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#14862006

TWoP Dietrich

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Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 6:59 PM

MOD ANNOUNCEMENT

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#1

TWoP Dietrich

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Posted Apr 18, 2011 @ 5:13 PM

Let's say you haven't read the books, but you still want to guess what's going to happen next. This is the place for you!

Please, if you've read the books, don't post in this thread. Let the people who want to just experience the show as it unfolds have fun too.
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#2

Ulle

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 5:07 AM

All right, awesome episode!

Some things that stayed with me after watching:

The Queen had one dark-haired son - her first born, the image of the King. He dies tragically in a fever, and all her children after that are born blond, looking nothing like the King. Yeah, I doubt very much she was heartbroken and praying for his survival, I think she killed that child. She wants her family on the throne, and prefers that the next King be the result of her twincest. She's a super pleasant person, that one...

So Dany has a slave girl who knows about dragons. She says there was an extra moon that got too close to the sun, and the heat made it crack and out flew dragons. Dany's keeping candles all around her eggs, apparently at all times. I'm thinking they're not as petrified as people believe. Do dragons imprint?

ETA: Forgot one. When Tyrion is having breakfast with his siblings, he seems to be needling them about Bran surviving. When his brother objects, Tyrion expresses his loyalty to his family. Does he know? Not only about the twincest, because I'm fairly sure he's aware of that from comments he made in ep 1, but about the Bran defenestration also?

Edited by Ulle, Apr 25, 2011 @ 5:16 AM.

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#3

scarlett45

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 11:48 AM

Okay- I think when Bran wakes up he will have amnesia. It would be too easy for him to remember everything and tell what he saw.

Also, I think that Cersei was telling the truth about her eldest son, although I think perhaps Jamie/their father, conspired to poison the boy after Joffrey came out all blond and 100% Lannister (to make way for him to take the throne). Cersei is a cold bitch, but I am not sure she would poison her own son in cold blood, but I do believe if her brother/father did it, she would accept it and stand by their plan- if that makes any sense at all.

I also think Sansa has wised up about the type of family she is to marry into....but I am not sure what she is going to do about it.
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#4

SideshowJed

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 12:57 PM

Remember when Ned was all, "you're the king and my best friend and all, but I will never tell you anything about Jon Snow's mother?" And how Tyrion Lannister is going out of his way to desensitize Jon about the whole bastard thing (you don't need whores where the men are chaste; the Wall is obviously out of his way)? Jon Snow's parentage makes him seriously important.
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#5

Ulle

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 1:06 PM

I think when Bran wakes up he will have amnesia. It would be too easy for him to remember everything and tell what he saw.


I thought about that, but it seems like too much of a cliché... I agree that it's unlikely he'll just wake up and tell all, but I still doubt amnesia. My first thought was that his head injury left him mute somehow, but thankfully I'm not too stupid to realize he could probably communicate anyway (just stupid enough to think of it in the first place). But perhaps he'll wake up "touched" somehow. The head injury left him a little crazy, where he can't separate real from vision, and so he can't exactly tell and others can't exactly believe?

Yeah, no. I may have just managed to talk myself over on the amnesia after all...

I think that Cersei was telling the truth about her eldest son [...] but I am not sure she would poison her own son in cold blood


I don't think she'd bat an eye. She told that story while she was visiting in the sickroom of the boy she failed to have murdered the first time, so she could scout it out for the assasin she'd send to finish the job. If she really mourned her son's memory I don't think she'd use it in this situation.

I'm not saying she's a one-dimensional bitch with no redeeming qualities, from my impression so far the storytelling is better than that, but I do think she's cold enough to basically just sigh and poison the "wrong" son. Had to be done, after all. And I don't see the brother having anything to do with it, while he's no more innocent than she he doesn't seem to have her drive.

ETA: SideshowJed, I agree that there's some big secret about Jon's mother. I just have no idea what important woman Ned could have met while away at war, who could also bear a child in secret. But it does make me wonder about Jon taking the black. They aren't allowed to have children, and in this world you're only important as part of your lineage. It doesn't matter who his parents are if he can't continue the line. But that may also explain why Ned would tell him when they next met, since if he's in the Night Watch by then, the information will be toothless...

Edited by Ulle, Apr 25, 2011 @ 1:11 PM.

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#6

stillshimpy

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 2:12 PM

Okay- I think when Bran wakes up he will have amnesia. It would be too easy for him to remember everything and tell what he saw.


