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Glen Bishop: Lock Up Your Daughters (and Your Bathrooms)


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#31

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 3:25 PM

They were never going to be able to stay in that house. It was being sold, and that had been talked about for several episodes.

It had been talked about all season, but Betty was dragging her feet until she discovered Sally and Glen. Then she made a point of announcing that they were going to move in a way that told Sally she was taking her away from Glen. Sally understood and went upstairs to cry. That was why they finally moved.

Exactamundo! Don did not actively seek to sell the house until Betty had finally decided to move on. Which she finally did on the very day that she found Sally with Glen. If not for that, Betty would have kept finding excuses to stay put, so that she could keep aggravating Don. ("HE doesn't get to decide!")

Little did Don know when he said to Megan "Do you know how many things had to happen for me to get to know you?" that Glen was yet another player in the "fate" that culminated in Tomorrowland. :-)
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#32

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:02 PM

Exactamundo! Don did not actively seek to sell the house until Betty had finally decided to move on. Which she finally did on the very day that she found Sally with Glen. If not for that, Betty would have kept finding excuses to stay put, so that she could keep aggravating Don. ("HE doesn't get to decide!")


I'm not so sure. Henry made it pretty clear he was reaching the end of his rope with the whole thing. I don't think Betty could have put him off much longer.

She may have had further reasons for wanting to keep Glen away from Sally, but the obvious ones that any sane mother would have, were enough. He wouldn't have been allowed near my daughter, either

Edited by Scaramanga, Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:03 PM.

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#33

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:14 PM

Bathroom
Lock of hair
Bank parking lot
Hiding in playhouse
Betty acts alternately motherly and datelike with Glen, encourages Sally and Bobby to play with him, and then calls his mother
Christmas tree lot*
Wrecking the house*
Hanging out with Sally
Coming by to say goodbye

I added the bolded line to the chronology, and asterisks to events that Betty did not know about. Betty was not aware of Glen's role in the vandalism, or that he smokes. The last time she had seen him (running away from home), she seemed to have some empathy for him. So why would she freak out about Sally spending time with him other than because of her own issues? I could see Betty having the same concerns any mother would have about an 11-year-old girl hanging out with a 14-year-old boy in a solitary place, but those were not the concerns that prompted Betty. I think she was deathly afraid of what Glen might truthfully tell Sally about her own mother.

Edited to correct a typo.

Edited by Inquisitionist, Apr 13, 2012 @ 9:37 AM.

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#34

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 7:05 PM

From the Mystery Date thread:

A twelve year old breaking into and trashing a neighbor's house (as opposed to just egging or TP-ing it) is not normal, it isn't ambiguous, it is criminal.


But then, a lot of the behavior on the show is exactly that. In this case I think TP-ing or egging the house wouldn't fit what they were doing. The point was to make it look criminal so that they would want to move. TP-ing or egging the house looks like kids playing a prank. Breaking in was central to the message.
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#35

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:47 AM

Just to clarify, my "chronology" was just of Glen scenes. Was trying to figure out order more than anything.
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#36

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 1:33 AM

He is disturbing, and I think that Betty added up a lot of the strange/inappropriate things going on with him and decided, rightly, that he was not someone her daughter should be around. Just as, rightly, Mrs. Bishop decided Glenn should not be hanging around with an adult woman given Glenn and Betty's strange dynamic. I wonder if somewhere down the road we are going to see something in flashback that really precipitated Betty putting her foot down about Glenn, because while her instincts about Glen are spot on, (no well adjusted kid destroys a neighbor's house the way he did) it was a rather abrupt decision.


I just can't get behind the "Betty was a mature adult and thought Glen was disturbed so she put her foot down" interpretation because I don't feel like that's what we were shown. The things you cite (Glen smoking, Glen and his friend vandalizing the house) were things that Betty didn't know he did. The other things Betty did experience firsthand, she either wasn't bothered by or actively encouraged.

