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Game of Thrones Television vs. Book (may contain spoilers)


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#3871

benteen

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:26 PM

I am relieved that the show omitted Yoren 'spanking' (beating, hitting with 2X4, whathaveyou) Arya. I actually like Yoren, his gruffness, and what he manages to do, but that book scene is just, bah.


Yeah, that scene in the book had me skeezed out at "pull down your breeches".

I never got what Tyrion saw in Shae in the book...I think he was just so desperate for any (attractive) woman to accept him.

Since Jeyne Poole hasn't appeared in the show . . . is anyone else wondering if the writers are planning on giving her future arc to Roz?


She's too old for the role but you know what...she DOES have a connection with Show Theon.

Question...do you think all the baby killing might turn off some of the non-book viewers? We still have Lommy's death coming up. He's not a baby but still...

Edited by benteen, Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:27 PM.

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#3872

Colonel Green

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:32 PM

I find it kind of funny that they've cast a former porn star as Shae and yet haven't given her any nude/sex scenes, when by this time in the books she'd had a couple. Is it possible they don't want to show Peter Dinklage naked?

Edited by Colonel Green, Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:32 PM.

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#3873

benteen

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:32 PM

Shae was nude last season, right before the battle.
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#3874

Colonel Green

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:34 PM

Huh, it's been a while since I watched those episodes. Didn't stick out in my mind.
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#3875

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:43 PM

There was a discussion earlier about whether it's okay to decide to "skip all xxxx's chapters" and so on, and I haven't yet, but the sheer horror of Theon's chapters in ADWD took me closer than I've ever been. Really, honestly, from the heart, I could survive quite well without that degree of despair in the rest of the series.



I get where you're coming from. But, I think Martin pretty much had to go there to have any chance of a Theon redemption arc. I hated him so much after ACOK that I didn't think there was any chance of me ever liking Theon again. And you know what? Martin did it. I actually think he pulled off the redemption.

Yeah, that scene in the book had me skeezed out at "pull down your breeches".


I saw that scene as Yoren protecting her. Arya had to be careful and couldn't go around asserting herself and pissing people off. Yoren punishing her ended the situation by giving a form of justice to Lommy? Hot Pie? Whichever it was.
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#3876

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:46 PM

A lot of the dialogue, like Gendry/Arya's conversations and Balon/Asha/Theon were ripped right from the book.

I don't see the need for more dialogue between Gendry and Arya because I feel the actors have created a great rapport between their characters that, at least to me, adds up to the natural chemistry the characters from the book weren't able to convey without extensive amount of conversation.

However, I do believe Theon's plot could be fleshed out a little more because his terms vs his family's don't seem quite clear to me without book background.

Edited by agora, Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:49 PM.

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#3877

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 10:47 PM

There was a discussion earlier about whether it's okay to decide to "skip all xxxx's chapters" and so on, and I haven't yet, but the sheer horror of Theon's chapters in ADWD took me closer than I've ever been. Really, honestly, from the heart, I could survive quite well without that degree of despair in the rest of the series.


I'm a skipper/skimmer, but never on the first read-through. It's just that when I go back and re-read, I naturally find myself jumping over entire chunks of text, and often over entire characters. Curiously, it's never because I find myself revolted or offended or anything; I can't think of a single passage in any novel I've ever read that made me squeemish or anything. I just find some chapters/characters/storylines boring, and often earlier storylines in the books are resolved in later books, so re-reading them gets a little pointless.

Another example of this from fantasy would be Lord of the Rings. I find Frodo and Sam's journey to/into Mordor epically boring, and I think it's been a good 15 years since I read anything from their storyline after they team up with Gollum.
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#3878

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 11:00 PM

I'm very confused with the Stannis storyline. Did Mel say that the queen was locked up and he had no children? See ya Shireen. But, I am loving Liam Cunningham as Davos. Making a character I wasn't invested in book-wise, a great one to watch.

Not excited to see Natalie Dormer cast as the 15 year old Margary Tyrell. And the squick factor marrying her off to Tommen in 3 books will really annoy me. Of course, knowing this casting group, Tommen will go off screen for 3 episodes and come back with a beard and have grown 3 feet more.

Totally not happy about Craster dumping the baby in the woods and only Jon seeing him. And Jon getting hit and presumably knocked out? Is that how they're getting him to Ygritte?

Screen Shae is so different than book Shae. This one's too cunning and worldly for me. And I hate the ever popular Roz - the main whore of King's Landing.