Non-reader, completely unspoiled here, but what I'm guessing is that Jamie (is it Jamie or Jaime?) and Cersei's reaction and words "'He saw us!" followed by the death shove is going to be enough to impress upon Bran that he needs to keep what he saw to himself, because saying anything is more likely to get his entire family killed than it is anything else. I'm assuming treason exists in this world and accusing the Queen of incest is likely treason. Even if he had an impulse to run off and say, "Oh you'll never guess what I saw..." he probably lost that somewhere between the ledge, the ground and waking up to what is likely a broken body.

Bran seems quite bright to me. I'm not really basing that on anything in particular at present, but the fact that he didn't start scrambling away like crazy the second he saw the Queen and her too closely related to her consort gong at it, says to me he didn't really understand the implications of what he saw. But he's unlikely to wake up without realizing, "Okay, I saw the Queen and her brother and then...they very purposefully decided to kill me." He didn't know when he was lingering in the window that he'd stumbled across something big (or else he would have lit out of there like the little mountain goat he appears to be), but he does now.

I think he'll say he didn't see anything, or doesn't remember, but I think he darned well does and will, he just doesn't know what to do with it yet.

This is not a speculation, just a fond, fond hope that I'm pretty damned sure won't be realized, but oh how I want Joffrey to be devoured in one huge bite by a really pissed off Direwolf. Or to be sat upon by an obese dragon. Or to have an Omen moment where the Ravens peck out his eyes, or something hideous and awful. What an odious character.

Judging by what I know of the fantasy genre? That alone means I'm stuck with him for the rest of ever. He'll defy death and squish kittens and club seals for eons. Gah.

Edited by stillshimpy, Apr 25, 2011 @ 2:14 PM.

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#7

Ulle

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 2:39 PM

I think he'll say he didn't see anything, or doesn't remember, but I think he darned well does and will


But his mother (well now he wakes up she's maybe gone already, so older brother then) knows he didn't fall, and even strongly suspects the Queen already. Do you think he'll be afraid to tell even them? And accusations of treason he surely wouldn't fear from his family. Not to mention he's a very young boy in a very scary situation, don't you think he'll want to turn to authority figures he loves and trusts?

ETA: Not to mention, he's clearly still under threat, as the assasin shows. Deliberately keeping quiet isn't likely to gain him anything.

Edited by Ulle, Apr 25, 2011 @ 2:46 PM.

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#8

stillshimpy

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 2:47 PM

Not to mention he's a very young boy in a very scary situation, don't you think he'll want to turn to authority figures he loves and trusts?


If they hadn't included the "Young Bran watches as traitor's head is lopped off by Lord Stark" scene, I wouldn't believe that, Ulle. I'm also not saying I'm right. I'm perfectly fine with the concept of being dead wrong in the guess and am likely to find out quickly next week, but Bran being introduced to what amounts to "the world of men" in almost his opening scene makes me wonder.

There's also the thing that his mother is going to have some truly nasty scars on her hands. Seriously, nasty scars. So yes, I think that it is likely that Bran is going to hold his tongue until he can figure out why what he saw was so important. I don't think he currently does, but he does know that they tried to kill him for some reason. His mother's hands are hamburger and that's likely something that will catch his attention too...and both of his sisters are off in the company of the very people he knows tried to kill him. He's just old enough to be rebelling against his parental authority (climbing against his mother's wishes), so I think the story has believably set it up that Bran might just keep his peace for a bit.

Yeah, I think that in this world, he'll think to hold his tongue, even if his mother demands to know (and he'll not look at the ground, by the way because his mother informed him of his tell) after he gets a load of her hands.

ETA: Again, I could just be wrong (the opposite of right!) but I think that Bran is just old enough to realize that what he saw, gets people killed ...he just doesn't quite understand why yet...but he understands the dead part enough to figure out that the way to get the assassins to stop? Lie his ass off about what he absolutely, did not, on pain of getting mommy and everyone else killed, see.

I think that, in part, because I think the person he'd be most likely to tell is either his father...or more likely, Jon Snow, who is off on Wall walkabout or whatever.

Edited by stillshimpy, Apr 25, 2011 @ 2:54 PM.

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#9

Ulle

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 3:15 PM

"Young Bran watches as traitor's head is lopped off by Lord Stark" [...] His mother's hands are hamburger and that's likely something that will catch his attention too...and both of his sisters are off in the company of the very people he knows tried to kill him.


Good points, especially about him witnessing the fate of traitors (although that man betrayed an oath to protect the wall, not quite the same I think), I hadn't put the two things together at all. I could also, maybe, see him keep quiet out of guilt when he sees his mother's hands. But I don't see how his keeping quiet could help keep his family safe, especially those away at court. If nothing else, there is always the risk of them stumbling onto the same secret he did, and on their home turf the Queen and her brother are probably more efficient killers and won't push anyone out of the tower with a bouncy castle underneath the window...

he understands the dead part enough to figure out that the way to get the assassins to stop?


