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Sansa Stark: Be Careful What You Ask For!


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#871

Luciaphile

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Posted Yesterday, 08:06 PM

Okay, I'm lost. You're saying that since gold isn't in their house colors, that means they have no money??? The Starks are one of the oldest houses in Westeros. I'm pretty sure they would have enough dragons or silver stags or whatever to pay for Sansa's return. The Lannisters and the Tyrells go into conspicuous consumption because they are new money comparatively. That doesn't make the Starks the equivalent of the Darling clan in Mayberry.

Stannis considers Robb to be a usurper so I'm not sure where you're getting this notion that Melisandre would think Sansa's blood would have any magical properties.
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#872

My Way

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Posted Yesterday, 08:11 PM

It secures allies.
 
Moreover, Sansa doesn't have "king's blood" as Stannis defines it, seeing as he doesn't think Robb is a king.

Yeah. Stannis thinks everyone else is a usurper. I don't think Sansas blood would count but that doesn't mean Melisandre would feel the same.

But stannis balked at killing Roberts bastard- I think he would push back harder for an innocent young woman. Stannis is a hard man, but he is not vicious or wantonly cruel.
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#873

skeeter22

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Posted Yesterday, 09:17 PM

If the Lannisters are out of power, Robb and the North have less of a reason to continue the rebellion. At that point, there is no reason for Robb not to bend the knee. Stannis may be rigid, but he would have been happy to negotiate a peace with Robb. He was willing to name Renly his heir over his own daughter in order to prevent a conflict between them.

Sansa would have been stupid to go with the Hound. She had every reason to believe that Stannis was winning, and he absolutely would have treated her better than the Lannisters. Cersei intended to have Sansa killed if the city fell, not to protect Sansa from rape, but because she's cruel and spiteful and knew Sansa's situation would improve substantially if Stannis won. The way Sansa was treated was not the norm for high born prisoners.

The Hound is clearly incapable of keeping himself safe and out of trouble. Imagine if he were dragging around Sansa? Cersei would send people after them and I don't think they'd have lasted a week.
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#874

Hecate7

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Posted Today, 01:10 AM

Skeeter22, Stannis and Robb already negotiated a peace. That talk failed. Things have only gotten worse since then. If Stannis would have been so happy to negotiate a peace with Robb, then why didn't he? I maintain that Stannis would NOT have been happy to negotiate a peace with the new King In The North, nor would Robb have been willing to agree to Stannis' terms.

 

If the Starks had the money to ransom Sansa, they'd have done it before Blackwater, when she was still single.

 

As for Robb not being any true king, there's a difference between magic, and legality. Of course Stannis considers Robb a rebel and a usurper, but Robb and his blood relations would still work just fine for the spell, on two counts.

 

1) The Starks are descended from the old kings of the North, and have lived in Winterfell since before Aegon the Conqueror. Therefore they all have the blood of kings, including Sansa.

 

2) Being crowned a king, ruling like a king, and sitting a throne, probably makes you a king for the purposes of the spell, even if you weren't born with the blood of kings. Robert Baratheon wasn't born a king, but Gendry was an acceptable sacrifice. So Sansa will do just fine, if he can get his hands on her.

 

Melisandre would be quick to seize on any viable subject for her spell, and quick to educate Stannis about the viability of a given subject. Sansa's viable.

 

Stannis wants to win. He was willing to murder his own little brother, and sacrifice his own nephew, to win. Burning the sister of a traitor probably wouldn't cost him any sleepless nights, especially if it ended the war and established him on the throne. We just saw him burn his brother-in-law, and that wasn't even with the goal of getting some dragons. He already had a chance to make nice with Robb Stark, and declined, even though it would have added the Northern Army to his.

 

Sansa would be away from Joffrey and Cersei, but Stannis would at minimum put her in a prison cell for her loyalty to Robb Stark. Selyse would try to convert her to the One True Faith, and burn her as a heretic if she refused, which she might. And Melisandre would see Sansa as a perfect spell ingredient, and work on Stannis until he agreed, assuming he didn't agree immediately. Her existence would not be noticeably more pleasant, and it would be a great deal shorter, at Dragonstone.


