180 replies to this topic

[TWoP Howard]

From ZAP2it

Atlantic City braces for change on election day; Torrio brokers a deal between two nemeses; Jimmy, Margaret, Van Alden and Eli think about their futures.

[FtMyer7]

What was in the book that the maid gave Nucky before leaving?

[Midge]

Good series.

Nucky's story is even sadder then I thought it would be. Good on Margaret for making him talk about it.

Speaking of which, she is DEFINATELY angling to be Mrs. Nucky.

I hate that Jimmy is turning on Nucky. I did think something was going to have to happen though. I mean you don't get Dabney Coleman in a show and then do nothing with him.

I hate Ely.

I saw Angela cutting her hair as a total bitch move. "He's (Tommy) afraid of you, we both are" what bullshit. He confesses that he knows he's emotionally damaged from the war, tells you that thinking about your hair gave him comfort and what do you do? And I don;t care if the person you "really" love sent you a message, it was just assy.

For the first time ever I felt sympahty for Lucy. Yikes to having the Alden Spawn.

Edited by Midge, Dec 5, 2010 @ 10:11 PM.

[PippiMarie]

I hate Angela.

[AimingforYoko]

Margaret coming back to Nucky was the greatest gift he could receive, especially with the group plotting against him.
One question, though: Why is Jimmy so pissed about his mother now? He's known about the commedore all along.

[terxav]

So much went on, but I will say the funniest was when Fleming talked about getting the spooks out to vote, He was | | this close to feeling Chalky's special hand grip.

And I thought Angela was the most annoying character until Nan came up again. In Nan's world, is Harrding married? She keeps making comments like Warren does not have a wife.

ETA: Angela, what a waste, Jimmy explains how messed up he was during the war and a postcard from Mary has her cutting her hair. Maybe someone will save them both and buy her passage to Paris.

Edited by terxav, Dec 5, 2010 @ 10:23 PM.

[Margarita]

Was Nan Britton that obnoxious in real life? Good Lord.

I cracked up when Lucy announced she was pregnant.

[Pallas429]

Why is Jimmy so pissed about his mother now? He's known about the commedore all along.

Jimmy has known about his mother and his father all along, but not about Nucky's role. Young Jimmy cast Nucky in the role of his surrogate father -- "Unlce Nucky", as Margaret might say -- and believed Nucky valued and even loved him for himself. Not as a way to assuage his guilt about ultimately, selling out both his parents, in very different ways. And since then, grown Jimmy has taken both a clear and jaundiced look at Nucky's strengths and weaknesses.

Of course it's likely Nucky did and does care for Jimmy. But that's more compicated a story than Jimmy can handle right now. He's up to his ears in complicated stories. Angela's he has real reason to try to work through, but that leaves little other room for further ambiguity in Jimmy's loyalties.

[Grom]

One question, though: Why is Jimmy so pissed about his mother now? He's known about the commedore all along.

Either Jimmy's not very good at math or he didn't know that Nucky acted as Gillian's pimp. I'm figuring it's the second thing that's bothering him. And that was one bitchy move by Angela. She can kiss Jimmy opening up again goodbye.

I realized tonight that Margaret had no idea Nucky had a son. I forgot that was something only the audience and Nan knew. But boy no wonder Nucky never married after Mabel. That's an awful lot of guilt for one person to carry around. I am glad that Margaret came back though because she and Nucky are a matched set in both sorrow and manipulative skill.

When Lucy said Van Alden knocked her up, my mouth literally dropped open. I wasn't expecting that at all.

And when Dabney Coleman said he had a juicy storyline in season two, he wasn't kidding!

[mochamajesty]

How does Van Alden know the kid is his? It could be anyone's.

Awww...Nucky and Margaret. The look in his eyes when Margaret walked into the party.

Jimmy, WTF? You knew how Nucky was all along. Why is it bothering you now?