I think the purpose of the Glen storyline was to shown how Betty was disturbed. Glen was certainly confused and acted out, but he also had the excuse of being a kid dealing with confusing circumstances. It's harder, IMO, to justify Betty's actions. Glen clearly had a crush on her and she encouraged it. She gave him a lock of his hair, she confided her adult problems to him, she gave him her husband's shirt and watched TV with him when he wanted to "run away" with her and rescue her. She was flattered by his attention, and I think that when he got over his crush on Betty and had a more age-appropriate crush on Sally is what was the turning point for Betty. She had already shown herself to be resentful/competitive with Sally and this was another way that jealousy reared it's ugly head.
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#37

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:03 AM

But then, a lot of the behavior on the show is exactly that. In this case I think TP-ing or egging the house wouldn't fit what they were doing. The point was to make it look criminal so that they would want to move. TP-ing or egging the house looks like kids playing a prank. Breaking in was central to the message.


What else on the show has been deliberately criminal behavior? (other than Greg and probably Pete) And again, the break in was done after the decision to move had been made. Glen has out of control anger issues that manifest in some scary ways.

Edited by newyawk, Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:04 AM.

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#38

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:20 AM

What else on the show has been deliberately criminal behavior?


Dick Whitman took Don Draper's identity to desert from the Army?
Don DUI
Roger DUI (although not caught)
Pete & Ken hire prostitutes for clients
Roger hires a prostitute for himself

...geez so far the men are coming out bad here....I don't think shooting at the birds count.
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#39

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 9:28 AM

What else on the show has been deliberately criminal behavior? (other than Greg and probably Pete) And again, the break in was done after the decision to move had been made. Glen has out of control anger issues that manifest in some scary ways.


I wasn't actually referring to things being necessarily criminal, but just not ambiguous in terms of being bad. Characters often do things that are destructive or bad.

I have never seen a single thing that indicated that Glen had out of control anger issues. He didn't trash the Draper house out of anger. He vandalized it in response to Sally saying that she wished they could move. Whether it was a symbolic gesture or not (meaning whether or not he thought it would literally get Henry and Betty to think seriously about moving because they felt unwelcome), it was a message to Sally that he was on her side and would act on her behalf--that there were actions a kid could take. So he broke into the house, dropped things on the floor and poured things in peoples' beds. I don't think it crossed the line into adult level criminal intentions and I think the anger behind it was more a bitterness at adult behavior in divorce situations than anything out of control.

The true communication of Glen's feelings there, imo, wasn't the destruction (which was done to look threatening without Glen threatening anyone) was the lanyard he left on Sally's bed to tell her that her it wasn't an attack on the house, it was a gesture to show her she wasn't alone. Their friendship was often based around asserting themselves in their situations instead of being powerless against the adults that controlled their lives.
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#40

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 1:16 PM

And again, the break in was done after the decision to move had been made.

I don't think so. It occurred in Ep. 4-2, before Christmas. In the previous episode, we had seen Don hound Betty about moving on, and Betty showing absolutely NO inclination to do so. It was not until 9 months later that Betty finally decided it was time to move, and that was a direct reaction to learning of Sally's friendship with Glen.

I have never seen a single thing that indicated that Glen had out of control anger issues. He didn't trash the Draper house out of anger. He vandalized it in response to Sally saying that she wished they could move. ... I don't think it crossed the line into adult level criminal intentions and I think the anger behind it was more a bitterness at adult behavior in divorce situations than anything out of control.

Well put. :-)
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#41

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 4:44 AM

I don't think so. It occurred in Ep. 4-2, before Christmas. In the previous episode, we had seen Don hound Betty about moving on, and Betty showing absolutely NO inclination to do so. It was not until 9 months later that Betty finally decided it was time to move, and that was a direct reaction to learning of Sally's friendship with Glen.


When season 4 opened, Betty was already past the date that she was supposed to have moved out of the house (she was supposed to be out by October, per the lawyer.) Don made it clear in that episode that he wanted them out of the house, telling them so. The agreement had been made between seasons that she and the kids would move out. This was before everything went down with Glen.

I have never seen a single thing that indicated that Glen had out of control anger issues. He didn't trash the Draper house out of anger. He vandalized it in response to Sally saying that she wished they could move.


