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Completely Unspoiled Speculation


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#14862006

TWoP Dietrich

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 6:59 PM

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#2911

HisXLNC

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:36 PM

I saw A Man eating an apple, slowly -- just like Tickler had been doing while looking bored and playing Rats-In-A-Bucket with various poor souls prior to Tywin's arrival.


I haven't rewatched but my impression was that he put one finger up, indicating that was the first of his three kills? Maybe he was eating an apple too. Kind of hazy now.
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#2912

aliengrace

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 5:40 PM

Wight not white, I'm assuming. Confusing.
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#2913

anothermi

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 6:00 PM

Wight not white, I'm assuming. Confusing.

I only had the sound to go by. I googled wight and a Dungeons and Dragons meaning came up (the undead) that makes sense, but I know nothing of Dungeons and Dragons (or any other meaning of wight other than "the Isle of..."), so it wasn't the 1st thing to leap to my mind. The colour, and wrongness of it was the 1st thing.

Edited by anothermi, May 2, 2012 @ 6:02 PM.

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#2914

White Stumbler

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 6:45 PM

HisXLNC:
I remember him doing both -- eating an apple and holding up 1 finger. I will re-watch and try to confirm.
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#2915

anothermi

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 7:17 PM

While looking for something else I re-watched the scene with Dany teaching the baby dragon to cook. There was one little piece of dialog that I miss-attributed that may (or may not) have future significance. Dany walks away and Doreah reaches to get another piece of meat but Dany tells her he needs his rest. The little dragon climbs onto Doreah's outstretched hand and as the camera pans to Dany a voice says..."He loves you". I took that to be Doreah speaking to Dany about the dragonette, but the reaction shots actually make it look like Dany said it to Doreah. I couldn't actually see moving lips, but Doreah turns her head in acknowledgement. It was just a throw away line, or seemed to be, but if one of the babies "loves" Doreah wouldn't that give her some possibility of control over it (should the need present itself) in the future? That could end up for Dany's benefit, or it might not.
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#2916

ScrubMonkey

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 7:42 PM

I took Dany telling the maid the dragon loves her as Dany being nice and also possibly some foreshadowing. Maybe the maid gets killed sometime in the distant future and the dragon torches a lot of people in anger. Maybe in so doing, it takes out something or someone crucial. That is what flashed through my imagination when that happened. That or maybe the maid will be able to tell it to do something, but I didn't see it backfiring on Dany. Her maids seem pretty loyal.

Lord Commander Mormont is the Obi-Wan of the Wall. Mance Rayder will cut him down and Jon will shout NOOOO!!!!


Yes - or someone else will. (But the force will be stronger for it.)

Wight not white, I'm assuming. Confusing.


Yes, wight. We had closed captioning on.

I meant to reply about Ser ThirdPerson's helmet on the water barrel earlier and keep forgetting: I think that was to show just how aware, how perceptive, smart and above all how fast and quiet he is when he moves. He is one dangerous dude. First, how did he know she was headed to get water? And how did he get there before her?

About Wildfire: Was I right in summing it up for hubby as "medieval napalm?"
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#2917

Ursan

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 8:07 PM

Lord Commander Mormont is the Obi-Wan of the Wall. Mance Rayder will cut him down and Jon will shout NOOOO!!!!


And this can only mean that Mance Rayder is Jon's true father!
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#2918

vinnie1912

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 6:48 AM

anothermi: If you watch season one it's established that the baby eating blue eyed dudes are the White Walkers. I thought he said "White" as shorthand for white walker, but it seems he did say 'wight'. I guess that refers to the zombies that are killed by the white walkers and come back to life (it was a zombie ranger that jon killed), but i'm not sure there is a difference.

ScrubMonkey: I'm assuming wild fire is analogous to the medieval incendiary greek fire which was used a lot in naval combat as it burned on the surface of water.

On the dragon scene I saw more in the disapproving tone of the other handmaiden. I think this scene is trying to setup some future conflict between the true Dolthraki handmaiden and the adopted one.
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#2919

skiddy

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 7:33 AM

Scrubmonkey

Her maids seem pretty loyal.


vinnie1912

On the dragon scene I saw more in the disapproving tone of the other handmaiden. I think this scene is trying to setup some future conflict between the true Dolthraki handmaiden and the adopted one.


