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Sansa Stark: Be Careful What You Ask For!


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#841

Mulbag

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Posted Apr 13, 2014 @ 7:49 PM

 

Tyrion has served as Prime Minister and Minister of Finance for the Lannister regime.  He knows Joffrey is not the rightful king, yet continues to serve him because Joffrey is the Lannister king, going to so far as to burn hundreds if not thousands of men alive with wildfire in service of that King.  Tyrion married Sansa because he as told to marry Sansa.  As far back as the second episode of Season 1, Jaime all but confessed to pushing Bran out a window and Tyrion responded that of course he wouldn't do anything about it.  Tyrion occassionally poo poos his famliy's behavior, but he never does anything about it.  At best, he's an enabler and after-the-fact accomplice.
 
Tyrion's offer to help Sansa was beyond obnoxious. He can't bring her family back from the dead, and he can't and won't bring their killers to justice, and both Sansa and Tyrion know it.

Personally, I don't think that Tyrion's inactivity means that he is siding with his family. I mean, what can Tyrion do knowing that Joffrey isn't the rightful king? Or, if they had lost the war, what would have happened to Tyrion? This is not saying that I'm necessarily concerned for him, but how many people in series care that Tyrion hasn't done anything to harm anyone or doesn't agree with his family--very very few. All that matters to them is that he is a Lannister. So, yes, he wants his family to win the war because the little protection he had is gone if they lose. Can Tyrion defy his father? He can crack smartass remarks, but all of his security is because of his father. Without that, he life looks pretty grim. Regardless of what Tyrion feel, his family is going to do what they want to do.

 

Regarding Sansa, with all that was said, Tyrion does what he can. He's alive and stays alive because he is smart and knows when to meddle and when not to meddle. I really don't see what he is doing or is trying to do for Sansa obnoxious. Even if he can't do anything for her, does that mean he should do nothing? Leave Sansa to her own devices and call it a day? What people are saying is that some sort of alliance can be formed, so that down the line, Sansa can get justice. It's not going to happen right away, but it could if Sansa learns to keep her anger in check. Is she any better where she is now? Quietly seething and depressed? At least Tyrion has resources even if they are limited.


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#842

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Posted Apr 13, 2014 @ 8:38 PM

 

I think that part of the problem is that Joffrey and Cersei's betrayal of Sansa shattered her naivete so thoroughly that for her to trust anyone else now is almost impossible. She never had any middle ground, and now there's no safe way for her to learn *how* to judge people's trustworthiness. Before, she took people at their word. Ned and Cat didn't prepare her in any way for deception or cruelty. So, she trusted Joffrey and Cersei, as *as far as she knew* so did her dad (he got her engaged to Joff after all).

 

Then, that was all shattered in pretty much the worst way; Joffrey publicly beheading her father, and then showing his cruelty as he showed her her father's head and had her beaten. This was the guy who she had believed was her true love just days before. So now, taking her age and lack of "street smarts", her swinging hard the other way and not trusting anyone, particularly any Lannister, doesn't seem unrealistic to me. I have seen that in real life in much smaller situations--someone's boyfriend/girlfriend cheats on them and so they will *never trust again*. Typically they get past that, but Sansa has absolutely no opportunity or reason to learn how to get over it because the betrayal was so thorough and the threat much more all-encompassing. She has no best friend, mother or father to cry on and hear stories of "that guy was a jerk, here are my experiences..." and nobody to teach her how to spot deception or red flags.

 

Not to mention, the fact that KL is basically a nest of vipers and trusting the wrong person could easily get her killed.  Under the circumstances it would be crazy for her NOT to be paranoid about opening up to people.  Sansa may not have been turned into a hardened killer like Arya, but there's no doubt she's been damaged deeply as well.


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#843

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 6:44 AM

I thought ST did a very good job with Sansa in "The Lion and The Rose".    She was simmering with horror, contempt, trauma, resentment, pretty much everything you would expect after that emotional horror show Joffrey staged for his wedding feast.

