9 replies to this topic

[TWoP Howard]

Played by Ron Perlman, he is a founding member and the President of SAMCRO, husband to Gemma and stepfather to Jax.

If you have any ideas for the thread title, post them here, along with your thoughts about the character.

[elkana]

And I don't watch "Breaking Bad" (but I've heard it's awesome)...but could anyone who does watch it share with the rest of us a comparison/contrast between Clay's slow descent and Bryan Cranston's character's? (And I apologize, Mods, if it doesn't belong here...wasn't seeing where this would fit exactly.)

As per instructions in the ep thread I am responding to this question here. Also, no one has posted here before? Really?

Anyway, as a diehard BB fan with great respect for both shows I would say the trajectory between Clay and Walter White (the Bryan Cranston character) is similar in the sense that for both it is a descent into darkness, but it is different in that they are starting from a very different place.

Clay began already as an outlaw. Sons of Anarchy has run guns from the onset of the show, which seems to be largely at Clay's bidding and as a character Clay from the moment we met him had already engaged in illegal activity and violence.

By contrast, Walt on BB began as the antithesis of an outlaw. He began as a kind of schubby high school teacher who had led a quiet life and had been the epitome of the law abiding citizen who played by the rules. As the show has progressed he has evolved into a meth producing mastermind capable of startling acts of violence, manipulation and cruelty.

And if you haven't watched BB it is well worth checking out, imho.

[TWoP Howard]

I sign off on all of that. I think Clay chugs along in his life, and most of the time it works for him to be the paternal club president. When he feels that the club is threatened, then he gets nasty. Now he is the one specifically under threat, and he’s showing that he’s willing to kill a member of his family to protect himself. Walter has at least, jumped in a couple of times to save his brother-in-law from being killed.

Also, as you mentioned, he’s now been in the life for decades. Has the show done much with why Clay joined, or what his childhood was like? To me, SoA is more about showing a group of people living life outside of the mainstream, and the subculture they’ve developed. BB does show some details about the life of people in the drug trade, but mostly shows Walter’s decent from the schlubby schoolteacher to, as the creator put it, Scarface, in the course of a year.

Both men, though, are absolutely convinced that they are doing it for family, and rationalize their actions that way all the time, Walter even more than Clay. I think both shows make it clear that both characters are really all about doing it for themselves.

Walter is smarter, and a better strategist, but not as good at it as he thinks he is. No one could be as good at anything as Walter thinks he is.

In any case, BB is definitely worth watching. What a ride.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Nov 5, 2011 @ 3:54 PM.

[BakerX2]

Difference between Clay and Walt are like night and day: Clay knows that he's a bad guy, which is why he has no real problems doing what he does this season. Walt is a cowardly little shit who does evil (the amount of lives destroyed and people killed as collatoral damage because of Walt is far greater than what Clay has done in terms of scale) and moreso, constantly creates bullshit lies that he treats as the Gospel in order to justify himself being "the good guy".

The biggest thing would be how they deal with their respective man-children: Clay has managed to keep Jax under his thumb with zero problems and even granting him the illusion that Jax has a say in how the club is run. Not to mention Wendy, as Clay supported Jax through that crisis quite well. And even now, with Jax rebelling against Clay, Clay has managed to instill enough paternal love into Jax's head that even when Jax is threatening to crush Clay's hands over a nasty remark about Tara, Jax behaves in a manner where Clay manages to survive unscathed save for a warning for a remark that would get Walt punched in the face and given a black eye/busted lip.

Walt on the other hand is horrific towards Jesse, mainly because Walt is a bully and a coward who needs someone weak to torment because of the fact that the world around him treats Walt like crap on a regular basis, due to Walt's out of control ego. Walt can't stand up to his wife or his bosses so he takes out his anger upon Jesse, who becomes his whipping boy. God knows how many crisises in Breaking Bad could have been prevented if Walt had treated Jesse like a human being, rather than his bitch.

If Walt was in Clay's role, Walt would have been the cliched evil step-father towards Jax and probably WOULD have driven him away from home come his 18th birthday as far as treating Jax poorly and basically causing him and Tara to ride out of Charming, never to look back at the place. At which point, Gemma would probably have had Walt murdered and had to come up with some sort of alliance with Piney and Bobby to ensure she retained some position of power in the club as owner of the group's main means of legal financial support in the form of the garage, all the while having to lure Jax back and scheme to ensure Jax (assuming he did come back) a chance to retain the throne and possibly tossing Tara money to pay for medical school in order to keep Tara on her good side in order to make Jax think mommy dearest was on the level.

Meanwhile, if Clay was in Walt's shoes, Clay would have managed to keep Jesse from self-destructing (preventing a good amount of grief Walt went through) and would have had a much more tolerable alliance with Gus that would ensure that Clay wouldn't have to deal with Gus trying to divide and conquer the two. Hank may end up getting killed by the twins and Skylar would have left him, but Clay would be in a much better place than Walt is.

Both are bastards but Clay at least is more or less at peace with his evil, whereas Walt is so snivelling about his true nature that you want to slap him and yell at him to embrace his inner villain.

[elkana]

Another thing that has occured to me that both Clay and Walt have in common is that they have both become consumed by greed, and that they are rationalizing their respective need to bank some big coin because of medical conditions that have made them fearful.

For Clay, it is his arthritis and losing his grip (literally and figuratively); and Walt, obviously, is facing his mortality and afraid of dying of cancer (which similarly you could easily argue is both literal and figurative). Both have a sort of mental deadline for cashing out with as much money as possible before some physical malady catches up with them.

BakerX2, you make a good point about how different the dynamic is between Clay/Jax and Walt/Jesse. And Clay is way more of a team player. There will never be a vote at the table with Walt!

[Dis Gruntled]

I've wanted Clay dead at least since made that girl that Half-Sack liked (Cherry?) screw him because he overheard Half-Sack say Gemma was hot. What a petty SOB.

[starwolf]

In "Hands" was Clay implying killing JT was Gemma's idea, or at least that is what Clay will tell Jax, ruining his relationship with Gemma. Jax might not totally believe Clay, but considering it as a possibility might be just as bad.

[Raider Duck]

So Clay's not dead, but from his standpoint, it's something worse: He'll be the old man of the club, with no juice or pull. The club President (who hates his guts) is keeping him around solely to deal with the Irish, and his former Sergeant-at-Arms will probably be banging his ex-wife by next season.

Still don't feel sorry for him, though.

[TWoP Howard]

Nope. And he still has his arthritic hands to deal with, and a group of guys who are going to be less inclined to make allowances for that.

[doomblade403x]

I predict he will find creative ways to disrupt the social order of the MC. He is going to hate losing power, and will stop at nothing to get it back. Regardless of his own actions causing his downfall, he will stop at nothing to get back what's his.