2262 replies to this topic

[Desafinado]

I can't believe there hasn't been a CB thread before this (or a thread of any ship for that matter!), so I decided to go ahead and start one. I struggled to pick a subtitle. Some other ideas were:

Chuck and Blair: 3 Words, 8 Letters
Chuck and Blair: You Sure?
Chuck and Blair: It Consumes Me

I figured we should have this thread seeing as so many of our discussions lately seem to go back to CB. Now we can just come here instead of clogging up the episode threads, etc.

And since then, he HASN'T done anything to get her back (lying and acting freaky at a wedding doesn't count as a real effort to win a girl back, imo) and is saying trash like: can't you see beyond my smokescreen by now? and that screwing a prostitute counts as work. So yeah, I think he orchestrated the Chair break-up and his subsequent actions as part of a plan, and that's what Blair discovers when she goes to apartment, and that's why she throws the flowers at him and walks out in disgust.

I don't see how this would play out, though. How and why would Chuck have done this? In some ways, it would absolutely negate everything he had said/done to Blair previous to that. I have never had a hard time believing Chuck loved Blair until recently, and I still believe it for the most part, I just want to see more from Chuck. He needs to truly put forth an effort here, and get out of his hooker and drug pity party.

[NotTonight]

From scanning other posts on here, I think everyone wants to see Chuck make an effort to get Blair back. Declare his undying devotion, forsake all others, pledge his love, feel her up during a blackout, make bets that involve sleeping with him, sex her in a limo... you know, the Chuck and Blair glory days.

I'd like to see those things as well, but I'm going to have to admit that I loved Chuck when he's being creepy and molesting everyone with his presence... so, I'm not too annoyed with his recent antics (okay, I love every minute of it). The only problem I have is the lack of his voice during the entire mother storyline. Ultimately for Blair and Chuck, everything will come back to their relationship, but I would just love to see Chuck's POV in things... I need more from his side of things. I guess that's why it's so important that we see him fight for her, we need more of his perspective and his emotions.

Lastly, I love these two together so much. I just do. I'm always rooting for them. I wish the show would just bring back their sexy, snarky edge from the previous seasons.

[pedestrian bob]

Can I place my vote for 'It Consumes Me' as thread title? Because it does, more than is really healthy.

[eyesglow]

I do love the idea of something like, "Because they consume us" as the title. Inevitable works too, though, obviously.

I find it hilarious that we've finally got a CB thread at a time when more people than ever before are hating on them, though. Perfect timing.

Chuck's POV is desperately needed in my opinion, and I do hope we get to see him fight for Blair. I just think that Chuck's method of fighting might not fit into the conventional definition.

[Desafinado]

Ultimately for Blair and Chuck, everything will come back to their relationship, but I would just love to see Chuck's POV in things... I need more from his side of things. I guess that's why it's so important that we see him fight for her, we need more of his perspective and his emotions.

ITA. I think I would feel like the situation was a lot more balanced if we had seen past the "I'm Chuck Bass" of it all. I know that he loves Blair, I just want to see that a bit more. Instead, we've been treated to playboy Chuck, which, while fun, is making this story feel really lopsided.

LOL, pedestrian bob. I think we all are a bit guilty of that. What scares me is that I can feel indifferent and angered based on Chuck's recent actions, but I really do want these two together, and I fear it's going to be a while before that actually happens. I am trying to kill the last bit of irrational hope in me that is wanting a finale reunion. I try to overpower that urge with my "mature and realistic" thoughts that I want them to be apart for a while and grow...hell, who am I kidding? I'd cry like a little girl if we saw them reunited. Damn, I'm easy.

ETA:

I just think that Chuck's method of fighting might not fit into the conventional definition.

That's a good point. It's not that I necessarily expect Chuck to turn into some poetic-waxing romantic, but I think he can fight in a very Chuck Bass way that would still be pleasing. He has his moments (ie the Erickson Beamon necklace, having the man take pictures of Blair, "I'm not Chuck Bass without you," etc) that are actually quite sweet, so we know it's in there somewhere. Right now, it's just hiding under Hooker-Loving Chuck, lol.

Edited by Desafinado, May 1, 2010 @ 8:18 PM.

[tversky]

Desafinado:

I'm hoping dealing with Lily is going to wake Chuck the fuck up. I think he's living DOWN to what he thinks everyone expects from him now that he's royally fucked things up with Blair. I couldn't get over how QUICKLY he turned in 3x18. In the middle of the episode he brushes off that tranny Russian from Brighton Beach , doesn't even look at her twice, and goes directly to Blair. Then at the end of the episode he hooks up with her right in Blair's face (I have to say: I love how Blair reacts to these chicks. Just pure disgust. She's NEVER been threatened by Chuck's randoms. The only female that ever threatened her as far as Chuck is concerned is Vanessa in 2x7. And that's because it looked like Chuck was developing an emotional connection with her. One thing I love about it is that it shows how much Blair really knows Chuck.)

This season the writers played up a couple of facets of his character in relation to Blair:

1) How much Blair's faith in him means (in 3x3). If Chuck seemed like he had changed and grown (becoming the man Blair always thought he could be per 3x17) I think it was strictly due to her faith. At least I think that's Chuck's perspective. It's interesting how quickly his behavior turned the minute Blair broke up with him in 3x18, even telling Nate (when Nate tried to stop him from taking off with the tranny from Brighton Beach) "This is who I am." Before that, he was in denial and clueless but the most self-loathing/self-destructive behavior he was engaging in was drinking and moping around (when Serena and Nate came to see him at the beginning of 3x18). That little speech by Blair at the end of 3x18 apparently made him think "Fuck it all." LOL.

It's actually kind of pathetic how dependent Chuck seems to be on Blair in that regard (and indicates he's not exactly the picture of mental health and stability)

2) How poorly he processes and verbalizes negative feelings. The sad thing is that per Blair (in 3x12), he had changed in that regard from when Bart died the year before. He was stronger. In fact, he was (according to Blair) someone she could lean on (i.e., "you carry me."). But once again, I think his ability to handle negative feelings appears to be wholely dependent on Blair (3x12, 3x14,). Without her he goes back to the crutches he's always used (e.g., drugs, booze, bimbos, etc.).

Given that SS and JS claim to have a longterm plan for Chuck and Blair, I think this storyline will eventually lead to Chuck and Blair working out these individual personal issues so when they eventually DO reunite they'll be alot stronger.

I also think Lily is going to be the person that inspires Chuck to get off his ass and try to win Blair back. I think she's always connected with him and understood him - going all the way back to 2x7. IMO it's because they have somewhat similar personalities (e.g., a little reserved, not very emotionally open - Lily is often accused to being a bit icy). Plus Lily was also a rebellious little hedonist when she was 18. Putting those two factors together, and Chuck seems more like Lily's child than Serena does (at least in terms of disposition.) I guess the point is, Lily seems to be the only person other than Blair that can see behind Chuck's so-called smokescreen. IMO Blair understands this (recall her seeking Lily out in 3x12 to help him.) I think the reason Blair goes to Chuck in 3x20 and encourages him to visit Lily is both because 1) she knows he's afraid of losing Lily and is avoiding dealing with her (per what Blair said in the sneak peek) but also 2) because she thinks Lily can help him. Earlier I noted 2 features of Chuck's character in relation to Blair that the writers have played up this season. Well, the writers have been equally diligent about emphasizing how deeply Blair empathizes with and understands Chuck - at least in the domain of his emotions. I think that sneak peek shows it. She can't be the person he needs right now, so she's pushing him toward someone who can be - Lily.

ETA:
How could I forget "I'm not Chuck Bass without you" from this season's premiere. (The premiere is the best way to get a sense of where the writers are going with the story arcs.) That's OBVIOUSLY what the writers are trying to show with Chuck's latest antics. I mean, sure - this is pre-Victor/Victrola Chuck. But it's not the guy he's grown to be. He's clearly quite losts without her.

Edited by tversky, May 1, 2010 @ 9:12 PM.

[Tingeling]

I add my vote to the "Because they consume us" thread title.


