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#14862006

TWoP Dietrich

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 6:59 PM

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#2551

Chysalis

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 1:05 AM

Someone posted earlier that, whenever they start to like a character, that character dies.



I was one of the people who said that. So I will now really really really like Balon Greyjoy. It is not really his fault to be a little grumpy. After all, all he wants is the best for his dear lovely son Theon (Whom I also deepy love). He has trouble opening up but I'm sure he is filled with heart-shaped candy and kisses.

Did we ever find out whose children Maester Aemon meant when he said the rebels slaughtered "even the little children"? Were they Rhaegar's or Aerys's children? If they were Rhaegar's, then he probably was married before he, er, encountered Lyanna. So if he's Jon's father, Jon would indeed be a bastard.


This is why I pictured Rhaegar to be married. But I have to admit the the timelines sometimes confuse me. Especially because I'm not sure how old everyone is supposed to be.

Robb - Is he seventeen? (That would make me crushing on him SO WRONG!)
Jon - Is supposed to be the same age, right?
Theon - came as little boy to Winterfell so he is older than Robb and Jon?
Dany - And here it gets tricky. When was Dany born? Was she even born in Westeros? If yes, why did they even kill little kids but not Danys mother (Since she is supposed to be younger than Jon and the Rest). I am not saying it is not possible. It is just very confusing.
Viserys - Was how much older than Dany?

Also, if at the time of the rebellion Rhaegar was an adult and Dany was teeny, possibly in utero, then we do have to wonder about Mrs. Targaryan's concept of family planning


It is the same concept that Walder Frey has. It doesn't have to be the same mother. All that counts is, that it happened within a marriage. How many sisters did Aerys have?
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#2552

Arutha

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 5:09 AM

I have a little off current topic question. Why did the party beyond the wall take Sam with them? I mean he is Master Aemon's steward, shouldn't he stick with him on the Wall? And let's admit it, he's more of a liability than an asset. Or is the hundred-years old (give or take) blind maester also with them?

Edited by Arutha, Apr 12, 2012 @ 5:10 AM.

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#2553

Lloga

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 5:43 AM

Okay, here comes a rather dirty spitball:

I was pondering about the Tyrion/Littlefinger dilemma. Most of my reflections are meta-level driven here:
Tyrion is now fixed to KL for a while. The dynamics with Joffrey, Cersei, maybe Varys and other KLers is just too attractive. Also, Tywin will be busy with fighting a war against Robb and the Baratheons for a while and there is nobody else with the capabilities to rule in his stead in KL. Tyrion cannot die for aforementioned reasons, and also because he is the lead character of the show *.

Littlefinger: He won't die soon, because he is introduced as the major villain of the series and the show spend a huge amount of screen time (all those whore scenes) to sketch his character.

Now, one could argue: But they killed Ned, the lead/major character in the first season. Yes, but this was a completely different matter. Ned wasn't a real character, he had no depth and therefore there was no characterization of him. He was basically only the viewer's eye. He was a necessary tool to introduce us viewers to the show, but he in himself was shallow.

Okay, back to Littlefinger and Tyrion. I already argued why I think they cannot co-exist in KL. Tyrion is justifiably paranoid of the backstabbing people in KL and tries to get it under control by eliminating those he cannot control. That is what his father basically told him to do ("heads on spikes" or something like that). Littlefinger on the other hand likes to have incompetent and easy to manipulate people around him (like the Starks, or Joffrey). Tyrion cannot be bought, he cannot be outfoxed easily, he cannot be threatened. These two will not be able to get along, even if Tyrion does not yet know about the "framing Tyrion" incident.

I think there will be tension, but in the end, because both are plot-armoured against death, one has to leave the scene and turn up at a different site. As I said before, Tyrion is both from a inner and meta perspective bound to stay in KL, I think LF has to leave.

And now comes the speculation:

Option one: Littlefinger will become Warden of the North, after Greyjoy attack the North. I'm not sure how it will play out, but there must be some communication between Balon and Tywin for Balon to get his crown. However, neither Balon nor Tywin will want to try to "hold" the North. They need somebody to that for them. Now that Robb is a traitor and the Lannisters don't want them to rule the North anymore, there is no need of marrying Joffrey to Sansa. She is married to Littlefinger instead (look back to S1) and Littlefinger is assigned as the new Warden of the North.

Option two: Littlefinger barely escapes an attempt of Tyrion to kill him and flees to Renly. Renly is opportunistic, they know each other, they don't seem to be too disgusted by each other and they have common enemies. Littlefinger brings some decisive knowledge/device from KL to help Renly in besieging KL and is given the Tully lands in return.
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#2554

skiddy

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:44 AM

Interesting theory, Lloga. I don't necessarily agree with your primary assumption that "because both are plot-armoured against death, one has to leave the scene and turn up at a different site". That rivalry is great material for the show/story, so I guess the writer(s) would want them both in KL for some time more.

