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Arya: The Stabbity Stark


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#121

agora

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 11:02 AM

Because Robert's official version is that Lyanna was taken against her will, that she was the only thing he wanted in the whole world and he went to war to get her back only to win the world instead of her.

The only reason I see for Arya's version to go better this time around is that, not only Robert's son went to war with her instead of for her, but she was already prepared to fight whatever peril they've found so far.

But that's Robert's story.

He wasn't exactly the most impartial guy here.

Robert's story is the official story, if only because Arya's aunt was dead long before she could tell anyone her own version of it.

Same thing would happen to Arya's story in case Gendry is the only one with an official version of it IMO.

Edited by agora, Apr 26, 2012 @ 11:06 AM.


#122

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 8:00 PM

...I don't think Arya would marry anyone she didn't want to, or even marry at all, unless Robb tells her she has to do it to help keep the peace. Arya already told Ned last season when he told her she'd marry a nobleman and have sons that were lords and princes, that that wasn't her.


To be completely fair, she said she didn't want to marry a Lord, not that she didn't want to marry at all.


It's fair to assume she meant she didn't want to marry at all. Ned is the one who used the word "Lord"--he said she'd marry a great lord and give him sons. And she said, "no, that's not me."

Since Ned told her this in response to her question about whether she could become a knight, I think it's safe to say she was rejecting marriage altogether, rather than pining for a life married to some commoner. It's not just the Great Lord part she's rejecting--it's also the "give him sons" part. I think Arya would have loved to follow Brienne of Tarth's example and be a fighter.

But unlike
Spoiler
, I'm not so sure Arya will ever fancy anyone, or, if she does, that it'll be a male. She's got strong affections and a passionate nature, but nothing to suggest a crush on anyone.

I think people forget, too, that Arya is between Bran's age and Sansa's. Sansa, aged up to 14 instead of the 12 she is in the books, would be in 8th grade. Arya, only 9 in the books, is about 11 on the show--she'd be in 5th grade!
She is too young for anything she does now to reflect on her chastity or purity later.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 27, 2012 @ 8:02 PM.
Added spoiler tags


#123

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 8:33 PM

[Arya]'s got strong affections and a passionate nature, but nothing to suggest a crush on anyone.

I believe this would be a glaring omission of Gendry and Mycah, the butcher's boy.

*ETA: The way I see it, Arya has had plenty of crushes on the show so far, only thing is that Joffrey tends to put a death warrant over their heads.

Edited by agora, Apr 26, 2012 @ 8:41 PM.


#124

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 9:58 PM

Robert's story is the official story

So what? That doesn't make it any easier to believe. History is written by the winners, and winners afford to be able to lie.

I think finding parallels between Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark on one hand an Gendry [NO LAST NAME GIVEN ON THE SHOW] and Arya Stark on the other is akin to connecting dots which don't exist, but that's just my opinion.

I believe this would be a glaring omission of Gendry and Mycah, the butcher's boy.

I don't think Arya has a crush on Gendry so far, and Arya having a crush on Mycah? When did that happen?

Edited by Mars477, Apr 26, 2012 @ 9:59 PM.


#125

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 2:53 AM

I believe this would be a glaring omission of Gendry and Mycah, the butcher's boy.


I don't think Arya has a crush on Gendry so far, and Arya having a crush on Mycah? When did that happen?


This. Just because she knows a boy, and is around him, doesn't mean she's got a crush. There is a HUGE difference between knowing a boy, and having a crush on him. Arya played with Mycah because she prefers boy's games over girl's, and because her own brothers were either too old, too young, or too sick to play with her.

Her grief and fury over his death were the normal grief and fury any child would feel over a murdered playmate, and her guilt was the standard guilt anyone raised by the Starks would feel over the death of a subordinate who was following HER orders.

I don't see the crush on Gendry, either. She's very emotionally invested in him, because he's the closest thing to a parent she has at the moment. She's lost her father, doesn't know whether she'll ever see her mother or brothers again, and she's a child. We don't see her doing anything that would suggest a crush. She doesn't follow him around like a puppy. Her body language is that of a sister or friend. So is his. His eyes don't linger on her, he doesn't stand too close or stare too long. She doesn't toss her head or wiggle or cant her neck from side to side the way girls unconsciously do, when they're attracted. I don't believe Arya has been brought up to be able to hide her feelings that well yet--if she did have a crush on Gendry we'd see it. They're friends who care deeply and would die for one another, but there's no ship here.

#126

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 9:03 AM

I believe this would be a glaring omission of Gendry and Mycah, the butcher's boy.