Theon will never be redeemed in my eyes. I'd be fine with every part of him being flayed.

They're rushing Arya and Gendry too, it took her until being revealed by Stark men before she came clean to Gendry.
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#3879

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 11:25 PM

I rewatched and Mel only mentioned no sons. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Lol

Arya definitely revealed who she was to Gendry way before she recognized...I forget his name.
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#3880

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 11:26 PM

It's pretty funny reading episode reviews/reactions by those who haven't read the books. There's stuff like "Gendry seems like an upright guy...which probably means he's not" and "Tyrion and Shae are pretty cute together, so you know that means something horrible is going to happen." Hee hee hee. I guess they learn quickly, huh?
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#3881

benteen

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 11:31 PM

Speaking of reduced families, it looks like Davos only has one kid with him here. I think that's one of those changes that probably works better for the show. It'll sell Davos's loss more too I think.
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#3882

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 11:47 PM

I rewatched and Mel only mentioned no sons. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Lol


No she talks about Still Births

Not excited to see Natalie Dormer cast as the 15 year old Margary Tyrell. And the squick factor marrying her off to Tommen in 3 books will really annoy me. Of course, knowing this casting group, Tommen will go off screen for 3 episodes and come back with a beard and have grown 3 feet more.


Given the age up of everyone, Margaery's got to be 17/18 atleast. It's still riddiculous but not quite as bad of Dawson casting. The Tommen thing, yeah thats going to be difficult
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#3883

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 1:15 AM

I don't want to be a "crazy book" fan and get pissed everytime there's a change, but losing Shireen did bother me. I mean they don't ever have to include the character, but why was it necessary to eliminate her altogether instead of just having a throwaway line about "no sons?" I think sometimes the writers could be more vague with the material. They're sorta of forcing ironclad restrictions on themselves.
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#3884

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 1:22 AM

I tend to agree. Starting in book 5, greyscale is really being played up and Melisandre's reaction to Shireen probably isn't just based on aesthetics. There's something up with that disease that I'll wager is likely to be important later on; perhaps something that could thwart Mel's plans. Not having Shireen (daughter of a king/blood of a king) may change the narrative somewhat once the show gets that far.
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#3885

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 2:34 AM

The episode 3 trailer has Cersei talking about papers again. Now I really want to see her wave a paper at the High Septon/go "you can't do this, I'm the queen regent!" and get denied by his "power is power" play. If they move the final third of ASOS to season 4, would they have time to do all of the pre-trial Cersei/Margaery feud in S4? Apart from their imprisonment, I can't think of anything that would serve as a good climax to Cersei/Margaery in S4. Maybe they could play up Loras' departure as a potential loss to Margaery and win to Cersei, but even that seems a bit weak.

I get where you're coming from. But, I think Martin pretty much had to go there to have any chance of a Theon redemption arc. I hated him so much after ACOK that I didn't think there was any chance of me ever liking Theon again. And you know what? Martin did it. I actually think he pulled off the redemption.


GRRM made a lot of readers feel for Theon in ADWD, but while he's obviously less awful when compared to a serial killer like Ramsay, I don't think he's going to be redeemed until he stops saying that it's alright since he "only" killed peasant children and not Bran and Rickon like people believe. It depends on how readers define redemption, as "annoying character I hated but now feel for since he suffered so much" (redeemed as a viable character) or the development of moral awareness and acceptance of individual responsibility (redeemed as a human being).
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#3886

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 4:19 AM

I'm very confused with the Stannis storyline. Did Mel say that the queen was locked up and he had no children? See ya Shireen.


Not locked up, I think. There was a glimpse of Selyse at Stannis' side as he walked off the beach after the burning of the Seven. No Shireen seems to be the case, but I guess that they figured she's never really relevant as a character, so why cast someone. The Greyscale can be introduced in a different way, I reckon.

Probably means no Edric Storm, either. That's a shame, because he does have one of the coolest names in the series.

Not excited to see Natalie Dormer cast as the 15 year old Margary Tyrell. And the squick factor marrying her off to Tommen in 3 books will really annoy me. Of course, knowing this casting group, Tommen will go off screen for 3 episodes and come back with a beard and have grown 3 feet more.