However in the long run it would make sense, and you are right that it would be more likely that LF is the one to leave. Your option 1 is very appealing: LF sent back north (his House seems to come from a Tully, Stark or Vale area) as a leader after Greyjoy has plundered the moreless empty Winterfell, serves as stepfather to kids (Bran and Rickon) whose father he had killed and takes Cat as wife (HBO cringe!). 2 issues though: first it depends on how irreplaceble one considers him as master of coins (see debate some pages before) and second it implies that Robb and his whole army suffer a massive loss, to the point that they can't even fall back on Winterfell..

Edited by skiddy, Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:45 AM.

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#2555

ChocButterfly

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 8:58 AM

I have a little off current topic question. Why did the party beyond the wall take Sam with them? I mean he is Master Aemon's steward, shouldn't he stick with him on the Wall? And let's admit it, he's more of a liability than an asset. Or is the hundred-years old (give or take) blind maester also with them?

Well, they took him in case things go really bad, and they end up starving...yeah, he'll probably die first, so he'll be their emergency "supply". I assume that's why they took him, he's got enough meat to sustain them for the trip back to the wall.
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#2556

LevitateMe

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:17 AM

I can't see LF wanting to take a route to power that would send him somewhere as remote as Winterfell-- he just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would be well prepared for a Northern winter. We know he is from somewhere near Catlyn who is Southern. But I do agree that LF and Tyrion coexisting in KL is a disaster waiting to happen. Team Tyrion!

Why would you say Dany's his niece, though? Are you confusing Jorah's father with Maester Aemon?


TyrianL yes when Master Aemon gave Jon the Varerian steel sword at the end of the last season, he said it was meant for his son (?) who brought dishonor to the family. Then when Dani "birthed" the dragons and Jorah called her blood of my blood it occurred to me that he is the one who the sword was meant for. Which would make him a Targarian and related (somehow) to Dani, right?

With regards to the questions about the Targarian children being slaughtered, I think this is backstory that without reading the books we can speculate on a lot and not get anywhere. But I do think it seems the Mad King had both very young children as well as adult children, who may or may not have been married/had children of their own. I think.

StillShimpy as usual across various boards you have opened my eyes to something. I didn't watch this show last season so wasn't part of the initial discussion on who sent the assassin for Bran. Until I read your comments and thought about it I didn't see how it could be anyone but the Lannister twins. You have sucessfully convinced me that Joffrey is a real and viable option. He didn't become a sadist overnight, he is just currently empowered to act on every whim. He really took offense to the double slap and generally being ordered around by Tyrion while in Winterfell. And then on the way back to KL the Starks pissed him off even more with the whole butcher's kid/wolf incident. He made a whole speech to his mom about someone needs to show the Northerners who's boss, etc. So.... I can get behind that it was Joffrey.

With regards to when we will have answers on some of these things-- I do think (assuming the series goes on long enough) we will get them. Not in the form of an expository speech by Joffrey on "why I decided to send an assassin to kill some kid" but I think this show is too good to leave Chekov's guns that were precursors to major events lying around. And with regards to Jon's parents-- I disagree that with Ned dead there is no one who knows the truth. Master Aemon may know the truth. We know Dani and her wretched brother somehow got out, perhaps there are more Targarians in the world than we know now.... so I wouldn't at all assume that book is closed or isn't going to be addressed. Or that Jon will never leave the Wall. If any of this is true... or if things go really bad for the Starks (which I think most everyone seems to agree is bound to happen)... then I can see him being allowed to leave the Wall without breaking his vows on an exception/emergency basis.

Edited by LevitateMe, Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:20 AM.

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#2557

skiddy

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:42 AM

LevitateMe:

TyrianL yes when Master Aemon gave Jon the Varerian steel sword at the end of the last season, he said it was meant for his son (?) who brought dishonor to the family.

No it is Lord Commander Mormont (Jorah's dad) who gives the sword to Jon. Aemon is the blind one.


Question on the whole Rhaegar/Lyana's theory: who's left to brek the news to Jon? Not sure Aemon would know about it..
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#2558

Lloga

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 10:14 AM

I can't see LF wanting to take a route to power that would send him somewhere as remote as Winterfell-- he just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would be well prepared for a Northern winter. We know he is from somewhere near Catlyn who is Southern. But I do agree that LF and Tyrion coexisting in KL is a disaster waiting to happen. Team Tyrion!