All I have to say about Chuck and Blair together at this point, without having seen the latest episodes, is that I really think they need to get back together during the show's run, and not in the series finale (whenever that will be, but I know some speculate season four will be the last). One of the main reasons I've invested in this couple is that I want to see them in action together, being all they have the potential to be as a couple. Chuck and Blair as a couple, scheming their way to the top, becoming a unit where their only true loyalty is to one another and anybody else can be fair game. I will feel so unbelievably cheated if we get a happy ending for these two but we get it in the last episode, so we never get to see them live up to their potential together. I don't ship these two to get a kiss in the final moments of the show, I ship them to get to see them in action as a couple.

[rue721]

Thanks, Desafinado!

I'm actually not a shipper, but these are my two favorite characters and it hasn't been fun trying to discuss them one at a time, esp. since their storylines have overlapped so completely this season--so thanks for getting a joint thread set up :D

And btw, please throw in my vote for “Chuck and Blair: Consume Me” for the thread title.

I'd like to see those things as well, but I'm going to have to admit that I loved Chuck when he's being creepy and molesting everyone with his presence...

Agreed--I love it when he's an asshole, because it gives a totally different take on the situation. It's no fun when everyone agrees about how to behave, and honestly, I usually like Chuck's off-kilter, irreverent POV best. But lately he's become more and more childish:

1. The Indecent Proposal: he's all about games and communication problems with Blair, a la S2.
2. Dorota's Wedding: he's all slimy charm and grand romantic gestures, a la S1
3. Drunk-Ass Creep: last episode, he was talking about how Jenny should just date-rape people because that's how it's done, and wondering around with hookers and generally acting creepy. Nate was the most important person in his life. All very Pilot.
4. The Sneak Peek: he's acting like a little child, playing "worker bee" with the newspaper, being unwilling to talk, making Lily's illness about him (!), acting spiteful toward Blair, etc. Gross.

That regression seems like it's too temporary to get invested in, and is excruciatingly boring because we've been-there-done-that. I like his POV and I like hearing it, but I'm frustrated that they're taking us on a tour of "Chucks through (his) ages," because it isolates his SL and so we don't get much of his POV on anything happening currently (because he's not actually involved in anything that's currently going on in other characters’ SLs, and is so consumed by his own SL). Plus, I know he's mannered and is this ridiculous persona, etc, so everything is going to be filtered through nine layers of BS, but I'd like to hear more honesty from the character about what's going on even in his SL. I don't mean more psychobabble, I mean just his honest opinions on how things should go down/what has been going down with him. Just a clue! For so long, all we've gotten is what plays on the actor's face (and thank god Ed Westwick is an amazing actor, because without his ability to convey emotion I feel like I would have given up long ago)--I'd like some actual dialogue or action more telling than "Chuck has stopped talking to anybody, really!" "Chuck comforts himself with anonymous sex!" blah blah.

I'm hoping we'll get some sort of catharsis/explanation soon, so he can be his natural asshole (but no longer batsh*t or cruel) self again. And then maybe he can finally explain himself to Blair, because even if she's totally come to terms with the weirdest breakup in history, I'm still thinking: huh?

I also think Lily is going to be the person that inspires Chuck to get off his ass and try to win Blair back.

Honestly, I hope not, because Lily has bigger fish to fry. I mean, screw both Serena and Chuck for making her illness about themselves. While I think it's probably true that Lily doesn't care whether he calls or not (she doesn't even seem to care about talking to her natural born son, so...) Chuck could be a man and make the gesture. Also, for purely practical reasons: she's running your company, boy! You're not going to talk to her about all that? See if maybe you can give her a break from running a multi-national, billion-plus dollar corporation--that UH-OH is actually your responsibility--while she undergoes whatever quack treatment William is giving her? Again, acting like a child! Which is just another reason why Blair couldn't/shouldn't get with him right now, btw. I mean, once your ex (of all people!) is pretty much giving you a line-by-line reading of the children's lit classic on grief, "It's OK to be Sad" (ie, don't worry, sweetheart, you'll always be taken care of) you need to see that reality check for what it is and actually grow up real quick. Jeeez. But I'll withhold some judgment on that until I see the episode.

[CaitieUGA]

One of the main reasons I've invested in this couple is that I want to see them in action together, being all they have the potential to be as a couple.

Isn't that what we got for the vast majority of this season, though? Maybe it didn't live up to shippers' ideas of what B/C would be like together, but we are coming off a season where Chuck and Blair spent the vast majority of it being the most functional couple on the show. And for me, it was stultifyingly dull. S2 Chuck/Blair were also really boring for me, with CB essentially playing out the same scene over and over and over -- the final scene of the finale was the bookend of their Three Words, Eight Letters, And I'm Yours scene in the premiere.

I loved CB in the first half of S1, but I think the writers have taken them in mosly insipid directions since then. I'm pretty much over this pair, and I'm ready for a long break from them, especially if the writers can't find a happy medium between the Chuck who whores out his girlfriend to keep his hotel and messes with his only friends' relationship and the de-balled, pod-person Chuck we saw for most of the season. I'm conflicted because on the one hand I hate what Chuck did to Blair, but on the other hand I am so much more entertained by this Chuck than the lame, forty-something Chuck of S3. If that's what being with Blair does to him, I don't ship it. But I also can't ship this Chuck with Blair because she deserves better. I've seen some people refer to this as character propping for Blair, but I think it's more the problems that the writers have had with Chuck's characterization from the very beginning.

[Tingeling]

As much as I liked seeing Chuck and Blair happy together this season (and I would like seeing more of it) I still feel like they haven't even begun to tap into the stuff I wanted to see, and thought we were going to get to see. If you think about it, they didn't have that many storylines together in season three, usually they had separate things going on (Blair with her ridiculous queen quest, Chuck with his hotel). Which I don't want to complain about per se, I think when you've had two characters whose primary goal has been to get to be together you need to give them other goals independent of one another so that they won't get boring.

But what I wanted to see was the two of them truly joining forces in a storyline and we haven't had much of that, if any at all. I guess you could count their little gambit against Carter Baizen in 303 but have we ever seen them truly team up against someone in any other episode? What's so fun about Blair and Chuck is how ruthlessly they go after what they want, and how they are two intelligent people who like to play mind games with others. Put two such people together and you should have fodder for countless storylines where they set their sights on a common goal and find some entertaining way of achieving it.

I'm conflicted because on the one hand I hate what Chuck did to Blair, but on the other hand I am so much more entertained by this Chuck than the lame, forty-something Chuck of S3. If that's what being with Blair does to him, I don't ship it.

This is pretty much my whole point actually. What I wanted to see as a shipper was Chuck and Blair still being entertaining and wild, only more so since they have banned together. I can't think of a single reason why Chuck couldn't party, plot and scheme while he's in a relationship. Making them act like they were middle-aged was the writers' decision, not a necessary change in the characters.

[tversky]

Isn't that what we got for the vast majority of this season, though? Maybe it didn't live up to shippers' ideas of what B/C would be like together, but we are coming off a season where Chuck and Blair spent the vast majority of it being the most functional couple on the show. And for me, it was stultifyingly dull

Not really. I think Tingeling is talking about Chuck and Blair actively working together as a couple - scheming against OTHER people (instead of one another). There was only one episode (3x3) where that actually happened. Also, in contrast to Nate/Serena and Dan/Vanessa - Chuck and Blair were toned down romantically and sexually in favor of scenes that strictly showed their emotional bond (i.e., they had little pecks, fade to black moments, no real make out scenes, etc. ) The direction, the writing, and the production of DV's college party kiss scene (where the Florence and the Machine music played) and Nate and Serena's sexfests in 3x13 are in direct contrast to any and all CB scenes this season. This isn't a put down of DV and NS. Both couples are at a different point in their development than CB. I just think it was a dumb move on the part of the writers to play down CB's sexuality this season. I suspect one reason they did it was to counter the critique CB are all about sex and nothing more (a charge many leveled at them in Season 2) The one bright spot for CB fans this season was the MANY sweet, supportive scenes they received that reiterated this notion they are IT for one another (e.g. "I'll always be your family", "You carry people, you carry me", "You're becoming a man like your father never was"; "You OK?" "I am now", etc.) So the writers were very clearly sending the message CB are pretty much soulmates/endgame and any other relationship they are in will end up having 3 people in it.