And you don't think this is out of control? Especially for a twelve year old? You don't think that a kid or an adult would be arrested for this? breaking and entering and destruction of property are all adult level, prosecutable offenses, and NONE of it was justifiable or deserved. I would hope that if any parent had a kid who did this in real life, they would realize that the kid has real issues that need to be dealt with immediately before they get even worse.

Edited by newyawk, Apr 20, 2012 @ 4:52 AM.

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#42

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 6:37 AM

Don made it clear in that episode that he wanted them out of the house, telling them so.

What exactly did Don do to back up his words? Nothing that we were shown. The decision as to when Betty would move appeared to be entirely in Betty's control and she did not exercise it until she saw Sally with Glen.

(In fact, when Henry called Don in June to say he needed Don's boxes moved because of his new boat, Don didn't even take the opportunity to reiterate that Henry and Betty and their boat should be living somewhere else.)

the kid has real issues that need to be dealt with immediately before they get even worse.

Glen clearly had emotional issues and some warped perspectives, but I think in the long run he's going to be fine. The low-grade vandalism of the Draper kitchen (no destruction, just a mess to clean up) did not signal the start of a criminal life to me.
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#43

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 9:20 AM

It wasn't the start of a criminal life but it wasn't benign, "symbolic" behavior either. The kid is twelve, way past the age of reason, he's supposed to be Sally's "spirit guide" per MW and he breaks into someone else's home, an adult's home, and trashes things there while leaving Sally's stuff alone. That is hugely creepy and it's juvenile delinquency. Just because all delinquents don't grow up to be criminals doesn't make the behavior okay. It was disturbing and wrong and should have been addressed and punished.

Betty's behavior with Glen wasn't appropriate but that doesn't remove her right to nix the Sally/Glen friendship and nor do her motives remove that right (which I don't believe - not for a second do I find it credible she was "jealous"). I also don't believe for an instant that Carla would have allowed Glen upstairs nor supported the relationship either.

I accept MW when he says he did what he did with his babysitter (wanted to see her naked), but that is the kind of behavior that, while believeable, merits consequences and punishment in a 12 year old. One (that it's believeable or motivated) has nothing to do with the other (that it's okay or not wrong and deserving consequences and keeping a close eye on the kid). The breaking and entering is another red flag - something's wrong here. Is he going to become a robber when he grows up? That's not the point - he's a 12 year old who committed breaking and entering and trashing someone else's property NOW. His motives, IMO, are completely immaterial. Just as Betty's were for why she forbade the friendship, even though I think she had plenty of good ones, her own prior relationship with Glen just being one of them.
This isn't IMO about Glen growing up to be something bad. It's about who he is now or was at that time.

Edited by WaltzinSpringTm, Apr 20, 2012 @ 9:23 AM.

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#44

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:12 AM

When season 4 opened, Betty was already past the date that she was supposed to have moved out of the house (she was supposed to be out by October, per the lawyer.) Don made it clear in that episode that he wanted them out of the house, telling them so. The agreement had been made between seasons that she and the kids would move out. This was before everything went down with Glen.


Before everything went down with Glen the house was a dead issue. Nothing was going to happen until Betty decided to move on it. Don wasn't pressuring Betty; neither was Henry. It was Betty's decision, and she made the decision based on finding Sally with Glen. Months and months of no movement on the house--months and months after Don and Henry indicated that they wanted a move. Then Betty finds Sally with Glen, announces they're moving and it's done. The move was caused by Sally/Glen.

And you don't think this is out of control? Especially for a twelve year old? You don't think that a kid or an adult would be arrested for this? breaking and entering and destruction of property are all adult level, prosecutable offenses, and NONE of it was justifiable or deserved. I would hope that if any parent had a kid who did this in real life, they would realize that the kid has real issues that need to be dealt with immediately before they get even worse.


No, I don't think he's out of control. (He could become so, of course.) I do think, as WaltzinSpringTm said, that he's angry, of course. When I say it was "symbolic" that doesn't mean it's benign or not juvenile delinquency. I meant "symbolic" in that context literally to say that Glen chose his actions in that incident to send messages or create a scenario that would be understood a certain way. The whole point is Glen trying to show adults that he's not just benign, that he has power too. But given the context and Glen's history I just don't at all see it as a sign that he's unhinged or specifically criminal. He's a 13 year old boy who's angry and feels powerless for good reason. Crossing the line from from something like TP-ing, which is a somewhat accepted prank that reads "childish" to vandalizing a house (which is much more serious) was a large part of the point (as well as necessary for the plan). It just seemed like a somewhat reasonable point given his feeling that his life had been casually disrupted by adult whims, and that kids like him and Sally had no voice against the hypocrisy of adults.

An adult would be arrested for such behavior, but Glen isn't an adult, he's 13. If he'd burned down the house I'd take it as a sign he was dangerously disturbed, this seemed to intentionally cross the line without slapping that label on him. Obviously Glen's not "happy"--I'm sure plenty of parents wouldn't want their kid hanging out with him. But their kids also aren't dealing with the stress Glen is. This kind of acting out is also happening more and more this season in the wider world: riots, protests, water balloons, police brutality, mass murders. It's all bewildering and criminal.

Sally probably doesn't have that great a reputation herself among good parents, quite possibly. She's crossed several "out of control" lines herself: Hanging out with an older boy, even one 13, probably suggests to plenty of respectable mothers that she's fast. (Seemed to come to Betty's mind.) She ran away and stowed away on a train to NYC--which could have gone very badly for her if she hadn't met up with a judgmental woman ready to blame it on her father. Most importantly, Sally's the kid described as masturbating in public (even if her friend was asleep). That's creepy and disturbed too--or would be off the charts if Glen did it. (There were incidents with kids in my school where they did similar and worse damage than Glen but they were considered 'good kids' at heart--frankly in this case that meant wealthy.)

Of course Glen's actions would merit punishment and consequences--if he'd been caught they would have been, hopefully. I'm not saying breaking into a house and throwing things on the floor is no different than riding his bike down the street. I just don't think it sets him so apart from other characters that he's got something seriously wrong with him when so many of these characters do extreme things. The show really embraces humans being weird at times, including kids. I don't see Glen as out of control, because it doesn't literally seem like he is. He's not at Columbine level to me. Seems more like he's angry about a lot of things in the world, and this often makes him eager to give cynical advice or mess up things for adults. But he's still in control, it seems to me. More so than, say, Don was in Season 4 or even Betty is sometimes. Will he join a radical group and blow something up? Quite possibly, given his anger. But so will a surprising number of young people.

Edited by Sister Magpie, Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:58 AM.

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#45

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:46 AM

Of course Glen's actions would merit punishment and consequences--if he'd been caught they would have been, hopefully. I'm not saying breaking into a house and throwing things on the floor is no different than riding his bike down the street.

Just to be clear, I also did not mean to condone Glen's actions or suggest that they were excusable. I'm looking at this in the context of Betty's motivation for freaking out about Sally's friendship with Glen, and Betty had no reason to suspect Glen was behind the vandalism. She's coming from another place, which IMO, is mainly driven by her uneasiness about her own past interactions with Glen.

Sally probably doesn't have that great a reputation herself among good parents, quite possibly. She's crossed several "out of control" lines herself: Hanging out with an older boy, even one 13, probably suggests to plenty of respectable mothers that she's fast. (Seemed to come to Betty's mind.) She ran away and stowed away on a train to NYC--which could have gone very badly for her if she hadn't met up with a judgmental woman ready to blame it on her father. Most importantly, Sally's the kid described as masturbating in public (even if her friend was asleep). That's creepy and disturbed too--or would be off the charts if Glen did it.



Those factors may have played into Betty's decision as well, but I think her immediate response to seeing Sally and Glen together (and her almost immediate decision to finally move) were more visceral than that.
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#46

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 1:04 PM

Looking at Glen's action thru 1960's lens: I think it's kids doing vandalism but a pretty low-scale version.
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#47

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Posted Apr 29, 2012 @ 10:22 PM

I liked his phone conversations with Sally in Codfish Ball. He's like an older brother to her: they've lived through similar experiences and have a common sensibility.