Why would LF retreat from KL: In KL, he did what he could to rise to power, but he can only rise to a level still much lower than the real powerhouses, otherwise he would have to be removed. That is why he has to get out of KL anyway if there are some players with brains left. Now, the arrival of Tyrion might me a moderator to that move.

The North might not the most pleasant place, but it would make Littlefinger one of the most powerful man in the 7K, something impossible for a man of his birth otherwise. Not to mention it would put him on one level with Catelyn, and just the irony of replacing Ned Stark would be too much for LF to deny it.

The Riverlands are less attractive with all the war going on, and Tyrion promised the Vale to the Shagga Gang, otherwise Littlefinger could go there, marry Lysa and bring the knights of the Vale into the war: on the Lannister side (or whoever LF decides to back up suddenly). And with "bring" I mean "send" of course.
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#2559

Constantinople

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 10:32 AM

I was pondering about the Tyrion/Littlefinger dilemma. Most of my reflections are meta-level driven here:

Tyrion is now fixed to KL for a while. The dynamics with Joffrey, Cersei, maybe Varys and other KLers is just too attractive. Also, Tywin will be busy with fighting a war against Robb and the Baratheons for a while and there is nobody else with the capabilities to rule in his stead in KL. Tyrion cannot die for aforementioned reasons, and also because he is the lead character of the show *.

Now, one could argue: But they killed Ned, the lead/major character in the first season. Yes, but this was a completely different matter. Ned wasn't a real character, he had no depth and therefore there was no characterization of him. He was basically only the viewer's eye. He was a necessary tool to introduce us viewers to the show, but he in himself was shallow.


I disagree that Ned was a shallow character, though I do think he had a rather simplistic ethical code at times that in practice, often resulted in the greatest harm for the great number. But Ned had to die to further conflict. If he's alive, Robb has much less excuse to rebel.

In contrast, as you noted, it makes sense for Tyrion to stay alive (for now) to fuel further conflict between Tyrion and Cersei (and others)

So the storyteller's & viewers' desire for drama/conflict kills Ned & spares Tyrion (at least for now).


Option one: Littlefinger will become Warden of the North


Although Littlefinger is ambitious (to put it mildly), I think he'd rather be Master of Coin & Whore in King's Landing than be Warden of the North. And even Cersei thinks an an outsider cannot hold the North.

Option two: Littlefinger barely escapes an attempt of Tyrion to kill him and flees to Renly. Renly is opportunistic, they know each other, they don't seem to be too disgusted by each other and they have common enemies. Littlefinger brings some decisive knowledge/device from KL to help Renly in besieging KL and is given the Tully lands in return.



I could see that, those based on their banter during last season's tournament when Littlefinger bet on the Mountain & Renly bet on his boyfriend (Littlefinger: And when will you have your friend?), I don't think Renly cares for Littelfinger, and wouldn't be Renly's first choice.
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#2560

Janjan

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:33 AM

Well, they took [Sam] in case things go really bad, and they end up starving... he's got enough meat to sustain them for the trip back to the wall.

It looks like mostly fat, but that's a Good Thing in the cold.

So where is Thorne anyway? Right, he's slower than a raven, but consider: Yoren has been to KL, conferred with Ned (before Ned sent a man (not a raven) to Stannis), picked through the dungeons, saved Arya, organized the logistics of the return trip, and got part way back to the wall. Stannis, meanwhile, got the hand-delivered message from Ned, pondered (and meticulously edited) his options, and is part-way through making preparations for war. And Thorne is still on the road? Methinks the actor got another job.

Or else, after Jon passed the petty-tyrant test, the story didn't need him anymore so they dropped him down a plot hole.
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#2561

White Stumbler

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:39 AM

Arutha:

Why did the party beyond the wall take Sam with them?


Part of the Nights Watch code is that they must have a slightly overweight brother along with them on every expedition as comic relief. Actually, I think there was some offhand comment about how he was along, in part, to care for the sledge of ravens.

Is anyone else at all concerned about this reconnoiter-in-force beyond the Wall? Dozens of villages abandoned (due to WWs?), King Rayder raising an army (aimed at WWs, or points south?), and a small band (100? 200?) of Nights Watchmen are wandering around between the anvil and the hammer.

skiddy:

No it is Lord Commander Mormont (Jorah's dad) who gives the sword to Jon. Aemon is the blind one.


Correct. Aemon is the blind maester who seems to know his way pretty well around a meat cleaver, and the sword that LCM gave Jon (called Longclaw) was originally intended for Mormont's son, Jorah.

Janjan:

So where is Thorne anyway?