I saw Angela cutting her hair as a total bitch move. "He's (Tommy) afraid of you, we both are" what bullshit. He confesses that he knows he's emotionally damaged from the war, tells you that thinking about your hair gave him comfort and what do you do? And I don;t care if the person you "really" love sent you a message, it was just assy.

This. My God, woman. Once the man shows his tender side (which is what you wanted, remember) and you get a note from your married lover, you straight up forget about the promise to work on your marriage? What did the postcard say? The only part that I caught was "Forgive me, don't forget me." The way Angela acted, you would think that Mary said she was coming back.

What was the point of Nucky electing whatshisname sheriff if he was just going to rehire Eli? And Jimmy running Atlantic City? No. Neither Jimmy nor Eli have the political savvy. They are both thugs.

[fashionista79]

One question, though: Why is Jimmy so pissed about his mother now? He's known about the commedore all along.

I doubt he ever knew the details of how Gillian came to be pregnant by the Commodore. That Nucky essentially pimped out a 13 year old orphan to a 54 year old man, a man that he didn't have any consistent relationship with, is all new information that not only sheds new light on the Commodore, but sheds a big, bright light on Nucky. It's changed the way that Jimmy has viewed Nucky.

Jimmy is seeing that Nucky is loyal to himself, first and foremost. Then the Commodore tells him the story about how Nucky sneaked in and rose to power off the Commodore's name. Add to that Eli's new issue with his little (?) brother, and the games that Nucky plays, I can see that season two is going to be an interesting one. The three men that Nucky screwed over by exerting his power are not happy!

I saw Angela cutting her hair as a total bitch move. "He's (Tommy) afraid of you, we both are" what bullshit. He confesses that he knows he's emotionally damaged from the war, tells you that thinking about your hair gave him comfort and what do you do? And I don;t care if the person you "really" love sent you a message, it was just assy.

Here's what I'm seeing with their relationship--nothing about their drifting apart has happened in a vacuum. He finally lets her know, albeit a year later, why he was reluctant to contact her while he was in the trenches; he confides in her because he wants her to understand that he would never be violent towards her or Tommy, but he can't unsee and undo the things that happened while in the war. Yet, I'm getting the sense that Angela wants out, but she won't just go. Mary's in Paris with Robert, but Angela doesn't want to stay with Jimmy...so she cuts her hair as a means of pushing him away (or keeping her distance?). So, yay, one point for her doing something, but it still reads passive-aggressive to me. Why not take the time to tell him that she isn't sure she can stay with him when he isn't as well as she'd like him to be? That moment when he talked to her was the moment for her to say something for herself, and she didn't. Frustrating! Instead, she cuts her hair.

I am glad that Margaret came back though because she and Nucky are a matched set in both sorrow and manipulative skill.

Ha! I'm quite liking the pair, too. They play off each other well, and I'm always interested in their game-playing.

Oh! That press conference juxtaposed with the systematic killing of the D'Alessio brothers (even the littlest one)? Was nuts!

Edited by fashionista79, Dec 5, 2010 @ 10:40 PM.

[Chirper]

The first Jimmy/Angela scene was wonderful, but let's not forget that Jimmy is still a thug and a murderer, war hero or not. He almost killed Robert Dittrich in front of Tommy and accused Tommy's mother of being a whore in public. Angela is scared to death of him even though she loves him, and yes, she still loves Mary. I saw her bobbing her hair as a statement to Jimmy that she wants to live her own life, and he's going to have to deal with it. Next season with these two should be interesting to say the least. I think their relationship is tragic and so full of emotional push/pull that the logical culmination is murder and suicide. We'll see.

Two more observations:

I was surprised that she told him in the letter that she had a relationship with Mary, and was even more surprised at how gently he dealt with this. It struck me as the writers retrofitting past attitudes, but it was a welcome switch, nevertheless. Michael Pitt and Aleksa Palladino nailed that scene like nobody's business.

I guess Mary just plain chickened out and took the easy way out with Robert. I suspect this wasn't the last we'll see or hear of her.

On other subjects, I'm glad Richard Harrow is still around. I had a feeling he might be offed in the finale, and I'm glad I was wrong. Great line by a soon-to-be-dead D'Alessio upon spotting Richard's tin face: "Halloween is over".

Great summit meeting between Rothstein, Torrio and Nucky, with all their support teams present. Funny that Jimmy was essentially ordered to forget that Luciano screwed his mother.

So Margaret comes home to Nucky. I thought he was going to propose on the dance floor at Babette's.

Van Alden is an idiot if he really thinks Lucy's child is his...if indeed she's even pregnant. If that's the sign from God he was looking for, he's made a big mistake. Hanging around Atlantic City is just going to bring him more grief.

This show needs more Chalky White. Two scenes of Michael K. Williams are just not enough.

Frankly I don't give a rat's ass who tried to kill the Commodore, though Nucky giving the maid money to get out of town was a nice touch.

With Warren G. Harding in the White House, we've got Teapot Dome to look forward to next season. It'll be Republican graft 24/7 nationwide. Can't wait.

[dustylil]

I was rather surprised that Nan had heard of Robert Frost. I thought he was a rising poet at that time, not one of fame and prominence.
Hey! Maybe he helped Warren write that poem for Nan! :)

[Scoutlet]

As soon as Margaret talked about getting the rag or the ring in the cake, I knew she would get that rag and decide to go back to Nucky. Especially after what he told her about his wife and son.

Angela cutting her hair struck me as a move a rebellious teenager would make. It's symbolic, but not substantial. Although she looked pretty.

The violence was briefer than I expected, though horrific. Especially shooting the boy. Ugh.

OMG Lucy's pregnant with crazy spawn! A bigger genetic mismatch than I could ever imagine.

[Francie Nolan]

So, am I to read it that Margaret was shaken up by finding the rag in the cake and after reflecting on her options she made the pragmatic decision that being Nucky's kept woman isn't that bad of a proposition after all? Because the way she had him melting when she mentioned that the children missed him was wonderfully devious.

I can't explain it. Jimmy can plot and scheme and shoot people in the face all he wants, but his expression when he saw Angela's hair had me aching for him. That was a heartless and cruel thing to do after he was so vulnerable and honest with her and HE FORGAVE HER for having an affair with another woman which is amazingly open minded for the times.

Did not see the Eli and Commadore working together thing coming. I honestly did not think he had the brains or the balls to plan a coup. I thought he'd just hover in the background all resentful like.

Van Alden needs the 1920 equivilant of Maury. I wouldn't trust Lucy on him being the father as far as I could throw her. I love that her previous sugar daddy was a bootlegger and she still clearly had no fucking clue what a prohibition agent was.

If I were Margeret I would have slapped Nan. God, what a ninny.

[ccridernyc]

My kingdom for that magenta velvet hat of Margaret's early* on in the show.

Am I supposed to feel bad for Angela? I don't. Not a bit. They took a dull character and made her loathesomely dull.


ETA *s/b later

Edited by ccridernyc, Dec 6, 2010 @ 10:11 PM.

[growsonwalls]

I thought Jimmy gently having Angela sit in his lap was the most tender moment I've seen on the show. He wasn't just apologizing to Angela, he was explaining his own psychic wounds, and begging for a clean slate, and even telling Angela that whatever she did with Mary is in the past and he's forgiven her. So what does Angela do? Cut her beautiful hair that she knew Jimmy loved. Ugh Angela. Either leave him (Jimmy has made it clear he won't be violent), or try to make the relationship work.

I also loved how sad Jimmy looked with the hair, but at least he ran his fingers through it. He really has such a gentle side with Angela that warms my heart.

Nucky and Margaret back together. I sure loved Margaret's gold flapper dress. She looked gorgeous.

Are the writers trying to have us hate Nucky? The way he explained whoring out Gillian was appalling.