Agreed with Vinnie, one of the maids seemed like quite a pain to have as a servant; the time they spent on it probably foreshadows future trouble in Qarth (that and the not so professional Dothraki thieves).

The last sentence of Dany made it sound like she will set sail for Westeros sooner than later. That would be regrettable, as I really enjoyed Qarth and would have liked to see more plotting and bizarre stuff there. Qarth is the new King's Landing.

Hopefully, just like Homer's Ulysses, Dany won't reach Westeros anytime soon and will instead travel to new, unknown places first (the "Summer Isles" e.g.) and thereby give us a tour of that fascinating world.

Edited by skiddy, May 3, 2012 @ 7:34 AM.

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#2920

anothermi

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 7:49 AM

I thought he said "White" as shorthand for white walker, but it seems he did say 'wight'. I guess that refers to the zombies that are killed by the white walkers and come back to life (it was a zombie ranger that jon killed), but i'm not sure there is a difference.

Welcome Vinnie1912. I guess I should admit that I reacted more to the humour of hearing white when I remembered the thing Jon killed (with fire) was blue, so I wasn't totally confused by the term - except for not knowing about wight. Homonyms are humour's best friend.

We had quite a bit of speculation on this thread last season about whether the undead guys were the White Walkers as well as the head chopping, body part strewing guys with blue eyes. The show hasn't differentiated them specifically - yet. We tend to be calling the undead guys zombonis (due to the ice connection) or just zombies, but they've gone by many different names here.

I agree that the tension between the dothraki maid (Irri?) and Doreah (from the city of Lys) could be an important plot point, but still think the closeness of Doreah with the dragons will have some plot relevance as well.
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#2921

vinnie1912

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 8:03 AM

i was very interested in who could be the 'allies in westeros' Jora spoke of. The only major house that i can think of would be dorne but we know almost nothing about them other than they make good wine and they seem to hate everyone which is why i think of them.

thankyou anothermi, i've been looking for somewhere like this where i cant talk about the show without the constant risk of being told what will happen for the next 3 seasons. I am super obsessed and have probably seen every episode 6 times or more.
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#2922

Constantinople

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 8:10 AM

Not to beat a (dead?) Smoke Monster Assassin, but another reason Renly's death is a little unsatisfactory is Smokey just happened to show-up and stab Renly after Renly took off his armor.

Was Smokey waiting for Renly to take off his armor, or did Smokey just get lucky? What if Smokey tried to stab Renly when his armor was on and the armor blocked the smoke blade (if it could)? Does Smokey get another chance, or are Smokeys one-and-done?
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#2923

vinnie1912

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 8:17 AM

well we dont know but i'm hoping we never see it again as it would be epic cheese if this thing just roamed about killing all stannis' enemies.
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#2924

HisXLNC

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 8:30 AM

I'm guessing smoke monster could kill regardless of armor. I think the writers had Renly take the armor off first for it to be more believable to others that Brienne killed him. If there was some kind of sheer cut through his armor, that'd be difficult to explain as being Brienne's doing (I'm assuming the armor is good enough not to be pierced directly by a dagger/sword). Without his armor on, the cut through his clothes could just be a dagger's work.
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#2925

stagrose

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 8:46 AM

Who is Mance Rayder?

The last sentence of Dany made it sound like she will set sail for Westeros sooner than later. That would be regrettable, as I really enjoyed Qarth and would have liked to see more plotting and bizarre stuff there. Qarth is the new King's Landing

Is it bad that I don't want Dany to make it to Westeros? I like Dany but I can't understand her wanting for revenge that much, her brother put those thoughts on her and while he was alive she didn't even seem that trusting of him, but as time goes by she seems to grow angrier and bitter. And what does she know about Westeros and its people? However I love how she meets all these different cultures and cities and I find that fascinating. She learns with them and they make her such a stronger person. The moment she makes it to Westeros I think her storyline will lose a bit of its charming.

Not to beat a (dead?) Smoke Monster Assassin, but another reason Renly's death is a little unsatisfactory is Smokey just happened to show-up and stab Renly after Renly took off his armor.

Good point. I didn't notice that but now I remember Brienne was taking off is armor. But does it make a difference for Smoke? Maybe it could kill Renly either way.

