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Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister: The Things He Does for Love


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#1

anothermi

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Posted May 27, 2011 @ 5:58 PM

ItIsKnown:

So in everyone's opinion, which is Jaime?
Despicable villain, or tragic anti-hero?
Or maybe the question to ask is : Which is Jaime on the way to becoming?

That provocative question(s) has got a good discussion going in the Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread. I'd like to also hear the thoughts of those who aren't unspoiled as well.

HOWEVER, as usual, the Mod's Rules on spoilers still apply to discussion on this thread.

Also, as is my habit, I am posting links to some of the discussion in the Unspoiled thread that motivated me to start this thread for Jaime. There is a lot more sprinkled through that thread, these are just some that are answers to the above question.

Post: #666 to #672 / #684 to #687 / #694 to #707 (more or less) plus related posts at least up to #716.

The following quote is from ItIsKnown: (post #692) which expresses my current opinion on Jaime close enough that I don't see the need to paraphrase:

Jaime's choice of lover clearly shows his deep narcissism. His pioneer work in finding new depths of self obsession is behind that particular choice. Also, hes got this amazing gift of compartmentalizing feelings. In the scene where he talks to Jory, he switches between unfeeling jackass to jealous, bitter lover to reminiscing comrade-in-arms to unfeeling jackass. Then within a week, he shoes a dagger through Jory's eye without any remorse whatsoever. As shimpy says, his mind does not hesitate in seeking Ned's approval even though he knows he's tried to kill Ned's ten year old son.

Are those personality traits enough to call the man evil? I'm not sure what the medical implications are of sociopathy so I'm going to avoid using that term. Is he evil? As far as we know, he didn't force himself on Cersei. That relationship was formed out of mutual misery and sympathy and shared narcissism. It's creepy, twisted, perverted. But is it evil? Also, however abhorent shoving a ten year old may be, it was motivated by love (twisted love is still love). That act was evil. But is it enough to make the man beyond redemption? I, personally, do think there is hope for him yet. He is not black, just (very) dark gray.

I don't doubt my opinion could change as the series goes on. ;-)

ETA: A longish discussion on Jaime that happened in the general Lannister Thread. Starts at post #92 and continues to post #104 (with only a couple of short posts not on topic).

Edited by anothermi, May 28, 2011 @ 10:16 AM.

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#2

SimplyS

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Posted May 27, 2011 @ 6:48 PM

A Jaime topic! All well and good. The man's much healthier separated from Cersei.

He's probably my favorite of the characters in the series (in terms of simply being interesting to read about, his PoV chapters are extremely fun), so I can't wax too much on Jaime without getting into territory that's spoilery. I will say NCW is absolutely rocking his performance. Jaime doesn't do much that isn't abjectly horrible at this point in the series, what with the child-pushing and twincesting, but he's really playing the dimensions of the character so that even when he's stabbing Jory in the eye he doesn't seem abjectly evil. Plus, the actor seems to be having a blast. I liked him in 'New Amsterdam,' though I didn't care for the show itself, and I hope this gets him some more exposure.

I do find it funny that, of Team Incest, Jaime seems generally better-liked than Cersei from the audience so far, even though he's actively done awful things rather than more passively manipulated them into place. I suspect active characters are just more fun than passive ones, and being fun and interesting will earn you love when while shoving 10-year-olds.
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#3

thuganomics85

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Posted May 27, 2011 @ 7:41 PM

I do find it funny that, of Team Incest, Jaime seems generally better-liked than Cersei from the audience so far, even though he's actively done awful things rather than more passively manipulated them into place. I suspect active characters are just more fun than passive ones, and being fun and interesting will earn you love when while shoving 10-year-olds.


Hee! I'll shamefully admit that part of my reasonings is that Jaime at least treats Tyrion (my favorite character) with some decency, while Ceresi more or less treats him like crap. I know it's weird and maybe wrong, but that's how I feel. Like when Tyrion was captured, I really felt like Jaime was mad and upset that it was his brother that was captured and was concern about Tyrion as a person/his brother, while with Ceresi, I personally thought that she was mad that someone would hurt the Lannister "name."