 

Whatever else has always been said about their interactions, from an acting stand point I've always loved Sansa's interactions with Tyrion.   I don't doubt she still detest him for being a Lannister but I thought it was very (dare I say) gallant of Tyrion when he held Sansa's hand in support when she had to watch the dwarf version of Robb Stark during the "festivities", even though he himself was uncomfortable for obvious reasons.    And I liked seeing Sansa's returned kindness, while nobody other than Cersei seemed to approve of Joffrey's horrible conduct Sansa was the only one to take some small measure of action.   When she bent under the table and picked up the cup and gave it to Tyrion.

 

It's a shame they didn't meet under different circumstances because there probably could have been a very good rapport between the two.


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#844

Dailykos

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 8:42 AM

It's funny how the latest episode pretty much rendered all the arguing about Sansa/Tyrion moot.


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#845

My Way

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 9:53 AM

It's funny how the latest episode pretty much rendered all the arguing about Sansa/Tyrion moot.

Eh, I knew what was coming but I still think Sansa should have been working something earlier.


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#846

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 6:05 PM

Tyrion's offer to help Sansa was beyond obnoxious. He can't bring her family back from the dead, and he can't and won't bring their killers to justice, and both Sansa and Tyrion know it.

 

And someone else can do those things? Tyrion was in a good position to at least help Sansa get on with her life. She could have had all the books, music, art, or training in swordsmanship or any other subject she wanted. She could have travelled the world. He would have built her a house or a castle anywhere she wanted, or sent her anywhere she wanted to go, if she asked. And although he could not kill Cersei, Joffrey, or Tywin without becoming a kinslayer, he would have given her a big enough allowance that she could have hired her own assassins, and probably wouldn't have asked her about it. As a Lannister, Sansa could afford to hire anybody in the world to do just about anything. Too bad it didn't occur to her.

 

I do think Tyrion would draw the line at Jaime, who loves him, but he'd have turned a blind eye if Sansa wanted to send assassins after Cersei, Joffrey, or Tywin.


Edited by Hecate7, Apr 14, 2014 @ 6:10 PM.

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#847

mixedmed

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Posted Apr 15, 2014 @ 11:31 AM

He knows Joffrey is not the rightful king, yet continues to serve him because Joffrey is the Lannister king, going to so far as to burn hundreds if not thousands of men alive with wildfire in service of that King.

 

Those burnt up men were part of an invading army that would have tortured, raped and killed inhabitants of King's Landing...which included Sansa. There was no certainty that "By the Book" Stannis who had his own brother in law burnt as an infidel would have shown Sansa any mercy even if Tyrion threw down his sword and begged for it. I certainly can't fault Tyrion for doing what he had to in this regard.

 
Tyrion's offer to help Sansa was beyond obnoxious. He can't bring her family back from the dead, and he can't and won't bring their killers to justice, and both Sansa and Tyrion know it.

 

So the answer is to remain indifferent then?


Edited by mixedmed, Apr 15, 2014 @ 11:31 AM.

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#848

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Posted Apr 16, 2014 @ 1:06 PM

Those burnt up men were part of an invading army that would have tortured, raped and killed inhabitants of King's Landing...which included Sansa. There was no certainty that "By the Book" Stannis who had his own brother in law burnt as an infidel would have shown Sansa any mercy even if Tyrion threw down his sword and begged for it. I certainly can't fault Tyrion for doing what he had to in this regard.
 
Tyrion talked to Shae about defending King's Landing because he was a Lannister.  Tyrion talked to Varys about defending King's Landing because if Stannis wins, then the game is over.  Never once did he indicate he was doing it for Sansa.
 
So the answer is to remain indifferent then?
 
The answer is not to make things worse by making self-serving, disingenuous offers that show how much you "disapprove" so that you feel more comfortable riding your high horse.

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#849

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Posted Apr 16, 2014 @ 5:06 PM

He wasn't riding his high horse. He genuinely felt bad. The thing they both had in common is that Joffrey hated them and wanted to kill them because they both saw what a coward he really was.


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#850

Dailykos

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Posted Apr 16, 2014 @ 7:06 PM

That he didn't do it for Sansa doesn't change that if it wasn't done everyone there would have most likely been killed, raped, or both, including Sansa. That she wasn't the specific reason for it doesn't mean she didn't benefit from it in that way.

