52 replies to this topic

[Kel Varnsen]

I am curious what exactly gives you this idea? The members of SAMCRO are required to attend church (when Jax said he was going Nomad he said he would attend church wherever he was). Plus in every church scene it is always all the same guys attending. So who else is a member of the Redwood Originals that doesn't attend church?

Those who do not attend Church are usually out on a mandatory ride. You have to attend Church if you are not on a ride, not in the hospital or not in jail. Also, it's probably just from extras walking around in cuts that say Redwood Original and the pictures of other members on the Wall Of Mug Shots.

This came up in the Chibs thread and it makes me wonder how many member of SAMCRO there really are. I mean other than the main guys (Clay, Jax, Bobby, Tig, Opie, Piney, Juice and Chibs) is there really anyone else outside Big Otto and anyone else in prison. The fact that it is always the same guys in the church meetings makes me think no, otherwise there would be more a revolving door of members. As far as the guys on the mugshot walls goes, I imagine that is probably every member (or at least every arrested member) since 1967. I mean there are still 5 of the First 9 who are unaccounted for, so those guys are either retired or dead, but I am sure there pictures are still on the wall.

[thatguy01]

I'm guessing that unless there are more members in jail, all of the current members of Samcro voted on admitting Kosik, Happy, and the prospects. I recall that when they made a big decision before (Jax going nomad?), there was a deal about getting proxies from Juice (in hospital) and Tig (tripping), and drama about how the vote came down. I don't remember ever hearing someone say, "I have Unseen Member Bob's proxy" at a vote. So those votes have shown us Samcro's full roster, exc Otto, I guess.

[LazyBum1115]

So those votes have shown us Samcro's full roster, exc Otto, I guess.

Speaking of which, why didn’t anyone have to proxy Otto’s vote when Jax wanted to go Nomad? The vote had to unanimous, so theoretically Otto's opinion would matter. Do the SAMCRO members who are in jail not get a vote?

[CtLady]

Just curious, is there a reason a separate thread had to be created for such questions that couldn't be asked in the question thread? Could someone clarify which types of posts should go here as opposed to the question thread?

[Kel Varnsen]

Speaking of which, why didn’t anyone have to proxy Otto’s vote when Jax wanted to go Nomad? The vote had to unanimous, so theoretically Otto's opinion would matter. Do the SAMCRO members who are in jail not get a vote?

I thought I read somewhere that Otto was basically leader of a different SoA charter of guys in Stockton Prison.

Could someone clarify which types of posts should go here as opposed to the question thread?

My thoughts for making this thread was a place to discuss general club business, their rules and regulations, stuff that might not fit in a single character's thread. It wouldn't necessarily have to be questions.

[BigKev47]

I quite like this thread, I'd been thinking of starting it myself for a while now... the thing that got me thinking about it tonight is this:

O'Neill's back tat was definitely not the Reaper we all know and love in the fight scene. So do different charters get different tats, and the Reaper is just RO's? Or are they optional? Though with the whole flame-removal episode, I sorta thought they were a big part of the ritual of the club... Any ideas?

[Allie J]

I don't think there are any rules about which tats you must get, but once you get them, if you leave the club they must be removed or blacked out.

I'm wondering if the full back tat of the club logo was something Jax, Opie, and that unfortunate guy whose name I can't quite remember all did together. They were all around the same age and were friends, so it seems like something they'd do. I don't recall seeing the full back tat on any other SAMCRO member. Anyone remember differently?

[dexie]

I don't remember seeing them on anyone else. I think the reaper back tattoo is optional. The guys all have some other general tatts, I thought it was the same deal for O'Neill.

I was hoping this would be answered in the last episode but since it wasn't - what's up with the jackets and the reaper symbol? I don't get it. If you're trying to stay under the radar, maybe it's best not to go around ID-ing yourself through your clothing. They might as well have worn their usual cuts. Or is there some sort of symbolism with them going abroad and thus not wearing their charter location below it?

Edited by dexie, Oct 27, 2010 @ 9:02 AM.

[Allie J]

I think they were still able to stay under the radar with their new jackets. You see that jacket and you just think it's a jacket, but if you see a leather vest with the rockers, etc. you immediately recognize it as an MC. I don't get the impression that SAMCRO is internationally recognizable so that average people would know the reaper motif from their jackets.

[TubeVision]

I thought I read somewhere that Otto was basically leader of a different SoA charter of guys in Stockton Prison.

It does seem like there have been references to there being other members of SoA in Stockton though Otto is the only member we've ever seen. Back in Season 1, Darby reminds Clay that while Opie was inside the Nords/AB helped look out for him so I've always assumed that any SoA prison presence is somewhat limited.

I'm pretty sure that Otto is Samcro and not part of some other charter. I also don't think that you could necessarily have a prison "charter" because I think the point of the MC is the "M" not the "C".

This goes along with the rule that has been mentioned several times in relation to Clay's arthritis - if you don't ride you're not in the club (or at the very least you're no longer a voting member of the club). This was reiterated by Kozik when he was sympathizing about Tig losing his license for two years - "Two years - no riding, no vote. Don't worry, I'll let you ride bitch with me."

So that's why I don't think Otto has any voting rights when in comes to MC business.

[LazyBum1115]

if you don't ride you're not in the club (or at the very least you're no longer a voting member of the club). ... So that's why I don't think Otto has any voting rights when in comes to MC business.

Okay. That makes sense to me, although it does make me wonder what constitutes "not being able to ride" so much that you can't vote. Obviously long term things: when Clay's arthritis gets bad enough he won't be able to, and Otto's jail time is enough that he can't ride/can't vote. But when Juice was in the hospital he got to proxy a vote, so clearly if you can't ride in the short term you still get a vote. I guess I'm wondering how long you have to be out of commision for your absence to be considered long term (can't vote) rather than short term short term (where you can proxy a vote). Does that make any sense?

[TubeVision]

Does that make any sense?

It does - good question about long term/short term inability to ride. Guess they must have some kind of rules for determining whether it's a more-or-less permanent situation or not. One of the things I've always liked about SoA from the beginning is that Piney is still hanging in there on his trike. One might think that going from two to three wheels would be a bit of a step down for a MC member but at the same time it's cool that his health issues aren't keeping him from doing what he loves to do - ride a motorcycle.

I wonder what kind of "retirement" is allowed for MC members. If you reach a point where you physically can't ride, does that mean that you have to turn in your cut? Are you allowed to hang around the clubhouse as a supporter etc.? Or is it a clean break and once you're out - you're out completely?

[TWoP Howard]

Could someone clarify which types of posts should go here as opposed to the question thread?

My thoughts for making this thread was a place to discuss general club business, their rules and regulations, stuff that might not fit in a single character's thread. It wouldn't necessarily have to be questions.

I’m okay with that. The question thread can be used for questions about plot points from earlier seasons, character histories, background for the episodes, and so forth.

[Kel Varnsen]

It does - good question about long term/short term inability to ride. Guess they must have some kind of rules for determining whether it's a more-or-less permanent situation or not. One of the things I've always liked about SoA from the beginning is that Piney is still hanging in there on his trike. One might think that going from two to three wheels would be a bit of a step down for a MC member but at the same time it's cool that his health issues aren't keeping him from doing what he loves to do - ride a motorcycle.

I wonder how much of that is a club rules thing and how much is a personal pride thing? I mean Piney is well liked by the club and is actually the surviving co-founder. He could probably have, and probably had, one of the director positions I guess you could call them. So I wonder if Clay could ride a trike if his arthritis got too bad but wouldn't becuase of image issues, or if he wouldn't be allowed to because of actual club rules.

[dexie]

I think they were still able to stay under the radar with their new jackets. You see that jacket and you just think it's a jacket, but if you see a leather vest with the rockers, etc. you immediately recognize it as an MC. I don't get the impression that SAMCRO is internationally recognizable so that average people would know the reaper motif from their jackets.

Not so much with the average people but with Jimmy, the Police, the locals who know the reaper symbol is for SOA because of SAMBEL. It's like how in the intro they're riding in amongst other members in their regular cuts. So rather than being randoms, they're instantly SOA members to anyone who would know the symbol. If they didn't want Jimmy to know they were coming and were working under the impression that McGee and O'Neill wouldn't tell him, they were making it easy for someone to notice they were in town. It's like when they're doing things back in Charming where they don't want to be recognised, they take off their cut. In Belfast with the jackets, it's like this weird in between thing.

[BabyAngelPants]

Question:

When Kozik picks Tig up and they're in the tow truck, he says "two years with no riding, no voting" - or something like that.

Did I hear that right? And if so, does that mean that for club rules, you have to ride to get an active vote on club decisions?

If that's the case, wouldn't Kozik see an 'in' now for getting patched Redwood, if Tig can't vote?

[Kel Varnsen]

That also makes me wonder what Kozik's status within the Sons is. I mean I assume that he was voted out of the Tacoma chapter, the same way that Jax had to be voted out when he wanted to go Nomad. But he hasn't been voted into SAMCRO yet. I wonder what would happen if he didn't get to join SAMCRO, would he have to go NOMAD or would he have to go back to Tacoma? Also it is interesting that he still wears his Tacoma and Sgt. At Arms patches when Jax took his patches off as soon as he was voted out.

[BabyAngelPants]

Good point.

I'd also imagine that were Kozik patched SAMCRO, he's immediately have to remove the Sgt At Arms patch, as Tig is in that position.

[LazyBum1115]

That also makes me wonder what Kozik's status within the Sons is. I mean I assume that he was voted out of the Tacoma chapter, the same way that Jax had to be voted out when he wanted to go Nomad.

I don't think Kozik is out of the Tacoma chapter, yet. Before they voted Jax out of SAMCRO, Clay said something about the Nomads having voted to let Jax join them. I'm guessing the charter you are in doesn't vote on letting you go until you have secured somewhere to go.

Edited by LazyBum1115, Oct 28, 2010 @ 12:19 PM.

[BabyAngelPants]

How do the Nomads vote on members/actions if they don't have a central location? I hadn't thought about that before.

[TubeVision]

So I wonder if Clay could ride a trike if his arthritis got too bad...

Two wheels or three wheels you still have to be able to twist the throttle and hold on to the handlebar grips. With the arthritis in his hands Clay won't be able to do either much longer.

He can still punch the heck out of a guy though as I'm sure Salazar and the Irish Policeman Charles would be happy to testify.

[LazyBum1115]

Two wheels or three wheels you still have to be able to twist the throttle and hold on to the handlebar grips. With the arthritis in his hands Clay won't be able to do either much longer.

Which leads us back to the question of whether or not Clay can stay in the club once his hands get too messed up. We know he can't lead, or vote, but will he still be able to wear his cut and be involved to some degree or is he going to be forced into retirement? On the one hand, SAMCRO seems like a 'for life' kind of deal. Once you're in you're in. On the other hand, you wouldn't want your MC filled with old guys who can't ride.

It probably doesn't come up a lot given the kind of lifestyle most SAMCRO members lead isn't exactly conducive to living that long.

[Kel Varnsen]

So I wonder if Clay could ride a trike if his arthritis got too bad...

Two wheels or three wheels you still have to be able to twist the throttle and hold on to the handlebar grips. With the arthritis in his hands Clay won't be able to do either much longer.

I am sure someone who actually has experience with motorbikes or someone who has arthritis can give better insight into this but if you are riding on a trike, wouldn't that take a lot of the pressure off of your hands, since there is no need for any kind of balancing. And wouldn't that in turn make it easier on Clay's arthritic hands?

[gianr369]

Which leads us back to the question of whether or not Clay can stay in the club once his hands get too messed up. We know he can't lead, or vote, but will he still be able to wear his cut and be involved to some degree or is he going to be forced into retirement? On the one hand, SAMCRO seems like a 'for life' kind of deal. Once you're in you're in. On the other hand, you wouldn't want your MC filled with old guys who can't ride.

It probably doesn't come up a lot given the kind of lifestyle most SAMCRO members lead isn't exactly conducive to living that long.

I would imagine that once he can no longer ride he is still a member but no longer in charge or able to vote. I also don't think every member has the right to vote. I think there is a small group of members with voting rights, the Charming chapter does have quite a few members (at least 10 went to Ireland) but there are only 8 or 9 in "church".

I think it would kill Clay to not be in charge of the MC or able to vote. It would also be a big deal for Gemma. She lives to be queen of the MC. Once Clay is no longer in charge she becomes "Dowager" (keeping with the royalty succession thing) and that is not a title she would want. Especially if Tara and Jax get back together and get married.

[LazyBum1115]

And wouldn't that in turn make it easier on Clay's arthritic hands?

I have a pretty limited knowledge of motorcycles, but my understanding is that you use your hands to control the throttle, front brake and the clutch. I know even less about arthritis than I do about motorcycles, but it seems to me that Clay's arthritis affects his ability to grip the handlebar - basically, making it difficult for him to brake, shift or accelerate. So, even if a trike would be theoretically easier to steer based on balance and pressure and what not, it still won't be that much easier for him to ride than a regular bike if his arthritis affects his grip.

Edited by LazyBum1115, Oct 28, 2010 @ 3:37 PM.

[Kel Varnsen]

I think it would kill Clay to not be in charge of the MC or able to vote. It would also be a big deal for Gemma. She lives to be queen of the MC. Once Clay is no longer in charge she becomes "Dowager" (keeping with the royalty succession thing) and that is not a title she would want. Especially if Tara and Jax get back together and get married.

Yea from what I remember the conversation that Gemma and Clay had about his arthritis the big concern was that if it got to bad he could no longer be the president of the club, and they would lose the power and benefits that being president of SAMCRO and of the whole SOA brought them. It was especially a worry for them if Jax became president and decided to take the club in another, less profitable direction.

[LazyBum1115]

at least 10 went to Ireland

They did? Who went to Ireland other than the regulars (minus Tig)? Not that I don't believe you, I just can't believe I missed that.

[BabyAngelPants]

I am sure someone who actually has experience with motorbikes or someone who has arthritis can give better insight into this but if you are riding on a trike, wouldn't that take a lot of the pressure off of your hands, since there is no need for any kind of balancing. And wouldn't that in turn make it easier on Clay's arthritic hands?

As a rider, the short answer is no, not really.

The controls are the same, and really, once up at speed, there's not a whole lot that you need your grip for. Even steering is done with body lean into the bars (countersteering, actually: above 12mph, you push on the left bar to go left, right bar to go right - the front wheel actually points in the direction opposite you'll be going in. Under 12mph, it steers just like your little sister's big wheel.)

On long stretches, for example, you can ride with one hand, just gripping the throttle.

so the bike vs. trike issue would be a non issue. Now, if he could have a 'cruise control' device installed, then he could alternate hands on longer rides, and that could fix the problem.

Edited by BabyAngelPants, Oct 28, 2010 @ 3:47 PM.

[CtLady]

at least 10 went to Ireland

They did? Who went to Ireland other than the regulars (minus Tig)? Not that I don't believe you, I just can't believe I missed that.

From what I saw watching the episode: Clay, Jax, Bobby, Opie, Happy, Juice and Chibs were the only SAMCRO members who went to Ireland, Piney was the only one to have stayed behind until Tig had to lure the cops away from Gemma's getaway. So that's 7 SAMCRO members and one old lady who went to Ireland

[Kel Varnsen]

I wonder exactly how much power Clay has as the world wide president of the Sons? I was just thinking because Alvarez had the power to strip Salazar of his patch, so if the truth about McGee and O’Neil cam out would Clay have the power to do the same thing? Hell with Salazar there wasn't really any kind of vote or trial so I wonder if Clay has the power to strip patches based on accusations alone.