She was older than Joffrey in the books, and will be older than Joffrey on the show. But all the kids are older. And I'm not sure what you mean by "this casting group". Do you mean that the actor playing Tommen will grow up in three years? Yeah, he will, but that's kind of unavoidable, isn't it? I've seen pictures of Isaac Hempstead-Wright recently, and puberty has definitely hit him. Going to be weird seeing Hodor carrying him around in season 3. Still, even in the books Margaery was treating Tommen as though he was her nephew or something, more than her husband.

Totally not happy about Craster dumping the baby in the woods and only Jon seeing him. And Jon getting hit and presumably knocked out? Is that how they're getting him to Ygritte?


I wouldn't think so. My guess is that Craster drags Jon back to Mormont and uses it as pretext to tell them all to piss off. 'This bastard was spying on me. What I do is none of your business'. We know that Qhorin Halfhand has been cast, so I think Jon's journey will be pretty similar to the books, until he meets Ygritte at least, because it seems like some parts of his story are being accelerated.

Screen Shae is so different than book Shae. This one's too cunning and worldly for me.


This one makes sense to me as a woman that Tyrion could lose himself over. She's intriguing, mysterious and sexy, and I can finally understand why he'd be so attached to her. The whole 'innocent whore' kick from the books seemed weird to me. Either Tyrion was fooling himself, or Shae was fooling him. Either way, I'm glad of the change, for the show.
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#3887

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 4:30 AM

No she talks about Still Births

Yes...of sons. Melisandre's focus was always giving him a son, not a child.
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#3888

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 4:41 AM

Screen Shae is so different than book Shae. This one's too cunning and worldly for me.


I always read book Shae as a Westeros analogue to a gold digger. I believe she knew exactly who Tyrion was, and what that meant. She's a social climber, and I think both the books and the show have shown that to differing degrees. I mean, she rather strongly presses Tyrion to let her come to court, and when given the chance she jumps (literally) on Tywin.
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#3889

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 7:26 AM

Oh God, I hope they don't replace Jeyne with Roz. Ugh. I know the faux!Arya wasn't close enough to fool people who actually knew the real Arya, but she has to be close enough that they could pretend she was and keep their mouths shut to avoid the Boltons flaying them. Roz is way too old, and a redhead; there's no way she could work in that role. Not to mention being one of only a handful of whores in either the North or King's Landing, surely people would know her and recognize her as being a whore, not the preteen daughter of a high lord.
I've mostly been ok with the changes they've made for the show (and sometimes liked them better even -- like aging up the kids), but this is one change that would be a terrible idea. Also, I'm sick of the omnipresent Roz. She serves no purpose.
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#3890

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 7:42 AM

[quote] saw that scene as Yoren protecting her. Arya had to be careful and couldn't go around asserting herself and pissing people off. Yoren punishing her ended the situation by giving a form of justice to Lommy? Hot Pie? Whichever it was.[ /quote]

Yes, Yoren has been protecting Arya since Baelor (still one of the most difficult scenes for me to watch). But the beating seemed harsh. It wasn't in view, Yoren kept it discreet, and he has to keep everyone in line (and this was more or less for Arya's benefit). Very "See, Arry got his for scrappin' with us! Yoren said something to her like "Hot Pie is hurting worse than you" (or somesuch), but it seemed excessively harsh, especially Arya being an adolescent girl with the down breeches and all.

Another harsh reality of the GoT world, I was just stating my relief of that not being shown, as I don't think it would have added any weight to the dynamic.

Crud. I knew I forgot how to quote. Sorry!

Edited by EastCoastress, Apr 9, 2012 @ 7:43 AM.

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#3891

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:09 AM

Jaqen in this episode (2x02) really cemented my whole "Jaqen is Syrio" theory. Jaqen acts and speaks just like Syrio and appears to have an immediate fondness for Arya. My evidence is: We never saw Syrio die, Jaqen came into play just as we "lost" Syrio, and we know that certain Braavosi can change their appearance at will. I am just going to watch all of Jaqen's scenes assuming he's Syrio, which makes me super psyched to see Arya's upcoming storyline play out.

Edited to despoiler tag.

Edited by Arline, Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:36 AM.

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#3892

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:18 AM

I don't think that's a change. As I recall, that's pretty much exactly how it went in the book, too. Theon shows up all proud of the plan he came up with for Robb and the Iron Islanders to work together, how he (Theon) will lead the attack, etc. and then his father just berates him and breaks him down. I specifically remember the whole "Robb Stark will *give* me a crown?!?!" thing. Unless somehow I am totally misremembering. It has been a while since I read ACoK, but I'm pretty sure it was that way.

