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Sansa Stark: Be Careful What You Ask For!


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#841

Mulbag

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Posted Apr 13, 2014 @ 7:49 PM

 

Tyrion has served as Prime Minister and Minister of Finance for the Lannister regime.  He knows Joffrey is not the rightful king, yet continues to serve him because Joffrey is the Lannister king, going to so far as to burn hundreds if not thousands of men alive with wildfire in service of that King.  Tyrion married Sansa because he as told to marry Sansa.  As far back as the second episode of Season 1, Jaime all but confessed to pushing Bran out a window and Tyrion responded that of course he wouldn't do anything about it.  Tyrion occassionally poo poos his famliy's behavior, but he never does anything about it.  At best, he's an enabler and after-the-fact accomplice.
 
Tyrion's offer to help Sansa was beyond obnoxious. He can't bring her family back from the dead, and he can't and won't bring their killers to justice, and both Sansa and Tyrion know it.

Personally, I don't think that Tyrion's inactivity means that he is siding with his family. I mean, what can Tyrion do knowing that Joffrey isn't the rightful king? Or, if they had lost the war, what would have happened to Tyrion? This is not saying that I'm necessarily concerned for him, but how many people in series care that Tyrion hasn't done anything to harm anyone or doesn't agree with his family--very very few. All that matters to them is that he is a Lannister. So, yes, he wants his family to win the war because the little protection he had is gone if they lose. Can Tyrion defy his father? He can crack smartass remarks, but all of his security is because of his father. Without that, he life looks pretty grim. Regardless of what Tyrion feel, his family is going to do what they want to do.

 

Regarding Sansa, with all that was said, Tyrion does what he can. He's alive and stays alive because he is smart and knows when to meddle and when not to meddle. I really don't see what he is doing or is trying to do for Sansa obnoxious. Even if he can't do anything for her, does that mean he should do nothing? Leave Sansa to her own devices and call it a day? What people are saying is that some sort of alliance can be formed, so that down the line, Sansa can get justice. It's not going to happen right away, but it could if Sansa learns to keep her anger in check. Is she any better where she is now? Quietly seething and depressed? At least Tyrion has resources even if they are limited.


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#842

The Other Daughter

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Posted Apr 13, 2014 @ 8:38 PM

 

I think that part of the problem is that Joffrey and Cersei's betrayal of Sansa shattered her naivete so thoroughly that for her to trust anyone else now is almost impossible. She never had any middle ground, and now there's no safe way for her to learn *how* to judge people's trustworthiness. Before, she took people at their word. Ned and Cat didn't prepare her in any way for deception or cruelty. So, she trusted Joffrey and Cersei, as *as far as she knew* so did her dad (he got her engaged to Joff after all).

 

Then, that was all shattered in pretty much the worst way; Joffrey publicly beheading her father, and then showing his cruelty as he showed her her father's head and had her beaten. This was the guy who she had believed was her true love just days before. So now, taking her age and lack of "street smarts", her swinging hard the other way and not trusting anyone, particularly any Lannister, doesn't seem unrealistic to me. I have seen that in real life in much smaller situations--someone's boyfriend/girlfriend cheats on them and so they will *never trust again*. Typically they get past that, but Sansa has absolutely no opportunity or reason to learn how to get over it because the betrayal was so thorough and the threat much more all-encompassing. She has no best friend, mother or father to cry on and hear stories of "that guy was a jerk, here are my experiences..." and nobody to teach her how to spot deception or red flags.

 

Not to mention, the fact that KL is basically a nest of vipers and trusting the wrong person could easily get her killed.  Under the circumstances it would be crazy for her NOT to be paranoid about opening up to people.  Sansa may not have been turned into a hardened killer like Arya, but there's no doubt she's been damaged deeply as well.


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#843

DrScheme

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 6:44 AM

I thought ST did a very good job with Sansa in "The Lion and The Rose".    She was simmering with horror, contempt, trauma, resentment, pretty much everything you would expect after that emotional horror show Joffrey staged for his wedding feast.

 

Whatever else has always been said about their interactions, from an acting stand point I've always loved Sansa's interactions with Tyrion.   I don't doubt she still detest him for being a Lannister but I thought it was very (dare I say) gallant of Tyrion when he held Sansa's hand in support when she had to watch the dwarf version of Robb Stark during the "festivities", even though he himself was uncomfortable for obvious reasons.    And I liked seeing Sansa's returned kindness, while nobody other than Cersei seemed to approve of Joffrey's horrible conduct Sansa was the only one to take some small measure of action.   When she bent under the table and picked up the cup and gave it to Tyrion.