Not so sure about this. Why would he assume the Queen would be willing to risk letting him live just because he hasn't told yet?

I'm also not saying I'm right. I'm perfectly fine with the concept of being dead wrong


I hope I'm not being too agressively argumentative, I just think it's fun someone else turned up to do some speculating! I know I'm spending a lot of post space skeet shooting specultations, but it's not that I think you're dead wrong, just want to challenge the ideas to see if we can find something new too.
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#10

stillshimpy

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 3:21 PM

Not so sure about this. Why would he assume the Queen would be willing to risk letting him live just because he hasn't told yet?


I think because she said, "He saw us." twice before he took the great plunge. If Bran remembers that that was the bone of contention, he might think to lie. The Queen said it twice, Jaime called more attention to it with the "I heard you the first time" and he might put two and two together in terms of "That was the part that got me pushed."

Or not, he's ten.

I hope I'm not being too agressively argumentative, I just think it's fun someone else turned up to do some speculating! I know I'm spending a lot of post space skeet shooting specultations, but it's not that I think you're dead wrong, just want to challenge the ideas to see if we can find something new too.


Not at all, Ulle, I think it's fun too (and apparently there are at least two of us who have never read the books...three if you count my husband, four if you count my dog judging by the length of the book thread) :-) I'm just quite uncertain as to which way it will go. I can see it going in either direction, you know? He's ten. He wakes up from a terrifying experience. Is he young enough to tell all because parents know what to do? Or is he old enough to have opened his eyes and started assembling puzzle pieces like crazy, not quite sure what they mean yet...and with the person he thinks of as being trustworthy enough to confide in (Jon Snow telling him not to look away, because his father would know, appears to be an adviser, plus Jon was able to do what Bran wasn't...figure out a way to save the direwolf pups).

So when I keep saying, "I could be wrong..." it's because I'm truly unsure and dithering back and forth.

Edited by stillshimpy, Apr 25, 2011 @ 3:23 PM.

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#11

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 3:46 PM

Hey, don't underestimate the number of non-book readers! I've got two dogs here, too! Plus, they're big, so we could count them as four or five...
(One of them even watches the show, even though he's usually more into sports. Or anything with bears.)

It's interesting that you made the assumption Bran would choose not to tell. Me and scarlett45, and maybe some on the ep thread too, tried to think of ways he'd be prevented from telling, since it's not likely (but who knows, really) everyone will know everything right away. But where we looked at the story for an answer, you looked at the character. I like that better, since if it's an active choice it helps develop Bran as well, whereas if silence is imposed upon him it's just a story hurdle. (Not really coming over to believing he'll choose to keep quiet, just think it may end up being a better story if he does.)

On the other hand, it suddenly reminds me of the countless shows and movies where I sit screaming at the screen, since everything could be cleared up if people would just talk to each other...

But back to the assasin, I'm still not sure I see why the Queen would just drop it if she found out he was awake and had had nothing to say. If he's choosing to keep his mouth shut, he can change his mind. If he's got amnesia, he could get his memory back. But if he's dead, no more problem.
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#12

stillshimpy

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 4:13 PM

But back to the assasin, I'm still not sure I see why the Queen would just drop it if she found out he was awake and had had nothing to say. If he's choosing to keep his mouth shut, he can change his mind. If he's got amnesia, he could get his memory back. But if he's dead, no more problem.


True, but the first assassination attempt could be seen as "someone was trying to be merciful" and the people around it might easily be persuaded to see it that way. "The Stark boy was murdered in his bed!" "How horrible, but it was a mercy..." and really, the way the Lannisters (Queen and Jamie, right?) were talking, it seemed like they live in a world were euthanasia was not unthinkable, but rather the kinder choice.

Continued attempts make it clear across the land that for some unfathomable reason, someone wanted a ten year old boy killed...so they'd start trying to fathom why. He's not due to inherit anything. He's not part of this power play/game but repeated attempts on his life make it clear to more than just the Starks and the citizens of Winterfell that there is something to be known...because there aren't many reasons to murder a ten year old with no claim to any throne...unless he could threaten a throne, or a power structure.

So that's the only reason I can see the Queen letting it drop if Bran appears to not be telling anyone, or is apparently rendered simple (or whatever choice they make) from the fall. If she keeps at it with too much verve, that alone starts calling attention to things like, "Someone's been trying to kill that boy ever since the ....Hey, does this have something to do with the king???"

He's too young to have dishonored anybody.

