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The Borgias: The Popes Get Nekkid!


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#1171

ElectricBoogalo

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 4:50 AM

So, because of that scene where Antonio (I think? Micheletto's lover) first shows up at MamaMicheletto's house, I thought that he was Micheletto's brother. So when they started stripping at the graveyard, I honestly thought for a moment that the show was going into actual incest, gay incest too boot. Between this show and recently rereading A Game of Thrones (and watching that show), I see incest as if I were an eight-year-old moppet and incest was dead people.


I think his name was Augustino, but I thought he was Micheletto's brother too when he came into the house. When he showed up at the graveyard, I thought that his "brother" had helped kill Micheletto's father and that's why they were there, so when they started stripping I was like whoa, did they kill their dad because he found out they were having gay incestuous sex?! Like you, I watch Game of Thrones so apparently I am now seeing incest everywhere too.

I actually said "YES!" out loud when Cesare stabbed Sforza in the hand. That alone was enough to make me happy but once he stabbed him in the throat and then started gutting him, I started clapping my hands. Then I started wondering if my gleeful reaction to murder meant I'd end up like Micheletto. I only wish that they had modern technology so that Cesare could have recorded stabbing Giovanni and shown it to Lucrezia later. I guess a bloody knife will have to suffice. I don't know if I've been so happy to see a smarmy jackass die this season (please tell me there's no way that olde tyme-y healers could keep Sforza alive after all those wounds). Maybe Tyler on Revenge, but even that didn't make me cheer the way this attack did.

People really get shit done when Rodrigo is away, don't they?

They really really do. Rodrigo should get out of town more often. Then again, I wonder what his reaction to the holy trinity of Lucrezia, Vanozza, and Giulia working together to make the brothels nicer in exchange for getting dirt on all of his cardinals will be. He might approve in theory and then take it back when the cardinals get pissed about being blackmailed.

This weeks gratuitous sex scenes didn't involve Rodrigo for once.

I fully support this new (if probably temporary) trend! I don't want to sound ageist, but I do not need to see Jeremy Irons naked every week. I've seen enough of his movies that I could live the rest of my life without seeing him naked ever again. Francois Arnaud, on the other hand, is welcome to be naked much more often. It was also nice to see Micheletto with his lover (heh, I feel like that creepy couple on SNL for using the word "lover"). I just wish it hadn't ended so badly.

On a shallow note, Augustino's hair reminded me so much of Paolo on Friends. I checked the credits though, and Augustino was played by Darwin Shaw, not Cosimo Fusco.
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#1172

bluvelvet

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 6:29 AM

I love the actress who played Lady Sforza; she enjoyed screwing around with Cesar until she learned a valuable lesson: You don't screw around with Cesar. Ever.


Basically, I didn't like how she was playing with Cesare but I guess she learned a very valuable lesson. Actually given the previews I knew they were going to have sex but I wondered if they were going to have a continuous affair over a few episodes, well we have our answer.

I guess a bloody knife will have to suffice. I don't know if I've been so happy to see a smarmy jackass die this season


Smarmy is the perfect word to describe Sforza. He also came across as insufferable in the scene with Cesare and the munching annoyed me but that came to a brutal end.

Edited by bluvelvet, May 7, 2012 @ 6:32 AM.

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#1173

Princess Aldrea

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 8:45 AM

As for Michelleto, nothing that dude does anymore surprises me.

The one thing he does that surprises me is failing to kill whoever he happens to be talking to when there are no witnesses. Apparently Micheletto is saner than I tend to think of him as.

He might approve in theory and then take it back when the cardinals get pissed about being blackmailed.

I don't think he will. After all, he has fun punishing them. Remember their "repenteace" scene for losing Rome? And was he back in Rome at the end? If he was then he'd be pissed at them for not helping resuce the children and whatnot.

Smarmy is the perfect word to describe Sforza. He also came across as insufferable in the scene with Cesare and the munching annoyed me but that came to a brutal end.

I'm glad Cesare remembered his promise.

I don't understand Della Rovere's plan. He wants to give the Pope cantarella? Yeah, that's a great plan but isn't the whole point that they have no idea what it is or how to get their hnads on some? The poison would have to be slow-acting or the taster couldn't give the okay and I'm sure there are tasteless poisons. Why can't Della Rovere just have the poison put into the food or wine and not sacrifice someone's life? A non-involved taster that couldn't taste the slow-acting poison should work just fine.