I found it nice that Loras knew it had not been Brienne killing Renly. For all his jealousy and hurt ego when Renly made her a kingsguard, he learned that she was really loyal and there was no way she would have hurt Renly. I'm somewhat curious to see if Loras will have more to bring to the show because I have a soft spot for him. And I would like him to face Stannis at this point. I would also like to see him battle, because he's meant to be one of Westeros best knights. Actually, I still want to see a battle scene in Game of Thrones. All these kings, all these wars and we have yet to see fighting.
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#2926

stillshimpy

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 10:03 AM

Thanks for the kind words on the Theon thing, by the way, they were appreciated :-) (particularly on a day where I was busily finding out how not-suited to all things gardening i am...so it was pleasant to read after giving a shrub a really bad pruning job, thank you)

On the Smoke Assassin materializing when Renly's armor was removed, I assumed that was purposeful in that it would seemingly have some sort of sentience. It was direct to a particular person, so I'm assuming it could identify Renly. So I thought it struck because Renly removed his armor. However, thinking it over? It killed with a smoke-dagger through the heart, so I doubt the armor was really holding it back. I thought it made for kind of a neat visual, actually. I do wonder what Renly thought it was and if it looked like Stannis to him.

I know the show has picked no bones about a complete lack of brotherly love between the Baratheons, but without much explanation as to why that was the case. Still, it's sort of a sad thought that Renly might have seen Stannis in the smoke. There's a lack of affection between family members, which is more common than I think books and TV tend to acknowledge (although far from being the norm) and then there's that kind of complete disregard for familial connections that would allow you to contemplate killing your own brother. Holy crow. They were both doing exactly that, of course.

The Baratheons really are the opposite of the Lannisters in that regard though. Although clearly some of it is lip-service (no one is ever going to convince me now that Cersei actually cared if they got Tyrion back), I think most of it is fairly genuine. They put their family connections first and I wince very slightly typing that because I want to say "Jeez, not like that..." but unfortunately it is as often as not "Yeah, like that...".

Still, the complete lack of affection between the Baratheon brothers -- and boy, they were all so pointed about it, even Robert who seemed a fairly warm person in general (not if you're Cersei, but I have a feeling they made each other equally miserable) -- is somewhat remarkable in a story that has so many notes about where your loyalty lies first and foremost while concluding that it is often family first. Theon, for instance.
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#2927

TyrionsKnife

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 10:08 AM

Hello all!

Loooongtime lurker here. I have appreciated all this unspoiled speculation, but have never been moved to post anything of my own because everyone here was so brilliant that I didn't feel I had anything meaningful to contribute to the discussion. Also, I didn't want yet another internet username and password to remember. I have especially loved all the humor present on this thread. (Pig shit, zombonis and Smoke Baby Baratheon, black of air/Deus Ex Vagina are my personal favorites).

However, the "controversy" over the Deus Ex Vagina actually stirred up enough passion in me to demand my thoughts be heard. So I joined up, and, naturally, my acceptance process took so long that somebody (HisXLNC - great name!) came along and eloquently expressed my opinion on the matter. I should have known better!

I don't have too much to add to that, except to say that it isn't really out of character of the show or Stannis. here is why. The show has established that magic is slowing creeping back into the world. Up until now, it has always granted us plenty of warning about it happening and lead up and dramatic tension blah blah blah. But, an unexplored aspect of this is, what would you do if you suddenly found that you had these magical powers? And what if you were a member of a religion that (theoretically, I'm spit-balling here) had a bunch of texts on magic that nobody could ever get to work?

Now throw in that nobody else in Weseros has heard of this religion ("foreign gods" line from Davos)?

This leads me to believe that this Melisandre lady was studying devoutly at temple, discovered she had magic, then stole a secret magic tome and made off for distant lands where she could be alone in her knowledge and supreme in her power. I'm not exactly sure how she latched on to Stannis, but it could be that, being a foreigner and all, she incorrectly assumed that the second oldest of three brothers, the oldest of which was king, would have some power in this kingdom.

As for Stannis, he is a practical man. He realizes that she has magical powers, and knows that it is a powerful weapon all the more powerful because it is secret. So, he does not want to come out and overuse it right away and tip his hand. Hence the assassination attempt.

So, I think that Smoke Baby Baratheon, while convenient, is not truly an example of lazy storytelling. It does evolve naturally from the story (if magic is coming back, it stands to reason that using it in war will be one of the first uses) and makes complete sense in terms of character motivation.