You're right. What always struck me was how outrageously stupid Balon's plan was. He did seem to mean to occupy the North, not just raid while everyone was away (which would have been fine). No matter who won the war those chickens were going to come home to roost hardcore. And he didn't have the men or the skills needed to hold out against basically anyone. He would have been way better off taking up Robb on his offer. At least then he might have a fighting chance to get something. Probably Theon got his non awesome grandious planning skills from his grumpy pants dad.

Speaking of reduced families, it looks like Davos only has one kid with him here. I think that's one of those changes that probably works better for the show. It'll sell Davos's loss more too I think.

I was wondering about that. I thought he was supposed to be Devin what with the Lord of Light devotion, but Mel talking about him dying in fire made it seem like he was one of the older boys.

ETA: Yeah that's 0% spoilery Arline, you don't have to tag stuff like that in the show vs. book thread. I don't particularly like that theory whenever it comes up (as it make Syrio seem like a nasty piece of work), but it isn't spoilery.

Edited by WickedRipePlum, Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:25 AM.

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#3893

benteen

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:30 AM

Balon would have been better off joining Robb to fight against the Lannisters and the Baratheons. Though Robb should have been smarter and not told him he'd "give" a crown. It would have made no difference but still...

You know, when Jon turned his head around at the end of last night's episode, I thought it would have been kind of funny if it had been Cateleyn instead. "Bastard!" WHACK!
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#3894

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:37 AM

Oh God, I hope they don't replace Jeyne with Roz. Ugh. I know the faux!Arya wasn't close enough to fool people who actually knew the real Arya, but she has to be close enough that they could pretend she was and keep their mouths shut to avoid the Boltons flaying them. Roz is way too old, and a redhead; there's no way she could work in that role.


But that's the whole point: Littlefinger's entire future plan requires the North to eventually abandon "Arya" for Sansa. He has no reason to give the Boltons an "Arya" that is at all believable, because he doesn't want the North to be split between Arya supporters and Sansa supporters when he "reveals" Sansa---he wants the North to rise, as one, for Sansa. If the lords of the north have some reason to believe Ramsay has married the real Arya, that just makes Littlefinger's plan more difficult to pull off, because there's too much risk that powerful lords will stay with the "Stark daughter" they already have rather than risk the Boltons' wrath for a different Stark daughter whose identity, let's be honest, would be just as questionable as "Arya's". But if the lords of the north have very clear reasons to believe all along the Boltons are lying about Arya's identity---like, say, the person playing Arya is way too old and way too redheaded---then Littlefinger's "Queen Sansa" plan suddenly becomes much easier to pull off.

And the reason the lords in Winterfell aren't calling the Boltons on their shenanigans isn't necessarily because they believe Jeyne is really Arya, it's because the Bolton/Frey/Lannister alliance is holding their relatives hostage and they can't oppose the Boltons without risking those hostages' lives.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that the writers plan on giving Roz Jeyne Poole's arc. She's from the North, she's in Littlefinger's control, she's been associated with Theon, and Littlefinger just basically told Roz to shape up or he'd sell her to a sexual sadist (coughRamsaycough).

Edited by tze, Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:41 AM.

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#3895

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 10:03 AM

Since Jeyne Poole hasn't appeared in the show . . . is anyone else wondering if the writers are planning on giving her future arc to Roz? I mean, they've given her a decent amount of screentime, and it's not like this is a series that cries out for brand-new, extraneous characters. Roz is from the north, she's in Littlefinger's control in a brothel, she has a well-documented connection to Theon----all things that line up with Jeyne Poole. The only problems with transferring Jeyne Poole's arc to Roz are her age (she's at least ten years older than Arya) and her hair color (red not brown), but there's been speculation elsewhere that the lords of the North who saw Jeyne in Winterfell already knew that Jeyne wasn't Arya anyway, so perhaps shifting Jeyne's arc to someone who really can't pass for Arya would be a way to drive home that point visually (given that the noted "Stark look" obviously can't be clearly portrayed in the show, so if the Northmen have known all along that Jeyne isn't Arya, there would need to be some logical visual reason for why they'd know that in the show). And since Jeyne spends all of her time isolated, the fact that Roz isn't a noblewoman wouldn't really be important, plot-wise.


That's interesting, I don't think it will fly, based on the age difference mentioned though.