I'm pretty much over this pair, and I'm ready for a long break from them

I'm 100% certain the writers won't do to CB what they did to DS - an entire season of them apart and actually proclaiming their love to other people. JS and SS have made it clear that they are endgame so there is no reason to give them SERIOUS love interests (unlike Dan for example who will end the series either with Vanessa or Serena per Stephanie Savage). In fact, I suspect pretty strongly the writers created this breakup to actually INCREASE CB's screentime and bring some excitement back to them as a pairing. Not as an official couple but as front burner characters that are in love and interacting to some degree every episode. A huge problem with the first half of the season for many people was that CB were largely on the backburner except for a few isolated episodes (e.g., 3x3, 3x6, 3x7 and 3x12). Since the show returned from the break, CB and their relationship has been front burner pretty much nonstrop. Moreover, the ratings are actually up. So I think if you're looking forward to less CB next season, I believe you will be out of luck. I expect there to be quite a bit more than what we got the first half. The CW just released an unsually long promo (2+ minutes) devoted entirely to Chuck and Blair's relationship. Not only has no other pairing on Gossip Girl received that type of treatment, no other pairing on any other CW show has. So Chuck and Blair's story isn't over. Not by a longshot. lol. However, I don't expect them to reunite as a couple for awhile. But to be perfectly honest, I think they may work BETTER that way. The writers don't seem to know how to write them as a functioning couple without changing Chuck's personality or only focusing on Blair's sweet supportive side. I look forward to the push/pull sexual tension and some of the angst (not too much angst - there's been plenty) next season.

ETA:
Another reason I know Chuck/Blair won't get the Dan/Serena treatment was the way Stephanie Savage discussed their respective breakups. When DS had their final break up Savage told Ausiello or maybe Kristin (I believe) that DS would not be getting back together. She didn't mince words. Immediately before 3x17, Savage and Schwartz had a big interview with Kristin where they reiterated that they had a longterm plan for CB, CB are always the show's number one priority with the writers ("they are always at the top of our minds") and even made the (rather dubious IMO) claim that CB were planned from the very start. I rather doubt it but I guess SS didn't want people panicking over the writing for their signature couple for the rest of the season.

Edited by tversky, May 2, 2010 @ 3:32 PM.

[Desafinado]

Isn't that what we got for the vast majority of this season, though?

Not IMO. For me, they were together, yes, but they had been completely neutralized, as if they couldn't still be Chuck and Blair and a couple. I just think the writer's struggled to keep the CB chemistry and have them stable. I don't need angst and drama, and I did appreciate the sweet moments we got this season, but I also missed their sneaky sides. Now, though, they've made them too far to the other end of extremes, and I'm even more unsatisfied. Sigh.

If that's what being with Blair does to him, I don't ship it.

Not sure it was Blair that did it, though. I think about 3.03 particularly when Blair came in to Chuck with breakfast and sexy lingerie and he was all, "Sorry, I can't" business man. I remember thinking, "No way in hell did Chuck Bass just turn down sex because of prepping for a meeting! The Chuck I know and love would find a way to do (literally) both!" The passion had been uncontrollable in S2, and this was just...ugh.

Edited by Desafinado, May 2, 2010 @ 4:42 PM.

[Tingeling]

Yup, tversky and Desafinado pretty much summed up what I was trying to say but not succeeding.

Also, in contrast to Nate/Serena and Dan/Vanessa - Chuck and Blair were toned down romantically and sexually in favor of scenes that strictly showed their emotional bond (i.e., they had little pecks, fade to black moments, no real make out scenes, etc. ) The direction, the writing, and the production of DV's college party kiss scene (where the Florence and the Machine music played) and Nate and Serena's sexfests in 3x13 are in direct contrast to any and all CB scenes this season.

Exactly. While I love any scene that shows the bond between CB the writers haven't managed to balance the couple well this season. The emotional scenes are necessary, but they shouldn't be all we get. I mean, episodes 312, 313 and 314 all had great emotional CB scenes but the storyarc for the couple in those three episodes was basically the same arc done three times in a row. Chuck pulls away from Blair, she proves that she is there for him, we get a touching scene where he opens up to her. Great, but we didn't need to see it three weeks in a row. Once would have been enough. Why not balance that out with a CB scheme? Couldn't they for example have made Blair more wary of Elisabeth and have her snooping around to find out more about her? The way the E. Fish storyline played out had both Chuck and Blair acting wildly out of character and it felt like they missed a lot of great opportunities with that particular sl.

[rue721]

Honestly, this most recent episode nauseated me re: Chair/Chuck.

1. If all it took was a (f*cking) hug to get Chuck together, then how come that couldn’t come from Blair? She was there from the beginning and actually actively tried to help, and she got completely screwed over—whereas Lily appears for like one second and gets the goo-goo sweet treatment? Talk about an asshole. Blair even specifically said she considered herself his family and would always be there for him…but apparently that’s meaningless because he has no real respect and/or love for her? Even though he could apparently have kept himself in check emotionally (like he did with Lily), and just decided that f*cking over and manipulating Blair was ok? Disgusting.

2. How is it OK to orchestrate your girlfriend’s decisions? Whether that results in her saying yes to something she wouldn’t have wanted otherwise (to ho herself out to an evil dude) or something she did want for herself (Columbia), the point is that it’s not Chuck’s place to manipulate Blair and her life. Isn’t this exactly what broke them up? That he couldn’t let her make her own decisions and control her own life/body/circumstances? So it turns out that right while he was making a huge deal about her keeping the Scavenger Hunt stuff from him, and made her agree never to be duplicitous with him again, he’s meanwhile stealing her Social Security number and secretly sending out her college apps? This is the same exact sh*t that broke them up, and it’s supposed to be romantic?

And meanwhile, Blair is getting beat over the head by Nate (of all people!) for her little “I’m in an Ivy!” fantasy? Gross. Honestly, who gives a sh*t about some (sometimes expensive) self-medicating? It doesn’t really mean much, in terms of trustworthiness and respect and the ability to love, if someone likes to fake intimacy with sex and fake happiness with drugs and fake that people respect her/she’s respectable by walking around a pretty college campus. I mean, everyone resorts to fantasy sometime, right? But honestly—being so controlling and so willing to throw Blair under the bus (for no reason, apparently! Not only is he in his right mind enough to totally give it up for Lily, it’s not even like he’s been all about the hotel since he got it back. The Empire apparently going bankrupt, and he’s paid absolutely no attention to it at all)—those things make me think he’s a bad person and that Blair’s better off without him. This all makes it seem that as long as he’s in her life, her life isn’t actually hers--what ELSE has he been orchestrating?! And also, hasn’t she seemed happier and more herself since they’ve broken up? I loved them together, and I’ve always liked Chuck as a character, but after that bullsh*t with Lily and Columbia this week, I’m over them/him.

And the worst part is, it seems as though this episode's revelations are supposed to make him more likable and their love for each other more sincere? Jeeeeez.

[tversky]

I don't get why you're upset that Chuck was sweet to Lily rue721. To me the situation between Chuck/Lily and Chuck/Blair are completely different. The situation between Chuck and Lily is very simple. She's been very kind to him. She's sick. She wants him in her life. So he was nice to her and supportive. Blair doesn't want him in her life. Yes, she's been very kind to him. But even though I think Chuck is 99% at fault for what happened in 3x17, I don't think it's just that Chuck is an asshole that doesn't love or respect his girlfriend. Personally I think alot of his actions stemmed from the fact that he's still angry about Jack and Blair's NYE's hookup. Something she's never regretted, felt remorse or shame over. She's never apologized because she sees nothing wrong with what she did. But it's something that has eaten away at him and when Jack came back into their lives those insecurities and hidden resentments came back to the surface.
Anyway, my point is - I think the dynamics between Chuck and Lily are much easier for Chuck to deal with and so it's just easier for him to show unequivocal sweetness and support. Chuck and Blair is alot more complicated and there's alot of unspoken feelings of hurt, resentment, anger, sadness between the two of them.

I have NO problem with Chuck sending in the application to Columbia for Blair. I think it's completely in character for Chuck to do something like that for someone he loves. He's ALWAYS done unorthodox things to try to help out his loved ones. He's not trying to control or manipulate them. He's trying to HELP them. The bottom line for me is that Blair was THRILLED and GRATEFUL. It would be one thing if he tried a stunt like that to help Nate. Nate would NOT be thrilled or grateful. He'd be angry and he wouldn't see Chuck's good intentions behind it. Blair is totally different. She gets why Chuck did it, because 1) she knows him and 2) it's exactly the kind of thing she would do too.