I think Glen is 3 years older than Sally, so about 15 and probably at boarding school, which makes sense with both his parents remarried and into their younger children.
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#48

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 1:12 AM

Why was he wearing a winter coat with nothing on underneath instead of wearing a robe or pyjamas? Seemed pointlessly bizarre.
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#49

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 3:59 AM

I'm setting my watch for the Matt Weiner commentary in which he defensively and exasperatedly explains that when he was Glen's age, he too wore a coat with nothing underneath, and it's what boys do.
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#50

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 6:53 AM

He's a 15-year-old at boarding school in the 60s, so he probably sleeps in his briefs, if anything. He got a phone call after going to bed and threw on what was closest by. In contrast, this was the first time (I think) that we saw Don in full pyjamas since his marriage to Megan.
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#51

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:42 AM

I'm setting my watch for the Matt Weiner commentary in which he defensively and exasperatedly explains that when he was Glen's age, he too wore a coat with nothing underneath, and it's what boys do.



Hahahahaha! i almost choked on my coffee, there. Good one! :-D
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#52

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 2:56 PM

I keep going back and forth on Glen and I think I finally figured out why he bugs me so much. Now the caveat to what I'm about to say is that I still find his walking in on Betty in the loo disturbing. But having said that, I think I'd have fewer problems with Glen if MW had just said, "look this is a messed up kid in the way that Sally is a messed up kid. They got caught in the fallout of their parents' divorces." I could get behind that. What I cannot get behind is the notion that Glen is Sally's "spirit guide" in the land of divorce.
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#53

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 6:44 PM

I keep going back and forth on Glen and I think I finally figured out why he bugs me so much. Now the caveat to what I'm about to say is that I still find his walking in on Betty in the loo disturbing. But having said that, I think I'd have fewer problems with Glen if MW had just said, "look this is a messed up kid in the way that Sally is a messed up kid. They got caught in the fallout of their parents' divorces." I could get behind that. What I cannot get behind is the notion that Glen is Sally's "spirit guide" in the land of divorce.


Yes! MW's constant insisting that there's nothing off about Glen just makes him seem MORE off.
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#54

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 7:54 PM

ITA - the problem is Weiner's denial, his insistance that there's nothing off about Glen having a sexual interest in Betty a la Weiner and his babysitter, and then Glen moving on to be Sally's so-called spirit guide. It's not appropriate and IMO Betty's role in it is irrelevant. I was cringing at Weiner's attempt to make Glen "cool" ("I'm trying to ball your sister!") and one of the guys. It's not that I couldn't believe it of Glen, it's just that Weiner's personal stake in selling it, how he took the reaction to Glen personally, is really obvious. He should follow his son's lead and just consider Glen a character, not a referendum on his son. Or maybe because Glen is based on him, he thinks it's a referendum on HIM. He takes it way too personally and IMO his reaction is incredibly myopic and immature. The problem with Glen/Sally is the set up doesn't work. You can't transition from Glen/Betty to Glen/Sally without giving the audience a reason to be comfortable with it and buy it, and Weiner hasn't. He takes the antipathy as personal. I don't think it is. I don't really recall "Creepy Glen" during the Betty phase. He was just an ordinary kid whom the beautiful housewife was inappropriately confiding in, and I believed it, in part because Glen was a bit at an awkward stage. But we're not the dad of the kid who plays Glen, so viewers aren't going, isn't it wonderful Sally has him as a spirit guide. They're going to look at the character and go - wait a second. Inappropriate. It's not personal!
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#55

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 10:16 PM

Personally, I don't find Glen creepy, but it seems that there are a fair number of people who do. Knowing that, and also knowing that MW does not see the character of Glen as a creep, I have to wonder why the scene with Glen naked except for his winter coat, instead of the usual pyjamas or robe. It seems counter-productive, just giving viewers antoher reason to find Glen disturbing and odd.
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#56

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 11:30 AM

I have to wonder why the scene with Glen naked except for his winter coat, instead of the usual pyjamas or robe. It seems counter-productive, just giving viewers antoher reason to find Glen disturbing and odd.