I hope that he is still on the way to KL, and that my dream of an undead hand crawling up Joffrey to slap him silly is still a possibility. Joff needs a good slapping at least every other episode.

Edited by White Stumbler, Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:40 AM.

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#2562

LevitateMe

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:22 PM

Thx for the clarification all. So Jorah is Mormont's son. And Aemon is the blind one who is a Targarian who declined the throne and it passed to his younger brother, the Mad King. Clearly I got those pieces of information confused/need to pay better attention to the not subtle differences btwn older guys!
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#2563

stillshimpy

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:44 PM

So where is Thorne anyway?


I hope that he is still on the way to KL, and that my dream of an undead hand crawling up Joffrey to slap him silly is still a possibility. Joff needs a good slapping at least every other episode.


Since he seems to have not managed to make it to King's Landing, I've been sort of assuming that Yoren, Arya, Gendry and the rest bound for the Wall gang are going to find his body here shortly. I think the series really tried to tell a story that could have been contained within the first season, if the show had not been renewed, so that we could get a sense of what might happen. That or maybe the first book in the series did that.

Particularly Dany was in a position that seemed quite different at the end of last season than it did at the beginning of this season. Last season she literally rose from the ashes, stood and really looked like she was going to be the ultimate victor if the story ended right there. Let the boys scrabble around in the dirt of Westeros in a fight for the tarnished crown, it wouldn't matter because she was going to win. She was the only one in possession of mystical creatures that ought to have the ability to defeat armies of the dead with fire from the sky. That was the sense that I got as the final credits rolled last season. That Thorne was riding to King's Landing with the not-dead appendage and all the games would be put on hold as they had to come together to try and defeat an ancient terror...and that only Dany was in possession of anything that stood a chance.

Cut to this year and Dany is in dire straits, in a place called The Red Waste (just in case we missed that she's taken up residence in "it-sucks-to-be-us-ville") and apparently whereas it's a good thing to have dragons in the long run, having infant dragons (finicky eaters on top of that) won't even light a horse-tallow candle in terms of fire power. Thorne evidently didn't make it to King's Landing yet -- although that might not mean anything, since the Wall Wagon Train is still busily trundling along, en route to said Wall, so perhaps they are going to bump into Thorne on the slowest horse in the world -- and the men of the Wall have encountered the world's creepiest dad who may have a pact with the White Walkers.

I'm sort of assuming that the story is still going where I thought it might be at the end of last season. Yes, there's going to be a war for various crowns, lots of power plays and presumably loss of life, but sooner or later the White Walkers are going to raise the dead, causing all and sundry to band together to try and defeat an other worldly power. So that if someone like Robb makes it through the season along with someone like Jaime, it's going to be a case of "Yes, we will get back to the pressing business of killing each other ...just as soon as we band together in order to defeat whatever that Wall was built to keep out in the first place."

By the way, I've been trying to figure out what the heck Melisandre could be, other than the seemingly obvious sorceress. She seems like she must be allied with something that isn't quite human (sort of like Craster has something going on with the White Walkers). Since the start of the tale there has been this vein of "White Walkers? Oh, I suppose you believe in Ghouls and Grunts" (or whatever terminology Tyrion used...sounded like stuff from Hogwarts...Snarls and Grumps, or something). Well, White Walkers are real. Dragons are back. What else might be? Could Melisandre be something other than human? I mean, this is a show with some unlikely hair colors, but so far even the white blond of the Targs is actually found on real people. Melisandre's hair on the other hand? Is only found on people with access to hair dye. I wonder if she's supposed to be some Siren from the sea or something?

Also, as to why Sam was taken with the men of the Wall, off to find out what happened to Benjen Stark or die trying? I think he's there because he was the only man of the Watch who knew anything about how to deal with White Walkers. Apparently as the resident reader, it was Sam's brain, not his bulk that made taking him along advisable.

Edited by stillshimpy, Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:46 PM.

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#2564

ScrubMonkey

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:23 PM

or whatever terminology Tyrion used...sounded like stuff from Hogwarts...Snarls and Grumps, or something


Grumpkins and Snarks, I think. Which is what Cersei mocked Tyrion with last episode. I don't see him as someone who believes in follies, myself. I am not sure Cersei is a very good judge of character. Or maybe she just hates him too much to see him clearly.

Melisandre's hair on the other hand? Is only found on people with access to hair dye. I wonder if she's supposed to be some Siren from the sea or something?


I think it's just a really bad wig. It looks like it was taken off a My Little Pony.