*ETA: The way I see it, Arya has had plenty of crushes on the show so far, only thing is that Joffrey tends to put a death warrant over their heads.

I don't think Arya has a crush on Gendry so far, and Arya having a crush on Mycah? When did that happen?

Personally, I think the show would have to do a lot better than that in order to convince me Arya "doesn't like boys", same as it took Ser Loras and two seasons in order to convince me Renly does like boys.

I don't see the crush on Gendry, either. She's very emotionally invested in him, because he's the closest thing to a parent she has at the moment.

I'd say Yoren is - well, was - the closest thing to a parent for Arya, if she's emotionally invested in Gendry by now that must be for a completely different reason IMO.

Edited by agora, Apr 27, 2012 @ 10:05 AM.


#127

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 9:21 AM

Just because someone's a tomboy doesn't mean she's into girls sexually. So far she shows no signs of being into anyone sexually. In fact from outward signs it doesn't look like puberty has hit her or her actress. The butcher's boy was just a friend and Gendry, at this point at least, I think is just a big brother substitute.

#128

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 3:52 PM

I'd say Yoren is - well, was - the closest thing to a parent for Arya, if she's emotionally invested in Gendry by now that must be for a completely different reason IMO.


She's 11. She grew up with TWO parents, plus Septas, Maesters, Nan, and of course what amounted to three big brothers--Jon Snow, Robb Stark, and Theon Greyjoy. Now there are NO adults looking out for her, except for Gendry.

Certainly she related to Yoren as a father figure in the wake of Ned's death, and related to Gendry as if he were Robb or Jon. Now Yoren's dead, too. That makes Gendry even more important. It's not necessary for her to have a crush on Gendry, for him to be the most important person in her world right now.

Just because someone's a tomboy doesn't mean she's into girls sexually. So far she shows no signs of being into anyone sexually. In fact from outward signs it doesn't look like puberty has hit her or her actress. The butcher's boy was just a friend and Gendry, at this point at least, I think is just a big brother substitute.


Well, puberty has certainly hit the actress--she has budding breasts which ruin the illusion of her being a boy at all, even though they're not large or anything. But puberty definitely hasn't hit Arya.

Personally, I think the show would have to do a lot better than that in order to convince me Arya "doesn't like boys", same as it took Ser Loras and two seasons in order to convince me Renly does like boys.


Wow--most people got it when Baelisch asked Renly "when will you be HAVING your friend?" with a nod to gorgeous Loras, who looked right past the beautiful Sansa Stark to flirt with Renly.

Be that as it may, the show shouldn't have to convince anyone that Arya is a lesbian, for us to accept that her feelings towards boys so far have been those of a little sister or a friend. She doesn't have to like girls, to be disinterested in boys. She's 11.

If Arya had a crush on anyone, she'd be rehearsing her first kiss with them in her head before sleeping, not chanting the list of people she plans to kill when she grows up over and over.

#129

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:03 PM

I'd say Yoren is - well, was - the closest thing to a parent for Arya, if she's emotionally invested in Gendry by now that must be for a completely different reason IMO.

She's 11. She grew up with TWO parents, plus Septas, Maesters, Nan, and of course what amounted to three big brothers...

With all due respect, there's nothing that even remotely suggest to me that Yoren & Gendry were a same sex couple co-parenting either Arya or the orphans on their way to the wall. To me, this makes even less sense than the "Arya must be a lesbian" argument just because, for some reason, Myach and Gendry "can't count" as a crush.

*ETA:

If Arya had a crush on anyone, she'd be rehearsing her first kiss with them in her head before sleeping, not chanting the list of people she plans to kill when she grows up over and over.

And if Arya would've had her first kiss I would agree but, as it is, all what's left for her is to list the people responsible for Mycah's death (and potentially Gendry's), if only because the Hound killed Mycah, because of Joffrey, under Cercei orders, long before Arya could have a first kiss of her own.

Edited by agora, Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:21 PM.


#130

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:05 PM

If Arya had a crush on anyone, she'd be rehearsing her first kiss with them in her head before sleeping, not chanting the list of people she plans to kill when she grows up over and over.


Agreed. She's an 11-year-old kid trying to keep herself and her friends alive without getting raped, tortured and killed. She has more important things on her mind than crushing on some guy or girl.

I'd say Yoren is - well, was - the closest thing to a parent for Arya


More like a babysitter with a sword, or like a flight attendant supervising a kid who is flying from one city to another alone. At best a temporary mentor of sorts. Yoren was looking out for the people he was herding to the wall including the kids but he wasn't any kind of parent and neither was Gendry. Gendry's an older friend looking out for the rest of his gang of misfits.