Anyway, I just don't see what's so horrible about it given all we know about Chuck as a character over the last 3 seasons. He's not a controlling asshole that dominates Blair's life and makes her decisions for her. He's not abusive or controlling. He's a guy that tends to work surreptitiously behind the scenes to help out his loved ones. As long as his loved ones are OK with that (like Blair was in this last episode) I don't see the big deal.

[Desafinado]

Personally I think alot of his actions stemmed from the fact that he's still angry about Jack and Blair's NYE's hookup. Something she's never regretted, felt remorse or shame over. She's never apologized because she sees nothing wrong with what she did. But it's something that has eaten away at him and when Jack came back into their lives those insecurities and hidden resentments came back to the surface.

But where are you getting that from, tversky? Chuck hasn't mentioned that once this whole time, so I think that guessing what his motive is and including this is a little on the fanwanking side. If he had been angered by this and that was the writer's true motive, wouldn't they have thrown a line in about it?

[tversky]

Oh it very MUCH borders on fanwanking Desafinado. I'll admit that. But since the writers have seen fit to completely ignore Chuck's POV the last 4 episodes all I can do is piece something together based on his prior behavior.

In 2x25 Chuck is clearly upset about Jack/Blair. He accuses her of "collusion." She doesn't see the big deal. She was lonely and Jack was there for her. It "just happened." Chuck is so upset that he almost forgoes the chance to have a relationship with her. They never discuss it or deal with it, but about a week later he's back with peonies in hand declaring he loves her. Given what happened later in Season 3 I think he just brushed it aside and assumed he could get past it. He tried to ignore how he felt instead of actually talking with Blair.

In 3x7, it's obvious Chuck is still VERY bothered by Blair and Jack by his overreaction to Blair calling Jack behind his back. At the same time Blair it totally clueless as to the problem. She doesn't understand why he's making such a big deal out of it. So right there I saw a major conflict in their POVs on the situation.

In 3x15 or 3x16 I think it was, there was that weird eery scene where Jack sees Blair again for the first time and Chuck watches them in this creepy way from the bar. Jack grabs her hand and tries to kiss. She pulls back but eventually relents. The whole scene and the way Chuck just kind of stared at her with this freaky resigned look on his face made me think something was up.

Then there was his anger at Blair when he thought she'd actually gone through with sleeping with Jack. (Not to mention his completely unfettered joy when he found out Jack and Blair didn't sleep together.) To me it felt like he was putting her through this very perverse test of her loyalty toward him.

So yeah, the writers have not said "Chuck is still angry and upset about Jack and Blair" but it's the closest thing I can come to a motivation for his behavior in 3x17. And honestly, I think it's just as if not MORE legitimate as people saying Chuck is just a cold blooded asshole that never loved or respected his girlfriend and that's why he whored her out for a hotel. Because at least my fanwank doesn't ignore 3 years of character development, while saying Chuck never loved Blair and is just a soulless ashole DOES ignore past history.

ETA:
I'm 99% convinced CB do not reunite this season and I'm actually really happy about it because I think if Blair takes a risk on trusting Chuck again she'll be doing somethng very similar to what Chuck did last season: Ignoring some pretty HUGE issues. So even though I think she'll want to be with him, and want to take that risk, it'll be a blessing in disguise when the reunion ultimately fails. That leaves Season 4 for them to be rebuilt.

Edited by tversky, May 5, 2010 @ 2:51 PM.

[Desafinado]

It's a good thought, tversky, and you supported it well.

I'm definitely not saying Chuck is just a selfish asshole or that this is just "who he is." I always got bothered by that suggestion, because we've seen some incredibly sweet gestures/moments from Chuck. That's what made this all the more infuriating IMO, because it was sort of this major!huge!reaction! and then no explanation. I still have yet to see the scene I want in the aftermath of all of this. I want to see Chuck and Blair talk...like really talk. I want to hear Chuck's thoughts, reasoning, etc. Instead, we've seen him accept defeat (in his own Chuck Bass way), and then just sort of regress. I don't like it for Chuck's sake, but yeah, I can't help but feel angry at the character. I want to see more of his love for Blair. If it was too soon for him to be that committed or what not, fine, but explore that. If, like you said, it has to do with Jack and Blair's hook-up, then explore that. Just tell us something! anything! or we're all left with just good guesses and head-scratching.

[tversky]

I think we're in a pretty similar boat Desafinado. The only difference is that my pro-Chuck bias makes me more angry at the writers than him. At the same time, I don't totally give him a free pass. I think alot of his behavior the last few episodes was really assy but also in character to a large degree e.g, his self-pitying/self-loathing drinking,drunking, whoring, etc; his running away from dealing with the fallout of the dissolution of his breakup with Blair; his childish assumption he could get her back with the old schemes and games; his half assed attempts to break up Nate and Serena to spread the misery; etc. I'm totally PRO bashing Chuck for stuff like that. LOL. But I don't think he was doing anything horribly manipulative or controlling by sending in her application to Columbia. Nor do I think he lacks respect or love for her. That's where I kind of draw the line because it flies in the face of what we've seen before. However, I understand why some people would feel that way thanks to the shitty writing and the way the writers have ignored Chuck's POV or motivations recently.

Anyway, I have no hope that CB will deal with this stuff this season. Not enough time. I'm hoping they do next season. But the finale may throw a monkey wrench in everything. The CB promo and all the references to tragic endings ("Last Tango in Paris", "An Affair to Remember", "Unbearable Lightness of Being", "Anna Karenina", Vanessa's snarky comment that CB would end in a murder-suicide, etc.) makes me think something pretty bad will happen to them in the finale that changes everything.

[rue721]

I think it's just as if not MORE legitimate as people saying Chuck is just a cold blooded asshole that never loved or respected his girlfriend and that's why he whored her out for a hotel. Because at least my fanwank doesn't ignore 3 years of character development, while saying Chuck never loved Blair and is just a soulless ashole DOES ignore past history.

Hahaha, sorry for my hyperbole, Tversky. I promise to dial down on the use of the word "asshole," I swear :P

I guess my problems with both the Columbia application and the I'm-only-nice-to-people-not-named-Blair things last episode especially bothered me because:

1. Chuck sending the Columbia application is very similar to Vanessa sending Dan's story in to the New Yorker way back when, and ordinarily would just be a wonderful present. BUT he was the one who made a big deal about them not having secrets in their relationship, and their whole relationship completely exploded over the fact that they keep things from one another and that he tries to manipulate the situation/Blair so that things come up how he'd like. So Chuck turning out to have manipulated something else and kept secrets AGAIN just seems like a pretty horrible revelation to me--and all the characters reacting with: ooooh, it's so sweet and nice, just makes me feel like he's getting Mary Sued at best. Also, Blair decided NOT to apply to Columbia--she knew she could apply, and she chose not to for whatever reason...but then he decided that he knew better what she wanted/needed and did it for her. Second-guessing someone's choices about her own life, and then acting on that opinion without consulting them, and then keeping the whole machination a secret--that seems very controlling and disrespectful to me. Just like Blair deciding to give Chuck the hotel with no view of how making decisions about someone else's life is stupid and condescending, Chuck deciding to give Blair Columbia seems condescending and controlling to me--especially in light of the (inter-relationship lying and scheming being outlawed post Scavenger Hunt, and then that decisions being proven smart with the Empire Deal) circumstances. And is much more of a boundary/trustworthiness/respect problem, imo, than anything else Chuck has done post-breakup.