One of them even watches the show, even though he's usually more into sports. Or anything with bears.


Mine snored at a key point in the story, so I think she's clearly very intrigued :-)

My husband and I defied all odd by (judging by the press including words like "famed" and "much anticipated") never having even heard of the books until we saw a promo.

So we're still waiting for the Ice Zombies to show up again and wondering, "Who the hell built that?" at the wall. That and "How much does Camelot wish they had this budget? Holy crow."

ETA: Also, I'll add my husband's spec here: "If you're the Baker and the Candlestick Maker, you're definitely telling your sons they aren't allowed to play with the Stark girl."

Edited by stillshimpy, Apr 25, 2011 @ 4:18 PM.

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#13

grumpygoddess

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 5:18 PM

Okay, my spec is that Jon Snow's mother is... Cersei!

What we know:
- There was a very weird moment in episode 1 where Ned kisses Cersei's hand when she arrives. I immediately thought there was some history there. Then I forgot about it when it appeared that she was more into family members.
- Cersei tells Ned's wife that she had a dark-haired son. He was killed. She said he looked really like Robert. I think this was lies, and that Jon was that dark-haired son that looked like Ned, and Ned took him away from her. I'm guessing there was some complicated reasoning behind it.
- Robert never met the mother of Jon Snow. Ned never introduced them. He acted evasive in that scene.

So that's my theory.
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#14

scarlett45

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 5:45 PM

grumpygoodness I say no to that, given than Jon is older than Cersei's eldest boy would have been. Jon was born during the fighting, Cersei and Robert were wed after he became king (at least I think). King Robert thought that black haired boy was his son so he had to be born sometime after his marriage to Cersei. Also I just cannot see Ned fucking Cersei, or Cersei fucking Ned. Cersei is devoted to her brother and abhors her husband who she has probably slept with a handful of times out of duty.

It makes more sense to me that the black haired boy was Cersei's only child by Robert, and the Lannisters had him poisoned once Joffrey was born so a 100% Lannister would be king. JMO......but I love speculating with you!
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#15

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 6:11 PM

I have a feeling that when all's said and done, Khal Drogo is going to end up being more humane that the Starks, Lannisters, et al. I'm just guessing but I feel like he has potential to be forgiving under certain circumstances - possibly due to perhaps falling in love with Danaerys now that she's making the mad sessy moves on him - rather than quick to kill like the others have been thus far. So many people seem very quick to cut a bitch thus far, and over small things. Danaerys may have gotten the better end of the stick in her arranged marriage in the end. I'd like to see her wind up having a real love affair with Drogo, then he dies in some noble battle and she ends up with Jon Snow, and they rule their kingdom with a kinder hand. I know, it's goopy but that's what I would like to see.

I too thought there was some "past" involving Ned and Cersei because she keeps giving him these weird looks a lot of the time.
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#16

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 6:42 PM

King Robert thought that black haired boy was his son so he had to be born sometime after his marriage to Cersei.


Did he say this? If Jon was born during the fighting, and Cersei and Robert were married after the war, then it makes sense to me that Cersei is the mum.
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#17

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 6:45 PM

grumpygoodness Cersei says to Catelyn that the boy was dark haired, the image of Robert and when he was sick King Robert was beating his hand against the walls etc to "show he cared". Robert thought the boy was his son, because he looked like him and was born after their marriage.
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#18

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 6:47 PM

grumpygoodness Cersei says to Catelyn that the boy was dark haired, the image of Robert and when he was sick King Robert was beating his hand against the walls etc to "show he cared". Robert thought the boy was his son, because he looked like him and was born after their marriage.



But that is only what Cersei told us. How do we know it is true? Ned's wife had never heard about this dark-haired child before. Did King Robert mention him?
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#19

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 6:57 PM

I doubt this would happen, because the show seems too realistically grim (rather than Grimm) to go for a classic fairy tale resolution like this. However, I like the idea that Jon is indeed Robert's son, but not with Cersei. I'm fuzzy on the chronology but wonder if Robert might not have waited for the wedding day and the now dead sister delivered his child in the midst of the civil war. (This would explain Ned saying that Jon doesn't have his name but has his blood.)

Joffrey is clearly not Robert's son and could be denied the throne because of this (although in the absence of DNA testing, disputed paternity is hard to prove.) Then, at the end of the saga, bastard Jon could win the Game of Thrones and rule wisely with Tyrion as his realpolitik counselor and his Uncle Ned as continuing King's Hand.