Edited by Asari, Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:12 PM.


#131

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:29 PM

Arya and Mikah were friends, now she's friends with Gendry. Just because they are opposite sex, doesn't mean there has to be anything more to their friendship. Arya just lost her father, and now has to see everyone die around her, I agree that she doesn't have time or emotional strength to develop crushes, nor do I think she's quite there yet in her development.

I think she'd have to be sociopath not to be emotionally invested in Gendry. The only person who knows who she is and was kind to her was about to be tortured to death. It would be superweird if that hadn't elicit emotional response. I'd say Arya is emotionally invested in Hot Pie, too, just not as much.

#132

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 5:02 PM

Thanks, Asari.

With all due respect, there's nothing that even remotely suggest to me that Yoren & Gendry were a same sex couple co-parenting either Arya or the orphans on their way to the wall. To me, that makes even less sense than the "Arya must be a lesbian" argument just because, for some reason, Myach and Gendry "can't count" as a crush.


I'm sorry I confused you so much--neither of those statements are even close to what I was trying to say.

Mycah "can't count" as a crush because Arya didn't have a crush on him, any more than she's got one on Hot Pie or the boy she killed escaping King's Landing. Mycah was a fat little boy she played with because he was the only kid who'd play what she wanted to play, and let her boss him around. And then he died for it, which will haunt Arya for life. It's important enough without there having to be a crush, too.

I NEVER meant to suggest in any way that Gendry or Yoren had anything going on, nor that they were intentionally co-parenting in a modern sense. I just meant that Arya's need for a surrogate parent doesn't begin and end with Yoren. In fact it didn't begin with Ned's death--Syrio was something of a surrogate father, as was Jon Snow. A child will accept surrogate parenting from any caring adult or older child s/he trusts. I think Harry Potter had about six or seven surrogate parents, most of whom were men, none of whom were in relationships together.

Gendry is really, really important to Arya. I wouldn't call it a crush, simply because I haven't seen any signs from Arya that she wants anything more from him than what they have--a sort of orphan brother-sister relationship. It's very emotionally intense, but there's no physical longing or passion, just the emotional bonding. I guess Arya could have an unrequited crush on Gendry, like a third grader might get on a favorite teacher, (she's 9 in the books,) but it's not necessary for there to be a crush. He's important enough as it is-at the moment, now that Yoren is dead, he's the only person she trusts, and the only person left that she can count on.

Not having a crush on a boy doesn't make her a lesbian. We won't know what Arya's deal is, until she's much older. If then.

#133

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 7:44 PM

I'd say Yoren is - well, was - the closest thing to a parent for Arya, if she's emotionally invested in Gendry by now that must be for a completely different reason IMO.

She's 11. She grew up with TWO parents, plus Septas, Maesters, Nan, and of course what amounted to three big brothers...

With all due respect, there's nothing that even remotely suggest to me that Yoren & Gendry were a same sex couple co-parenting either Arya or the orphans on their way to the wall.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see anywhere where this has been implied at all.

I don't think Arya has a crush on Gendry. Male/female relationships don't automatically default to romantic or even to the level of childhood crushes, especially when one of the parties involved is prepubescent.

#134

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 12:39 AM

The only person who knows who she is and was kind to her was about to be tortured to death. It would be superweird if that hadn't elicit emotional response. I'd say Arya is emotionally invested in Hot Pie, too, just not as much.

Although most children adapt fairly quickly to abnormal stressors such as famine, war or natural disasters, there is no such thing as an 'invulnerable child'. In Arya's case, resilience does seem linked to a particular individual rather than a group of people therefore, losing said individual, might have broken her regardless.

That being said, I don't see any sign of lesbianism either.

Edited by grimm2, Apr 28, 2012 @ 12:45 AM.


#135

aimlessgun

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 7:59 AM

As a book reader, this discussion is highly amusing. But then again, maybe show Arya and book Arya will diverge wildly.

#136

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 9:52 AM

I'd say Yoren is - well, was - the closest thing to a parent for Arya


More like a babysitter with a sword, or like a flight attendant supervising a kid who is flying from one city to another alone.


Yoren's duties required him to transport the psychos in the cage, Gendry, Hot Pie and others to the Wall, but those duties did not require him to watch over Arya. That was entirely voluntary.