I mean, you're right that applying for Columbia for Blair is in-character--he did the exact same thing last year with getting her voted Prom Queen and lying to her that it was a "game" so she could get with Nate without regret. And that was controlling, condescending and disrespectful, too, imo, regardless of whether he thought he was doing what was "best for Blair" or "best for Chuck"...but I could deal with it, because it seemed that playing a game with Blair's interests in mind was a step forward for him then, just like vowing off secrets and making Blair disavow them, too, seemed like a step forward for him this season. But now we find out that he was making up "secrets and games" rules for Blair without actually following them himself? And even when he had a chance to come clean, he didn't? That only makes him seem horrible to me, as though disrespect and secrets and acting controlling actually were intrinsic to his character instead of learned ways of behaving that he's fighting against. That makes it seem like the sh*t he's pulled lately wasn't a misstep, it was just Chuck being Chuck. All the other characters are sure acting that way, as though as long as Chuck is getting them what they want all his machinations are OK and healthy and nice. Which I'm bewildered and disgusted by.

2. With Lily, that whole interaction just completely turned me off because (I mentioned this in the episode thread, so sorry for being redundant, lol--just don't want you to have to search) it seemed cheap and saccharine and fake to me (not that we were supposed to *read* it as fake--I think we're supposed to think Lily and Chuck were both in earnest there, but that it *felt* fake). On the one hand, we've got these two characters suddenly living their worst nightmares...so they're probably only just able to keep it together, right? Chuck has certainly been acting like he's holding on by a thread, and since Lily has pretty much turned into a shell of her old lively I'm going to say she's just getting by, too. But then they meet in the most uncomfortable and freak-outable circumstances ever--in public, both already hearing all the horrible news, and wearing *formal-wear*--and they manage to find comfort in each other? Since when is that at ALL how it would go down? You know in a situation like that there has got to be the requisite inappropriate and therefore hurtful joke, the one person feeling too emotionally fragile to be touched while the other person feels too emotionally fragile not to be and therefore them engaging in an exceptionally awkward hug/kiss/hand-grasp, at least one of them reacting with inappropriate coldness and at least one of them reacting with inappropriate unleashing of (ugly) emotion--probably both of them doing both such things at different points in the interaction, and at least one of them rushing off in humiliation and fear of total collapse. Because I'm sorry, nobody is so healthy that they can give and receive comfort appropriately when they're that close to the emotional edge.

But since they managed to, in my mind, that means that my reading of the situation must have been off and they AREN'T close to the edge--which makes Chuck's behavior toward Blair callous and cruel on a whole new level then if (as I'd been thinking) he were just seeing things from a very skewed (by psychic self-preservation) perspective. It makes it seem like he's in his right mind and that makes his actions towards her all the worse, in my opinion.

Also, yeah, in some ways Chuck and Lily's relationship is much simpler than Blair and Chuck's--Lily and Chuck have never been as close (for obvious reasons--who can be as close?) as he and Blair have been, she's never seen sides to him that Blair has, etc. But while Blair will never be able to cut herself off from him completely, Lily could--and pretty much has! I mean, once you're hearing about someone's cancer by proxy and months after the fact, you can bet that you guys aren't too bound together, right? So, because he has much less (emotional) power over Lily than Blair, it makes sense that he'd be more circumspect and less apt to test or lash out at Lily than Blair...but because he does have so much more emotional power over Blair, and because he's apparently is more emotionally put-together than I'd have thought (as proved by his interactions with Lily), it makes how he's treated Blair all the more despicable. ESPECIALLY when juxtaposed against how he's treating Lily.

I'm not saying that he's never loved Blair. He certainly knows she loves him, and he certainly believes he loves her. But love's not enough--respect is necessary, trust is necessary. And all this makes me think he can't give her respect or trust (even so far as not to respect and trust Blair's decisions re: her own life)--which makes their love for one another just a painful irrelevancy. Before, I bought that they both struggled to trust and respect one another (and themselves), but that they weren't *intrinsically* secretive and disrespectful/condescending/controlling. Now I'm feeling that Chuck maybe is, and that makes me completely fed up with his character in a way ten million weirdly full baggies of coke and weirdly wholesome prostitutes never would! And makes me think--wow, Blair should run as far and fast from him as she can (whereas before I was actually dismayed that she just left him so easily and without question post-lifestyle/personality-180).

Also, nice fanwank about Jack, Tversky--that was really laid-out, and maybe you're right that it's secretly bugging the sh*t out of him. I mean, it turned out Elizabeth loved Jack enough to ruin herself (and Chuck), even though Jack is a caricature of the worst possible person Chuck could be--it's like all the good parts about Chuck are trash and all the bad parts are the stuff that people love/want. Same with Nate, btw--last episode Chuck was trying to talk to him heart-to-heart and Nate basically blew him off, but as soon as he suggested he could get Nate to a party and out of his head, Nate was suddenly Chuck's best friend again. Also, whereas when Bart was actually around he was always on Chuck's case to be more upstanding and a better person, but when Ghost!Bart showed up he was all about Chuck being a huge bastard. So that little psychodrama has got to come into play when Chuck asks himself, "why does/did Blair love me?" Like, the Jack stuff is what people want, so that's what I'll give them. I guess in Chuck's head this is the way he *should* be acting if he wants to be with people? I dunno, I have trouble thinking he's that crazy, since he's still good to Lily and he's not an idiot...and even if he IS that crazy, how would that make it OK for Blair to tie her wagon to a psycho, pathologically cruel person's star?

[tversky]

You always write such interesting posts rue721. And I hate to say I'm going to get back with you, but I'm going to get back with you about most of what you wrote.

The one thing I would point out is that Chuck's issue with Blair post the Gay Kiss/Scavanger Hunt wasn't secrets per se. It was her using him and being duplicitous in that sense. I found it rather weird and interesting that he basically said "Neither of us are trustworthy" and "We should turn our duplicity on others instead of one another." He never made a Dan Humphrey type "No more secrets!" stand with Blair. He was still A-OK with games and manipulation as long as it wasn't to one another's detriment. So his big hypocritical moment was when he manipulated her in 3x17, not him applying to Columbia on her behalf. The latter wasn't just in character, but something that Blair appreciated in the end. So I see it as unorthodox but something both are OK with. If Blair took issue with it (the way Nate would) than I would find fault with Chuck. Since she didn't, I dont' see the problem.

I swear I WILL come back and answer more of your points because as usual they're very thought provoking.

Edited by tversky, May 5, 2010 @ 4:59 PM.

[Schumiac]

(here is my post in another forum regarding CB and what happened with Jack. It was in response to a poster pointing out the moment Chuck said 'yes', and thus made the game and that it was Chuck's game that ended up hurting Blair so bad.)

The "game" was Jack's and both Chuck and Blair got played. And that game started long before he made the proposition. It started with him messing up with both Chuck & Blair's emotional & mental state with the whole "mother" thing and then stealing Empire. Jack took away the 2 things Chuck had as all his own, his mother & his hotel and was going around claiming how he has now taken everything of Chuck's that was worth having and that was what both Chuck & Blair were focusing on, too. So, it wasn't really a case of "Chuck sold his girlfriend over to a mere hotel", or that "Blair sold herself for a mere hotel". That's not what either one of them were doing. In his assault of Chuck Jack somewhat made that hotel something that equaled 'Chuck'. Jack made Empire look like the prize, and it got Blair & Chuck thinking the stupid hotel was worth more than what it was. and in their desperation to 'save' this hotel they lost sight of the things that were really 'valuable' in their lives, eachother & their relationship - which was what Jack's plan was overall.

That mind set is what got Chuck to agree on the whole thing. He had a chance to win his 'hotel' (himself) back, and what he needed to was let Jack be with his girlfriend for a night. Chuck is very much used to writing sex off as 'meaningless' for himself, so for him the deal did not sound so bad (and I believe Blair & Jack's "past" also worked into this). It was 'just sex' and 'Chuck Bass' is a big bad wolf who'll do anything to win. So he agreed to it, and helped Jack out by buying the dress and that was horrible, yes.

But he didn't make Blair go up there (he couldn't. He can't make a definite choice between himself and Blair. The most he can do -which is what he did- is manipulate things so the outcome is likely to be in his favor, but it is a decision he'll ultimately leave to Blair as he can't go that far). So on one hand he was helping manipulate Blair into choosing him over herself, but on the other hand, he was giving her an 'out' by pretty much letting her know HIS choice was 'her'. I think we tend to forget that he actually told Blair he refused Jack's offer. So, when Blair made the decision to sleep with Jack for the hotel it was her deciding to go behind Chuck to sleep with his pervy uncle for a hotel that he already (as far as she knew) declared 'not worth it'. And THAT is the horrible part and that is the part that IMO really tore Blair apart. Not that Chuck schemed (which was, again, horrible and definately heartbreaking) but that when SHE made her choice to debase herself for a stupid hotel, that wasn't what she knew. What she knew was that her boyfriend has already made a choice, and that choice was that the hotel was not worth it, and yet she couldn't make that choice for herself. She should have had more self-worth. If Chuck has said no to Jack's stupid offer (as far as she knew when she made the decision), she should also have been able to say so, too. But she valued Chuck more than she valued herself, and in her desperation to give him EVERYTHING she sacrificed everything hers.