 

I don't understand this black and white view of things. People can genuinely feel bad about something members of their families have done while still feeling like they should stick buy them. It's called being conflicted and it's quite human. I don't see why acting like an actual human being and not a saint means he was being disingenuous or  obnoxious.


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#851

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Posted Apr 16, 2014 @ 8:14 PM

Also, people can have multiple reasons for doing a thing. Why else would we make lists of pros and cons?
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#852

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Posted Apr 17, 2014 @ 2:08 PM

Sansa wasn't cruel to Tyrion in 4x01. She doesn't want to deal with anyone, and then Tyrion comes and wants to offer her condolences. He is a smart man, surely he can read the body language of his fourteen year old wife. She didn't yell at him, hit him, or belittle him. She just told him she went to the godswood because no one bothers her there. It isn't only Tyrion she is avoiding, she doesn't want to deal with Shae, not even her beloved lemon cakes can lift her depression after everyone in her family was brutally slaughtered. Sansa was much sharper with Arya, when her entire family was alive, than she was to Tyrion. Also, she is the only one sitting at the high table who actually helped Tyrion, however little, when Joffrey was acting like the douche canoe that he was. She breaks out of her own horror show starting with the wedding breakfast, and topping off with lovely little play that Joffrey forced everyone to view to save him some tiny bit of dignity that Joffrey was trying to tear apart.  Before she found out that her mother and brother were slaughtered, she was trying to make the best of her marriage by being genuinely friendly with Tyrion.

 

I really wish they would have shown how Sansa found out about how horridly her mother and mother were killed and then had their corpses degraded. With Sansa's luck, Joffrey was the one to tell her about how Robb lost his head, and her mother's body was thrown in the river.


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#853

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Posted Apr 17, 2014 @ 3:05 PM

With Sansa's luck, Joffrey was the one to tell her about how Robb lost his head, and her mother's body was thrown in the river.

 

 

Yeah, but she's still lucky Tywin thwarted Joffrey's attempt to serve her Robb's head at the wedding.


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#854

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Posted Apr 17, 2014 @ 4:55 PM

 
Yeah, but she's still lucky Tywin thwarted Joffrey's attempt to serve her Robb's head at the wedding.

Even Cersei wasn't going to let that happen. Her "he's joking", "no I'm not" exchange with Joffrey was actually one of my favorite moments of last season.

I was thinking of how difficult it must be for Sansa to be in King's Landing and surrounded by reminders of what's happened to her family. It reminds me of the scene from the first season when Sansa and Septa Mordane are in the throne room and Sansa mentions that it's the room where her grandfather and uncle were murdered. She seemed so unnerved by that, and she'd never even known them. Imagine being stuck in the place where your father was murdered, under the power of the people responsible. She has no where to go to escape reminders of what she's lost and who did it. It would be hard just to keep your head above water in that situation, let alone grow and find ways to improve your lot.

Edited by skeeter22, Apr 17, 2014 @ 4:55 PM.

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#855

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Posted Apr 17, 2014 @ 5:24 PM

Sansa wasn't cruel to Tyrion in 4x01. She doesn't want to deal with anyone, and then Tyrion comes and wants to offer her condolences. He is a smart man, surely he can read the body language of his fourteen year old wife. She didn't yell at him, hit him, or belittle him.

 

No, that's true. Sansa is very kind to Tyrion. She doesn't trust him, but he doesn't blame her for that. And Tyrion is very kind to Sansa. Neither one of them suggests annulling the marriage. They both try to be kind to one another. They seem, before she leaves, as if they might ultimately unite against the common enemy, a nation of two against King's Landing.

 

In time I do think Sansa might have learned to care for Tyrion, but it would have taken a couple of years of him remaining kind, always keeping his word, and never letting her down, while she continued to mope, because she has plenty to mope about. And I think that's exactly what he'd have done, although my previous remarks about her being one more of Tywin's murder attempts still stand. He'd have kept trying to be a good husband to her, no matter what she did.

 

I don't think she was at all cruel to him, except that first day when she refused to kneel. I think it's good symbolism, come to think of it, that Sansa had to kneel in order to marry Tyrion.

