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Stefan and Damon Salvatore: Blood Brothers


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#31

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Posted Oct 11, 2010 @ 9:59 PM

They are far to in tune with each other and their routine for me to believe the I need help phone calls, strategy/planning, and Stefan takes point while Damon does follow through is something new with them.


I totally agree. When Stefan and Damon went to take down Mason in the woods, they didn't even need to strategize. Damon pointed out where Mason was, and they went for it. Every time they're working together on something, it's very streamlined because it's like they don't need to talk about it - they already know and agree.

I bet Damon’s 145 years of misery was more like he would show up and annoy Stefan, they would grow closer and work together when necessary, and then Damon would do something to intentionally piss Stefan off, and keep his distance for 15 or 20 years.


That's how I always envisioned it. Lexie knew Damon pretty well. She didn't like him, but she wasn't immediately afraid or even particularly cautious. And when Damon was talking about Stefan going to Harvard, it seemed like he knew a lot about what Stefan's life was like at that period, so he was there doing more than just killing people and threatening Stefan with exposure.

And in the pilot, when Stefan says that he hasn't seen Damon in fifteen years, he almost made it sound like that was a pretty long time for Damon to have stayed away.

Zach also seemed to know Damon pretty well, and vice versa, so I can see both brothers living at the boardinghouse in Mystic Falls, getting along almost as much as they do now.

Edited by ashes ashes, Oct 11, 2010 @ 10:00 PM.


#32

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Posted Oct 11, 2010 @ 10:28 PM

That's how I always envisioned their relationship. I've never really bought that Damon has spent the entire 145 years hating and torturing Stefan. I'm sure Damon has come to his baby brother's rescue more than a time or two, and vice versa. I love all the flashbacks from 1864, but I want some from the after Stefan and Damon were turned. I want their relationship fleshed out more. No matter which way this season goes down, they are going to have to stick together and I want to see how they've overcome their issues in the past to help each other out, because I don't buy that they never have.

#33

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Posted Oct 12, 2010 @ 8:03 AM

I thought what Stefan told Elena summed it up pretty well. Every time he trusted Damon and let him back in, Damon would do something to make Stefan regret it. I figure Damon wanted to be around Stefan, however, at some point he would start thinking about Katherine, do something to hurt Stefan and take off. Now that Damon knows what a selfish bitch Katherine really is, I want him to stick by Stefan through everything.

#34

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Posted Oct 12, 2010 @ 6:18 PM

Now that Damon knows what a selfish bitch Katherine really is, I want him to stick by Stefan through everything.


I think this is the key ingredient necessary to turn their cycle around. Now, Damon doesn't have to play passive aggressive tormentor, he can play older brother tormentor and focus his violence on the bitch herself.

#35

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Posted Oct 13, 2010 @ 2:43 AM

I thought what Stefan told Elena summed it up pretty well. Every time he trusted Damon and let him back in, Damon would do something to make Stefan regret it.


I forgot about that line. It really does say everything. There were plenty of times in their history when they grew close again, but then Damon would remember that he "hated" Stefan and he would cause trouble. I figure those probably weren't planned. Damon would have to be reminded, and then he would flip. Things started off in Mystic Falls a little differently this time around because of Elena.

In Blood Brothers, when Stefan and Damon are talking at the end, Damon says that he hadn't told Stefan about the tomb "Because I hated you and I still do", but I didn't find that line entirely believable. It was almost like when a little kid says, "I hate you."

Of course, that moment did come after Damon found out that Katherine was alive, that she knew where Damon was and "she didn't care." He knew Katherine was a bitch already. I think things are worse now, with Katherine telling Damon that she never loved him and that it was always Stefan, and Elena echoing the sentiment. But I don't think Damon is capable of what he always did in the past because I don't think he can turn off the pain as much anymore, and with the pain comes the guilt. He tried the being hated thing again, but it didn't work this time. And Damon did say to Katherine, "I don't do jealous anymore. Not with you." But I didn't quite believe him. Still, I think for the first time he's actually trying.

Also, in The Return, when Stefan first encounters Katherine he is immediately hostile with her. He's smart, and he knows that she's trouble, but I can't help but wonder if some of the rage he directed towards her wasn't on Damon's behalf.

Edited by ashes ashes, Oct 13, 2010 @ 2:44 AM.


#36

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Posted Oct 16, 2010 @ 2:37 PM

"Because I hated you and I still do"

I saw that as Damon saying, “I was mad at you, but now I realize I was angry with the wrong person, Katherine’s the one I hate, but there is no way in hell I’m going to admit that to you, of all people.”

Also, in The Return, when Stefan first encounters Katherine he is immediately hostile with her. He's smart, and he knows that she's trouble, but I can't help but wonder if some of the rage he directed towards her wasn't on Damon's behalf.

I agree. I believe Stefan is angry at Katherine for what she did to both him and Damon. Opening up that tomb, and Katherine not being in there caused both Damon and Stefan to reevaluate the last 145 years. Stefan told Damon in Fool Me Once, A Few Good Men, and The Return that Katherine wasn’t worth what Damon put himself through for her.