That is why Blair "agreed" with Chuck that he was right in pointing out SHE made the decision. Chuck isn't the reason Blair thought so little of herself and didn't go "if my boyfriend can let go off the hotel and say no to Jack, I sure do not need to debase myself for it". That is something 'wrong' with Blair, and that's something she needs to fix herself.

What Chuck needs to realize and admit is that 'sex' does matter to him when it is meaningful, and when it is a loved one in question, it is very meaningful. It doesn't make him a 'tough man' to claim and act as if it doesn't. He needs to stop hiding behind the childish 'Chuck Bass' persona so much the moment the going gets tough and find his real footing himself, where he retains his eccantricity, oh yes, but also keeps it 'real' and 'mature'. The 'debaucharous little devil Chuck Bass who feels nothing and can do anything' trick does not really work in "real" life, especially when the stakes are so high. When he tries to do it, he falls flat on his face, losing, not winning what really matters to him. Try he might, he can't lie to himself. And even IF Blair didn't have a break-down over what happened with Jack, I believe HE would. For he made the wrong choice. He shouldn't have wavered. He lost the game on his end of things the moment he said "I'll do anything" to Jack, for that is not a man who is 'dead-set on winning and won't let anything stop him' talking, that is a desperate little child talking. He wasn't proving he had balls to make it when he leapt at Jack's offer and accepted it and helped him, he just rather made himself be a henchman to his evil uncle Jack. And THAT is what Chuck needs to "fix" with himself. Realize that there are, and there should be LIMITS to the things he will do. For having limits is not necessarily a weakness. We have those limits in part to protect those that are dearest to us, and in turn to protect ourselves. His "I'll do anything to win" attitude resulted in Blair getting hurt, which in turn caused him great hurt & loss, precisely because what really mattered was Blair, not the hotel, which was just a hotel. Which is a second issue he needs to get over. He is NOT something that is determined by one silly business endevaour. Who he is is much more than that, and he is only devaluing himself when he think all he has to show for his worth is his 'business success'.

Blair knows Chuck loves her and would do anything for her, and Chuck knows Blair loves him and would do anything for him. They both know the other wouldn't hurt them on purpose. So, when Chuck tells her "I'm sorry, what I did was wrong" Blair knows he means it, that he is really sorry. But an 'apology' doesn't cut it. I think what Blair kind of realized and freaked out on was the "weaknesses" they both had in character that Jack exposed for untill they realize them and try to fix them, they will keep making similar mistakes and similar bad decisions and hurting eachother. So, what Chuck needs to do is show her that he has learned his lesson, which is not that 'I shouldn't manipulate Blair, especially not into deciding to have sex with others' but rather that he can not still try to hide behind the Chuck Bass persona from his childhood. So far, he has been failing at this by acting just like the old 'Chuck Bass'. So, I expect him to do or say something to her in the last 2 episodes to make her be willing to reunite with him again, and I don't think it necessarily has to be an 'apology'. Blair had it. she kind of needs more than it, though.

[Desafinado]

So on one hand he was helping manipulate Blair into choosing him over herself, but on the other hand, he was giving her an 'out' by pretty much letting her know HIS choice was 'her'. I think we tend to forget that he actually told Blair he refused Jack's offer. So, when Blair made the decision to sleep with Jack for the hotel it was her deciding to go behind Chuck to sleep with his pervy uncle for a hotel that he already (as far as she knew) declared 'not worth it'. And THAT is the horrible part and that is the part that IMO really tore Blair apart. Not that Chuck schemed (which was, again, horrible and definately heartbreaking) but that when SHE made her choice to debase herself for a stupid hotel, that wasn't what she knew. What she knew was that her boyfriend has already made a choice, and that choice was that the hotel was not worth it, and yet she couldn't make that choice for herself. She should have had more self-worth. If Chuck has said no to Jack's stupid offer (as far as she knew when she made the decision), she should also have been able to say so, too. But she valued Chuck more than she valued herself, and in her desperation to give him EVERYTHING she sacrificed everything hers.

I don't understand at all how you say Chuck's choice was Blair. I thought it was fairly clear that when he told her he "refused" Jack, that, in actuality, he hadn't. That was an act of manipulation that he knew would appeal to her romantic side (he defended her honor to Jack, when in reality, he didn't). Instead, he set it up so that he could give Jack what he wanted. I also don't buy for a second that Blair did what she did for the Empire. She did it for Chuck. It wasn't "going behind his back," but rather, playing into exactly what he had set up for her to do.

[rue721]

I don't understand at all how you say Chuck's choice was Blair. I thought it was fairly clear that when he told her he "refused" Jack, that, in actuality, he hadn't. That was an act of manipulation that he knew would appeal to her romantic side (he defended her honor to Jack, when in reality, he didn't). Instead, he set it up so that he could give Jack what he wanted. I also don't buy for a second that Blair did what she did for the Empire. She did it for Chuck. It wasn't "going behind his back," but rather, playing into exactly what he had set up for her to do.

Whatever Chuck said to Jack, it was *Blair* who ultimately decided to take the Empire Deal. I say that not to throw her under the bus, but because I find it demeaning to talk about her as though she had no say in what she did with her body. At least as much as Chuck did, she took the gamble that they could get through the prostitution-to-mortal-enemy thing, and it was just as stupid a bet for her to make. Who would think to herself, everything will be OK if I just lie to my closest friend/lover/constant companion indefinitely about this super obvious and emotionally difficult transaction (Jack makes the deal to Chuck, Blair disappears for the night, comes back kind of messed up, and Chuck gets the hotel back next day? Doesn't take a genius to figure out she took the deal, even if Chuck had said no to the proposal initially and she managed to keep her mouth shut, like she was hoping). And when threatening the only truly close and loving relationship you have/your partner have in your lives don't you think you should discuss the threat with him anyway? And seriously, over a HOTEL--symbolic or not? So even though I think it’s ridiculous that the deal would even still be on the table after Jack offered it to Chuck, the truth is it was Blair who had the ultimate power to take him up on it, machinations or no. And she did basically exactly what Chuck did—she made it seem like the deal wasn’t an option, that the hotel wasn’t as important as their relationship, and then went ahead and took the proposal anyway. Her saving grace is that she was offering herself up, rather than offering up a loved one—but otherwise it seems they were offered the same choice and made the same decision? And the only other big difference is that he knew it was actually some sick relationship test and she truly thought it was about the hotel (or did she—didn’t she think it was about his manhood?)?

The one thing I would point out is that Chuck's issue with Blair post the Gay Kiss/Scavanger Hunt wasn't secrets per se. It was her using him and being duplicitous in that sense. I found it rather weird and interesting that he basically said "Neither of us are trustworthy" and "We should turn our duplicity on others instead of one another." He never made a Dan Humphrey type "No more secrets!" stand with Blair. He was still A-OK with games and manipulation as long as it wasn't to one another's detriment.

Yeah, I actually find that whole episode really interesting when it comes to their whole relationship.

--At the beginning Blair thinks everything is pretty much OK because they're talking again and she's apologized, but meanwhile Chuck tells Nate that while Blair and Chuck aren't fighting, he's engaging in "prolonged generalized distrust" of Blair. Whew--that's actually pretty horrible. How prolonged is that? Was he just never going to tell her he didn't trust her, if he hadn't heard about the Jack thing? Did he ever come to trust her again? What makes it kind of extra crazy is that the next time we go in-depth into his POV/he has his own significant storyline, he's seeing Ghost!Bart. Which, I notice he didn't tell her about either. I dunno, I just have the feeling that we saw their relationship get smashed in that episode, but that Blair didn't realize it.