They should put her in red-gold hair. That would go great with her complexion. That shade she has on is more like what I see in some middle aged Beverly Hills matrons. Some sort of weird henna. I also had a punky friend who dyed her hair a similar shade with Punky Colors. But, I think Melisandre is supposed to be a natural flame-head so, bad choice on Show's part. Real hair has more than one color in it.

I'm not good at political intrigue tracking even in this fictional world. But, I don't see Littlefinger ruling anything. He isn't really that imaginative - he's a bean (and whore) counter.
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#2565

TyrionLannister

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:31 PM

I think the series might just end with Daenerys on the Iron Throne. Although I'd love to see Tyrion!

And Aemon is the blind one who is a Targarian who declined the throne and it passed to his younger brother, the Mad King.


I believe he's actually the Mad King's uncle.

So that if someone like Robb makes it through the season along with someone like Jaime, it's going to be a case of "Yes, we will get back to the pressing business of killing each other ...just as soon as we band together in order to defeat whatever that Wall was built to keep out in the first place."


I'd love to see those two team up!

Also, as to why Sam was taken with the men of the Wall, off to find out what happened to Benjen Stark or die trying? I think he's there because he was the only man of the Watch who knew anything about how to deal with White Walkers.


Yeah, I think this might be it.

Littlefinger: He won't die soon, because he is introduced as the major villain of the series


Really? I didn't quite think of it that way. Varys could also be a villain, due to his Targaryen invasion plot with Illyrio, except he seems to have relatively "good intentions", since he claims to be "serving the realm" because "someone has to".

Edited by TyrionLannister, Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:37 PM.

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#2566

anothermi

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:37 PM

<sigh> Going for a second try with this post. Last one got lost in never ending limbo.

I'm getting frustrated <again> with the vagueness of time frames with this show.

I posted a couple of days about about this issue:

So where is Thorne anyway?

... and the whereabouts of the zombi hand. The issue came to mind because the small council discussed a scroll containing a request from Commander Mormont for more men at the wall. "Cold winds are rising - and so are the dead." (or words to that effect) (This was after the Lannister cousin brought Robb's demands and Cercei tore them up.)
Cercei points out they can't spare anyone but Tyrion counters that Commader Mormont doesn't lie. Cercei askes if he's started to believe in grumpkins and snarks.

I thought (erroneously it turns out) that Thorne must have arrived because his mission was to bring the zombi hand and ask for more men to defend the wall against the new threat. I wondered where he was and what the hell happened to that very convincing hand? It turns out (on re-watch of the section) that the scroll from Mormont came by raven-gram.

So... time wise... Ser Alliser Thorne was sent with the hand-FOR-the-king immediately after the zomboni attack on Mormont. During the day prior to the attack, the Wall received the news that Ned was in prison for being a traitor. Thorne taunted Jon Snow who attacked him and was confined to quarters, but that same night he saved Commander Mormont from the Zombi. Ned was not yet dead when Thorne rode for King's Landing.

How much time was supposed to have passed between that, Ned losing his head and Mormont's decision to ride out beyond the wall and search for Benjen Stark (and find out What.The.Hell.Is.Going.On.Out.There!)?

At the Wall, it could have been just the next night that Jon Snow made his failed attempt at desertion and a day or two after that (they needed some time to pack supplies) was when they all road out beyond the Wall.

As far as the Wall is concerned, not a lot of time has passed since Thorne departed for King's Landing with the Zombie hand. But Tyrion wasn't sent to King's landing until after Jaime was captured and Ned lost his head. He was, however, in King's Landing when the raven from Mormont arrived asking for more men. When would Mormont have written and sent that raven? After they rode out beyond the Wall or before? If before, that was one slow raven. If after, why did he wait? And why didn't he mention that Ser Thorne was on his way with proof of the walking dead?

It just seems that a lot more time passed everywhere else. Enough time for Tyrion to get from the Riverlands (or Lannister turf near there) to King's Landing and attend a couple of meetings. Why would Thorne be so far behind him? I know he had to come all the way from the Wall, but he started before Tyrion did, he would have been on horseback and (I would think - but I may be wrong) motivated to get to King's Landing as fast as possible. Argh! This is making me crazy.
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#2567

Constantinople

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 7:49 PM

So where is Thorne anyway?


All I know is you can't spell Game of Thrones without Thorne.
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#2568

anothermi

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 8:27 PM

Dany was in a position that seemed quite different at the end of last season than it did at the beginning of this season. Last season she literally rose from the ashes, stood and really looked like she was going to be the ultimate victor if the story ended right there.


Yeah, Shimpy. IIRC we thought she was going to be a great mom - that she had things figured out. Now it turns out she doesn't innately know how to raise big, strong, fierce dragons. All she knows is what Viserys told her and (as she said herself) he didn't know anything.