But probably just wishful thinking on my part.
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#20

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 7:03 PM

However, I like the idea that Jon is indeed Robert's son, but not with Cersei. I'm fuzzy on the chronology but wonder if Robert might not have waited for the wedding day and the now dead sister delivered his child in the midst of the civil war. (This would explain Ned saying that Jon doesn't have his name but has his blood.)


Cardie AH, so you think Jon Snow is Robert Barageron and Lana Stark's son? If that were the case, why wouldn't Robert (who loved Lana) want his son with him? Unless he thought the Lannisters would murder him! Better he be in the safe care of his maternal uncle as Ned's supposed bastard than in the court as Robert's bastard and attract attention of the evil Lannisters!

Edited by scarlett45, Apr 25, 2011 @ 7:04 PM.

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#21

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 7:37 PM

I was thinking more that Robert has no idea Lana -- really, Lana?--bore his son before she died and the child being after all still a bastard, Ned decided to keep him out of the Game of Thrones.
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#22

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 7:39 PM

Ah Cardie gotcha. Well why not tell Catelyn this? I understand not telling Jon, but why let Catelyn be so mean to him because he is "Ned's bastard" if he is not......
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#23

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 8:00 PM

I was thinking more that Robert has no idea Lana -- really, Lana?

Ned's sister was called Lyanna. Lyanna Stark.

Edited by Azure Owl, Apr 25, 2011 @ 8:00 PM.

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#24

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 8:26 PM

My mind is kind of blown with these Jon Snow parentage theories. Well, let's be real: my mind is blown by just about everything having to do with this show. I'm so in awe and processing after each episode it's almost too much for me to even speculate...but I'm loving it.
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#25

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 9:17 PM

I think it means something that Jon's surname is "Snow," but that it's apparently not his mother's surname. Why "Snow"? Some foreshadowing of his life on the wintry far-northern wall? A link to the "Winter is Coming" clan without actually naming him Stark?

Though for all I know, he's the son of Ned and his sister Lyanna, given the way things work in this world.
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#26

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 9:36 PM

Whoops already answered.

Edited by BitchySmurf, May 4, 2011 @ 8:46 PM.

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#27

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 9:38 PM

I'm not suppose to post in here but the surnames for bastards are explained in the history thread.

... and now back to your regular scheduled posting

Edited by Barbarossa, Apr 25, 2011 @ 10:14 PM.

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#28

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 10:15 PM

There's one thing I've been assuming about Jon and it has nothing to do with his parentage. I'm assuming I've yet to understand who the heck his mother could be, although I think Ned said her name was Willa (it sounded like Willa) when the King directly asked. Since it is a "great sin to lie to a king" I'm going to guess that Ned Stark wasn't lying there. He won't answer anyone else, even poor Jon, but when he did answer, it was to the King.

But the thing I've just been taking as a given and realize that perhaps I shouldn't be: Jon Snow is not really going to take that bloody oath and tie himself to the scariest wall to ever wall, in the company of murderers, rapist and monks, I dearly hope. I'm assuming some grim (and or dire, with the added possibility of extremely disgusting) will happen that prevents it. The Ice Zombies (Whitewalkers?) will descend en mass. The friggin' wall will fall down. Something, anything.

I'm really hoping.

Also, on rewatch I picked up something that I had quite taken in the first time around. Catelyn's not likely there for Bran to see directly after waking up. She's ridden off to track down Ned and the King with ...a guy who looks a bit dodgy to me, actually but that might just be the sideburns tied under the chin that makes me think that.
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#29

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 10:48 PM

Yeah. With all this speculation about whether Bran will remember, what he may remember and what he make hallucinate, whether he'll tell, etc., I started to wonder--even if he wants to tell somebody, who's there left for him to tell? Normally it would be Ned or Cat, but they're both gone. Robb? Quite possibly, but not necessarily, if he sees Robb more as a teasing big brother than a trusted adult.
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#30

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Posted Apr 25, 2011 @ 11:51 PM

But the thing I've just been taking as a given and realize that perhaps I shouldn't be: Jon Snow is not really going to take that bloody oath and tie himself to the scariest wall to ever wall, in the company of murderers, rapist and monks, I dearly hope.


There sure have been an awful lot of people who have been mocking his decision or warning him against joining the Wall Watchers. Everyone's all, yeah, have you really thought this through? No sex! Sketchy fellow Wall Watchers! Creepy forests! Did we mention no sex?! Ever!

Because of that, I started to wonder if something dire might happen that would prevent him from doing joining up. I believe he's resolute, but maybe a last-minute super-urgent message from Ned saying "Need you here! Now!" might come through?

(I can't remember the last time I used the word "dire", but I keep wanting to throw it in all over the place now - thanks direwolves).
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