#37

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Posted Oct 21, 2010 @ 12:27 AM

I believe Stefan is angry at Katherine for what she did to both him and Damon.


I'd qualify this statement to include not only what she did to them individually, but what she did to them as brothers, too.

#38

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Posted Oct 21, 2010 @ 6:26 PM

I believe Stefan is angry at Katherine for what she did to both him and Damon.

I'd qualify this statement to include not only what she did to them individually, but what she did to them as brothers, too.


I wholeheartedly agree. I think Damon has been so focused on his jealousy, he hasn't seen what Stefan figured out: Katherine enjoyed driving them apart, it was part of her game. That's how I interpreted her little smile after both brothers offered to take her to the Founders' Ball. Maybe she couldn't stand the fact that Stefan loved Damon more than her?

#39

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Posted Oct 22, 2010 @ 10:15 AM

Katherine enjoyed driving them apart, it was part of her game.

And she didn’t really succeed. In the end, Stefan still chose Damon over Katherine, and despite everything Stefan loves Damon and vice versa. Now I need Damon to continue to choose Stefan over Katherine.

I loved Stefan and Damon arguing over Mason’s phone, Stefan scolding Damon for involving Jeremy and the look on Damon’s face, Damon practically snarling at Bonnie, “Help us,” and Stefan following up with, “He meant that in the nicest possible way with please on the end.”

#40

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Posted Oct 22, 2010 @ 11:53 AM

I say this a lot, but I really wish we'd get more scenes with Damon and Stefan just being brothers. They, to me, are the strongest relationship on this show and I want that focused on more. That, and they have awesome chemistry and burn the screen up with their pretty.

#41

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Posted Oct 22, 2010 @ 10:11 PM

As much as I relish the time these two are together in scenes, I'm content with the level of brotherly interaction we get, because it's always juicy good fun! In addition to the phone dance, and the thwacking, and the Stefan "interpreting" Damon, there's was another great small moment. When they overheard that Tyler gave Mason the moonstone, they kind of gave each other a small nod and without discussion headed off to hunt Mason down. It's those little moments that feel so very organic to me, and make the brotherly connection palpable even when it's not a big moment or a subject that is hit on time and again.

#42

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 4:05 AM

When they overheard that Tyler gave Mason the moonstone, they kind of gave each other a small nod and without discussion headed off to hunt Mason down. It's those little moments that feel so very organic to me, and make the brotherly connection palpable even when it's not a big moment or a subject that is hit on time and again.

Agreed, 100%. I think there was another moment like this back in Season 1, when Stefan called Damon at a time of distress or something, and Damon immediately knew something was wrong without Stefan even having to say anything. I just love those moments when they just get each other, and don't need words to communicate. It's so powerful.

On a lighter note, though, Stefan's "I see you've exercised your usual restraint" to Damon on seeing Mason's dead body remains my favourite line from the episode.

Edited by clooless, Oct 23, 2010 @ 11:03 AM.


#43

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 4:22 AM

Their chemistry is insane! I loved all their scenes together and now that Elena and Stefan have broken up, I hope to see more of Stefan and Damon together. I love the little details in the scenes between them.

"Damon, don't provoke her!"
"Wrong boy-toy!"

LOL

#44

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 11:15 AM

Originally I posted in quotes page but even more relevant here....

Then the scene in the study when Stefan finds Mason's body...

Stefan-"I see you exercised your usual restraint." Ha! So true.
Damon-"Last number called...who do you think that was."
Stefan-"Damon don't provoke her!"
Katherine-"Mason..."
Damon-"Wrong Boy toy!"

It was just a great ilustration as to why Damon though, he's quite bright enough and enterprisingly evil for short term schemes was never as good at effective long term masterminding of plots like Katherine is or Stefan (were Stefan not so noble,) could be...a complete lack of impulse control on Damon's part. Stefan's the younger but even when they were still human it's obvious Stefan was more mature, (though, Damon was obviously far more experienced with women-I bet Stefan was a virgin when he met Kat and Damon almost certainly wasn't.) and well...grounded then Damon.


]"Because I hated you and I still do"

I saw that as Damon saying, “I was mad at you, but now I realize I was angry with the wrong person, Katherine’s the one I hate, but there is no way in hell I’m going to admit that to you, of all people.”


ITA. As one person noted, whenever Damon tells Stefan "I hate you," it comes across as the "I hate you" of a small child. Which in terms of emotional maturity often seems to be where's Damon's at to be honest. He's an overgrown 170 something brat with fangs a combination that is both irritating, hilarious, and terrifying all at once. But I think Damon was forced to re-evaluate and do some soul searching, (a totally new experience for him,) after the tomb was opened; not just the discovery of Katherine's abandonment and betrayal but also by Stefan's behavior in "A Few Good Men.". Stefan the brother he's spent a 145 years tormenting, on behalf of a women who he realizes now never cared about him, shows obvious concern and care over Damon's mental state and is worried for his welfare. Notice we start seeing Damon ease off on his anti-Stefan gestures around that point; it's like Damon finally realized though, he couldn't admit it that it's his brother who really is the "love of his life," and it's time to start trying to keep him nearer. A big problem I have with pop culture these days is the way it always celebrates "true love" as eros and romantic love to the exclusion of all other relationships. Bella shall sacrifice her mother and father to be with Edward. In "Something Borrowed," the heroine is percieved as making the right decision to throw away a 25 year friendship with a woman who however flawed honestly sees her as a sister for a chance at a guy she's been having a clandestine affair with a few months who has proven he's willing to cheat on his fiancee with her best friend. Here we have a storyline suggesting the exact opposite; that the key mistake and tragedy the brothers Salvatore made was putting that hot Eros style attachment ahead of the kinship ties that truly mattered. And they did so of course at Katherine's malicious urging-she *did* set them up against each other on purpose and she certainly created conflict even if she could never erase the bond.