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#875

BookEater

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Posted Today, 06:00 AM

 

 If Stannis wants the charred, smoking ruin Winterfell has become, he doesn't need to marry anyone to anyone, to take it. He'll just take it and award it to a favorite, as Lord Tywin did with Harrenhal. Marrying a favorite to Sansa might corrupt him and give him ideas about Northern independence. Best to start with a clean slate in the North.

 

I think thats underestimating Sansa's worth, and the Northeners willingness to be ruled by a southener. If even Cersei, not the sharpest tool in the box, thinks that it can't be done- "The North is too big and too wild, it can never be held by an outsider." then I think Stannis would know that too.

 

From Stannis's point of view I think it's far more prudent to marry Sansa (or Arya) to one of his bannermen if Robb, or any of the male Stark heirs don't bend the knee. Which is exactly what the Lannisters did and what theTyrells wanted to do, they were looking to lock in a Stark marraige so once that once the males were out of the way they could bring the North back into the fold, and start again with the all important Stark bloodline.


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#876

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Posted Today, 08:06 AM

If the Starks had the money to ransom Sansa, they'd have done it before Blackwater, when she was still single.

I don’t think the Lannisters would ever have traded her for money. That’s not what they wanted from the Starks. I’m sure they have some money (or had), but the Lannisters are the richest and Tyrell’s second richest in the country so it’s always been kind of a moot point.

Stannis would at minimum put her in a prison cell for her loyalty to Robb Stark

Sansa was in KL the entire time Robb was in revolt. I don’t think Stannis would blame her for that.
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#877

Luciaphile

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Posted Today, 10:19 AM

Yeah, I'm really missing the piece where Stannis would blame her (at that point in the story) for being a hostage. She's a young maiden who is a prisoner in all but name. She has value as a hostage (and unless someone can point to conclusive textual evidence from the show to tell me the Starks are penniless, that is an argument I just cannot buy) and as a marriageable asset (Robb won't play ball? Marry her to a Baratheon bannerman; Robb will play ball? Marry her to a Baratheon bannerman to shore up the alliance. This is how these things work).

 

The Starks and their supporters are at war primarily with the Lannisters. If they're out of the equation with a victory at Blackwater, I would think that the need for them to be free and independent suddenly becomes less of a need and more of a starting point for negotiation and that if Robb indicated he would bend the knee, Stannis would be more likely to treat with him.

 

As for the supposed danger from the Lord of Light, Sansa has repeatedly been made to declare her father and brother as traitors,she'd probably be willing to convert to R'hllor if she knew that meant her continued survival.


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#878

Shimmergloom

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Posted Today, 01:12 PM

 

They're not noted for spending it. They're not noted for having it. Gold isn't even one of their house colors, the way it is for the Lannisters, Tyrells, and Baratheons. If they had the gold, they'd have ransomed Sansa before the Battle of the Whispering Woods even started.

 

I don't think this means anything.  The Stark's had nothing to bargain with before Whispering Woods.  The Lannister's had Ned, Sansa and they thought Arya as well.  Paying Gold ransom for Sansa or Arya was not going to work, because they still had Ned.

 

Then once that battle was over, Robb had Jaimie and multiple other Lannister cousins as hostages.  None of those were ransomed for gold either.  I mean if gold was the answer, then why did Robb not ransom those cousins that the Kar-stark's killed for either gold or for Sansa.  He couldn't trade Jamie, but surely the Lords of the North would have been open to him trading a Lannister cousin or 3 for Sansa/Arya(this is before Jamie kills his cousin and a Kar-Stark).

 

 

Stannis and the North are already enemies. He was unwilling to ally with his own brother against the common enemy, unless Renly bent the knee FIRST. He was unwilling to negotiate with or ally with the Starks, either, unless they agreed to bend the knee FIRST. Robb couldn't, which is why the three armies never united against the common enemy in the first place.

