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Season Two Discussion Thread


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#61

leesha79

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Posted Aug 15, 2012 @ 10:49 PM

In fact, Walt murdered her. He shoved her into a position which caused her death, and then did nothing to stop what he'd set into motion.


Murder implies intent. Walt did not go there with the intent to murder anyone, only to talk to Jesse. I don't think him shaking Jesse (which shook Jane and made her fall onto her back) can possibly be taken as intent to do anything but wake him up. It's criminally negligent homicide at worst, not murder. And it would be a tough case to prove criminally negligent homicide since she never would have thrown up or been too deeply unconscious to save herself had she not been injecting heroin.

Season two is all about the unintended consequences of Walt's decision, culminating in the crash. Jane would not have died if Walt hadn't decided to cook meth. Or at least, she wouldn't have died when and where she did. I just rewatched it recently and was surprised by how much Jane grew on me in retrospect and how rich the season is with layers upon layers of foreshadowing and echoes.

#62

JOnanGoopta

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Posted Aug 16, 2012 @ 2:29 PM

The exception to the general rule that one has no legal obligation to act to extricate another from danger is when one put the other person in danger in the first place.

Walt didn't intend to kill Jane, but he put her in danger, and then didn't do anything to neutralize that danger. He knew she was going to die and did nothing.

If he had just wandered onto the scene, he would have had no legal obligation and could have just watched her die. However, by actually putting her in danger by his own action, he created that obligation.

Also, he did know that sleeping on the side prevents this kind of death. He had asked that someone turn Holly on her side earlier in the very same episode.

Agreed that it would be next to impossible to prove without him admitting it.

It's a pretty unusual legal argument but has been made successfully, at least in Australia.

where a defendant has placed a person in danger as a result of a wrongful act they have committed in such a situation they are arguably under a duty not to leave the person in danger. In R v Taber (2002) 56 NSWLR 443 the defendants assaulted, bound and gagged the victim (an elderly woman living alone) and left her in her house to die. Despite having made a phone call to emergency services (which was treated as a hoax) they made no further effort to ensure their victim was given assistance, with the result that she died of dehydration some nine to eleven days after they left her. It was open to the jury to find the defendants guilty of murder by omission and they did. However, these convictions were later overturned on appeal and at a re-trial they were found guilty of the alternative charge of manslaughter.


We share the same common law background.

I think manslaughter, like in this case, is probably more likely a conviction. That or he'd get away with it completely, since he'd be unlikely to admit to his actual state of mind at the time, and Mike took care of all the physical evidence.

#63

leesha79

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Posted Aug 16, 2012 @ 4:49 PM

I'm picking up what you're putting down there JOnanGoopta, but something in me still rebels at the thought of classifying what happened with Walter and Jane as murder. He didn't do it intentionally, and God knows she could have accidentally done it herself, heroin addicts die everyday just the way she did all on their own. I know many posters new to this show read this thread so I'm not going to "spoil" later seasons, but suffice it to say there's plenty of murders to hang on Walter's head, I just don't classify this incident as one. Depraved indifference? Absolutely. Jane's death is a turning point in the show, for Walter and Jesse, for very different reasons. Also, it gave us Mike :)

#64

Unspoiled

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Posted Aug 20, 2012 @ 2:36 PM

Occasionally I read complaints about this Season 2 plane crash. But I rather liked it. I so got sucked into wondering what the devil was going on when I saw that floating charred teddy bear. And I loved that those shots were in black and white except for that shocking pink bear. I loved that, in the end, Walt's silly sweater matched it. I did see these episodes for the first time on DVD--perhaps I was more inclined to be pleased because I didn't have to puzzle over it week after week, the way these episodes were meant to be seen.

How did Walt see all this, is what I took away from it. And later I see that he tends to keep this toy's eyeball in the places where he lives. Neat. Maybe it's a symbol of clear-eyed culpability. Or maybe, because it's just a plastic thing--an eye without a face!--it points to Walt's special brand of blindness. So anyway, I'm okay with the plane crash, and I loved Season 2 all around.

#65

Amath

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Posted Aug 23, 2012 @ 8:22 PM

Murder implies intent. