77 replies to this topic

[raceguy120390]

Yeah, I know it's spelled wrong. Whatever.

There are good seasons, there are bad seasons, there are ugly seasons, and then there's Fiji. But we're here to bitch about Thailand, which falls somewhere in between "bad" and "ugly". Don't get me wrong, there are some good moments, like the fake merge and the final challenge, but for every Jail Break there's a Thai 21 to ruin the mood. Discuss.

[khaavren]

My favourite season ever, with the best winner ever. Once you get past the unpleasantness of the Ghandia-grinding incident, of course.

The challenges (except for Jail Break and the F3 challenge) were not great, admittedly. What I loved is that Burnette showed us exactly what was happening. No surprises, no hidden alliances, it was all out there for the viewer. We got to see all the machinations, all the rationalizations, everything. As someone who, first and foremost, loves the game aspect of Survivor more than anything else, it was fantastic.

I completely understand why it's an unpopular season, though. Not very many likable people (although Jake has an amazing backstory), and not a lot of suspense in each TC. I just enjoy watching Brian pulling strings and maintaining multiple personas for 39 days.

[Hope Estheim]

khaarven
the best winner ever

From what I've seen and heard, not even close.

[Kestrel]

I would probably rank Brian as one of the top five Survivor winners. He was a skeevy person but an excellent strategist. I haven't seen Thailand since it aired, but I remember being very impressed with how he managed to juggle F2 deals with multiple players and still win.

[khaavren]

From what I've seen and heard, not even close.

If you haven't seen that season, it's very hard to judge. Brian was the first person to successfully pull off the "F2 with everybody" maneuvre. He was also dominant in challenges, both tribal and individual.

Chuay Ghan won 10 of the last 11 challenges that Sook Jai could possibly have won, pre- and post-merge. Once they got rid of Ghandia (who was supposed to go earlier, but someone else got sick and had to be sacrificed), they were unstoppable, and that's primarily to Brian's credit. Brian voted for the person being sent home in every TC, and never received a vote. His name was only brought up as a target once, and he quickly snuffed it out. He basically had complete control of the game from about day 3.

When Ghandia was booted, Chuay Gahn was down 5-7, and they ended up being the F5. Brian then selected the F3 partners he knew he could beat, and took them.

He went into the season with a plan and executed it perfectly. He even manipulated events for weeks to make Clay look bad, so he could beat Clay at F2. One trick he used: When the men were sitting around the campfire, and one of them would suggest getting up to go get firewood or water, he'd say, "Let the women do it." Then he would go with Helen to get the firewood or water, while subtly suggesting that Clay and Ted didn't want to. That enabled him to stab Helen in the back and still get her vote.

The only reason Clay got 3 votes at FTC is that he spent all his time post-merge sucking up to Sook Jai to get their votes. He didn't get one vote from his original tribe. Brian exerted exactly as much effort as he needed to ensure the win. He knew he had Helen, Ted, and Jan, so all he needed was one Sook Jai. He spent a lot of time with Jake, the last Sook Jai, and won his vote. While numerically close, the vote really wasn't in doubt at all.

None of this says he is a nice person. But I don't judge survivors based on personality, I judge them according to what they accomplished. Very few people have ever had control of a season the way Brian did.

[Kestrel]

A cogent argument, khaavren. I'm glad to have my assessment of Brian's win justified by evidence far more compelling than my hazy memories of that season.

One question for you: what do you think of the theory that Brian fabricated the story that Clay made a racist comment? From what I remember, Helen was the one who told Ted about it while they were both on the jury, and she said Brian was the one who told her. Clay, of course, vehemently denied it. I was always of two minds. I could believe it of Clay; yet I could also imagine Brian to be amoral and conniving enough to lie about something like that.

[khaavren]

One question for you: what do you think of the theory that Brian fabricated the story that Clay made a racist comment? From what I remember, Helen was the one who told Ted about it while they were both on the jury, and she said Brian was the one who told her. Clay, of course, vehemently denied it. I was always of two minds. I could believe it of Clay; yet I could also imagine Brian to be amoral and conniving enough to lie about something like that.

I find it imminently believable both that Clay said something, and that Brian made sure that Helen knew he had said that, feeling confident that she would pass it on to Ted. It's convoluted (Clay may have said something to Brian, who passes it to Helen, who passes it to Ted, who votes for the man who stabbed him in the back), but, given the way Brian was running everything, quite plausible.

I've watched this season six or seven times, more than any other. While I'd love to see Brian come back, I have the feeling he'd be targeted very early as a huge threat, so I don't mind that he's forgoing the opportunity. I would like to see a return of Jail Break and the Final Three challenge.

Jake could come back, too. And a third try for Shii Ann would be fun. Heck, give Helen another go at it, too.

Maybe they could do an Old School vs New School Survivor, and we could see some folks from the early seasons that are woefully underrepresented.

[sienna gold]

Finally, someone who loves Thailand. I loved this season when it came out. [When i Survivor thon, I do find it a bit "slow" but no more slow than others] and I loved the area. I also agree that Brian was one of the premier winners. He's right up there, and as he said, "I'm the Ice Man." Is he nice. No. Would I friend him on Facebook or something? No. But it doesn't change the fact that he totally knew what he needed to do on Survivor. [and it is always so ... amazing how he literally changed from this nice, sweet guy into.. well. Brian].