#45

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 11:23 AM

And they did so of course at Katherine's malicious urging-she *did* set them up against each other on purpose and she certainly created conflict even if she could never erase the bond.

And Stefan cautioned Damon against letting Katherine do it to them again. This is why I want Damon to kill Katherine to save Stefan.

Which in terms of emotional maturity often seems to be where's Damon's at to be honest. He's an overgrown 170 something brat with fangs a combination that is both irritating, hilarious, and terrifying all at once.

Damon can be very immature, however, there are times where he has a world weary maturity about him. When Jeremy told Damon he didn't want to be like his Uncle John, and hate all vampires. Damon said he understood his own father had hated vampires to. Damon didn't bother to go into the details of how his father murdered him and Stefan, how their father tried to kill Stefan again when Stefan when to say goodbye to him, and how that lead to Stefan feeding, and Stefan getting Damon to turn. He conveyed with a few words that he understood how Jeremy felt.

Damon's constant joking around is his cover. The real Damon rarely makes an appearance. Usually Damon's serious side comes out when Stefan is in trouble (when the tomb vampires were torturing him, when he was having trouble with the human blood, when Liz shot Stefan and he didn't move, etc.).

Edited by KatVamp, Oct 23, 2010 @ 12:07 PM.


#46

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 1:07 PM

Damon's constant joking around is his cover. The real Damon rarely makes an appearance. Usually Damon's serious side comes out when Stefan is in trouble (when the tomb vampires were torturing him, when he was having trouble with the human blood, when Liz shot Stefan and he didn't move, etc.).


That's what makes Damon's human side so much more powerful, to me. It just holds so much meaning because we rarely see it. He is a guy that has spent the better part of 145 years completely guarding himself. So, when his humanity and feelings come to the surface it's like a tidal wave that just falls over everything in its path. He has this innate ability to relate to the lowest depths of sadness, anger, guilt and loneliness inside of people that it just gets me every time. I know they call Stefan the tortured brother who broods all the time, but as the series has gone on, I see Damon as the more tortured brother.

#47

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 5:20 PM

I see them as the yin and yang of tortured. Stefan is tortured because he tries to be more human and repress his dark side, his weakness. Damon has always thought that he was the dark/bad brother and needs to repress his human side, his weakness.

I would love nothing better than for both brothers, in the end, to choose each other over anyone because their bond is truly unbreakable. I don't like the idea that Damon is becoming more human because of Elena. I like that it's because he's finally starting to realize that all this time, Stefan has and will be there for him.

ETA: how hot where both brothers in this episode?? Damon with carrying Mason and the chair pulling and Stefan with the lock breaking/metal tossing thing as if neither the wolf, chair or metal well cover weighed a thing! /shallow

Edited by confuzzled21, Oct 23, 2010 @ 5:22 PM.


#48

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 7:36 PM

Honestly, I was shocked in "Plan B" when Stefan walked in on Damon wrapping up a corpse and was totally fine with it.

Is that because Stefan is a horrible person? Damon's clearly insane, and he's been damaged goods since he was a human being, imo (I say that mostly because claiming the psycho killer monster screwing with your brother is the love of your life and you're willing to give up everything for her is evidence of a screwed-up person, imo). Stefan, though, I thought had a better handle on reality, and cared more about doing the "right" thing. I also give Damon a little leeway in that he's also skirting the edge of suicide, it seems like--back when he killed Jeremy, too, it seemed to me that he was talking about himself (needing to turn off some mental switch so you don't have to feel pain anymore, etc), and when he was talking to/about Mason, he said how they were just alike and so he knew Mason wanted to die. In my mind, Damon thinking both those people WANTED to die, and thinking he understood because he'd like to die, too, makes him killing them more ethical (in a "do unto others" kind of way--I think he'd want people to kill him/does want someone to kill him, so he's willing to kill others. I think that's what was behind taunting Katherine, too--a death wish, mixed with a desire for her attention). Stefan, however, is now trying to get physical stronger/get the physical advantage--by drinking human blood, by playing tricks--so he doesn't seem at all suicidal, which would make me assume he'd take killing more seriously. Anyway, this isn't to say Damon killing Mason was right (AT ALL!!! He's a terrible AND crazy person, imo), but I understand why Damon would be OK with doing it. On the other hand, I was shocked that Stefan seemed to agree that Mason's murder was for the best, or that he could at least live with it.