As for a price for this magic. Although the show has not established one at this point, there is obviously some limitations, since Melisandre has to gestate for a minimal amount of time. Furthermore, the Smoke Baby obviously is a one-shot kind of thing, it can't go on a killing rampage. Finally, we don't know that it is unstoppable, just that nobody in the kingdoms knows much about magic anymore and so would not guard against this sort of thing.

Also, "convenient" does not equal poor storytelling. Convenient things happen in real life all the time. I don't know if anyone has ever heard about the Mongol invasion of Japan, but it is an excellent example. The Mongols had conquered everything between and including Eastern Europe and China. They were and still are the largest nation (area-wise) to ever exist. Having just finished the conquest of Chine, their ravenous eyes turned upon the small island nation of Japan. Building a huge Navy to ferry across their hordes of destruction, the Mongols set sail, only to be smashed to smithereens by a freak storm that was so treacherous not a single ship was left standing. This happened after the Mongols had already landed, easily fought off the Japanese that had gathered to repel them, and then returned to their ships to avoid a surprise attack at night.

Undeterred, the Mongols finished off conquering Southern China before amassing another huge navy. They again set sail, and once again they were destroyed (some 4,000 ships and 100,000 men) by a hurricane. How convenient. the Japanese later called these storms "kamikaze" or "divine wind". It should be noted that the hurricanes also devastated the local Japanese population, but hey, at least they weren't conquered by a bunch of Mongols, right?

So, that is all I have to add to the Deus Ex Vagina (I really can't say that enough) debate.

Ok, wait, one more thing. As to why the Smoke Baby waited until that particular moment to attack? Remember how Stannis said Renly had until dawn to reconsider? Well, when we enter to tent to see Cat and Renly talking, it is "dark and full of terrors" outside the tent. However, when we cut back to the front of the tent to see the shadow enter, the flaps flutter and reveal daylight streaming through. So I think that it wasn't waiting for Renly's armor to be removed so much as waiting for dawn and Renly to decide to continue with the battle.

Which begs a more pertinent question; Why was Renly up all night with his armor on, and why was he taking it off right before he was to go into battle?

Also, I echo the vow to join the Spitball Wall, but I can't remember it and am too lazy to look it up.


-Whew! That was quite a monster of a post! Now you see why I try to avoid posting things, since I am, to put it mildly, very longwinded.
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#2928

Garris

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 10:10 AM

skiddy
Agreed with Vinnie, one of the maids seemed like quite a pain to have as a servant; the time they spent on it probably foreshadows future trouble in Qarth (that and the not so professional Dothraki thieves).

Yep, I saw that too they made it very obvious- twice she got pissed. Did anyone else think the two dresses meant something? Here is my take on it from my mini-review (Guess-spoiler warning):

Dany's two dresses, one plain but lovingly mended by her Dothraki servant Irri, the other an expensive gift from Xaro Xhoan Ducksauce, symbolize two identities she must choose between. How long can her Dothraki-ness survive now that Khal Drogo and her child are both gone and they are out of the desert? What will happen to her Dothraki followers in Westeros? If Irri's attitude problem is any indication there could be trouble or treachery coming if she abandons the Dothraki way of life.

Constantinople
Not to beat a (dead?) Smoke Monster Assassin, but another reason Renly's death is a little unsatisfactory is Smokey just happened to show-up and stab Renly after Renly took off his armor.

Agreed. I had predicted it would kill him by smothering him in his sleep. If I had written that scene it would have been something like this:

In Renly's tent he, Loras and Margaery lay intwined in the deep sleep of exhausted lovers. A whispering black smoke drifts in and forms gradually into a man-shape standing over Renly. It reaches a hand towards his mouth and pours itself slowly down his throat. He chokes awake and watches the thing pouring down his throat- his eyes and mouth are wide with terror but his screams are silent.

Does Smokey get another chance, or are Smokeys one-and-done?

I took it from the way it dissipated rather than left the tent that once it did it's work it was history.
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#2929

stillshimpy

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 10:51 AM

Also, "convenient" does not equal poor storytelling.


Welcome,TryionsKnife. I agree with this, plus I think it only becomes an issue if there is an overuse of "Well now, isn't that convenient/damned near miraculous/a coincidence that strains credulity?" All of fiction has artificial constructs and a kind of hyper-reality in which things need to be accomplished within a condensed timeframe. I personally don't think the show has relied on too many coincidences, or overly-convenient fixes. There are always going to be some, of course, besides there is still one more thing with the Smoke Assassin: as much as I was grousing that Melisandre is sort of a vacant characterization at this point, it was good to know that she has direct powers. The only thing we saw her do previously was live through, unharmed, an attempt to poison her. That's a level of power on par with Dany being impervious to fire. So it was at least a bit important in showing what kind of game Melisandre has. That said? No more freaking birth scenes, show, seriously.