As a spitball only, I would think that, yes, dragons may eat meat, but baby dragons may eat what baby's eat - milk. I kind of thought that Dany might actually nurse them (especially the way the one was shown cradled in her arms during the big reveal in last year's finale). She should still be lactating shouldn't she? I know I'm a bit hung up on this time line thing, but I don't think it has been that long since she gave birth (to the still born? Rheago) and just because her baby didn't live doesn't mean she wouldn't lactate.

I'm serious here. She is clearly a Targarean dragon - like her brother (Rheagar) and father before her - so I would think that her breast milk would be custom made for the little blighters. We know that their hot little burps can't harm her, and I can't remember if they've even got teeth yet, so I don't see a down side. I wonder why SHE hasn't thought of it? (I can think of plenty of reasons why the others wouldn't even consider the possibility.) ;-)

Edited by anothermi, Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:47 PM.

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#2569

abelard369

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:21 PM

Just jumping in to support the notion that Varys may have been planning the Targeryen invasion all along. Actually that completely explains the Wedding Planner's part in the whole Dany-Dothraki hookup. Now that arranged marriage can completely be taken on face value, and Varys' having a spy (Jorah) in the Targeryen camp makes sense. I think we may be able to interpret Varys' "I serve the realm" as his justification for bringing back the Targeryens: that dynasty did manage to unite the 7K and rule continuously for 300 years without interruption. So they were the last really successful rulers. Maybe that's what Varys wants for the realm, some security, some continuity. Kings you can count on. As long as they're not cray-cray and burning good Northern Wardens in the throne room.

Jorah may have been bought off by Varys with a promise of amnesty - Jorah wants to go home to Westeros. And as others have argued here, all Dany has ever said (as a wish of her own) is that she wants to go home. So the Varys angle explains why Jorah was spying for Varys, why Jorah has been supporting Dany's cause. And then Jorah was just won over by Dany, maybe because they have in common the fact that they both feel so out-of-place, and both think that "home" is this place across the Narrow Sea, if only they could just get there.

Varys therefore was helping Ned (a bit, anyway - he gave him some water, some information, told him to reconcile himself to taking the Black, and when Ned was on the scaffold, Varys supported the Wall idea for Ned) b/c Varys was never *against* Ned. Littlefinger was obvs against Ned, probably for a million reasons but maybe primarily b/c of Cat. Cercei was against Ned b/c of his knowing about the twincest. Joffrey, duh. But Varys wasn't against Ned - he had no reason to hate him - and so he helped him. In Varys' mind, Ned wouldn't have been able to stop a Targeryen return, and perhaps that's the only thing Varys truly cares about.

Oh and here's one Targeryen thing that never occurred to me before: What if the reason that Maester Aemon refused his rightful inheritance - the throne, the kingship over the 7K - is that he disagreed with the whole incest policy of the family? Maybe he figured that if he went to the Wall, his family couldn't yell at him for choosing not to mate and reproduce with his sister.

ALSO, what if Maester Aemon is a DRAGON?! It would be cool if there were some scary zombie encounter and Aemon were able to use his fireproofness in the fight against them somehow.

Edited by abelard369, Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:24 PM.

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#2570

GypsyBee

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 10:32 PM

Did Aemon give up the throne, as in, he was the heir? I assumed he was one of the minor royals who are somewhat expected to go to the wall. If he was the heir, wow, that's huge...his taking the oath was an act that resulted in not one but two civil wars (presumably no Mad King therefore no King Robert therefore no King Joffrey) and so much death and suffering.
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#2571

Beanpurchaser

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 10:47 PM

ALSO, what if Maester Aemon is a DRAGON?! It would be cool if there were some scary zombie encounter and Aemon were able to use his fireproofness in the fight against them somehow.


By setting himself alight and bumrushing a pack of zombies? :)
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#2572

skiddy

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 2:27 AM

anothermi: have you considered the possibility that Thorne might have turned into the raven?
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#2573

anothermi

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 3:27 AM

anothermi: have you considered the possibility that Thorne might have turned into the raven?