--When he explodes on her totally inappropriately (post-discovering that she's gone to Jack for help), it's what, the second time (?) he's actually yelled at her? I mean, they never yell at each other--that's why when he yelled at her again in 3.17 it was such a big deal that it convinced her to go to Jack. And he flipped out and yelled at her not from the Scavenger Hunt kiss, but after he learned she'd lied to him about going to Jack to help him open Gimlet. He went on and on about how he shouldn't ever have trusted her and all that, and even said that he wasn't freaking out about the kiss, he was freaking out that she'd do something he'd never ever want (go to Jack) to get him what she thought he needed (get the liquor license). And it was in reply to that freak-out that they had their make up/we won't be duplicious with one another conversation. So when they agreed that though they'd have to keep gaming others because they just weren't evolved enough to stop, they'd never again game within their relationship, I thought the point wasn't just that they shouldn't play games/keep secrets that would be a detriment to the other party, it was a general moratorium on gaming each other.

That Liquor License subterfuge was her trying to help him, as was her deal for the Empire (and he pulled the Columbia subterfuge to help her)--yet he flipped that both the Liquor License and Empire Deal were both betrayals...and I guess Blair's still not getting it, if she's 100% OK with the Columbia App. Because the point isn't whether in the end the beneficiary gets what they wanted, and the point isn't even what had to be paid to get it (since that liquor license request actually had no cost), it's actually a respect (and therefore control/trust) issue...it's a betrayal to play somebody, it's disrespectful to be duplicious, and it's controlling/condescending/disrespectful to manipulate other people's lives...plus, it's a total (frightening) loss of control to realize your life/your decisions have been manipulated. I mean, isn't the whole point of playing games to feel you have control over a situation in which you have no real power? That's why I found it interesting to see a woman and man (and both fabulously wealthy at that) so wrapped up in an essentially disenfranchised way of dealing with the world...

The point is, I saw the Columbia issue as a ret-con for Chuck's anti-inter-relationship-games stance, and a regression for Blair in that she's so OK with it. She didn't used to be! Remember S2, pt. 1, when they were earnestly trying to get together (say ILY) but were too terrified of getting played to do it? That culminated in the gallery rooftop sh*tshow, when they realized it was impossible for them to begin a relationship—they actually couldn’t trust each other enough to do it. So immediately, Chuck went to Blair and begged for them to play games with each other, because that would keep them connected. Games and a real relationship may have been mutually exclusive, but both served to maintain Blair and Chuck’s connection—which (until now) neither could bare to do without. And this season, I think Chuck understood he and Blair had really broken up when she came to him post-Empire—I think his misapprehension was that they could still connect via games. At first, Blair seemed to think that they could, too—after all, she participated, and even let him “win” her (temporarily), in the Wedding Gesture. But by forfeiting the Kissing Fatwa, Blair has pulled a plug on that dynamic. Which means she didn’t just end their relationship, she has broke their connection entirely....until now, when she's trying to both have her cake (emotionally intimacy with Chuck) and eat it, too (being the beneficiary of his manipulation(s) ).

Ok, I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense--I've got to use the library's internet and they're closing (ugh). So, get back to you on this tomorrow? lol

Also, when he took Blair's virginity, it was this beautiful, special thing, because he said, "You sure?" and it was so significant that he was different with her. Now, that moment is forever ruined for me. He has taken JENNY'S virginity, and that will forever make me sick to think about.

But hasn't he probably taken a bunch of girls' virginit(ies)? I thought what was nice/interesting about Blair giving it up to him was that she wanted with all her heart to have her first time with someone she loved, and while she *thought* that meant with Nate, it actually meant Chuck. And it *should* have been unimportant to Chuck whether he had sex with Blair or not, but he fell in love with her at Victrola, so it was secretly really significant for him, too--it was the first time he made love as opposed to just having sex...so he was losing a type of virginity, too. I thought it was significant in that they were both truly making love for the first time, (as opposed to just f*cking for him/as opposed to "saving it" for her).

On the other hand, Jenny losing it to Chuck just shows how she feels so completely lost that she's ready to grasp at straws (like f*cking) in order to feel good/wanted/loved. Which is exactly what Chuck has been doing this whole time he and Blair have been broken up, so he and Jenny are pretty much in the same place, and it makes sense to me that they would find comfort in each other...Blair and Chuck's first time was similar to this hook-up in that they were also in the same place emotionally, I guess--but this Jenny/Chuck place is much lonelier and nihilistic and even if it's the first time Jenny's been there, it's old hat to Chuck...so I think the only similarity (that a girl is losing her virginity in both scenarios) is very superficial, and all the important parts of the encounters are totally different.

I guess I don't see love/sex as a zero sum game generally? A meaningless or sad or stupid hookup doesn't make all that person's hookups meaningless or sad or stupid--sex with one person doesn't cheapen sex with another, does it? What does Chuck having sex with Jenny have to do with Chuck and Blair's love? What does Jenny's first time have to do with Blair's first time, even if it's with the same guy? Neither deflowerings are meaningless, but they mean totally different things. And even if Chuck deflowers both, what does that have to do with his feelings for either? They're two different girls in two different circumstances, and the reason Chuck had/has sex with them is totally different for each, and the emotional ramifications are totally different for each. Blair and Chuck sealing their love with sex v. Jenny and Chuck sealing their new-found nihilism with sex have nothing (emotionally) significant in common, imo.

Also, I don't see what Chuck and Blair's sexual escapades (or lack thereof) post-breakup have anything to do with their relationship generally. Blair kissing someone or not (post-breakup) was her choice to make alone, and she made the choice that she believed would make her feel the best according to where she was emotionally. Just like Chuck hooking up with someone or not (post-breakup) was his choice to make alone, and he made the choice(s) he believed would make him feel the best according to where *he* was emotionally. And both of their approaches are valid, imo, because that's a major point of breaking up, right? That suddenly you can just make those choices solely with your own needs in mind? Of course, I think Blair's choices are more likely to make her feel good in the long term and are more indicative of emotional health, but what do I know?

And yeah, the fatwa was ridiculous and stupid and obnoxious--it was also an obvious attempt by Chuck to get Blair to talk to him again, and it worked (at least for a while). He drew her into a game so that they would have some sort of interaction. I doubt it was actually about the kissing, but rather about bringing Blair back into Chuck's orbit. While that's controlling and inappropriate because she has told him specifically to stay out of her life, it wasn't actually about him judging her for her interactions with men, imo, but rather that he couldn't stand to let their connection fall apart completely (he hoped they could still connect via games, even if they couldn't connect based on love). It's not like he was slut-shaming her for a kiss, he was just trying to call her "bluff" that she'd be cool (emotionally) with kissing other guys. He didn't even slut-shame her for prostituting herself to Jack--even that "betrayal" (his word, not mine) was upsetting to him because it meant she'd chosen to be with Jack (his worst enemy). That was like one day after his mother had chosen Jack over him, too, so of course it would be especially significant that Blair would go to the Empire (of all places!) and sleep (in Chuck's old bed!) with Jack (of all people!)..THAT would make Chuck/Blair's intimacy a mockery since it would be pretty much a re-enactment of Chuck and Blair's love-making. When she let slip that she and Jack hadn't slept together, he was super happy and ready to get back together because it turned out she hadn't just made a total mockery of their love by re-enacting it with his nemesis...NOT because he thought she was a total whore and then realized she wasn't. So I think it's unfair to say that Blair should be able to slut-shame Chuck because he does it to her--he's screwed her over in a lot of ways, but *neither* of them has descended to slut-shaming--which I'm really happy about since that is SO beside the point. And I'd hate to see it start now.

But I guess Blair isn't seeing it my way at all, since she's actually so upset about Jenny/Chuck's hook up. :P I just don't see why she would be--it all seems so simplistic and childish to me...ultimatums, freak-outs over virginity, leaving flowers at the ESB (SO bitchy, right? That just makes it seem like he wanted her to get there late and feel totally sad about what she'd lost--ugh). I feel like these characters were more mature than all that two freaking years ago. Why do we have to have such cheapness now?