When Cersei was commanding Littlefinger to find Arya in the season premiere they were focusing in on a young palace servant. A lot of viewers simply figured it was shown to show that Varys was spying on the conversation (or Littlefinger had a witness the Queen did not see.) I took that to foreshadow that in the end Littlefinger will just find a servant with some northern Arya-esque colouring and dress her up like a lady. It'd be harder then simply using Jeyne (as Jeyne has been trained with Sansa in palace courtesies and heraldry and all the other stuff a highborn lady should know) but I'm sure Littlefinger could pull it off.
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#3896

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 11:12 AM

But that's the whole point: Littlefinger's entire future plan requires the North to eventually abandon "Arya" for Sansa. He has no reason to give the Boltons an "Arya" that is at all believable, because he doesn't want the North to be split between Arya supporters and Sansa supporters when he "reveals" Sansa---he wants the North to rise, as one, for Sansa. If the lords of the north have some reason to believe Ramsay has married the real Arya, that just makes Littlefinger's plan more difficult to pull off, because there's too much risk that powerful lords will stay with the "Stark daughter" they already have rather than risk the Boltons' wrath for a different Stark daughter whose identity, let's be honest, would be just as questionable as "Arya's". But if the lords of the north have very clear reasons to believe all along the Boltons are lying about Arya's identity---like, say, the person playing Arya is way too old and way too redheaded---then Littlefinger's "Queen Sansa" plan suddenly becomes much easier to pull off.


That's fine for Littlefinger's far-off future plans - but how will he convince both the Lannisters and the Boltons to sign off on such an absurd substitution? Both the Lannisters and the Boltons have a stake in making the pseudo-Stark marriage look at least superficially believable. Why would they be willing to go along with a charade that would make them look like arrogant idiots to the Northerners that they will have to win over? "Yeah, we know she's a twenty-year-old redhead who couldn't pass for Arya Stark to a blind man in a fog, and we know you Northerners know it, and the whole country will know it's a farce and think that all you Northerners are craven turds for giving up your allegiance to the Starks for such an obvious fake, and we don't give a shit. Suck it, you Stark-loving Northerners."

IMO, the moment Littlefinger proposed Roz as a substitute, the Lannisters would look at her and snort, "Yes, a substitute's a fine idea, but surely throughout your many brothels and other unsavory connections, you could find a more likely one than THAT!"
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#3897

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 12:04 PM

Count me as one of those who believes Roz taking Jeyne Poole's place won't work, as the reasons (age, hair color) have been aptly noted. A while back, I suggested Roz could replace Marillion as the person LF blames for Lysa's murder. It would take some explaining, but it seems a more palatable story function. Hell, Roz as a dragon rider would be more believable than her taking over Jeyne Poole's role as Arya-doppleganger.
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#3898

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 12:05 PM

Yeah, there's a difference between "kind of looks like her to strangers" and "completely different in coloring, age, and body type". This is a case where if the show does use that storyline, they're bound by the fact that TV is a visual medium, and they need to cast someone that at least superficially looks like Arya.
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#3899

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 12:30 PM

I don't think Roz will be taking Jeyne Poole's place. And not only because she couldn't pass for Arya Stark under any circumstances, but because I think Roz is going to come to a sticky end, this season or next.

It's no coincidence, I don't think, that Littlefinger threatened her like he did, and I'm sure there's been talk of Joffrey doing something unpleasant to a whore later in the season. If not that, I can't help but wonder if she'll be taking Alayaya's place as the whore that Cersei thinks is Tyrion's (although with Shae actually staying in the Red Keep, that might get changed too) and doing more than just have her whipped.
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#3900

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 1:51 PM

I don't think Roz will be taking Jeyne Poole's place. And not only because she couldn't pass for Arya Stark under any circumstances, but because I think Roz is going to come to a sticky end, this season or next.



One can only hope.

I also don't think I like the theory that Jaqen is Syrio. I mean it seems kind of pointless in the scheme of things really. So why bother.

I did find it really interesting how the Aria/Gendry scenes are being really well received and getting a decent amount of screen time. I mean in the books he seemed a fairly minor character. But here it really feels like they are setting up a ship and something more important? I don't know I haven't really thought it through yet but it struck me as almost romance novelish. They meet when she is young and a tomboy and he teases her like a little sister. They they are separated for years and when they meet again ....

I never really read the fan sites for the books so had no idea that actually was a ship. I never really saw it in the books but I clearly see it now.
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