He'll never be back, not because of the target on his back, but more because he was asked for ASS and asked for like a crap load of more money [same as Terry for FvF] and Burnett said screw that, and went with other people.

And how you you forget "Raod Trip!"

[I also agree that they need to do old school survivor vs new school survivor. Epicness would ensue].

[Nutjob]

But it doesn't change the fact that he totally knew what he needed to do on Survivor.

This is exactly why I still maintain he's one of the best winners. The guy's a total sleazeball, but was able to make nice and somehow hide his skeeviness to the point where he gained trust and leadership status from his entire tribe.

[sienna gold]

See, and I always have to wonder if Brian was in good graces with the Survivor Honchos, if he, and not Tom would get the whole "greatest Survivor winners ever," tagline Jeff and everyone tosses out. I get that Jeff hates Thailand. [Whatever, Peachy], but Tom, in my mind is not it, only because he was severely lacking in the strategy area. Brian smokes everyone, he had an challenge run, and was instrumental in the tribal wins as well. Crafty stragety as well. Basically, Brian was Tom a whole 5 seasons before Tom comes along yet Brian gets ignored, and Tom gets pimped out.

[I also wonder if Brian gets "ignored" because he's skeevy. Tom, doesn't ooze skeevy as much as Brian does].

[ljenkins782]

Brian is one of my least favorite winners only because of his skeeviness so I can imagine that it gets in the way of his legacy. He really did play an excellent game but he grossed me out so much that it made the whole season unpleasant to watch.

[ByaNose]

I have watched every season of Survivor and I remember Brian and that he won. What I don't remember is exactly why he is considered skeevy? I think I recall that he was nice to everyone to their faces, but his confessionals were really mean spririted. Is that it? I kind of recall that that there wasn't a redeeming person in the whole cast, but I can't remember the specifics.

[khaavren]

Helen was a bright spot.

Brian was very arrogant (in confessionals), and some of the stuff he said in-game was interpreted to be his actual views, even though he said contradictory stuff depending on who he was talking to. For instance, at one point he made a comment to Ted and Clay about how things were falling in line with the sexual roles (hunting, cooking, etc.). That doesn't mean he's sexist, it was part of his scheme to make the men look lazy while he worked hard with Helen, but very few people saw it that way.

[Hope Estheim]

ljenkins782
Brian is one of my least favorite winners only because of his skeeviness so I can imagine that it gets in the way of his legacy. He really did play an excellent game but he grossed me out so much that it made the whole season unpleasant to watch.

Plus, he nearly lost by one vote rather than win by a landslide.

OVERRATED.

[khaavren]

Nobody had won in a landslide at the time. Brian did exactly what he needed to do to win, nothing more. He got his entire alliance plus one Sook Jai. If he had needed two Sook Jai, he would have gone after another vote.

He is the only person to successfully go to FTC after making multiple F2 alliances and win.
He was the first person to win the final IC and win.
He was the first person to use the goat strategy to win.
He dominated in challenges before and after the merge, winning half the individual challenges.
His leadership led Chuay Ghan to dominate the middle and post-merge games.

Clay spent the entire post-one beach/merge period doing nothing but sucking up to Sook Jai for votes, and he still didn't get them all. He was the perfect goat because his own alliance couldn't stand him, due in large part to Brian's machinations throughout the game.

Brian is far from overrated. He's one of the top winners ever, imo.

[ljenkins782]

I have watched every season of Survivor and I remember Brian and that he won. What I don't remember is exactly why he is considered skeevy? I think I recall that he was nice to everyone to their faces, but his confessionals were really mean spririted. Is that it? I kind of recall that that there wasn't a redeeming person in the whole cast, but I can't remember the specifics.

I remember rooting for Jake, but the reason escapes me. I also seem to recall him getting a little beat up on which probably made me root for him harder. But this was my first Survivor season ever and it was a long time ago so I only recall bits and pieces.

My collective memory is that yeah, likeable folks were few and far between on this cast.

Nobody had won in a landslide at the time. Brian did exactly what he needed to do to win, nothing more. He got his entire alliance plus one Sook Jai. If he had needed two Sook Jai, he would have gone after another vote.

He is the only person to successfully go to FTC after making multiple F2 alliances and win.
He was the first person to win the final IC and win.
He was the first person to use the goat strategy to win.
He dominated in challenges before and after the merge, winning half the individual challenges.
His leadership led Chuay Ghan to dominate the middle and post-merge games.

I totally agree that Brian played the game excellently, it was just that his confessionals were so dismissive and arrogant that I wished for the karma stick to hit him (in the form of a blindside.) There are some people who can run the game and still have you rooting for them, but for me, Brian was definitely not one of them.

Plus, I seem to recall him calling himself Mr. Freeze or something equally stupid and making cheesy hand gestures to illustrate how was playing everyone as pawns.