Who is Mance Rayder?


Mance Rayder is apparently a former Ranger (man of Night's Watch). We haven't seen him yet. He was referenced last year, but at the time we didn't know he was a Ranger who basically defected. He's proclaimed himself some sort of King North of the Wall, apparently has a fair number of forces at his disposal (seemingly amassed Wildlings) and although there's no basis in the story for this, I keep hoping he has Benjen Stark captive.

I think that's right.

Edited by stillshimpy, May 3, 2012 @ 10:51 AM.

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#2930

TyrionsKnife

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 11:03 AM

That said? No more freaking birth scenes, show, seriously.


Very much yes. While I do not think that Smoke Baby by himself is a detriment to the storyline of the show, the actual execution of said scene is definitely a detriment to the storytelling.

There is obviously something wrong when you are watching a scene with dramatic music that is obviously supposed to be very tense/scary/important and you can't stop yourself from laughing at how ridiculous it all is.
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#2931

Janjan

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 11:33 AM

[Mance] was a Ranger who basically defected. He's proclaimed himself some sort of King North of the Wall,

Played by Marlon Brando maybe?

Good spitball that he has Benjen. And let's hope Jon rescues Benjen, just as Commander Mormont is biting it, thus continuing his revolving door of father figures. Better that than having Benjen pull a Theon and ally with Mance against his brothers. Eeek! And the very worst of all would be to see Jon fighting a blue-eyed Benjen who takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Could Emo Jon bear to throw him into the fire?

As I understand it, Mance and the wildlings are looking to conquer some territory south of the wall where they can escape the WWs. But, according to Bran's nurse, there's no escaping the WWs on their dead horses -- and didn't she say something about white spiders as big as houses? Ick. So "as far south as south goes" may not be far south enough. So I can't figure out what their plan is exactly.

Any spittle on that?

Edited by Janjan, May 3, 2012 @ 11:39 AM.

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#2932

stillshimpy

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 11:42 AM

Played by Marlon Brando maybe?


Heh, as long as no one has to utter a line involving "I love the smell of ______ in the morning" because that could get really gross on this show. Particularly if it's Shae taking a turn at it, since she'll then immediately become amorous. "I love the smell of bloated corpses in the morning! Let's get it on!" Thanks, but.

It was pale spides the size of dogs, by the way. It conjured an image that stayed with me.
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#2933

White Stumbler

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 11:46 AM

So "as far south as south goes" may not be far south enough. So I can't figure out what their plan is exactly.

"So they loaded up the cart and they moved to Casterly... Rock that is. Lannisters, jousting stars."
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#2934

Gwydion

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 12:28 PM

Howdy, folks. New poster, though I sat down over several weeks and read this entire damn thread, so I think I have a grasp of what's been discussed so far.

It's been discussed a little, but I wonder if religion will, in fact, be a larger catalyst than it seems it is so far. I'm also intrigued by the diversity of religions the show has presented us with. In this last episode, Jaqen said that Arya had saved him and his fellow prisoners from the "Red God." If that's something we're meant to take literally, I would conclude that the Red God is simply fire, or that fire is a tool or manifestation of the Red God. Melisandre is also certainly fond of fire, what with the burning of the idols on the beach, her red clothing and hair, and all her talk about the Lord of Light. Also, in the cave with Davos, right before the birthing, she was talking about how shadows are the product of light (fire). That's kind of a spin on the whole light/darkness duality usually seen in fantasy, having both serve the same side. Then again, she likes to remind us that "the night is dark and full of terrors." So I'm not quite sure what to make of her core beliefs just yet.

But the fact remains that both Melisandre and Jaqen are fans of fire, so I would imagine they are speaking of the same deity when they reference the Red God or Lord of Light (fiery heart). Could they be from the same place? If Jaqen sticks around with the Lannisters for long, I wonder if they'll come face-to-face when Stannis makes his move. Curious.