Yoren may not have been a father figure, but his relationship with Arya was more familial than just a flight attendant. It was something more avuncular in nature, which makes sense:

Your brother Benjen, his blood runs black. Makes him as much my brother as yours. It's for his sake I rode here so hard - Yoren to Ned Stark.



#137

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 10:30 AM

Yoren may not have been a father figure, but his relationship with Arya was more familial than just a flight attendant. It was something more avuncular in nature...

Its all the more meaningful to me considering Arya adopted his ways after he died, if only because she's reciting her "Willam" list every night just like Yoren told her the last night he was still alive.

I believe this is the closest a sworn brother of the Night's Watch could get to pass on the words of his House to his children.

Edited by agora, Apr 28, 2012 @ 10:33 AM.


#138

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 12:22 AM

Maisie was most impressive this episode, facing off with Charles Dance of all people. And the look on her face when she sees the body -- oi. The girl's going some dark places, not that anyone can blame her.

And I liked her scene with Gendry, too. I refuse to analyze the look she was giving him, but I liked that she seemed, at least for a moment, relaxed and felt herself enough to be able to teach Gendry how to be using the sword and even smile (smirk?) a little -- she's lucky to have Hot Pie and Gendry around, who she can be herself with. Otherwise the girl would be all darkness and rage.

Edited by Peekay, Apr 30, 2012 @ 3:16 PM.


#139

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:54 AM

From the episode thread:

It was all in the "sideface" wording, I could dismiss the appreciation glance she threw at him but that poor thing couldn't even speak the common tongue right ...and that it's her first language.

Arya was quoting her dancing master, Syrio. Someone upthread said that scene seemed like a callback to the first episode where she out-shot Bran with a bow. It was actually a callback to her first fencing lesson with Syrio.


Somehow I don't remember Syrio checking her out the way Arya was doing with Gendry when speaking ... but I guess anything can be possible. I mean, a shadow man just killed Renly.

I didn't take it as Arya checking out Gendry at all. I thought she was analyzing his fighting technique in a master-student sort of way (like her relationship with Syrio) rather than a girl-boy sort of way. I reseve the right to adjust that opinion based on any additional developments between them in future episodes.

I'd say puberty has definitely hit the building, if only because Arya has seen him fight back when Yoren was killed and she had plenty of time to analize his technique before they were brought to Harrenhal, so this looked like a normal girl checking out her first boy more than anything else.

To me, Arya was the perfect picture of her sister Sansa the first time she saw Prince Joffrey ride to Winterfell.

Edited by agora, Apr 30, 2012 @ 10:00 AM.


#140

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 10:09 AM

I didn't get any sense that Arya was checking out Gendry as a hot guy that she was attracted to. I think the camera panning was fanservice (thanks for that, GoT!). Arya seemed fairly clinical in her assessment of his fighting stance. I'm sure she's seen some of her brothers without their shirts and Gendry strikes me as her new big brother figure.

How awesome is Arya though? I can see why Charles Dance was singing Maisie's praises in an interview because she fantastic in this role, just so good at seeming a mixture of fear, boldness and calculation. I can see why Tywin would be amused or intrigued by this smart little girl who managed to survive by being clever. I think he appreciates resourceful people, however young.

#141

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 12:16 PM

I didn't get any sense that Arya was checking out Gendry as a hot guy that she was attracted to.

I'd say the subtext was so very clear to me I'm amazed more people didn't notice the phallic symbol dipping into water as she was dipping into a staring contest with those abs.

That being said, my favorite scenes are a definite tie between Tywin and Jaquen H'Qar, I could watch a whole spin off with Arya's adventures in Harrenhal.

Edited by agora, Apr 30, 2012 @ 12:19 PM.


#142

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 2:00 PM

As someone unspoiled by the books, I am getting an increasing sense that GoT is Arya's story more than any of the other Starks. I see this as a Good Thing thanks to Maisie Williams, who has acting chops way beyond her years. I'm hoping she will land the show's next Emmy.

One more thing:
Spoiler


#143

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 3:23 PM

How awesome is Arya though? I can see why Charles Dance was singing Maisie's praises in an interview because she fantastic in this role, just so good at seeming a mixture of fear, boldness and calculation. I can see why Tywin would be amused or intrigued by this smart little girl who managed to survive by being clever. I think he appreciates resourceful people, however young.


Absolutely. She's been unbelievable in this role, I think. And I'm someone who has such a very low tolerance for child actors. I said it in the episode thread, but she is Arya. Every mannerism is almost lifted from the book.

She even gets subtle expressions spot on. Her brief smile when she was talking about Robb, the way her eyes seemed to go flinty hard when she said "anyone can be killed", and the second smile, when she realised at the end that she holds the power of life and death over two more people.