 

It must be awful for Sansa, yes. And it's such a realistic portrait of a girl her age, that it never once enters her head that it was probably no picnic for Ned to sit there, where his brother and father were murdered, either. Her circle of concentration is very, very small. I'm beginning to wonder about Sansa. She can't be stupid, because she sews, dances, learns songs, and figures out etiquette very quickly. It must be the trauma.


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#856

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Posted Apr 18, 2014 @ 9:08 AM

Her circle of concentration is very, very small.

True.

 

I'm beginning to wonder about Sansa. She can't be stupid...

I think early in the series she is very self centered, but mostly that is because she is young. I did not like her interactions with Arya, but sisters squabble all the time so that felt real enough, normal enough.

 

Now, I think she is actually playing the dance of court fairly well for her position, but she does it by constantly repeating the things she knows she ought to say. I think the actress does a fantastic job of showing that when she says the things that won't get her killed, in her head she is thinking 'fuck you all'. I do wish she would do a little more forward planning, but like you said, maybe she is too traumatized. Of course, now her forward planning is being done by someone else...

 

I don't think she was at all cruel to him, except that first day when she refused to kneel.

I do agree with this and on the show she wasn't really shown as cruel to him, so much as oblivious. (book sansa is a little different because we are inside her head) I think they've made her more likeable on the show for me. I love the actress. I really regret that we never got to see a true Sansa/Tyrion take on the world duo because I think that could have been fun.


Edited by My Way, Apr 18, 2014 @ 11:00 AM.

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#857

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Posted Apr 18, 2014 @ 10:17 AM

In time I do think Sansa might have learned to care for Tyrion, but it would have taken a couple of years of him remaining kind, always keeping his word, and never letting her down,

 

I agree with time Sansa and Tyrion might have been able to make their marriage work.  However, there was also no guarantee that Tyrion could have protected Sansa from Joffrey even with Tywin's help had Tywin been so inclined.  I'm glad Joffrey is dead, but it looks like it could be out of the frying pan and into the fire for Sansa and Tyrion.


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#858

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Posted Apr 18, 2014 @ 3:28 PM

 

It was obvious Joffrey was lying.  What butcher's boy in his right mind would attack the heir to the Seven Kingdoms?  Even Sansa's "I don't remember" version of "no comment", was a tip off.  Robert's response was to do nothing, except to have Sansa's direwolf killed.

 

Robert actually did respond though, he looks at Joffery and states about how he let himself be disarmed by a little girl.  So Robert is openly admitting that Joffery is lying.

 

But despite that, he still wants Nymeria dead and still orders the death of Lady.  And we know that Micah was already dead anyway, so in the end it didn't matter that Joffery was lying and that Robert admitted to it, it was Micah, Arya and Sansa who were punished.

 

 

And someone else can do those things? Tyrion was in a good position to at least help Sansa get on with her life. She could have had all the books, music, art, or training in swordsmanship or any other subject she wanted. She could have travelled the world. He would have built her a house or a castle anywhere she wanted, or sent her anywhere she wanted to go, if she asked. And although he could not kill Cersei, Joffrey, or Tywin without becoming a kinslayer, he would have given her a big enough allowance that she could have hired her own assassins, and probably wouldn't have asked her about it. As a Lannister, Sansa could afford to hire anybody in the world to do just about anything. Too bad it didn't occur to her.

 

The problem with this sort of reasoning is you have to assume that Sansa really had the ability to just ask to leave or get what she wanted.  It wasn't Tyrion's money for example, it was his family's.  Would Tywin really allow Sansa to leave King's Landing?  I don't believe so.  Sansa was still alive because Tywin wanted Stark heir's to Winterfell.  I feel that once she had a son or two, her death warrant would have been sealed.  I think maybe on some level she knew that too.

 

And I mean, when she asks Tyrion if they could leave the reception, she isn't even granted that, because Joffery refuses.  If Tyrion didn't even have the power to be able to leave that reception with Sansa, I am not sure we can believe that Sansa was ever going to be allowed to leave King's Landing, or that Tyrion had any power or say so in letting her leave.