Is Stefan's blood-drinking and game-playing proof that he's becoming more like S1 Damon? Why doesn't he want to kill Damon, now that Damon is obviously a murderous beast? Does he think Katherine's driving Damon to it, so the solution would be to kill Katherine? Or has he given up on doing anything about Damon at all? Or is he OK with murder in general now?

Stefan seems suddenly OK with the idea of his brother being a psycho killer, when it used to bother him--he used to say Damon either had to change, or he'd have to kill him. Neither has really happened--Damon's still killing, and still kicking--so why is Stefan suddenly OK with this murderous status quo?!

#49

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 8:22 PM

Stefan seems suddenly OK with the idea of his brother being a psycho killer, when it used to bother him--he used to say Damon either had to change, or he'd have to kill him. Neither has really happened--Damon's still killing, and still kicking--so why is Stefan suddenly OK with this murderous status quo?!


Well, we have seen before that Stefan does value his own life and especially the life of his brother. Mason proved to them multiple times already that he was coming for them. So, I didn't expect Stefan to just sit around and wait for Mason to come kill him. In the world they're in, it's kill or be killed.

So, I don't see it as Stefan being okay with the whole murder thing. I see it as him being okay with a huge threat being eliminated. If Damon went out and just decided to start killing people around town that posed no threat to them he'd be pissed. However, Mason had already laced lemonade with vervain that burned Damon's insides. Then, Mason played bait so that the cops could come and take Damon and Stefan away to kill them. Obviously Mason was down with the whole murder thing, so why shouldn't Stefan be, not necessarily okay, but understanding of the fact that Mason needed to die? He saw Mason come after them after he tried to make peace once, so he had no reason to believe that Mason wouldn't come after them again. Also, he'd just been pulled out of a well filled with vervain and had his entire body burned, so I don't think he was feeling too many warm thoughts for the guy.

#50

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 9:01 PM

So, I don't see it as Stefan being okay with the whole murder thing. I see it as him being okay with a huge threat being eliminated. If Damon went out and just decided to start killing people around town that posed no threat to them he'd be pissed. However, Mason had already laced lemonade with vervain that burned Damon's insides. Then, Mason played bait so that the cops could come and take Damon and Stefan away to kill them. Obviously Mason was down with the whole murder thing, so why shouldn't Stefan be, not necessarily okay, but understanding of the fact that Mason needed to die? He saw Mason come after them after he tried to make peace once, so he had no reason to believe that Mason wouldn't come after them again. Also, he'd just been pulled out of a well filled with vervain and had his entire body burned, so I don't think he was feeling too many warm thoughts for the guy.


However, Mason offered up the olive branch first, and Damon did just decide to kill him! I'm gonna have to handwave this, because I don't think the Salvatores had a leg to stand on!

#51

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Posted Oct 23, 2010 @ 10:22 PM

He saw Mason come after them after he tried to make peace once, so he had no reason to believe that Mason wouldn't come after them again. Also, he'd just been pulled out of a well filled with vervain and had his entire body burned, so I don't think he was feeling too many warm thoughts for the guy.


It still seems to me that he'd have been more likely to run the guy out of town or figure out a way to blackmail Mason into not killing them, etc--back before Damon came back into his life, and Katherine came back into his life, and he started dosing himself with human blood.

It struck me that suddenly Stefan's up for playing mind-games on Katherine and on Elena's friends, drinking human blood for the added strength, neutralizing threats--even ones weaker than he is--through murder...that sounds more like Damon than Stefan to me. In fact, that's a lot like what Damon was like at the *beginning* of S1, before he started getting softer and making friends with people.

Maybe that's why Stefan and Damon have been getting along better lately? Stefan has become more like Damon? What's going to happen now that Elena's dumped him? That didn't go so well with the other brother, and now it seems that the Salvatores more alike than anyone would have thought, so...?

Also, I think it's interesting that as Stefan has grown harder and tougher and more protective of himself, it seems like Damon has totally lost it and gone into full-on death wish mode.

Doesn't it seem strange that Damon ISN'T trying to toughen up? Isn't it strange that he's not actually trying to drink as much human blood as possible, in order to be as strong as possible for any fights with Katherine? That's the MO Damon followed before, and it's the one Stefan's following now. He's also meanwhile calling Katherine up and telling her exactly what's going on with him, and trying (in a sad, half-hearted way) to guilt-trip her (about being her discarded boy-toy, etc). That sounds like someone who's either has a death wish or who is not thinking clearly/in an organized, self-protective way--or both. Add that to the "crazy eyes" Ian has been doing, and I don't think it's out of bounds to assume Damon is about four seconds away from losing complete touch with reality.

I'm surprised at how laissez faire Stefan is with Damon, because Damon is being so reckless and isn't thinking clearly. For everyone's safety, shouldn't Stefan try to be really clear with Damon what the (moral) lines are, and make sure he knows he'll have to die if he can't keep it together? That's what Stefan was doing back when Damon was just screwed up as opposed to totally nuts--but now it seems like Damon can do anything and Stefan's response will be an eyebrow-waggle and maybe a sigh--even when he finds Damon wrapping up a dead body! And besides the safety issue--isn't Stefan just plain sad for his brother? Doesn't he want to give Damon a little more emotional support? I know that sounds hopelessly girly, but Damon's obviously not OK, and Stefan's the person he loves most in the world. You'd think Stefan would make more of a point to be close to him at the moment, wouldn't you? They have been friendlier than they have for a long while, but the fact that Damon is still so upset about Elena of all people not wanting to be around him (wouldn't being around someone who looks just like Katherine and who also claims to be in love with Stefan be exactly the most heartbreaking person for someone in Damon's position to be around?) shows to me how distant the brothers still are.