But he wasn't naked. I don't know why people have that impression.

I think it was to show Glen had been woken up and pulled into the hallway in the middle of the night. He apparently sleeps in his briefs - not unusual. And the coat was handy. I could see my kid doing that. I don't think they wanted to give us the impression of an expensive prep school. Maybe a T-shirt would have been better but it seemed normal. If it had been Bobby, would there have been comments?
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#57

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 12:04 PM

It's just a confluence of things. Many people already found the kid creepy, and he looks and sounds much older than he did last time we saw him, and then they opt to dress him that way for a scene in which he's talking on the phone to a 12-year-old girl on whom he seems (socially, at least) fixated. Just like last season, many people already found him creepy for his earlier interactions with Betty, and this apparently bothered Matthew Weiner, but not enough to have his first appearance in years be something other than a scene with Sally in which a knife gets a close-up. Maybe one of the early S6 episodes can begin with Glen, blank-faced as ever, pointing a rifle directly at the camera and firing at us, and then it can be revealed that he's just gotten into hunting or skeet shooting, and it will chill some people to the bone while others will say "What's so scary about that? Betty shot at the pigeons in S1 and it didn't bother anyone."
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#58

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 12:24 PM

Ha! There is something really funny in how MW doesn't understand why people find him creepy, and then seems to keep making the wrong choices to dispel the impression.

Personally, I like the scene where he's not wearing pants. Not because I had any interest in seeing Marten Weiner's pale bare legs, but I took the scene exactly the way SueB described it. He's living in a boy's dormitory and sleeps in underwear, and showing him with the coat over it showed a) that Sally was calling late enough that he'd been to sleep and b) what a boy at that time and place probably would be wearing. Had he been living at home he might have been in Mom-approved pjs and a bathrobe, but the coat and briefs/boxers says "boarding school"--and in a way that's really rather interesting given Glen's arc if you forget the creepiness for a moment.

One thing that I've always been aware of with Glen is that however large his crush on Betty looms for us, the difference between 9 and 13 would be far greater for Glen. Not that he would have ever forgotten Betty, but along with the basic, sometimes odd or troubling and definitely intense, personality that is Glen there's also the more generic growth from boy to teenager. To us he seems fixated on Sally, but he does have friends his own age, even if MW is sometimes ham-handed about showing it ("It's your sister, we're trying to figure out a time to ball!"). But it's also interesting for me to think of Glen being in boarding school because it is showing a background arc that started in S1 when Helen was the odd-woman out and her son was wandering the house looking for her and needing babysitters. Now he's been pushed out of the house completely, quite possibly because he continued fighting against the flow of things at home. I could swear there was a new stepfather established there, and maybe a new baby too. However unsuited to the job of "spirit guide" he seems to me, I do think he's been a consistent trailblazer in his own way that makes an interesting older-brother type friend to Sally, which seems to be what he wants to be to her. Their relationship doesn't seem like it's about either of them being incapable of being friends with other kids, just that they're the two children of divorce they know and they talk about adult things.
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#59

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 12:30 PM

Having spent 6 years in a boarding school myself, I think there are even additional factors to consider. I was in a girls boarding school but I think that the accelerated sex education you get living amongst your peers carries over whether in an all boys or all girls school. I mentioned on the Sally thread that in 1969 I was 12 (just before boarding school) and knew next to nothing about sex, perhaps even less than your average 12 year old girl at the time. By 1971, after 2 years in boarding school, I'm pretty confident I knew way more than your average 14 year old girl.

So I didn't find any of Glen's comments inappropriate given the setting. In fact, I think they were rather mild.
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#60

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Posted May 4, 2012 @ 1:02 AM

Not sure why people think Glen is fixated on Sally when she's the one calling him and he talks about the girlfriend he is trying to get over. Sally has heard it before, so she knows he has a life. I think they are friends who like to talk about the adults who bug them. He does try to act cool around her but he does that in front of the boarding school boys too, just the age when everything guys talk about unmonitored is about sex.
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