[JennyLiz]

That Liquor License subterfuge was her trying to help him, as was her deal for the Empire (and he pulled the Columbia subterfuge to help her)--yet he flipped that both the Liquor License and Empire Deal were both betrayals...and I guess Blair's still not getting it, if she's 100% OK with the Columbia App. Because the point isn't whether in the end the beneficiary gets what they wanted, and the point isn't even what had to be paid to get it (since that liquor license request actually had no cost), it's actually a respect (and therefore control/trust) issue...it's a betrayal to play somebody, it's disrespectful to be duplicious, and it's controlling/condescending/disrespectful to manipulate other people's lives...plus, it's a total (frightening) loss of control to realize your life/your decisions have been manipulated.

I'm gonna jump on tversky's fanwanking train right now: the first two instances you mention, where Chuck is upset (the liquor license and the Empire deal) have to do with Jack. You're right when you say it's not about the beneficiary getting what the want, it's about the way you get it. If Blair had managed to get a liquor license in a way that DIDN'T involve Jack, I don't think Chuck would have been nearly as upset. It was when he found out that Jack was involved that he became angry. Along the same lines, if Blair had been able to scheme to get Chuck's hotel back, WITHOUT involving Jack, I don't think Chuck would have cared. Chuck has a weird relationship with Jack; Jack deeply hates him (with a passion that goes way beyond Bart putting Chuck at the helm of Bass Industries upon his death; Jack himself told us that he used to enjoy screwing Chuck's nannies) and Chuck lets himself get drawn into the childish games very easily. If he didn't engage with Jack, Jack wouldn't have nearly as much ammo against him. However, anytime Jack taunts him, Chuck takes the bait. Again, it's a very strange relationship. And I think that having Blair (the one person who is always there for him) mixed up with the Jack drama really pushed Chuck closer to the edge.

[CaitieUGA]

This all makes it seem that as long as he’s in her life, her life isn’t actually hers--what ELSE has he been orchestrating?!

Chuck has always always always been super meddlesome in Blair's affairs. Even when he's doing it in a relatively positive way, it's kind of annoying to watch. Blair's prom was a perfect example. I think the show wanted us to be impressed that Chuck knows Blair so well, but I found that really creepy.

I don't buy the idea that C and B made the same decision in Jack's game. Jack played Chuck and Blair, but Chuck was playing Blair too. Blair was the collateral damage. Her decisions were selfless while Chuck's were incredibly selfish. Ew.

[Desafinado]

Second, on some level, he was testing her, because he hadn't forgiven her for sleeping with Jack before, and wanted to see if she'd do it again. Everything about his reactions in that episode suggested that while he'd set her up, he didn't actually want her to go through with it.

If that's what he was really doing with the Indecent Proposal SL (I disagree, I think he was just desperate to get his hotel back), then that's not fair. How can it be a test when the other person doesn't know she's in it? He sets her up to sleep with Jack and then what? He's mad if she does? Disappointed if she didn't because she then didn't save his hotel? Not a great situation for Blair. It was a total lose-lose either way IMO.

Eh, I disagree that it's as one-sided as you've described it. Aside from the fact that she's rejected him on numerous occasions (twice for Nate, once for Marcus, once for Carter, and probably some more times I can't recall), she slept with his uncle, she tricked him into kissing a guy, and then she went behind his back and totally effed up his club opening by calling in a favor from said uncle. She's told him he's a horrible human being, that Nate is only friends with him out of habit, she even threw his relationship with his dad in his face. Chuck is obviously the colder, more emotionally-damaged of the two, but I think it's somewhat revisionist to act like she hasn't hurt him plenty of times.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Chuck's emotionally abusive, but I in no way think they've hurt each other equally. She didn't reject him for Nate twice IMO. There was cotillion, yes, but after that when she did get back with Nate, Chuck basically pushed her to do it ("It was just a game"). I think after cotillion, Blair would always have made the choice of Chuck if she actually had the option. Chuck was so self-destructive, though, that he wanted to protect her from himself, and made it so she would chose Nate. Marcus? No choice there, either. Blair even gave him a chance and she would've dropped Marcus for him ("Say it and I'm yours") but he couldn't. Carter? No choice. Chuck had rejected her sexual advance when she was super low about Yale ("Take me now"), and then was running after Elle, "the most beautiful woman he had ever seen." She went to Carter for sex, and why not? Chuck has never waited around while he and Blair weren't together. Hell, he's had people in his bed moments after his breakup with Blair this season, so why should she feel any different about Carter? She had told Chuck she was done (elevator, flowers) and then he rejected her (albeit poorly reasoned) sexual attack.

So, no, I don't think they are in any way equal. This man knows how to hurt her, and somehow, she keeps forgiving because he's messed up, etc. This season, though, it's just been silly.

Plus, why would Chuck have such a hard time with Blair sleeping with someone in his family? Next week he may sleep with someone in his family, so hey, no judgment! ;)

ETA:

I like Chuck and Blair together and separate, but seriously, "closing my heart", An Affair to Remember, ultimatum from CHUCK? Seriously, I believe both of them have a lot of issues, and I can even forgive Chuck a bit for the whole hotel thing but with time!

Exactly. This ultimatum was on seriously high levels of delusion.

Edited by Desafinado, May 11, 2010 @ 1:24 PM.

[lemonhead]

To be honest, I don't view C & B as the epic couple. In fact, the only time they ever seemed light hearted and happy was when they were sneaking around with each other behind Nate's back in Season 1.

Every episode since then seems like C is just tolerating B and B is just off in her own little world. Maybe they used to be a great couple in HIGH SCHOOL but its just too melodramatic... even in Gossip Girl world.

Neither of them has anything going on for themselves. I have no idea what Blair wants out of life, what her dreams and goals are. I don't see how that's appealing to any man. She wants to go to Columbia because it's more her 'style' but they don't mention anything about schooling.

Crazy Holland said it best, "It's okay. We all sacrifice our independence for love. At first it seems totally worth it, it's just later after you've given everything up that you realize that you have nothing to offer. That's when your husband starts banging his yoga teacher."

I dislike B/C cuz I feel they have nothing to offer each other. If it wasn't for schemes or drama to keep them together, what do they even talk about?

[glutton]

If that's what he was really doing with the Indecent Proposal SL (I disagree, I think he was just desperate to get his hotel back), then that's not fair. How can it be a test when the other person doesn't know she's in it?

Of course it's not fair, Chuck totally put her in a lose-lose situation- but you can certainly test someone without them knowing about it. My point is just that he probably thought he could go through with it and didn't realize how much it would affect him until it was too late. His behavior in that episode seemed very conflicted to me, and it makes sense given her past with Jack.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Chuck's emotionally abusive, but I in no way think they've hurt each other equally. She didn't reject him for Nate twice IMO. There was cotillion, yes, but after that when she did get back with Nate, Chuck basically pushed her to do it ("It was just a game").

She was already back with Nate when that happened though. After she got rejected by Yale, Chuck did try (albeit clumsily) to help her- starting with the morning he found her with Carter, then at the party where she was attempting her "social eulogy", the meeting with the Sarah Lawrence dean, and culminating in the night he came over and found Nate's jacket in her foyer.

In fact, based on what happened in Seasons 1 and 2, I'm kind of surprised Chuck hasn't had more insecurity issues with her and Nate, given her propensity for choosing him.

[Desafinado]

She was already back with Nate when that happened though. After she got rejected by Yale, Chuck did try (albeit clumsily) to help her- starting with the morning he found her with Carter, then at the party where she was attempting her "social eulogy", the meeting with the Sarah Lawrence dean, and culminating in the night he came over and found Nate's jacket in her foyer.

Eh, I don't know. I get your point about him helping her, but was that really him trying to get her back? I just feel like she's had to be the one to initiate almost every time. Also, it feels like she's always chasing him, and I sort of hate that. It peaked this season with all of her mute girlfriend nonsense. It was too much. I want to see Chuck put a bit more into things. We still haven't seen that since the Indecent Proposal SL IMO, and it boggles the mind. Now is the time for him to really put himself out there for her. Instead, he took a long enough break from hookers, cocaine, and the cast of Cirque de Soliel to offer an ultimatum? Oy. I can't get behind that, no matter how many "trust issues" these two have. If he truly feels like he doesn't trust her to the point of setting up a test in which she has to sleep with his uncle, then they should probably never be together. It's not fair.

Edited by Desafinado, May 11, 2010 @ 2:23 PM.