This isn't to say anything bad about Stefan--he hasn't actually done anything *bad,* imo. It's more like: he seems to have changed, and his relationship with Damon seems to be notably less "angsty"--at least on Stefan's end--and he seems to have a totally different attitude towards Damon's past and current behavior. I wonder why or where that's going...and what it says about the brothers' interactions in the past (as in last season, not as in 1864, lol).

ETA: I also don't even think Stefan necessarily has any kind of obligation toward Damon just because they're brothers...but a totally whacked-out, unpredictable, or unable-to-think-clearly-re: Katherine Damon would be a HUGE liability for Stefan. You'd think he'd want to neutralize that, right? Either by soothing or scaring Damon into submission? Instead, he lets Damon do what he wants, doesn't seem to be at all emotionally connected to what Damon's going through, and doesn't really seem to even consider stepping in except to tell Mason he can't straight-up murder his brother. That doesn't sound like the "anxious to do the right thing" Stefan of yesteryear. Meaning, of last year.

Edited by rue721, Oct 23, 2010 @ 10:29 PM.


#52

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 12:01 AM

I'm sure Stefan wants to offer his brother support, but Damon's kind of a tough guy to give emotional support to. They also have this huge issue that answers to the name of Katherine lurking about, wandering into homes and making humans stab themselves. I think both of them would like to maybe talk things out a bit more, cause they did have more in depth discussions last year, but they realize that they have issues that are a lot bigger than what they're feeling at the moment.

I think if the situation were anything other than what it is right now with Katherine, Stefan would be a lot more rough with Damon. However, he's realized that Katherine is straight up crazy and right now anything goes. They have a huge threat in the town that puts their lives in danger and the lives of everyone they care about. I'm thinking they don't really believe there's much time to sit around and figure out what their actions mean morally. They can't run the risk of letting Mason go off alive with the promise of leaving town. The rules of yesteryear don't apply in the year of Katherine, in my mind. I'd personally rather someone play it fast and loose morally to eliminate Katherine than try and walk the line of being a good guy.

#53

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 12:20 AM

I'd personally rather someone play it fast and loose morally to eliminate Katherine than try and walk the line of being a good guy.


I think that attitude makes sense...but the reason Katherine must be eliminated is that she's an amoral, destructive force. I thought that was why Stefan (formerly) wanted to eliminate Damon, too--or at least, that was why he was considering whether he'd "have" to kill his brother.

If Stefan becomes an amoral, destructive force, what's the difference between him and Katherine?

Doesn't his moral right/imperative to kill her then go right out the window? At that point, when he's no longer her moral superior, would he just be killing her out of spite or jealousy or for fun?

Not that he's totally amoral now, or even particularly destructive. He just seems *a lot* more comfortable with it than he used to be, and to me, where that really shows up is in his laissez faire attitude toward Damon's misdeeds.

And though Damon can't be counted on for much, he can usually be counted on to give Stefan a different, less flattering take on Stefan's own behavior...what with the Katherine mind-f*ck going on with him at the moment, though, he seems to be pretty much ignoring Stefan/lost in his own head. And Stefan's not exactly probing for his brother's POV.

I'm not sure that the blood-drinking is a good idea--isn't that what made him go off-track before?

Anyway, something interesting about that is: Damon actually USED to be fairly moral-minded, I guess, in that he decided not to fight for the Confederacy. I'm going to go out on a limb and fanwank that it wasn't ACTUALLY because of Katherine. I mean, he'd known her like a day at that point, and he was giving up his relationship with his father, his standing in the community, and basically all his career prospects in Mystic Falls by deserting. He could even have been killed. Even now, he's not wantonly killing--he's still killing with purpose.

Maybe it's sort of like, the brothers have to be in moral balance? The more depraved one is, the more moral the other has to become? So as Damon grew more depraved in the last century-odd years, Stefan became vegetarian, tried to live as human, etc...and now that Stefan is going back on human blood, is becoming more laissiez faire about killing, is becoming more brutal/hardened generally...maybe Damon will grow more moral? Despite being insane, he's still more moral than he was when he first got to Mystic Falls, already.

Anyway, just a thought :)

ETA:
Maybe it's not just a moral balance, either--maybe it's a strength balance, too. When Damon first came to town, he was by far the physically stronger and more wily of the two brothers--but he doesn't actually seem to have much bloodlust anymore (he seems to be killing out of pity and bitterness more than anything--he didn't even try to suck Mason dry). Meanwhile, Stefan is going back on human blood specifically for greater strength, and has been more into scheming and seems physically stronger than he did before, too.