Edited by Princess Aldrea, May 7, 2012 @ 8:46 AM.

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#1174

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 8:52 AM

Katerina Sforza was fantastic. She's basically the anti-Ursula. I loved how she was pumping (literally and metaphorically) Cesare for information, trying to confirm that the Roman cannons were fake. He's too smart to give that secret away though. If it'd been Juan, he would have spilled the beans in a heartbeat.

Speaking of Juan, I noticed David Oakes wasn't listed in the credits. not that I missed him one bit.

I laughed out loud at Pierro d'Medici imitating Savonarola.

The C plot with the three women didn't mesh with everything else, but I assume it was more set-up that will pay off later. I did notice that they're playing with the Three Faces of Eve trope.
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#1175

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 10:50 AM

So glad I wasn't the only one expecting Micheletto to kill his lover. Micheletto kills everyone. I do like the return of Machiavelli. He shot up his eyebrows at one of Rodrigo's suggestions to get rid of Savonarola. You can just see the wheels turning.

I liked Caterina Sforza being true to character even though I always want Cesare to win. (Yeah, I said it. I want Cesare to get the best of everyone all the time. So what that he was a pretty vile guy. The magic of hotness.) Caterina was a strong woman who bowed to no one...for years. Cesare had to kidnap her children and set siege to Forli.

Edited by MarenAte, May 7, 2012 @ 12:33 PM.

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#1176

braggtastic

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 11:08 AM

I need help from a historian or just someone who knows these kind of things. Did part of the Vatican's ceiling really collapse during the Borgia pope's reign due to lightning? Jeremy Irons acted the hell out of that scene - poor little broken altar boy.
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#1177

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 3:08 PM

I noticed that Cesare's humorous teasing of Micheletto ceased abruptly after being told that the assassin had killed his own father. Cesare now realizes that his companion is not a person to be trifled with.(it was apparent that Micheletto did not enjoy Cesare's joking remarks in front of his mother)
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#1178

December13

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 3:20 PM

Did part of the Vatican's ceiling really collapse during the Borgia pope's reign due to lightning?

Well, if this represented St.Peter's Basilica, the answer is no. St.Peter's Basilica was built on the remains of Old St.Peter's Basilica (and I use term "remains" loosely). The fact is the Old one, haven been neglected during the period of the Avignon Papacy, was in bad repair, and Pope Julius II (oh, yes, della Rovere himself) in 1505 made a decision to demolish the ancient basilica, which had many people of the time shocked, and replace it with a monumental structure to house his enormous tomb. So, basically, dear ol' Pope tear down the building that could be preserved for he wanted to build himself a grand tomb... talk about the issues the man had...

And I have one question. When did Micheletto became soooo HOT?!?!?! I mean, he was always extremely interesting character, actor is good to watch, but he was never ever this hot. Or I was blinded by the looks of Cesare to give Micheletto the chance.

Edited by December13, May 7, 2012 @ 3:29 PM.

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#1179

Princess Aldrea

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 3:44 PM

I noticed that Cesare's humorous teasing of Micheletto ceased abruptly after being told that the assassin had killed his own father.

I wonder why he did that. Was the father abusive?
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#1180

brothertonbanks

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 4:10 PM

Young Micheletto had whip marks on his back which looked like they had healed many years ago. I thought Old Man Micheletto was also a professional assassin.

I was wondering about the location shooting for the show. Would the Catholic authorities let their churches be used?

They're in the third season and are maybe halfway through Rodgrigo's reign, so it could go on for many more years.
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#1181

Princess Aldrea

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 4:17 PM

They're in the third season

Second.
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#1182

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 4:21 PM

They're in the third season and are maybe halfway through Rodgrigo's reign, so it could go on for many more years.

Second season. I remember an interview François Arnaud (I think Showtime's casting Cesare) did where he talked about if he gotten the Cesare role, it would change his life for the next four years. Considering the Tudors ended with it's fourth season and historical series have a tendency to speed through time, I think four seasons might be the ending point.

Edited by jr352, May 7, 2012 @ 4:22 PM.

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#1183

brothertonbanks

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Posted May 7, 2012 @ 4:39 PM

Second season. I had The Big C on my brain. Anyway, at the pace they're going, there's plenty more Borgia history. They could go on for 10 years with Lucrezia alone, or even longer to get to St. Francis Borgia.
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#1184

andromeda1277

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 2:07 AM

Micheletto killed his father..of course he did. But it wasn't until I got to this board that I learned Antonio wasn't his brother. There goes the Dad killed after finding out his sons were lovers theory.