Overall, I'm finding Jaime to be one of the most fascinating characters on this show. He really has done some of the worst things on this show, but I still find myself liking him at times. And while the writing and development is definably a good amount of it, I really have to give credit to Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, because I think he is playing the character perfectly. He gives Jaime a perfect amount of arrogance, smugness, and other negative traits, but he can be charming, funny, and every now and then, he gives me the sense that somewhere in there, Jaime might have some decency in him.... you know, when he isn't shoving kids out windows, stabbing guys in the eyes, getting in dick-measuring contests with Ned, and occasionally having sexy time with his twin sister!

I'm still reading the first book, so I'm unspoiled, so I really hope we get to see more of him in future books/seasons.
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#4

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Posted May 27, 2011 @ 11:12 PM

Jaime is always a big topic of conversation, especially for first-time readers of the books.

Since the TV series isn't limited by PoV, the audience has been able to get a few more hints of his complexity then you really ever do in the first book. For book readers, most of what we know about Jaime comes from either A) Random people going 'holy crap, it's the kingslayer, that guy's a badass! or B) Ned's PoV. And even if you haven't read the books, you can probably guess what Ned's PoV is like: very morally black and white, duty-bound, loyal to his men and family but rather judgmental of anyone outside of it. And even when Ned's PoV isn't telling you how dishonorable Jaime is, all you ever see Jaime do is tossing children off towers, killing Ned's men, or schtooping his sister. NOT a great first impression.

Not specific spoilers, but getting into the book territory - In later books Jaime himself becomes a PoV character, who pretty much shocks everyone by how darned -likeable- he is.

Genuine spoilers on Jaime's personality - Basically Jaime's entire life he's wanted to be the brave knight in shining armor, all of his heroes growing up were legendary knights and/or members of the Kingsguard. He has essentially no personal ambition except wanting to be honorable and knightly and fight for truth, justice, and the American Way. And then he grew up and life has basically conspired to put him into one situation after another where he has to choose between his own honor and protecting others (Cersei, but others as well). And as honorable as he is, he refuses to put his personal honor before defending his family and those he loves.
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#5

SimplyS

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 1:32 AM

I'll shamefully admit that part of my reasonings is that Jaime at least treats Tyrion (my favorite character) with some decency, while Ceresi more or less treats him like crap.


Jaime and Tyrion's relationship is a blessedly simple and normal one, and it does do a lot to earn Jaime good will. He's Tyrion's big brother. If you screw with Tyrion, he beats you up (admittedly, this is harder to admire when it involves the aforementioned eye-stabbing). If Tyrion doesn't hate him, there's reason to think he can't be entirely evil. It's another relationship that makes me regret how spread out the plot threads are, since we've not gotten to see them interact much. Peter Dinklage and NCW are two of the series' strongest performers in terms of how they inhabit their characters, and I wish they got to play off each other more.

Still bummed Lysa didn't give in to Tyrion's request and send for Jaime to be his champion in the trial by combat. As impossible as it would have been for dozens of plot reasons, I suspect his reaction to Mount Crazy would have been Win.

Sad Doctor: My shorthand for Jaime's personality is that he's basically a male Sansa, fifteen or so years of disillusionment later. In that he's at heart a romantic in a world that crushes and punishes romanticism. Which makes me by turns hopeful and sad about where Sansa will go when her illusions are finally entirely shattered.
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#6

cyberducks

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 2:19 AM

Well, I am glad we finally have a Jaime thread. He and Tyrion are my favorite characters from the books. I love their relationship and the regard and respect Jaime has for Tyrion. I love Jaime, but it was not love at first sight, hee. I started admiring him during the dungeon scene with Cat in the second book. I fell in love with Jaime during ASOS. What I love most about Jaime is all spoilers - his bluntness, his honesty, including his honesty about his own flaws, his empathy, his courage, his perception of other people which is often right on the money, his loyality to people once they have his regard (Brienne, Pia), his wit and his sarcasm.

And his chapters are such compelling reads.

I am also very happy with how Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is playing Jaime - perfect casting!

Edited by cyberducks, May 28, 2011 @ 2:32 AM.

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#7

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 11:41 AM

I agree with you Simply S, I think Sansa is going to have to do her own Kingslaying of sorts to finish her character act. I also think other than Tyrion just being a generally good guy he didn't want to force himself on Sansa because he kinda saw his brother in her.
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#8

cyberducks

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 12:19 PM

Are you guys familiar with the art Michael Komarck has done of ASOIAF characters? Here's Jaime Lannister. And Jaime on the Iron Throne. I think Komarck really conveys Jaime's arrogance well and his other main character portraits are great too.