Poor Lucy. Having van Alden's spawn is not a fate I'd wish on anyone.

Edited by growsonwalls, Dec 5, 2010 @ 10:46 PM.

[Scoutlet]

I have my doubts about whether Van Alden is the father, but I'm not sure why Lucy would go to him before some other, wealthier potential babby daddy. He doesn't look like he has two pennies to rub together.

When I saw the guy in the barber chair, for a second I thought it was a dentist chair and they were going to off the dentist after all! They didn't, did they?

I can't help loving Jimmy. He is just so very pretty and Pitt brings it in every scene. I only like Nucky when he's with Margaret. He's like a different person when he's with her. In other scenes, he is entertaining but scuzzy.

Edited by Scoutlet, Dec 5, 2010 @ 10:50 PM.

[Chirper]

I can't explain it. Jimmy can plot and scheme and shoot people in the face all he wants, but his expression when he saw Angela's hair had me aching for him. That was a heartless and cruel thing to do after he was so vulnerable and honest with her and HE FORGAVE HER for having an affair with another woman which is amazingly open minded for the times.

And Angela had to forgive two years of no contact, Jimmy running off to Chicago and Jimmy nearly killing a man in front of their son. I'd say she's had the heavier lift in the forgiveness department. Her cutting her hair wasn't about him--it was about her and how she wants to live her life. Jimmy doesn't ask her permission to do whatever he wants to do, so why should she be obligated to ask him?

And why on earth does every character on the show refer to Angela as Jimmy's wife? They're not married and it irritates the hell out of me that she's thought of in a way that just didn't exist in 1920. More retrofitting.

On an entirely different note, how can Mayor Bader appoint a new county sheriff? That's way out of line even for New Jersey, and I say that as an attorney and a native New Jerseyite.

[Brakchi]

The scene between Nucky and Margaret in which he confessed to her what happened to his wife and child was tremendously moving.

Glad Chalky was at the party. Wish there had been more Richard. I want to see more about him. That is quite a revelation for Van Alden to deal with. With those two parents, that kid will need all the help he/she can get. Love Halloran got used but for Eli to be backstabbing him - darn (and especially with Nucky knowing that the Commodore is planning a betrayal).

The first Jimmy/Angela scene was wonderful, but let's not forget that Jimmy is still a thug and a murderer, war hero or not. He almost killed Robert Dittrich in front of Tommy and accused Tommy's mother of being a whore in public. Angela is scared to death of him even though she loves him, and yes, she still loves Mary. I saw her bobbing her hair as a statement to Jimmy that she wants to live her own life, and he's going to have to deal with it. Next season with these two should be interesting to say the least. I think their relationship is tragic and so full of emotional push/pull that the logical culmination is murder and suicide. We'll see.

That was my take on it too. Jimmy really does assume doesn't he. He assumes his story about why he did not write is enough for the pain he brought upon Angela. He assumes his reasoning is enough to make her and their son not afraid of him. He assumes when she says "I was lonely" to a yes or no question it means she did not love Mary (which it seems based on her reaction to the card she still does). Then he gets all pissy she cut her hair. What a controlling, egotistical jerk. I love she cut her hair (a liberating act to say the least). She needs to get away from this sexist jerk pronto. I hate it when people are so egotistical they assume another human being's life revolves around them.

And Angela had to forgive two years of no contact, Jimmy running off to Chicago and Jimmy nearly killing a man in front of their son. I'd say she's had the heavier lift in the forgiveness department. Her cutting her hair wasn't about him--it was about her and how she wants to live her life. Jimmy doesn't ask her permission to do whatever he wants to do, so why should she be obligated to ask him?

I agree especially the notion of why should she feel obligated. That is very much what this is about. He thinks she is obligated - that he repeatedly fails her yet she is the bad guy, in Jimmy's opinion, if she does not forgive him 100% each time. It is the epitome of sexism that Jimmy displays.