Maybe in a way, the two brothers are two halves of a whole? Or like they are on either side of a teeter-totter, and the more of something one has, the less the other does? Is this wayyyy too abstract? Ok, I'm going to eat dinner and quit with the lit crit. :P

Edited by rue721, Oct 24, 2010 @ 12:24 AM.


#54

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 2:27 AM

If Stefan becomes an amoral, destructive force, what's the difference between him and Katherine?

Doesn't his moral right/imperative to kill her then go right out the window? At that point, when he's no longer her moral superior, would he just be killing her out of spite or jealousy or for fun?

Not that he's totally amoral now, or even particularly destructive. He just seems *a lot* more comfortable with it than he used to be, and to me, where that really shows up is in his laissez faire attitude toward Damon's misdeeds.


Oh, I think both Damon and Stefan have a long way to go before they lose the moral high ground to Katherine. But even if that weren't true, I don't think being complicit in Mason's death is so awful. Is Mason a danger to Stefan and Damon? Yes, he is -- he's the lackey to an amoral vampire who has already killed/turned Caroline and threatened to kill Elena, Matt, Jeremy and Jenna; he very nearly got Stefan killed TWICE (in the cellar and in the well - though he only knew about the first when he helped kidnap Mason), plus his werewolf bite is, to all accounts, utterly lethal, besides. What kind of idiot would he have to be to run that dude out of town, when Mason can come right back at the full moon and kill Stefan (or Damon or Caroline)? They also have no idea what the moonstone does or why Katherine wants Mason -- but they can guess it's not a good thing, so it also makes tactical sense to take away both. He already tried his usual Plan A (truce) and Plan B (threaten ominously), and they didn't work.

An important thing to remember, too, is that Mason is a supernatural creature. We viewers may think of Mason as a human with a peculiar time-of-the-month problem, but I'm not at all sure Stefan or Damon would agree with that. And Stefan has never had a problem with killing non-humans (vampires) for far less threat than Mason.

So while I don't disagree that Stefan's gotten harder since Katherine came back (this started before the H!B desensitization thing, IMO - note how he ran Jon out of town), I would guess that Mason's death was not ever going to be up there as something that would make him too sorry about it. He decided with the vervainade that Mason had to die (it wasn't just that Damon got hurt drinking it -- it was that they had gotten EXPOSED). Events afterward continued to prove that Mason was a threat, and so he let Damon take care of it and wasn't going to whine about how it was all so terrible or whatever after the fact.

Edited by Lizardbeth J, Oct 24, 2010 @ 2:28 AM.


#55

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 9:40 AM

He decided with the vervainade that Mason had to die (it wasn't just that Damon got hurt drinking it -- it was that they had gotten EXPOSED). Events afterward continued to prove that Mason was a threat, and so he let Damon take care of it and wasn't going to whine about how it was all so terrible or whatever after the fact.

I agree with this. I think Stefan knew even as he was making his peace offering that it wasn't going to stick, which is why he added on the threat when Mason hesitated. He even told Damon right after the talk that he thought Mason was going to come after them the first chance he got, which tells me he was already gearing up for a fight. In typical Stefan fashion, though, he didn't want to do anything until Mason showed them he was planning on following through with his threat, which he did. Damon getting vervained (I love Caroline for making this a verb) was the last straw, and had the brothers not been shot down by Liz then, I think they would've both gone ahead and finished him. So it doesn't surprise me that Stefan reacted so calmly to Damon finally killing him, because they'd both been planning to do it anyway. (Also, by that time, they would've received additional info from Elena about how Mason almost strangled her defending himself against Caroline, and we know neither brother takes well to people threatening Elena.) Plus, had he been allowed to live, they would have faced the possibility not only of him coming back during the full moon to get his revenge, but also of him going back to Liz and exposing them. There really was no other way to go about it.

#56

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 12:51 PM

But even if that weren't true, I don't think being complicit in Mason's death is so awful.


Thanks LizardBeth J and clooless--when you put it that way, Mason's death does seem necessary.

Do you guys think Stefan would have ever done it himself? Do you think he likes that Damon's willing to do the dirty "bad-guy" work like torturing and killing someone who, for all current intents and purposes, is an ordinary human being at the moment? So he just waited until Damon got it done?

I was also struck by the fact that Damon tortured Mason while telling Jeremy he [Damon] and Mason were just alike--sick. Then, when Damon killed Mason, he literally ripped out his heart and then called his ex--double sick. I thought it was bizarre in general that Damon killed Mason without feeding on him. You'd think he'd want to try werewolf blood, and would be eager to drink a full-grown, strong man's blood in general (I mean because Mason's got to have a lot of blood in him, and maybe it's special blood besides). That torture/kill-without-feeding sequence convinced me that Damon actually is nuts. I wonder if the way Stefan has decided to deal with that/neutralize that is to give Damon plenty of bloody, cruel work to do? It kind of worked, in this episode--Damon was so busy with Mason he pretty much kept out of Stefan and Elena's hair. Or maybe he has given up trying to keep Damon from being bloodthirsty, and is now using that bloodthirstiness by steering Damon toward targets it would be more convenient for both to have dead?