Edited by cyberducks, May 28, 2011 @ 12:25 PM.

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#9

FoolishWanderer

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Posted May 28, 2011 @ 8:08 PM

When they were doing those promo pics of people on the Iron Throne, they really missed a chance to recreate that shot. Maybe in the future.
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#10

Sad Doctor

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 12:44 AM

What I love most about Jaime is all spoilers - his bluntness, his honesty, including his honesty about his own flaws, his empathy, his courage, his perception of other people which is often right on the money, his loyality to people once they have his regard (Brienne, Pia), his wit and his sarcasm.


Very well said. The thing that's interesting about Jaime is, out of ANY of the PoV characters, he's by far the most honest about the world. Some characters have obvious blind spots - even Tyrion, as smart as he is on most issues, completely loses objectivity on things closer to him. Even when Jaime's being foolish, in his head he knows it.
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#11

cyberducks

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 7:24 AM

Sad Doctor

The thing that's interesting about Jaime is, out of ANY of the PoV characters, he's by far the most honest about the world. Some characters have obvious blind spots - even Tyrion, as smart as he is on most issues, completely loses objectivity on things closer to him. Even when Jaime's being foolish, in his head he knows


Nods. That very much, and also, considering how we first meet him and what Martin chooses to show of him in the beginning, his perceptiveness of the world around him and the empathy he has for people, especially people that nobody else gives a rat's ass about (Pia, his squire, and Brienne of course) is absolutely thrilling and shocking to realize when reading his chapters for the first time. Pia is a good example of how confounding Jaime is - here is this girl, low born and promiscuous, an absolute nobody, but because she was kind to Jaime during his dark time at Harrenhall he not only remembers her when he sees her again, he takes her into his entourage and under his protection after Gregor Glegane beats the crap out of her and disfigures her. And then Jaime has her rapist, one of his own men, killed for her and gives her the rapist's head as a token of his regard. All of this for a girl he never even has sex with! Jaime just amazes me with the things he does on impulse - both good or bad impulse like the Bran defenestration. One thing is for sure, Jaime and Cersei, while twins and supposed to be so alike, are really not much alike at all once we really get to know both characters. Cersei has like no empathy and Jaime has so much of it.
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#12

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 10:04 AM

It seems to me that Jaime really is in love with Cersei, and even though that's twisted and wrong and sick and oh so narcissistic, it's also kind of gallant and moving, especially since I'm not sure she returns it - oh, I imagine she loves him, but 'in' love? I don't see her being capable of that.
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#13

swguardswoman

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 11:31 AM

Hey this seems like the right place for this, so here goes.

There's been lots of discussion about Jaime's fight with Ned at the end of episode 5, and most of it is about how Ned is too good of a fighter compared to the books and Jaime should have creamed him - so basically a discussion about how good each fighter was. The other part of the discussion has been about Jaime's intentions. Was he just trying to egg Ned into attacking so he'd have an excuse to kill him? Or was he serious when he told his guards to leave Ned alive?

One thing that I haven't seen suggested is this: what if this can all be explained by Jaime actually wanting to capture but not kill or injure Ned? In that case, it makes sense that Ned would have the upper hand in the fight, even if he was a much worse fighter. It's way harder to fight to disarm or disable someone than it is to fight to kill them - especially when fighting with broadswords. If you watch the fight carefully, mostly Jaime is deflecting Ned's blows, until they get their blades locked together (which is always a dangerous place to be in).

Then again in ep 7 when Jaime and Tywin are talking, it really seems as if Jaime is saying he would have killed Ned if the guard hadn't interfered. But honestly that would have put Tyrion in greater danger... Tywin might not care if Tyrion dies (good riddance, and a good excuse to make war), but Jaime does...