Speaking of gods, here are the fellows I've heard mentioned:

Old Gods (north)
The Seven, and I don't remember if this has been clarified... What are the Seven, anyway? (south, most of Westeros, presumably)
Drowned God (iron islands)
Red God (foreign)
Death? (Syrio Forel)
Great Stallion (Dothraki)

So, by my count, we have 6-ish religions in the story so far, most of which are present in some form in Westeros. It seems like the followers of the Old and New(The Seven?) gods have coexisted for some time, but Melisandre at least seems like a zealot that could ignite an all-out holy war, despite/along with Stannis's purposes. If Stannis does manage to conquer the kingdom, would that just lead to the spread of Melisandre's religion after the other dusts have settled? Surely most people won't willingly abandon whatever religion they've held before very easily.

And then, with our own history of religious warfare in mind, I'd say a battle of succession is the least of the show's concerns.

Thoughts?

Edit: Something else that I've been wondering... What happened to the guy Ned sent to apprehend The Mountain? Looks like... Beric Dondarrion was his name. Very last name in Maximum Taco's list (of course it was, so I'd have to read the whole thing to try to find him). I don't think he's been mentioned at all this season, although that scene in the throne room last season seemed like his deployment was a big deal.

Edited by Gwydion, May 3, 2012 @ 12:35 PM.

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#2935

Constantinople

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 12:48 PM

I know the show has picked no bones about a complete lack of brotherly love between the Baratheons, but without much explanation as to why that was the case.

We know Robert is far too blase about the proper forms of address ("titles, titles").

As for Renly, I'm just guessing he split one too many infinitives.

as long as no one has to utter a line involving "I love the smell of ______ in the morning"


I love the smell of wildfire in the morning - Joffrey Baratheon

Or given that Cersei compares ruling to lying on a bed of weeds and pulling them out one-by-one, perhaps she'll say it.

Why was Renly up all night with his armor on, and why was he taking it off right before he was to go into battle?


I don't know why he had it on all night, but I suppose he took it off to take a short nap. Presumably it took a little time before Littlefinger, Loras & Margaery showed-up in Renly's tent after he died from second-hand smoke inhalation, and even then Littlefinger said it would be an hour before Stannis would arrive.

So I think Stannis's deadline -- emphasis on dead -- wasn't so much that the battle itself would start at dawn, but that there'd be no calling the troops back after daybreak.

So if all the preparations were completed, Renly would have had some time to sleep.

Edited by Constantinople, May 3, 2012 @ 12:48 PM.

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#2936

White Stumbler

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 1:11 PM

Gwydion:

...I sat down over several weeks and read this entire damn thread...


And it is a ponderous tome. Welcome to you and any new voices chiming in!

I am not sure Red God = Lord of Light. A Man seemed to refer to the Red God of Death, iirc.

One additional god - the Great Shepherd that the Lhazareen worship. NOT a cross between a Great Dane and a German Shepherd as far as I know.

Beric Dondarrion seems to have fallen into the same plot hole that has swallowed quite a few other characters. No info re: his fate that I have seen.

I sort of think that GRRM has these super long seasons to avoid having to deal in a realistic manner with timelines, travel times, etc. If the seasons worked as they do IRL and Tyrion, for instance, left the Wall in late summer and arrived in KL just as it was Fall, while Alliser Thorne (another MIA) left around the same time and still hasn't arrived by mid-winter, then that would be a blocking problem that the author would have to address. With super-long seasons this becomes less of an issue, since in his world there is not a strict seasonal indicator of the passage of time.

Or maybe it is dealt with better in the books and the show runners can't be bothered to keep it all straight because of time compressions / expansions that adapting a book like this necessitates.

NOTE to any lurking book readers - please don't clarify: show knowledge only on the Spitball Wall.
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#2937

Lloga

Lloga

    Video Archivist

Posted May 3, 2012 @ 1:24 PM

@Gwydion

About the Seven: Catelyn said "by the mother" in the last episode, as if "the Mother" was a diety. She is from the south and there was a discussion in the ep101 with Ned where I got the impression that Catelyn does not follow the northern gods.

A Mother-role goddess would make sense in a pantheon. Gods often resemble or represent central roles in society or crucial natural forces.

I would keep the Lord of Light and the Red God seperate as long as we don't know they are the same. The red witch uses red very prominently, but I don't think she ever spoke of her God in that terms. I also don't remember her talking about "shadow and fire", but "shadow and light", but maybe I'm wrong here.