 

It's a shame they didn't meet under different circumstances because there probably could have been a very good rapport between the two.


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#844

Dailykos

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 8:42 AM

It's funny how the latest episode pretty much rendered all the arguing about Sansa/Tyrion moot.


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#845

My Way

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 9:53 AM

It's funny how the latest episode pretty much rendered all the arguing about Sansa/Tyrion moot.

Eh, I knew what was coming but I still think Sansa should have been working something earlier.


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#846

Hecate7

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Posted Apr 14, 2014 @ 6:05 PM

Tyrion's offer to help Sansa was beyond obnoxious. He can't bring her family back from the dead, and he can't and won't bring their killers to justice, and both Sansa and Tyrion know it.

 

And someone else can do those things? Tyrion was in a good position to at least help Sansa get on with her life. She could have had all the books, music, art, or training in swordsmanship or any other subject she wanted. She could have travelled the world. He would have built her a house or a castle anywhere she wanted, or sent her anywhere she wanted to go, if she asked. And although he could not kill Cersei, Joffrey, or Tywin without becoming a kinslayer, he would have given her a big enough allowance that she could have hired her own assassins, and probably wouldn't have asked her about it. As a Lannister, Sansa could afford to hire anybody in the world to do just about anything. Too bad it didn't occur to her.

 

I do think Tyrion would draw the line at Jaime, who loves him, but he'd have turned a blind eye if Sansa wanted to send assassins after Cersei, Joffrey, or Tywin.


Edited by Hecate7, Apr 14, 2014 @ 6:10 PM.

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#847

mixedmed

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Posted Apr 15, 2014 @ 11:31 AM

He knows Joffrey is not the rightful king, yet continues to serve him because Joffrey is the Lannister king, going to so far as to burn hundreds if not thousands of men alive with wildfire in service of that King.

 

Those burnt up men were part of an invading army that would have tortured, raped and killed inhabitants of King's Landing...which included Sansa. There was no certainty that "By the Book" Stannis who had his own brother in law burnt as an infidel would have shown Sansa any mercy even if Tyrion threw down his sword and begged for it. I certainly can't fault Tyrion for doing what he had to in this regard.

 
Tyrion's offer to help Sansa was beyond obnoxious. He can't bring her family back from the dead, and he can't and won't bring their killers to justice, and both Sansa and Tyrion know it.

 

So the answer is to remain indifferent then?


Edited by mixedmed, Apr 15, 2014 @ 11:31 AM.

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#848

Constantinople

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Posted Yesterday, 01:06 PM

Those burnt up men were part of an invading army that would have tortured, raped and killed inhabitants of King's Landing...which included Sansa. There was no certainty that "By the Book" Stannis who had his own brother in law burnt as an infidel would have shown Sansa any mercy even if Tyrion threw down his sword and begged for it. I certainly can't fault Tyrion for doing what he had to in this regard.
 
Tyrion talked to Shae about defending King's Landing because he was a Lannister.  Tyrion talked to Varys about defending King's Landing because if Stannis wins, then the game is over.  Never once did he indicate he was doing it for Sansa.
 
So the answer is to remain indifferent then?
 
The answer is not to make things worse by making self-serving, disingenuous offers that show how much you "disapprove" so that you feel more comfortable riding your high horse.

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#849

VCRTracking

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Posted Yesterday, 05:06 PM

He wasn't riding his high horse. He genuinely felt bad. The thing they both had in common is that Joffrey hated them and wanted to kill them because they both saw what a coward he really was.


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#850

Dailykos

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Posted Yesterday, 07:06 PM

That he didn't do it for Sansa doesn't change that if it wasn't done everyone there would have most likely been killed, raped, or both, including Sansa. That she wasn't the specific reason for it doesn't mean she didn't benefit from it in that way.

 

I don't understand this black and white view of things. People can genuinely feel bad about something members of their families have done while still feeling like they should stick buy them. It's called being conflicted and it's quite human. I don't see why acting like an actual human being and not a saint means he was being disingenuous or  obnoxious.


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#851

My Way

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Posted Yesterday, 08:14 PM

Also, people can have multiple reasons for doing a thing. Why else would we make lists of pros and cons?
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