I like Caterina and Cesare, she's a strong woman and hope they contiune their affair it would be nice to see Cesare with a strong girlfriend.
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#1185

Chysalis

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 3:03 AM

I like Caterina and Cesare, she's a strong woman and hope they contiune their affair it would be nice to see Cesare with a strong girlfriend.


I'm pretty sure that possibility flew out of the window, the moment she decided to fuck with him. Or when he gutted her beloved cousin.
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#1186

Princess Aldrea

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:50 AM

I like Caterina and Cesare, she's a strong woman and hope they contiune their affair it would be nice to see Cesare with a strong girlfriend.

Those scenes were very icky to me because I didn't get the feeling it was particularly consensual on Cesare's side. Yeah, she didn't tie him down or anything but she was holding her agreement about coming to Rome over his head. It's not like he's Juan, either, and takes sex wherever he can get it.
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#1187

8matt8

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 12:14 PM

I'm with those who can't get on board with the Cesare/Caterina coupling. I don't sense any type of chemistry between the two of them. It's probably because I know she simply wants Cesare's downfall and is just going through a sexual charade to try and manipulate him. I'm sure there must be a strong and beautiful woman out there who will be a real match for the handsome and brooding cardinal.
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#1188

jenrising

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 1:22 PM

Wait, that guy wasn't Micheletto's brother? But didn't his mother say "Your brother is getting married" or something like that? I'm confused.
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#1189

Princess Aldrea

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 1:27 PM

No, she did not. She used the guy's name. And they're probably not going to reject Lucrezia/Cesare incest and throw on random Micholetto incest.

Edited by Princess Aldrea, May 8, 2012 @ 1:28 PM.

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#1190

attica finch

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 1:35 PM

Well, Rodrigo, you can't really expect the ceiling to stay up when you spend all your days and nights chewing the scenery! (I kid. I love the Irons chompery.)

Gina McKee is 48 years old. My stars.

I will admit to replaying the graveyard tryst in slo-mo to see if we could see what Micheletto was teasing us with in the bathhouse scene (attempting to murder Della Rovere) in S1. And my patience was rewarded.
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#1191

8matt8

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 6:33 PM

I figured out that Augustin(sp?) was not Micheletto's brother because when he had him in a headlock in the graveyard, he stated, this is the grave of "my father" rather than "our father". They could be boyhood friends or the guy might be a ward of the family or something like that. I'm guessing that Micheletto's dad found out about their forbidden love. Even though Micheletto loved his dad he might have felt he had to do away with him. Hopefully we'll get the entire backstory.
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#1192

revelation

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 8:54 PM

Love the show and was enjoying this episode, but I did think Cesare's attack on Giovanni Sforza was a bit too easy. Where are the guards? Surely there would be guards at hand to protect the Lady and her family when they are meeting with a potential enemy in their own home? Then when they finally appeared Cesare could just run through them and shrug them off before riding out of the castle, and then no-one tried to pursue them on horseback. Bit ridiculous. Of course the guards would continue to chase them after they left the castle. It was too simplistic and cartoonish, like a version of Robin Hood.

Also Cesare Borgia never killed Giovanni Sforza in real life at all, he outlived Cesare and Rodrigo. So that is a massive change from history. If they are going to change who lives and who dies, then are they even going to have Cesare and Rodrigo die when they do or change that as well?

It was good to see some backstory for Micheletto. Surprising but interesting.

Edited by revelation, May 8, 2012 @ 8:58 PM.

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#1193

brothertonbanks

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:24 PM

I'm guessing that all the Sforzas are going to be in trouble soon on the show, regardless of the actual history. The next king of France is descended from Valentina Visconti, whose family ruled Milan until the young duke got locked up in the dungeon by another Sforza we saw last season.
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#1194

bluvelvet

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 9:37 PM

I'm pretty sure that possibility flew out of the window, the moment she decided to fuck with him. Or when he gutted her beloved cousin.


Basically, what she said. I agree with the poster who said that the sex wasn't 100% consensual on Cesare's part, but I think if he really didn't want to have sex with Caterina he would have left her room.

Edited by bluvelvet, May 8, 2012 @ 9:43 PM.