Edited by Brakchi, Dec 5, 2010 @ 10:56 PM.

[BML1980]

[snip]
Jimmy may say he won't be violent and wants a clean slate, and that may well be true. However, I'm sure she has an idea what goes on in his "work", she's seen him nearly kill a man in public, and while he sleeps, he seems to have a lovely habit of transforming into a screaming German soldier who is out for blood. To top that off, she's either bisexual or a lesbian, and is trapped in a marriage probably due to societal expectations at the time, and there's a child involved in that marriage, which makes a decision to leave that much harder for her. I don't approve of her plan to run off with their son, but doesn't all of the above mentioned allow her to be conflicted, just a little bit, about staying in a marriage with Jimmy? Cutting her hair negates all of her worries and makes her a whore?

Edited by TWoP Howard, Dec 5, 2010 @ 11:13 PM.
Boards on boards

[Scoutlet]

I think Angela's in a lousy situation, and I would fully support her decision to leave Jimmy or kick him out. I also don't care if she wants to cut her hair. But she didn't cut her hair because she wanted to; she did it to send Jimmy a message. And I would much prefer it if she would just send him that message honestly and clearly, by telling how she feels, making a decision and sticking with it. Her dithering is just getting dull to watch. I want to care but I find it hard to.

[clack]

And why on earth does every character on the show refer to Angela as Jimmy's wife? They're not married and it irritates the hell out of me that she's thought of in a way that just didn't exist in 1920.

New Jersey recognized common-law marriages until 1939. As far as I can tell, Jimmy and Angela are legally married, because they hold themselves out as a married couple.

[hardy har]

My absolute favorite kind of scenes are the one where characters just sit and talk. No background music to tell me how to feel, no action, just fucking talking, so this episode was like crack to me. YAY!

Kelly MacDonald was making me LOL with all her non-verbal reactions to Harding's mistress.

Angela, you are killing me. You and Jimmy gave me the 'Awws' during that kitchen scene. Then, you go a fuck it up by cutting your hair, which I covet. Fellow TWoPers, I wish you could have seen my face when she walked out with that haircut. I actually said out loud, "What a bitch." when Angela got the post card. Bitch. Move. Mary. My dumb ass was thinking Angela was thinking the same thing and then it turns out she got the sads instead. Boo. I hope the show finds more for her to do next season. It's weird, I think the actress has really great chemistry with MP, GM and Actress Who Played Mary so I hope she gets to interact with more people. As of now, her storyline is just kind of . . . there in relation to everything else. Not that I think Angela needs to be in on all the shady gangster business, but if you removed her plot from the show we wouldn't really be missing anything.

Poor Lucy. Having van Alden's spawn is not a fate I'd wish on anyone.

I can't even begin to imagine what a child of Van Alden and Lucy would turn out like. I just . . . *brain explodes*

Edited by hardy har, Dec 5, 2010 @ 11:13 PM.

[Scorpiosrule]

I can't explain it. Jimmy can plot and scheme and shoot people in the face all he wants, but his expression when he saw Angela's hair had me aching for him.

THIS. Also, I didn't see him getting pissy at Angela for cutting her hair. He looked...hurt. The expression in his eyes conveyed (at least to me): "WHY?"

And for all the debate and scenarios discussed last week about why or why not the maid was the one poisoning Commodore, no discussion about it tonight?

Like AHA! I KNEW it was her! Apparently, she was going it on her own, and Gillian had nothing to do with it. It makes my skin crawl to see her so sweet and caring with her rapist; cut it anyway you like, that's what he was.

And I had to laugh when seeing Van Alden primping when told "some woman is here to see you", thinking, in his delusional mind, that it was Margaret.

so, Mabel didn't die of consumption, but committed suicide. That whole scene broke my heart; especially the part where Mabel continued to hold and care for her baby even though he was dead. Just sad.

