I had to come to this threat to say I miss Jaime Lannister! I hope he pops up in the next episode.


Agreed.

I knew this was going to be a difficult season for Jaime as he is missing a lot from book two and most of his action happens "off-page".
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#277

dcs72

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Posted May 4, 2012 @ 2:26 PM

The way it's going, the next GOT-related cartoon should feature Jaime's face on a milk carton.
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#278

cyberducks

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Posted May 4, 2012 @ 10:23 PM

A little something to tide us over

Love the beard on both NCW and Jaime.
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#279

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 12:07 AM

Thanks for that cyberducks. One thing though, it bugs me that Jaime isn't as blond as last season. It was such a big thing in the books that the Lannisters are all "golden" and was more so last season. Don't get me wrong, he's just as good looking, but it's a big family identifier, and a contrast to the Baratheon, Tullys, and Starks. Oh well, maybe he's not getting enough sun, despite living outdoors in a cage for this season so far.
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#280

cyberducks

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 1:00 AM

Thanks for that cyberducks. One thing though, it bugs me that Jaime isn't as blond as last season. It was such a big thing in the books that the Lannisters are all "golden" and was more so last season. Don't get me wrong, he's just as good looking, but it's a big family identifier, and a contrast to the Baratheon, Tullys, and Starks. Oh well, maybe he's not getting enough sun, despite living outdoors in a cage for this season so fa


I think the reason Jaime's hair this season is darker is because as a chained up prisoner he hasn't been able to wash it and unwashed light colored hair will look darker. And in real life NCW isn't light blond anyway and his hair was most likely artificially lightened during the first season. In the books Jaime has long golden blond hair and personally I am glad that TPTB let Nikolaj keep his own shorter hair and didn't have him bewigged like Lena Headey's Cersei.

Just imagine the critters that must be living in Jaime's hair by now...and other sanitary conditions he has to deal with, hee. GRRM goes into a lot of detail of that in the books, shudders.

Edited by cyberducks, May 5, 2012 @ 1:04 AM.

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#281

cyberducks

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 5:58 PM

Bump! NCW interview about an upcoming episode and his character in general. Spoilery for the unsullied.

He understands Jaime so well.
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#282

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Posted May 13, 2012 @ 9:14 PM

Oh, I did so miss him. I know he's not a sociopath (he really truly loves his sister and I think he loves Tyrion in his own way), but his deep cynicism is so freeing! A man who has nothing to lose will always make a fantastic character. And he had just the right scorn for Brienne.

There are enough characters that wouldn't want him all the time, but I really would like him to have at least three juicy scenes. I would gladly cut Jon Snow's scenes in half.
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#283

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 10:31 AM

He was very entertaining and so good to have him back. I loved his monologue about Aerys and how vows can conflcit with one another. He has never even tried to defend what he did (which HBO released and thus deemed non-spoilery information tells us happened at the same time as the Lannisters turning against Aerys after sitting out the entire course of the war, waiting until the rebels had won and were on their way) and so invites the scorn for what he did, but you could feel his bitterness that he felt he was in an impossible situation.

He's a bastard who will do anything (up to and including trying to kill a child) to achieve an end, but he's not a sadist at least, and his sheer emotion when telling such tales show that it is not as simple as it might appear, he didn't just decide to be a villain or something, but that it was a hard thing for him to do even.
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#284

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 10:38 AM

Benioff and Weiss ruined show Jaime for me by making him a calculating psychopath and killer of his own kin - something GRRM never wrote him as in the books. I was so pissed about this last night and I am still very sad this morning.
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#285

Palpie

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 10:59 AM

I'd hardly call killing Alton kin-slaying. He was a very distant cousin from a minor branch of the house. He even specifically differentiated between his family and The Lannisters. If you've read Jordan's Wheel of Time,
Spoiler
Jaime wouldn't kill a 'Lannister of The Rock', but some minor Lannister he couldn't ever remember meeting is nothing to him.
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#286

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 11:00 AM

Is Alton dead? I know he was very badly hit up, but I wasn't certain (people can survive surprising things on TV Edit: yeah, it should have killed him given what we saw, but sometimes directors go a bit nuts without meaning too) and may have missed dialogue that confirmed it. I had assumed he lived *shrugs*.