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#1195

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 10:23 PM

Also Cesare Borgia never killed Giovanni Sforza in real life at all, he outlived Cesare and Rodrigo. So that is a massive change from history. If they are going to change who lives and who dies, then are they even going to have Cesare and Rodrigo die when they do or change that as well?

Well, he was also about twenty years younger than portrayed in the show, and he and Lucrezia lived in Rome for most of their marriage, and he himself was an illegitimate son, and isn't the character of Alfonso a conflation of two different Alfonsos, neither one of which died in the manner portrayed in the show.

They haven't exactly been shooting for historical accuracy before this death, is what I'm saying. Whether or not they'll do so with the death dates of the actual Borgias... I guess we'll see with Juan?
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#1196

revelation

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 11:24 PM

Well, he was also about twenty years younger than portrayed in the show, and he and Lucrezia lived in Rome for most of their marriage,


True, but playing around with the ages of characters is more acceptable, because aging Lucrezia for example allows her to have adult storylines in the show. Killing someone off, well there is no going back from that. Apart from Bobby Ewing of course!

My point was that before this episode, I sort of took for granted that those characters based on real-life characters who actually outlived the Borgias would not be in danger of being killed. Now it appears anyone can be killed, so I need to make a mental adjustment!

With Juan, you can see the story at the beginning of this season laying the framework for that with his growing animosity to his siblings.

Edited by revelation, May 8, 2012 @ 11:30 PM.

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#1197

Princess Aldrea

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 11:40 PM

I'm glad that Cesare killing Sforza was all about Lucrezia and the fact that Sforza was the one to lead the French to the monastery and Ursula was not mentioned once. Big brother Cesare always loves her best. :)

Edited by Princess Aldrea, May 8, 2012 @ 11:40 PM.

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#1198

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Posted May 9, 2012 @ 8:19 AM

I figured out that Augustin(sp?) was not Micheletto's brother because when he had him in a headlock in the graveyard, he stated, this is the grave of "my father" rather than "our father". They could be boyhood friends or the guy might be a ward of the family or something like that. I'm guessing that Micheletto's dad found out about their forbidden love. Even though Micheletto loved his dad he might have felt he had to do away with him. Hopefully we'll get the entire backstory.

Thank goodness. I was afraid this show was about to go all Game of Thrones on the viewers (re the Lannister brother and sister act). I must say, Micheletto has impressive taste in men. Augustin was one gorgeous specimen, and of course there's still the matter of Micheletto's crush on Cesare which will probably remain unrequited. But sheesh, a cemetery? Surely there must have been an abandoned farmhouse available. Did they actually do it on Micheletto's father's grave?
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#1199

December13

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Posted May 9, 2012 @ 5:58 PM

Also Cesare Borgia never killed Giovanni Sforza in real life at all, he outlived Cesare and Rodrigo. So that is a massive change from history.

Well, we didn't see him dead, we saw him lying on the table all "gutted" out, and Caterina calling for help... so, who knows, maybe the smarmy raping bastard will live.

As for Caterina and her outburst of emotions upon finding Giovanni on his "death bed"... I mean, of course one would be upset when seeing beloved sibling/cousin dying. But considering that she was on really good terms with him and thinking high of him (although he is the class act douche) prior to "don't speak ill of the dead" situation and after seeing her idiot of a son, well, mostly after seeing her son, I actually thought that dear cousin Giovanni is the kids father... They do look alike.

Edited by December13, May 9, 2012 @ 6:15 PM.

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#1200

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 9:47 AM

Man I did not like this week. [snip] The sewing circle riding roughshod over the Cardinals? I know the Cardinals have been brow beaten by Rodrigo, who is awesome, but I dont see a couple of whores and a Bastard girl really dominating them in his absence, regardless of thier connections. I actually liked Lucrezia until she was going to let her kid die, but I can’t stand her now. I want Juan back! I do like how Rodrigo recognizes the city is a crumbling relic of its ancient glory and beginning to restore it to the beautiful place it is today.

And finally - Cesaere easily killing the lord of the manor and escaping. So many problems with that I don’t know where to begin. Ill just say it was not realistic, even for a TV show. They could have at least made him sneak out, but no, he ran past like 50 guards, his gay buddy happened to have a horse there and apparently no one else had horses.

Well hopefully we get back on track next week, overall I have really liked this season.

Edited by TWoP Howard, May 11, 2012 @ 6:19 PM.
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