I know this is sounding like I don't think Damon has a mind of his own, or that Stefan has the power to control him...but I kind of think that's the case, at least right now, because Damon is not thinking clearly while Stefan is, and because Stefan must have some kind of power over him (I think mostly its just that Damon loves Stefan--not anything all that mysterious, lol) since he has everything Damon wants and yet Damon is still willing to go to him for help, take scoldings from him, spend time with him, etc. Also, I'm wondering if Damon has always tended to do the dirty work generally. That's why I bring up the idea that maybe their morality/purity has to be in a balance--the purer Stefan is, the more depraved Damon must be, etc.

What brings that to mind more than anything is how the brothers were in the flashback episodes. The more lovey-dovey Stefan is with Katherine, the lustier and more cruel her relationship with Damon becomes. The more we see Mr. Salvatore acting close and intimate with Stefan, the more distant he seems from Damon. It also seems to happen in the present, though; the gentler Stefan is--for example, in "Friday Night Bites" he doesn't even want to knock the other football players down too hard, and his relationship with Elena is blossoming--the crueler Damon is. That's the episode when Damon rips out the coach's heart in cold blood.

There's actually a tradition for that in Jewish lit, in which the man is supposed to be cerebral and floating above the Earth so he can spend his time figuring out God/higher things, while the woman is supposed to be of the Earth and to be all about the practical and concrete and domestic--like, husband and wife have to exist in balance, where the closer the man gets to God, the closer the woman has to get to the Earth. That same kind of zero-sum thinking makes me wonder if without Damon's depravity, could Stefan have become so pure? And what happens if Damon stops being so depraved? Or Stefan stops being so pure?

Maybe it doesn't matter, because Stefan always will be fairly pure and Damon likewise depraved...but the idea of Stefan drinking human blood while Damon doesn't even bother drinking Mason's really intrigues me (lol) because that does make it seem like maybe there's some sort of shift happening/about to happen? (I don't mean that in a shipper way, lol, I just mean within the brothers' relationship).

#57

111228

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 1:16 PM

Stefan is not forcing Damon to do the dirty work for them, Damon chose to kill Mason the way he did. Stefan's sarcastic remark that he sees Damon used retrained as usual was his way of saying the showy way he killed Mason was unnecessary. He can't exactly put Damon on his knees and spank him for how he went about killing Mason but he made it clear he wasn't down with the method without coming of as holier than thou. That said Stefan is not above torturing someone he see as a threat to get information, he did it with katherine and even if we see Mason as human, they know he is not and he is threat to them, he'd have tortured him to get information from him too if Damon hadn't done it. I just dont think he'll rip his heart out like Damon did.

As far as Damon not taking any precaution to face Katherine like Stefan is, I'm not surprised because unlike Stefan, Damon is arrogant enough to think he can take Katherine just the way he is.

The role reversal between the brothers? Yes I believe there is hope it happens eventually. Even those that claim Stefan bores them to death are ever hopeful Damon becomes more like Stefan. Go figure.

Edited by 111228, Oct 24, 2010 @ 1:30 PM.


#58

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 1:34 PM

As far as Damon not taking any precaution to face Katherine like Stefan is, I'm not surprised because unlike Stefan, Damon is arrogant enough to think he can take Katherine just the way he is.


We've seen that Damon doesn't need to take as many precautions as Stefan. They've made a point in showing through the series that Stefan's animal diet keeps him weaker when he gets hurt. He's strong enough in fights, but it's a lot easier once he's down to keep him down. It takes him a long time to recover, whereas Damon seems to bounce back fairly quickly. That's been because Damon is on human blood. Stefan has realized that to even have a shot he has to have some human blood in him, because one good hit and he's done otherwise. It's a liability to himself, Damon, and everyone they're protecting for him to not be in the best shape he can be in. The only thing that we know of that Damon can do to make himself stronger is work up a resistance to vervain. Why has that little tidbit not been touched on again?

#59

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 2:24 PM

They've made a point in showing through the series that Stefan's animal diet keeps him weaker when he gets hurt.


Damon specifically tells Stefan quite a few times that drinking human blood is his only option because being a weak, anemic vampire is dangerous. When he showed Stefan all those displays of strength early on--compelling Vicky to think Stefan hurt her, etc--he was making the point that he was strong because he was ONLY vampire, whereas Stefan was weak because he was trying to be more human--and that Stefan should go back on the human blood for his own safety. Demon also killed the football coach to show his mental toughness--which was entirely based on him being a human-blood-sucking vampire.

I think drinking human blood makes physical sense for Stefan, and shows how much Katherine scares him. I think Damon has always drunk human blood and was never willing to go "vegetarian" specifically because he thinks doing so is physically dangerous--which actually shows his general lack of physical confidence/arrogance, imo. Up until now, Stefan has thought he could get by without being as strong and tough and committed to being a vampire as he could be--he's comfortable and feels relatively secure living life in a perpetually weakened state--whereas Damon has always thought and still thinks he has to be as strong and tough and vampiric as possible in order to live. I think, if anything, that shows Stefan is more confident, and it's only when Katherine starts threatening him that he becomes less confident and starts thinking of physical threats in the way Damon always has.

The only thing that we know of that Damon can do to make himself stronger is work up a resistance to vervain. Why has that little tidbit not been touched on again?