I do love the portrayal of Jaime in this show - the writers and the actor are doing a very nuanced job. They've managed to make him simultaneously unlikable to new viewers while preserving bits of his true self for the book readers to see. He's really is an arrogant preening asshole... And yet, you can see from his body language how this life in court with Cersei is just kiiiilling him... The flashes of genuine happiness we see with Jaime are all when he is talking or thinking about his past - when things were simpler and honor meant something. And then, how freeing it was in episode 5 to finally fight again....
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#14

TudorQueen

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 11:47 AM

That's a really good point, about court life killing him. First of all, he's a warrior, not a courtier, no matter how charming and handsome and elegant he may be - he's happiest when he's out there fighting. Funny how he and Robert had that in common but so completely hated each other (Jaime because Robert treated Cersei so badly, Robert because Jaime was a Lannister and, well, slew the previous king).

I think he meant it when he said Ned should be taken alive, and that's what stayed his hand from really cutting Ned down. I also think he got a special surge from fighting Ned one on one, because he really wanted to show Ned how good he is. I think he's wanted Ned Stark's respect from the beginning.
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#15

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 1:38 PM

One thing that I haven't seen suggested is this: what if this can all be explained by Jaime actually wanting to capture but not kill or injure Ned? In that case, it makes sense that Ned would have the upper hand in the fight, even if he was a much worse fighter. It's way harder to fight to disarm or disable someone than it is to fight to kill them - especially when fighting with broadswords. If you watch the fight carefully, mostly Jaime is deflecting Ned's blows, until they get their blades locked together (which is always a dangerous place to be in).


Do you have knowledge of sword fighting? Somebody in one of the other threads - sorry can't recall who it was - said it is impossible to hold back in a duel with real broad swords since they are so heavy and it's so easy to swing a killing blow even if you are not going all out. I know nothing about fighting with broad swords other than what I have seen in movies and some real life experience with fencing in university but it looked to me too like Ned was the one going all out and huffing and puffing, while Jaime was all ladidah and not even breathing heavily. Jaime did say he wanted Ned captured not killed - but maybe he got caught up in the thrill of the fight and wanted to kill him then? That would make sense since Jaime - as we have already seen - is a man of impulse.
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#16

anothermi

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Posted May 29, 2011 @ 2:08 PM

swguardswoman, I can see that you are new here, but you need to spoiler tag your references to Ep 7 until after it has aired tonight.
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#17

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 3:26 PM

In my Internet travels looking up stuff on Jaime I found this battle contest between fictional characters that took place last year, called Suvudu Cage Match and Jaime did pretty good in it, the only character that he went up against that I am familiar with is Hermione Granger. The cool thing is that GRRM wrote some Jaime and Tyrion for this Suvudu thing and of course I enjoyed anything new written about the Lannister brothers after such a long drought.

Jaime and Tyrion do the Suvudu thing.
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#18

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 6:49 PM

Ha he beat Cthulhu as in http://tvtropes.org/...PunchOutCthulhu

I still maintain that Jaime is the ultimate Spanner in the works for the whole tale.
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#19

Maximum Taco

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 7:10 PM

Ha he beat Cthulhu


Lol, did you read GRRM's rationale? Apparently Jaime kills all of Cthulhu's worshipers and the Dreamer in the Deeps just doesn't show up.

I'd still watch out for him though. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
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#20

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 7:20 PM

Lol, that's great. I love that face the GM writes his own little fan fiction style stories for fun. Wish more authors did that.

As for Jaime, holy cow Nick looked hot with his scruff last episode.
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#21

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 8:06 PM

Lol, that's great. I love that face the GM writes his own little fan fiction style stories for fun. Wish more authors did that.

unfortunately He still hates... ok doesn't approve of, Fanfiction.

One scene, but NCW still manages to convay Jaime perfectly. I recall liking New Amsterdam, now I can remember why
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#22

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 8:37 PM

Ah, man, Jaime made it all the way to the Suvudu finale, fighting one-handed and with only his clever brother to aid him (and sweet Cersei making bitchy remarks), only to be defeated by I don't know who that is - I cry foul!
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#23

Maximum Taco

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 9:36 PM

You are joking right cyberducks? You don't know Rand al'Thor (The Wheel of Time)? He also struck down Ser Gregor in the 2010 Championship.

I'm afraid Cage Match 2011 would also upset you. Brave Jon Snow fell to Vin (Mistborn) in the semifinals and fell again in the bronze medal match to Perrin Aybara (The Wheel of Time) to wind up 4th.

Edited by Maximum Taco, May 30, 2011 @ 9:39 PM.