And this is a totally random, Thailand memory, but I remember them getting a chance to see themselves in the mirror. Helen took one look at herself and went "Well, I'm still fat and now I have wrinkles. Great." That totally made me laugh.

[khaavren]

He was quite arrogant in confessionals, but arrogance backed up by something doesn't really bother me. He really was in control of the whole season, as opposed to Russell, whose arrogance is laughable since he wasn't in control of very much.

[amnesia]

I agree that Brian was one of the best winners, although I don't like him personally at all. He played an almost flawless game.

I have often wondered why Brian is rarely mentioned in discussions of the great Survivor players. In addition to his personal creepiness, I think Brian's use of the "goat strategy" didn't play well with fans at the time. I remember mentioning Brian in the old alt.tv.survivor Usenet group, and the general reaction was, "oh well, anybody could have beaten that idiot Clay." The perception was that Brian's win didn't amount to much because of Clay. Now, everyone would be eager to take Clay to F2!

Maybe they could do an Old School vs New School Survivor, and we could see some folks from the early seasons that are woefully underrepresented.

I agree. I thought of this many times during HvV when Colby and Jerri seemed so out of place among the more cutthroat players from recent seasons. I don't think we'll see Brian again, though.

[Hope Estheim]

We won't. Probst and Burnett both despise the guy as much as I do, so it's unlikely they'll EVER call him back for another season.

[sienna gold]

The perception was that Brian's win didn't amount to much because of Clay. Now, everyone would be eager to take Clay to F2!

Which is funny because Clay got 3 votes! It wasn't like Brian swept all the votes.

[I also remember him calling himself "The Ice Man"]

[Shades of Red]

We won't. Probst and Burnett both despise the guy as much as I do, so it's unlikely they'll EVER call him back for another season.

You're absolutely right, although I have no idea why. The most recent evidence was in Probst's rankings of the 19 previous seasons before or during HvV, for EW I think. Thailand was dead last and he had some snark remark like "you won't be seeing anyone from THIS season on HvV."

I guess I'm easily entertained, but I liked Thailand and Brian didn't bother me at all. I was happy he won it. Clay was odious and Shii Ann (that was her first season, right?) made my skin crawl, but other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed the season right up through the end. I think it's unfairly maligned, particularly by TPTB.

[msladybird]

I've got to add my appreciation for this season and Brian as the winner, too.
I've just had my own survivorthon ( I dont live in the States so had to make do with old recordings) and I've watched 19 Seasons in chronological order. I had to skip Samoa as there's only so much Russell bs you can take in.
I think Thailand's right up there and Brian a great winner. His strategy was superb, like others have said, his multiple F2 a novelty, AND he got away with it.
To put this season as the worst ever as Probst did, when you've got Fiji and Cook Islands is a travesty. It was way better than I remembered, 20 Seasons tend to blur, but top 5 IMO.

[whippletheduck]

Brian is both over-rated and under.

He came very, very close to losing the entire game.....both Helen and Ted have said they were very close to voting Clay because of how Brian dealt them. Had either of them flipped, Clay is the winner of Survivor: Thailand.

[Hope Estheim]

That's why I'm always stymied when people say he was so great a winner. To come that close to losing clearly meant he wasn't.

[msladybird]

But he PLAYED the game from the get go, unlike many a winner ( Amber, Vee, anyone up against Russell, etc) Like khavreen says I think he had his finger on the pulse enough that he would have schmoozed another juror if he had to.
Strategically I thought he was great. I want my winners to win bcause of how they played, not just because they're the lesser of two evils.

[sienna gold]

Vee & Sandra had game plans

Hope; I think his biggest mistake was how he treated Helen and Ted. And the thing was I think had Brian took either one of them to the finals, he would have lost. He could have treated both better, but I think that close to the finals they would have been bitter either way.

[Hope Estheim]

msladybird
I want my winners to win bcause of how they played, not just because they're the lesser of two evils.

He did win because of that, though. Why else would he have needed a goat?

[Isuzu]

anyone up against Russell

Sandra had game plans

Natalie had too. She actually had an awesomely effective, if not flashy, gameplan. Also, lots of people seemed to actually vote for her instead of against Russel. Remember she was actually the one to save her whole alliance when she managed to boot Erik. And she was smart (read: a normal human being) to befriend her competitors instead of antagonizing them all. Russel may have made big moves, but he was a very bad player.

Edited by Isuzu, Jul 19, 2010 @ 3:10 AM.

[daisydonut]

This is the first season I can remember watching and really understanding the strategy part of the game. I tend to root for people I like, regardless of how well they play, but in Thailand I could see what was happening much better. Good Survivor lessons, not so good Life lessons.

I did not think Brian was sexist while watching the show, I liked him fine and think he was one of the best winners.

[BananaEtiquette]

I have watched every season of Survivor and I remember Brian and that he won. What I don't remember is exactly why he is considered skeevy?

It was more of his out-of-game behavior that gets him the skeevy reputation. The rumor was that he and his first wife CC met while making porn films together (I think it later turned out it was just Skinemax softcore), and both of them were arrested for domestic violence against each other a couple of times after he won. The worst story was that he shot a puppy with an arrow.