This girl has the brightest of bright futures ahead of her.

#144

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 3:46 PM

Maisie Williams is incredible.

I'd say the subtext was so very clear to me I'm amazed more people didn't notice the phallic symbol dipping into water as she was dipping into a staring contest with those abs.


Well, I think for Arya a sword is still a sword, however phallic it may look to the audience.

It looked like fan service to me. I think someone recently even wished to see shirtless Gendry, and ta-da! There he was in all his glory. This was more for the audience than for Arya, IMO.

Arya's main reaction to Gendry's prancing around was to tell him he's doing it wrong. Very sisterly. But since she was hearkening back to Syrio, who knows.

#145

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 5:37 PM

I'd say the subtext was so very clear to me I'm amazed more people didn't notice the phallic symbol dipping into water as she was dipping into a staring contest with those abs.


Well, I think for Arya a sword is still a sword, however phallic it may look to the audience.


I think a sword was just a sword in that scene too. Honestly I never thought "phallis" when I looked at the sword dippage, I was just thinking "OMG looks at Gendry ripped abs...and guns...!" I really don't think HBO will be suggesting something sexual between a 12-ish year old girl and a full grown man, even if they do throw in seemingly gratuitous sex among adult characters on the show.

I think the purpose of that scene was to show continuity of Arya's brother-sister relationship with Gendry and that she hasn't forgotten her water dancing lessons...and to give the TV viewing audience a little beef cake while waiting for the Tickler to drop dead.

#146

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 6:01 PM

She even gets subtle expressions spot on. Her brief smile when [Arya] was talking about Robb, the way her eyes seemed to go flinty hard when she said "anyone can be killed"...

I'd dare to say no one has ever threaten Tywin Lannister with such finesse before, not even his own children. Robb would've been proud of her, that's for sure.

I am getting an increasing sense that GoT is Arya's story more than any of the other Starks. I see this as a Good Thing thanks to Maisie Williams, who has acting chops way beyond her years.

I guess I tend to see this as the adults's story only because that's customary on TV. I mean, it wasn't until Ned was executed and Khal Drogo killed that I started to see this as Robb's and Daenery's story too, but the kids performances are so solid that I can see why this is also Bran's and Arya's story, just as much as it's Catlyn's or Stannis's or Jon's and Sansa's.

Edited by agora, Apr 30, 2012 @ 7:46 PM.


#147

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 7:53 AM

Yeah, Arya was definitely not checking Gendry out in any sexual fashion. Nor do I believe there was any "phallic" symbolism in that scene. The sword was there so Arya could pass on/reference the teachings of her dancing classes, and show her surrogate brother that she knows what she's talking about. Any sexuality that could be garnered from that scene was pure fan service.

That's all.

#148

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 8:29 AM

I do believe it was weird she knew so many legends about Robb if she's been in Harrenhal since before Tywin arrived, either they captured many northern since that happened or the ones they didn't kill knew many northern themselves, otherwise: How could they know about the direwolf?

Edited by agora, May 1, 2012 @ 8:30 AM.


#149

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 8:33 AM

I didn't get any sexual undertones from that scene either. I was checking out Gendry's abs but I don't think Arya was. He made the sword and was pretending to be fighting (as boys do and Arya did when she was at Winterfell). She was watching his fighting form and then she passed down advice that she learned from her teacher. If he was making a helmet she would not have needed to give him advice, you don't fight with your helmet.

Shirtless Gendry was fan service because he didn't need to do that with his shirt off but I appreciate the fact that he did.

#150

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 9:11 AM

She even gets subtle expressions spot on. Her brief smile when [Arya] was talking about Robb, the way her eyes seemed to go flinty hard when she said "anyone can be killed"...

I'd dare to say no one has ever threaten Tywin Lannister with such finesse before, not even his own children

I could be wrong, but I believe Ayra held Tywin's gaze far longer than Tyrion or Jamie ever have, and she only stopped because Tywin ordered her to go fetch the water.

I do believe it was weird she knew so many legends about Robb if she's been in Harrenhal since before Tywin arrived, either they captured many northern since that happened or the ones they didn't kill knew many northern themselves, otherwise: How could they know about the direwolf?


I believe there's been enough time for Arya to pick-up some scuttlebutt, particularly given her current position.

Besides, most of what she said sounded as if it could come straight out of family lore. The Starks have been around for thousands of years and their sigil is the direwolf. No doubt there are family stories about Starks riding direwolves, transforming into them, etc.