Heh. ;-)

If we can have dragons, and if Bran (and possibly Rickon) might be some kind of seers... and someone like Joffrey can be king? I guess Thorne turning into a raven is not impossible. And that might explain what happened to the zombi hand. It would take a lot of energy for a raven to carry it, so it probably ended up as raven dinner.
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#2574

skiddy

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 3:45 AM

Speaking of Bran and Rickon and your mentioning of them being "seers": what about that scene seen from Bran's wolf eyes? Maybe one day Bran will be able to remote-control his wolf into battle and make up for his lack of legs..
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#2575

stillshimpy

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:59 AM

Given that it turns out Mance Rayder was once part of the Night's Watch, maybe Thorne will turn out to be in league with him and will have never gone to King's Landing? There has to be some reason that Thorne seems to have disappeared and one would be that he never set off for King's Landing. Another would be that he met with an accident on the way and yet another would be that he just hasn't made it there yet. That last seems the least likely to me, although it's difficult to tell. Yoren, Arya and Gendry's wagon train to the Wall seems to have not made great progress as of yet. That could be because they are moving so slowly. After all, the Goldcloaks had time to catch up with them rather quickly. Maybe they are continuing to stop along the way to pick up more recruits?

It seems as if Thorne should have had time to make it to King's Landing by now, so it seems reasonable to assume that there's some reason he hasn't. Thorne was really a rather nasty piece of work last season. He really seemed as if he wanted to get Jon Snow into all kinds of trouble and it made little sense. It would be known that Jon is Benjen Stark's nephew, wouldn't it? Wasn't there something about Mance Rayder not liking Benjen Stark -- or am I just remembering Craster saying that Benjen had looked down upon him? Either way, that's the only thing I can think of that might be a story reason beyond "Dead, killed by the creepy hand that won't rot" or "murdered on his way there", he's with Mance Rayder and has no loyalty to the Night's Watch any longer.

I'm serious here. She is clearly a Targarean dragon - like her brother (Rheagar) and father before her


Again, with the passage of time (or lack of clarity on the passage of time), it's hard to say, anothermi, but it seems unlikely that Dany needs to nurse the dragons. They were hatched and so I assume they are closer to birds/reptiles than mammals. I also don't think the Targaryens are necessarily literal dragons, despite having the "Dragon" thing attached to the various fireproof Targs. They may just have a trait -- being immune to fire -- that makes them natural dragon masters, without having actual dragon's blood, but I don't know. Since it's the fantasy genre, anything seems possible.

I thought the scene of Dany talking about how Varys didn't know anything about dragons was simply to establish that instead of having a world-leveling force right at her disposal, Dany currently has rather helpless little creatures who are more of a burden, than a boon. I figured it was just a way of showing that despite the rising-from-the-ashes scene, Dany has quite a way to go before she can kick all kinds of butt in this story.
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#2576

White Stumbler

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 12:39 PM

anothermi:
Adding to the confusion regarding times is that there appears to be two ways from the North to KL (and back) - via road (the Kingsroad), and via boat (Ros said she was going to White Harbor [?] to take a boat to KL).

*sigh*

I guess if it is important, Thorne will reappear. If not, he is off hanging out with Ser Barristan Selmy, Uncle Benjen Stark, Beric Dondarrion (the knight Ned sent to capture The Mountain and bring him to justice), Syrio Forel (maybe?), the member of Ned's household sent to Dragonstone with the twincest message for Stannis, and Nymeria in some alternate universe. I would include Renly and Ser Loras Tyrell, but I think they will certainly reappear in the next few episodes. The rest I am not certain we will ever see again.

I really want Selmy back - the actor was great in the role, and his 'here's my badge and gun, asshole' scene in the throne room was just awesome. Plus, he seemed honorable and would be horrified (I think) that the Kingsguard was reduced to sycophants willing to slap around a girl or forcibly drown a knight in wine.

Abelard369:

So the Varys angle explains why Jorah was spying for Varys, why Jorah has been supporting Dany's cause. And then Jorah was just won over by Dany, maybe because they have in common the fact that they both feel so out-of-place

I like it and it seems to all fit, except for this - why, then, did Varys launch the poisoned wine attack on Dany? I know the wine-attack has never been explicitly linked to Varys, but I have always had the premise that the attempted poisoning was what Varys meant when Ned asked him to call off the attempt on Dany's life and Varys told Ned 'those birds have flown.'

stillshimpy:
Yup, I have dragons pegged as more reptile than mammal. Dany needs to chew up some meat (horse heart?) and regurgitate it for the triplets.

Thorne was really a rather nasty piece of work last season. He really seemed as if he wanted to get Jon Snow into all kinds of trouble and it made little sense.

Yeah, at first I thought it was the typical drill sergeant dynamic where the hard-assed instructor creates unit cohesion by uniting the recruits through their hatred of him, but there was something a lot more nasty and personal by the end of the season. Maybe Thorne had some sort of beef with Benjen prior to Jon's arrival?