Oh, the diety burning scene: Those statues symbolised or depicted the Seven Gods, I'm sure. I'd have to watch it again to maybe identify them. But I remember that when Bran was comatose, Crazy Catelyn built a little dreamcatcher with puppets on it that looked not unlike that statues. And I think there were seven of them too.
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#2938

TyrionsKnife

TyrionsKnife

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 3, 2012 @ 1:29 PM

NOTE to any lurking book readers - please don't clarify: show knowledge only on the Spitball Wall.


Hypothetical Bookwalker: But, you see, it is really rather simple to explain and doesn't ruin anything...

Oh, you silly Bookwalkers. Always so helpful.

Presumably it took a little time before Littlefinger, Loras & Margaery showed-up in Renly's tent after he died from second-hand smoke inhalation, and even then Littlefinger said it would be an hour before Stannis would arrive.


Yes, that makes a bit of sense. I suppose he may have wanted to keep his armor on all night during battle prep because it made him look good.

I know the show has picked no bones about a complete lack of brotherly love between the Baratheons, but without much explanation as to why that was the case.


We know Robert is far too blase about the proper forms of address ("titles, titles").

As for Renly, I'm just guessing he split one too many infinitives.


Another thought...

Why was Stannis in charge of Dragonstone and Renly running around the Baratheon lands? Since Stannies is #2, wouldn't that make him the one that should be in the Baratheon homeland, running things for his brother who is away playing king?

It's possible that Stannis and Robert may have had a sibling rivalry (and remember, Stannis said that Robert was not his "beloved" brother). And Robert may have slighted him intentionally in regards to what he was in charge of.

(I'm also assuming that Dragonstone is an old Targaryan(sp? not gonna look it up) place that was given to Stannis because, well, dragon.)

And, therefore, Renly may just have been a victim of that dynamic. Maybe Robert always favored him, so he liked Robert, and because of this favoritism, Stannis always loathed him. And in return for the loathing, Renly loathed him right back.

Still, that is still a bit of a stretch to get to the point where you would be fine with killing your brother. Maybe I could see it for Stannis, but for Renly it doesn't really explain why he would be so blase about killing his brother.


@Lloga

Good sleuthing on the seven gods. I had completely missed that mention about the "Mother" but it makes sense. My only question is:
If Cat and Brienne, both Southerners, worship the same gods (the Seven), why would they need to swear on both the old and the new? Unless the New Gods are different from the Seven?

EDIT:

Edit: Something else that I've been wondering... What happened to the guy Ned sent to apprehend The Mountain? Looks like... Beric Dondarrion was his name. Very last name in Maximum Taco's list (of course it was, so I'd have to read the whole thing to try to find him). I don't think he's been mentioned at all this season, although that scene in the throne room last season seemed like his deployment was a big deal.


For that matter, what happened to Selmy, the guard that Joffrey fired and called everyone a bunch of names? I was certain he was going to join the Starks, but you would think he would have found them by now, no? Methinks it is as WhiteStumbler suggests, those treacherous plotholes. He is, of course, right next to Mr. Dondarrion on the list.

Edited by TyrionsKnife, May 3, 2012 @ 1:48 PM.

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#2939

Ursan

Ursan

    Channel Surfer

Posted May 3, 2012 @ 1:41 PM

It's possible that Stannis and Robert may have had a sibling rivalry (and remember, Stannis said that Robert was not his "beloved" brother). And Robert may have slighted him intentionally in regards to what he was in charge of.


That's a good point. Renly was in Robert's small council but not Stannis. It's very possible Robert favored the youngest sibling the most and Stannis had that middle-child complex.
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#2940

stillshimpy

stillshimpy

    Stalker

Posted May 3, 2012 @ 1:50 PM

That's a good point. Renly was in Robert's small council but not Stannis. It's very possible Robert favored the youngest sibling the most and Stannis had that middle-child complex.


In the scene after Robert hits Cersei and essentially sides with Ned, before heading off on the Stomp Hunt of Doom, Robert tells Ned, "I never loved my brothers..." and goes on to say (more or less), but he does love Ned. He gives him back the Hand's pin, goes off on the fateful hunt and before leaving tells Ned if he takes that off again, he'll give it to Jaime Lannister.

Renly had already decided to move against Robert before he died, at Loras' urging and on that hunt, Renly sort of has it out with Robert. So there seems to have been no love loss between any of the Baratheon brothers.
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