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#24

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 10:28 PM

GRRM's characters don't actually have any special abilities beyond, at the most, extreme combat training (Jaime), so they're bound to get smoked by any character from an actual magical series/novel. Rand can essentially destroy the entire Seven Kingdoms if he really wants to.

Perrin vs Jon I suppose is closer, but all Vin has to do is rip Jon's sword away from him from like 100 feet away, then fling it back at him.
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#25

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 10:31 PM

No, Maximum Taco, I am not joking, I am not that well versed in the classic fantasy genre. I know ASOIAF, LOTR, the Harry Potter series and Joe Abercrombie, never read The Wheel Of Time.

Jon lost too, sigh. Someone eventually better kick this Rand al'Thor's ass, hee..

GRRM's characters don't actually have any special abilities beyond, at the most, extreme combat training (Jaime), so they're bound to get smoked by any character from an actual magical series/novel. Rand can essentially destroy the entire Seven Kingdoms if he really wants to.


So the odds are always against our guys...Though I am glad The Mountain Who Rides lost too - he gives me the creeps.

Edited by cyberducks, May 30, 2011 @ 10:37 PM.

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#26

Maximum Taco

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Posted May 30, 2011 @ 11:18 PM

No, Maximum Taco, I am not joking, I am not that well versed in the classic fantasy genre. I know ASOIAF, LOTR, the Harry Potter series and Joe Abercrombie, never read The Wheel Of Time.


Sorry, if I sounded stupid and jerky, I didn't mean to. I honestly wasn't sure if your tongue wasn't planted firmly in cheek and you were taking a somewhat deserved dig at the Wheel of Time (which believe me deserves some digs.)

So the odds are always against our guys...Though I am glad The Mountain Who Rides lost too - he gives me the creeps.


Yeah, Rand is exceptionally ridiculous when it comes to raw power. One of his many abilities allows him to erase something from existence including destroying past actions. If he used that on Jaime he could potentially erase Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. It's really not a fair fight.

Perrin vs Jon I suppose is closer, but all Vin has to do is rip Jon's sword away from him from like 100 feet away, then fling it back at him.


I may be wrong (I decided to hold off on rereading the WoT until all the books come out) but doesn't Perrin have the power to control wolves? So he could potentially turn Ghost against Jon? That'd be rough going for our Lord Snow.

Edited by Maximum Taco, May 30, 2011 @ 11:30 PM.

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#27

cyberducks

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Posted May 31, 2011 @ 5:23 PM

LOL at Jaime mugg - he looks pissy! Why is his name so often spelled wrong?
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#28

bluemeanies42

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Posted May 31, 2011 @ 5:37 PM

Because people keep converting Westerosi to English. I've seen Robb with one b and Jon with a h multiple times.

Me, being a soccer fan whose team (DC United) has a famous Bolivian player named Jaime Moreno I have a tendency to pronounce it in my head Hi-me at times and then think no, that's not a Spanish j to h. But I never get the spelling wrong.
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#29

cyberducks

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Posted Jun 1, 2011 @ 11:44 AM

Nikolaj Coster-Waldau interview about Jaime.
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#30

Danny Franks

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Posted Jun 1, 2011 @ 1:22 PM

Yeah, Rand is exceptionally ridiculous when it comes to raw power. One of his many abilities allows him to erase something from existence including destroying past actions. If he used that on Jaime he could potentially erase Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. It's really not a fair fight.


Too overpowered for any other fantasy hero, I'd say. I do like the Wheel of Time, and Rand as a hero. But he's suited to that world, given that it's just full of the most destructive magics there can be. Though it's not just Rand who can erase things from existence. Many other characters who use the One Power could do that, if they knew how.

A more fitting opponent for Jaime would be my all time favourite fantasy character, Fitzchivalry Farseer. A decent, not great, fighter, who has more determination and boneheaded stubbornness than anything else, and somehow always seems to just manage to survive whatever mess he's landed himself in. Plus, he has (had :o( ) a wolf of his own anyway, so would fit in with the ASOIAF lot.

Anyway, I find myself really liking Jaime, so far in this. It's a pretty odd thing, considering that the first thing of significance we see him do is attempt to murder an innocent ten year old boy. But it's a credit to the writing that the character has already risen above that, to an extent.
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