I don't know! You'd think Damon would be ALL OVER that little tidbit. He hasn't exactly been acting in his own best interests lately, though. He didn't drink Mason's blood, he hasn't been killing anyone else to suck them dry, he has stayed away from Katherine except when breaking up her relationships and telling her to come after him, he does and says all the things that would specifically drive Elena from him (killing Jeremy, then saying he hadn't seen the ring). I think he has kind of a death wish, because that's not actually like him. Usually, Damon's all about neutralizing threats and staying at his physical peak and being as mentally tough and cold-hearted as possible. He's been pretty quiet about it, but honestly, I don't think he's in his right mind right now--he doesn't seem himself.

Stefan is not forcing Damon to do the dirty work for them, Damon chose to kill Mason the way he did.


If Stefan thought Mason had to be killed, he could have done it himself. He also could have made Damon promise he wouldn't kill Mason alone. Either way would have resulted in a more humane death for Mason. Stefan knew Damon would get around to killing Mason, and sooner rather than later, and that Damon's way of killing him would likely be insane and horrible, because Damon is feeling insane and horrible right now. But Stefan just let him do it by himself anyway.

I'm not saying Stefan's responsible for Damon's behavior, I just think that if Damon's behavior actually were repugnant to him (which it should be, according to the way Stefan used to think), he would have taken practical steps to stop it. The fact that he just let Damon take care of the Mason problem for them both, and do it completely Damon's way (which Stefan knew was going to be disgusting in any case--and especially so because Mason was seeing Katherine), makes me think he's not actually that disturbed by Damon's behavior and might actually find his cruelty a useful tool. Because he is amoral and disgusting, Damon is willing to take care of the crueler, dirtier aspects of the brothers' lives (like torturing info from someone and then killing that person is an extremely painful way), which allows Stefan to keep his hands clean/concentrate on the larger plans. So it's sort of not in Stefan's best interest at this point to encourage Damon to be more moral and compassionate...and so he's not doing it. That disturbs me because I actually did think Stefan was at heart a good guy--now, I'm not sure.

And actually, it makes me wonder if its possible for a vampire to be a good-hearted person? What does that mean for Caroline? There's been this big show about how she's still herself, but maybe she really isn't? I never believed Damon's line about vampires being able to turn off their feelings, because they actually always seemed very emotional and pretty tortured by their own propensity toward violence and cruelty...but maybe they do have such a different view or mortality and physical pain that they can't understand human morality or real compassion? I dunno. As the brothers become closer and seem more into being vampires--even getting back into that feud with werewolves, they're both becoming distant from Elena and their other human "friends." That makes me wonder whether them becoming closer is actually a good thing?

#60

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Posted Oct 24, 2010 @ 3:05 PM

I think it's really hard to balance out what the guys are turning into and how Stefan is becoming more morally ambiguous because Katherine is such a huge thing. We've seen that any way they have ever handled a problem before is completely useless. It's hard to play by a rulebook when you're playing against someone who has absolutely no rules or limits. We've seen that Katherine isn't above anything. If Stefan or Damon were running around trying to still play nice and make peace and be "moral", I'd probably be asking them what the eff they were thinking. Every time this season that they've tried to do things in their usual way they've been shown that it doesn't work. I think Stefan is still a good-hearted guy, but that he turns it off sometimes because being a good person can't factor into a lot of the problems they have at the moment. Trying to be good would only get Stefan and multiple killed.

I'm not saying Stefan's responsible for Damon's behavior, I just think that if Damon's behavior actually were repugnant to him (which it should be, according to the way Stefan used to think), he would have taken practical steps to stop it.


I think that the reason we didn't have Stefan around for the torture wasn't because he didn't have an issue with how Damon would handle the situation. They realized they only had a small window of time to get Mason, get information from him, and then get the moonstone. Katherine has this ability to always be ahead of them, so I think they thought the best option was to divide and conquer, because if they'd stuck together the odds would have been greater that Katherine would have found out and then their plan would be ruined.

Usually, Damon's all about neutralizing threats and staying at his physical peak and being as mentally tough and cold-hearted as possible. He's been pretty quiet about it, but honestly, I don't think he's in his right mind right now--he doesn't seem himself.


I think Damon is completely fighting to survive right now. He has realized that he died trying to save someone who didn't need to be saved. He's realized he died for nothing, absolutely nothing. Then, even though we've seen him realize at different times over the first season that Katherine screwed him over multiple times and didn't seem to care about him, he still held out hope. Now he's been faced with the fact that he spent 145 years loving someone to the point of destruction and he finds out that she never even wanted him.

I think he's completely lost and drowning, trying to reconcile the fact that everything he's done since he met Katherine was for nothing. This is a man with a lot of pride and he feels completely used and embarrassed. I think he's doing his best to remain normal, but that there's a storm swirling under the surface that is two seconds from consuming him every day. I'm personally waiting for the moment where he truly breaks. I'm not talking where he lashes out and does something destructive, but where he hits rock bottom. If we don't get a scene of him facing his past and all of his decisions and feeling completely broken I'll be upset, because I think his character needs that.