By setting himself alight and bumrushing a pack of zombies? :)

The night is dark and full of terrors; but the fire burns them all away.
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#2577

Arutha

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 1:09 PM

The night is dark and full of terrors


You mentioning Mel's motto reminded me of something. When Theon stood in front of his father they seemed to say some saying too (Balon and Yara(?) together and Theon joined after a beat). It sounded something like 'What is dead can never die'? Seems like an interesting motto for what seems to be essentially a nation of pirates. Also it's not their official motto since we heard that in an episode in the first half of Season 1 where Bran with Winterfell maester have a lesson of Houses and their mottos. I think it was 'We do not sow.' I wonder how important these mottos are for each house and if they'll come into play at some time. Starks' 'Winter is coming' has already done so, both literally and metaphorically.
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#2578

ScrubMonkey

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 1:45 PM

I think "what is dead may never die" was sort of a prayer or thing to say when the name of an honorable dead person is mentioned - sort of like "rest in peace." I don't think it was their family motto.

I have a feeling we will find out what dragons eat in a gross way.

I know Dany and troupe can't die in the desert, but how are they lasting without any food or water in that heat? And with dragons starving? Something better happen soon.
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#2579

anothermi

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 2:16 PM

stillshimpy:Given that it turns out Mance Rayder was once part of the Night's Watch, maybe Thorne will turn out to be in league with him and will have never gone to King's Landing?.... Thorne was really a rather nasty piece of work last season. He really seemed as if he wanted to get Jon Snow into all kinds of trouble and it made little sense.



While I agree that it wouldn't seem out of character for what we saw of him from last season, I feel a bit loathe to accept that at face value. I tend to agree with Tyrion that Mormont does not lie, and take that esteem a bit farther in that I kind of trust his ability to judge character. I got the impression that Mormont - despite Thorne's personality defects - trusted that Thorne took his Black Watch vows seriously.

I actually lean more to Thorne meeting with an "accident" related to the zombi hand. I wouldn't be surprised if the hand alone could continue to act on the White Walker agenda (what ever that is) and killed Thorne. IT wasn't burned after all. If he's not dead, or a traitor to the men of the Watch, I think I will have a tiny moment of rejoicing if he turns up again. OK, REALLY tiny compared to others from White Stumbler's list of characters-who-have-not-turned-up-again. (and thanks for the comprehensive run down WS.)

and more from White Stumbler:

Yup, I have dragons pegged as more reptile than mammal. Dany needs to chew up some meat (horse heart?) and regurgitate it for the triplets.

Horse heart! <snort-zing!> good one.
OK, I get what you and shimpy are pointing out. That sounds like a good way to go for me. It fits with my thought that Dany needs to act more like the dragon's mother would have.

...why, then, did Varys launch the poisoned wine attack on Dany? I know the wine-attack has never been explicitly linked to Varys, but I have always had the premise that the attempted poisoning was what Varys meant when Ned asked him to call off the attempt on Dany's life and Varys told Ned 'those birds have flown.'

I got that same impression. Varys was ordered by King Robert to kill Dany and her baby and I believe he set the plot in motion. I also believe there is a lot more to his over all motivations than what we have seen so far. His response to Tyrion's threat (big fish eat small fish & I keep on paddling) seems to indicate that he is quite adaptable and never ties himself to one specific out come, but still has an over arching goal that informs his next choice of action. I also don't think for a minute that Jorah was his only spy. I'm sure he knew how Jorah felt towards Dany, so he may have felt confident that the poison plot would fail. (I'm not certain of this, but I wouldn't be surprised.)

Arutha, re: the slogan 'What is dead can never die'. The Lannister's slogan "A Lannister always pays his debts" has more resonance with most Westrosi than the Lannister "words" - which I don't think we even know at this point. (right, we don't - according to Max Taco's list) I'm guessing it's the same as that. It seems to be more in keeping with the Greyjoy "way" than 'We Do Not Sow'. (now if those "words" were "We Do Not Pay" I might find them more relevant.)

Anyway, 'What is dead can never die' sounds like Balon Greyjoy's heart/capacity for feeling.

ScrubMonkey:
I have a feeling we will find out what dragons eat in a gross way.

It. Is. Known.

Edited by anothermi, Apr 13, 2012 @ 2:18 PM.

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#2580

TyrionLannister

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:05 PM

Has it ever been explained how come Dany is a "dragon" and Viserys was not?

I really want Selmy back - the actor was great in the role, and his 'here's my badge and gun, asshole' scene in the throne room was just awesome.


I always thought the way that final scene was done meant we'd be seeing more of him.

why, then, did Varys launch the poisoned wine attack on Dany?


I think Varys knew the attack would fail, and he simply wanted Dany and Drogo to be pissed off enough to want to conquer the Iron Throne.
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