 

 

Personally, I don't think that Tyrion's inactivity means that he is siding with his family. I mean, what can Tyrion do knowing that Joffrey isn't the rightful king? Or, if they had lost the war, what would have happened to Tyrion? This is not saying that I'm necessarily concerned for him, but how many people in series care that Tyrion hasn't done anything to harm anyone or doesn't agree with his family--very very few. All that matters to them is that he is a Lannister. So, yes, he wants his family to win the war because the little protection he had is gone if they lose. Can Tyrion defy his father? He can crack smartass remarks, but all of his security is because of his father. Without that, he life looks pretty grim. Regardless of what Tyrion feel, his family is going to do what they want to do.

 

I do think Tyrion is siding with his family to some degree.  He does love Jamie and wanted him to come home safely.  So much of what he did was to ensure that.  He also of course was looking out for his own skin at the Blackwater battle.  He knew his head would be on a pike whether he helped or not.

 

However, I don't think from Sansa's standpoint we could assume she would look at these actions and think of Tyrion as being blameless.  I think it's logical that she would or could see him as being the enemy, even if he truly wasn't.  And there's also the matter of Tyrion still being arrested by her mother, for the attempt on Bran's life.  We've never heard what she thinks about that, or if she even knows.  But if she does, then that would be another thing she might hold against him.

 

 

The death of Lady represented the end of Sansa's Stark-ness, which she had already lost when she prevaricated about what happened on King's Road. A true Stark would have blundered on ahead, and told the true story of what had happened that day, come what may.

 

I disagree that Sansa had no choice. Robert was king, not Joffrey, and he would have attempted to discipline Joffrey. Sansa sacrificed Arya's trust, Mica's life, Lady's life, and Nymeria's life, for her relationship with Joffrey, so in a way it's justice that that relationship turned into a nightmare. Sansa has paid in full, though, and I completely forgive her.

 

I don't agree with this at all.  She didn't sacrifice Micah's life because he was already dead by the time this happened.  She didn't sacrifice Nymeria's life, because even after Robert admitted that Joffery was lying and that he believed Arya and Micah had no wrong doing, he was willing and ordering Nymeria be killed.

 

And finally she is responsible for Lady's death, but not for the reason that many believe.  If Sansa had said that Joffery was telling the truth, it is much more likely that Lady would have been spared(at least for that moment, as I am sure Cersei would have found a way to kill Lady eventually).  However, despite Robert calling Joffery a liar in open court, Robert still orders Lady's death.

 

It looks to me that Sansa's statement was simply the only way to prove that Joffery was lying, without calling him a liar.  And we know that she couldn't do that, from Ned.

 

It simply comes down to this statement:

 

 

Robert was king, not Joffrey, and he would have attempted to discipline Joffrey.

 

He doesn't.  He never punished Joffery at all, even after admitting that Joffery was the liar.

 

Whether you believe Sansa could have called Joffery a liar or not, it doesn't matter(and I don't think she could).  The end result was still that Joffery was proven to be a liar and nothing happened to him.  It was still everyone else who was punished.

 

And while, I don't believe that Robert would have burned Arya alive or had Sansa killed if she had also called Joffery a liar.  We see the results of Robert agreeing that Joffery was a liar.  So if that was Arya being proved innocent, then how much worse could it have been if she was decreed to be at fault?


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#859

Constantinople

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Posted Yesterday, 02:26 PM

That he didn't do it for Sansa doesn't change that if it wasn't done everyone there would have most likely been killed, raped, or both, including Sansa. That she wasn't the specific reason for it doesn't mean she didn't benefit from it in that way.
 
Sansa only "benefited" from Tyrion's defense of KIng's Landing because the Lannisters, including Tyrion, were holding her prisoner at King's Landing.

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#860

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Posted Yesterday, 02:49 PM

Which she was before even Tyrion came back to King's Landing.


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#861

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Posted Yesterday, 08:09 PM

I don't think that invalidates the salvation of Sansa, along with the rest of the city. Tyrion's not the one holding her hostage. It's really not up to him at that point, to decide what to do, and Sansa herself is careful to always repeat that she loves Joffrey and wants to marry him, so it would have been very hard before Joffrey's engagement to Margaery to even get Sansa to admit to anyone that she wanted to leave King's Landing. From her refusal to depart with the Hound, it could even be argued that Sansa has the same irrational love of the place, with all its courtly intrigues, as Tyrion.


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