 

Robb was fighting Stannis and the Lannisters, both. Fighting one wasn't a reason to make a truce with the other. Tywin in fact didn't have anything to do with Ned's execution or the crippling of Bran, but Robb was going to take Casterly Rock and wipe out everyone there. Robb is no more concerned with which particular Lannister is to blame, than Cat is. The only Lannisters he might extend any sort of clemency to are Cersei, Tommen, and Myrcella, because they are underage and she is a woman. If it weren't for Melisandre, Stannis would follow those same rules, but now it's a given that Melisandre gets to decide these things, and she's in a hurry to do that spell.

 

If Stannis burnt Sansa alive, it would never affect Robb's attitude towards the Lannisters, and Stannis knows this. Nor would it appreciably affect the relationship between the Starks and Stannis, which is already that of an  outraged monarch dealing with traitorous subjects, from Stannis' view. If Stannis wants the charred, smoking ruin Winterfell has become, he doesn't need to marry anyone to anyone, to take it. He'll just take it and award it to a favorite, as Lord Tywin did with Harrenhal. Marrying a favorite to Sansa might corrupt him and give him ideas about Northern independence. Best to start with a clean slate in the North.

 

Basically, as far as Stannis and Melisandre are concerned, Sansa is a spell ingredient, as are all the Starks. But he'd have started with the one he actually had in custody. He needs what that spell can give him, far, far more than he will ever need anything else Sansa or her family have on offer. The only question in my mind is whether he'd have taken her back to Dragonstone and let her have a bath and some wine, before burning her alive, or if he'd have given her to Melisandre on the beach before anyone had time to rescue her or talk him out of it.

 

They are only enemies the way the United States and Finland were enemies in WWII.  They never fought any battles against each other and never spilled blood against each other.

 

They may have become real enemies if Robb refused to bend the knee, but at that point they were not enemies in the way they were enemies against the Lannister's.

 

Stannis just does not have a logical reason to kill or harm Sansa outright if she had been captured at Blackwater.

 

Let's also not forget, that Melisandre's spell making was a direct result of Stannis LOSING Blackwater.  If he had won, then he would have already eliminated his greatest threat.  Why would he then turn to spells to kill Robb and Greyjoy? 


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#879

Hecate7

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Posted Today, 02:00 PM

Because they are still threats. And because there's still Danaerys out there. Stannis wants the Seven Kingdoms, not Six, not Five, not Five and a Half. He is not going to set a precedent of allowing the Kingdoms to secede. It sets a dangerous precedent--he could end up ruling none of them.

 

Robb already refused to bend the knee, at that little talk where Catelyn tried to convince the Baratheon brothers to team up with Robb against the Lannisters. It would have been the logical, practical, smart thing to do. Renly was willing, Stannis was not. There would never have been a truce, because Robb couldn't afford to take off the Northern crown once he'd put it on, and Stannis already refused to accept anything less than Robb bending the knee.

 

Even supposing you're right and that Stannis freed Sansa from the Red Keep and took her to Dragonstone to live as a guest, rather than simply turning her over to be burned alive immediately, Sansa was leading a prayer circle during the seige, praying to The Seven. Selyse would demand Sansa's immediate burning.

 

Stannis's court is not a nice happy place. It's like the Spanish Inquisition over there, and Sansa is exactly the sort of heretic they're trying to burn.


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#880

skeeter22

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Posted Today, 02:33 PM

Sansa is fairly pragmatic. I think she'd have no problem converting to whatever faith will keep her alive. They were only burning people who refused to convert.

 

Sansa is an extremely valuable hostage, there is absolutely no upside to Stannis killing or mistreating her. She was only in danger in KL because Cersei and Joffrey were cruel and terrible at politics. She wasn't ransomed for gold because she was more valuable for dynastic purposes. That's why the first thing the Tyrells did when they settled at KL was try to get control of Sansa. If Stannis had won st Blackwater, one of the first things he would have done was secure Sansa, and Arya if they still had her, because she would have been a trump card in any dealings with the North. 


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