And that press conference while, Richard, Al and Jimmy took care of the D'Allessio brothers? How very...Godfatherish. Reminded me of Connie's baby's christening, Michael disavowing Satan, while his men took care of everyone involved in Sonny's murder and betrayal of his family.

At least there was no cliffhanger. Very good ending.

[Chirper]

clack, I should have been more clear in my remarks. Yes, I'm certainly aware of common law marriage, but in a cultural sense there's a world of difference between that state and a church service with the blessing of clergy. The former was always looked down upon and the woman in such a relationship viewed by the public at large as a trollop.

Interesting though--while Jimmy and Nucky refer to Angela as Jimmy's wife, I don't recall her ever referring to him as her husband.

[Brakchi]

Angela, you are killing me. You and Jimmy gave me the 'Awws' during that kitchen scene.

There is a giveaway in that scene (and it is not just Angela not giving a yes or no answer on the does she love Mary question). Jimmy closes his eyes because he is thoroughly into that moment. Angela's eyes stay open and stare away from Jimmy. She is going through the motions. Jimmy's speech is a one sided moment. For Jimmy it was tender. For Angela it was painful as it should be especially listening to his weak apology and attempt to excuse his intolerable behavior. She also now knows Jimmy will never let her take Tommy if she tries to get away again. What an awful situation for a woman to be in.

Edited by Brakchi, Dec 5, 2010 @ 11:25 PM.

[nubbs]

Who the heck got shot at the end? And why?

[Contralto]

What was in the book that the maid gave Nucky before leaving?

It was a well-worn book with an attached bookmark, so it was probably a Bible. From Nucky's reaction when he opened it, she'd either written him a message or marked a key passage. The Commodore treated her like she was too stupid to know what was going on, so I bet she has picked up something about his burgeoning conspiracy.

Was Nan Britton that obnoxious in real life? Good Lord.

Yup. After Harding's death she wrote a tell-all, The President's Daughter. Dorothy Parker wrote a hilarious review.

I was surprised that she told him in the letter that she had a relationship with Mary, and was even more surprised at how gently he dealt with this.

Maybe he just felt that two women couldn't have "real" sex, so her betrayal was less than he had thought.

So Nucky wasn't rich eight years ago, but . . . yikes. A woman who'd just given birth had no help with her baby? And after she'd clearly lost her mind, he left her alone at home?

Giving up the D'Alessios was a win-win for Rothstein -- he could pay off Nucky with the insurance money. I did feel a twinge of pity for the kid, fumbling with the gun.

Whatever Lucy does now, Van Alden's going to need money. Maybe he'll have to compromise even his crazy principles.

[Forumid]

You know as terrible a tragedy a miscarriage is, overuse in storylines in all arenas has desensitized it to some degree for me. Until now. Way to take a life upending event already and turn it into the emotional scar to end all scars. Any opinions I drew up on Nucky’s bachelorhood spawning from simply being too self involved for a family are officially scrapped.

Jimmy accepting his fear, loathing, and desire to be loved by his father figures still made him the more sympathetic lead. It’s hard to see him working to take Nucky down for facilitating a crime alongside the one who actually committed the crime though. He can’t really believe the commodore is as much a victim of Nucky in dubious charity as his mother or himself enough to take up with him. But I can believe he feels more betrayed by the father who he did love and trust as opposed to the one he was otherwise a stranger too. At least to conspire with.

Disappointed at the lack of Capone.

Angela hacking off her hair was out of spite. His speechless reaction wrenched up the severity. She didn’t want him to go to war in the first place and she still blames him for changing. She continually forgives and accepts him in the face of his earnestness, but still resents him after the fact for having to at all. She left the past where it was and when it returned it displaced her perspective present & future. Angela isn’t who he left behind and expected to return to either. His relationship with Tommy is twisted by his present self compared to the father he could have been as well. There is no returning to normalcy for them. He's just started to patch together a life with really nothing to base it off of but the makings of a family.

Edited by Forumid, Dec 5, 2010 @ 11:27 PM.