I do think it would be a mistake if he killed Alton, mostly because though he did not remember the lad, he was family, and the Lannisters have been all about family.

Edited by kieran555, May 14, 2012 @ 11:15 AM.

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#287

Sweeney555

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 11:10 AM

Is Alton dead? I know he was very badly hit up, but I wasn't certain (people can survive surprising things on TV) and may have missed dialogue that confirmed it. I had assumed he lived *shrugs*.


Given the way Jamie smashed his head into jelly with his manacled hands, I think poor Alton was toast.

I haven't rewatched, but I don't think there was dialogue to confirm it, as all the focus was on the fact that Jamie had killed the Karstark boy, and that the Karstarks wanted his head for it. Now.
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#288

poliwonk

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 11:38 AM

I think Alton may in fact be dead - though that would make me sad as the actor who plays him also played Lyle in Stephen Fry's Kingdom (if you haven't seen it - go now, stream it on Netflix, good stuff). As for Jaime, I think he's so desperate that whether it was kinslaying or not, doesn't much matter to him. He wanted out, Alton was a convenient vehicle for getting out. I think if any Lannisters asked, he'd probably blame it on the Starks, and there would be no one to gainsay him.
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#289

agora

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 1:59 PM

Is Alton dead?

As much as the guard, in my opinion. Jaime attacked him as viciously as he attacked Bran last season.
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#290

kieran555

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 2:03 PM

As much as the guard, in my opinion. Jaime attacked him as viciously as he attacked Bran last season.

Oh that's alright then, as Bran is fine. No, on rewatch I do think the guys dead and if he is not then the director screwed up letting it be filmed that way. A shame.
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#291

Palpie

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 2:42 PM

I think since Jaime said Alton had to die, he intended to kill him. And if there's one thing Jaime is proficient at, it is killing. Though, the way Karstark just rushed in alone I think Jamie could have just told Alton to fake being sick and he'd have been able to escape. Heck Alton was such a fanboy, I'm sure he'd have been glad to stay behind so as not to slow Jaime down. But a ruse like that would be more a Tyrion ploy, Jaime's more direct.
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#292

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 4:50 PM

The thing I find oddly compelling about Jaime is his ability to compartmentalize. He did it last season too with Ned's man, Jory. He treated Jory as a peer, they exchanged battle stories and found common ground but, when it was time for battle, Jaime didn't hesitate and Jory was dead. Poor Alton came to a similiar end. Jaime clearly had no idea who the guy was, couldn't even locate him on the family tree but he still treated him with respect, trading stories and laughing. Jaime even seemed to forget where he was for a moment, relieving happier days with Ser Barristan Selmy. Then it was probably time for the guard to come back around so Alton's time was up and, again, Jaime didn't hesitate. He knew the guard wouldn't fall for anything half-assed so he went all in. Alton never had a chance and Jaime must have been a really compliant prisoner because the Karstark guard turned his back on him. That's something I'll take away from the show: never turn your back on Jaime Lannister.
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#293

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 6:36 PM

What I find weird is not that Jaime killed him - it was weird ass way to escape. If the Karstark guy was so easy to lure inside, I don't see the need to actually kill Alton - they could fake this fight, Alton could fake some kind of fit - and together, they could run away farther, if anything. And Karstark was just amazingly stupid. What was he thinking?
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#294

agora

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 6:38 PM

I think since Jaime said Alton had to die, he intended to kill him. And if there's one thing Jaime is proficient at, it is killing.

Just ask the last King before Robert, mad or not he probably never saw it coming.
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#295

Hecate7

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 7:42 PM

I didn't understand why Jaime had to kill anyone to escape. That whole scene wasn't right, to me. I thought Jaime was chained to that pole and couldn't really move that much, so it shocked me when he did move. I'm not sure how he managed to clobber Alton and then make a break for it. It was very dramatic the way he was so charming and honest, right up until "you have to die," and then he killed him. It really feeds a perception of Jaime as a complete sociopath.

This kind of ruins Show Jaime for me, too. This didn't happen in the books. Jaime wouldn't have killed even a very distant cousin. It counts. And Jaime does show regret over what he did to Bran. He doesn't wallow in remorse or shame, but he's regretful about it from the start. [s]He tells Cersei he's never been ashamed of their love, but of the things he's done to keep it a secret, like the Stark boy. She throws it back at him that she never told him to do that, but from the way she was carrying on at the time it seemed pretty clear what she wanted Jaime to do.[/s]

I did, however, love his monologue to Catelyn about moral ambiguities and how you can't keep all of your vows all the time, and still do what is ultimately right, because the vows all contradict each other. It was spot on. He's still trying to goad Catelyn into killing him, apparently, but that also makes no sense, because the cat's out of the bag where Cersei and the kids are concerned.
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#296

bluvelvet

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 3:25 PM

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Jaime has never been with another woman except Cersei. I mean this is Westeros where whoring around seems to be a very common thing and yet uber hot Jaime Lannister never "sew his wild oats".

In regard to the show I am curious as to when the affair started, did it start after Cersei was married to Robert, did she turn to Jaime after Robert called her Lyanna. It sounds like Cersei was enamored of Robert when she initially married him based on what she told Ned last season. Or was Cersei already sleeping with Jaime when she got married.

Edited by bluvelvet, May 16, 2012 @ 3:31 PM.

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#297

scarlett45

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 3:43 PM

(No Spoliers) it seems to me that such a relationship probably started as play as children and progressed into a sexual relationship at puberty. Having a normal platonic (but close) relationship with your sibling all of your childhood and adolescence, and then BOOM one day having sex seems unlikely to me.

Spoiler

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#298

cyberducks

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 5:15 PM

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Jaime has never been with another woman except Cersei. I mean this is Westeros where whoring around seems to be a very common thing and yet uber hot Jaime Lannister never "sew his wild oats".


You are not the only one, I have always found it very striking and singular in the books that in this society where powerful men whore around and even good ol' sainted Ned seems to have fucked around on Cat, Jaime Lannister is monogamous. There really are no men like him, ha, ha. In the books he has err...physical responses to other women
Spoiler
, but he doesn't act on it when lil' Jaime stands to attention for anyone but Cersei. And even
Spoiler

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#299

scarlett45

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 5:24 PM

You are not the only one, I have always found it very striking and singular in the books that in this society where powerful men whore around and even good ol' sainted Ned seems to have fucked around on Cat, Jaime Lannister is monogamous. There really are no men like him, ha, ha. In the books he has err...physical responses to other women

Spoiler
, but he doesn't act on it when lil' Jaime stands to attention for anyone but Cersei. And even
Spoiler

Spoiler
I see Jaime as a.....a conundrum of masculinity. Deep down inside he is actually quite romantic in a way you'd expect of a woman. He believes that his love for Cersei is THE most important thing ever. Screw social taboos, screw cuckholding the king, life is he and Cersei. Granted he does have affection for Tyrion and personal self esteem as a fighter but that's it. CERSEI is the be all and end all of everything. Why is that so? I know she's his twin but goodness....
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#300

joshatreides

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Posted May 17, 2012 @ 11:57 PM

Judging on the bad reaction Alton's death has received from the Book-Readers, how much do you want to make a bet that at some point it will be acknowledged? My reading was it was an instinctual moment and Jaime took it. He never really thought about the consequences. Also, it's a moment of sudden violence that is the staple of many an HBO series. On a show like Rome or Deadwood this act could be totally overlooked, but because it is performed by a beloved character on a series based on books beloved by many people, thinking it wouldn't matter just to have this bloody scene for violence's sake, was apparently, an epic fail. Personally, I don't see how killing Alton changes Jaime's character in any way, but it's clear now that D & D have grossly underestimated the veracity of the book fans. Details like Renly's peach, or Hotpie's battle cry, Ros or the Blackfish or Alton-gate are things that are pissing off the uber-fans... But I feel bad for people who say Jaime is ruined in the show because of this one act. Truly you could not get a better Jaime Lannister than NCW. I hope those disappointed by this turn of events can appreciate the possible awesomeness that Waldau may deliver and soldier on despite their prejudices.

Edited by joshatreides, May 17, 2012 @ 11:59 PM.

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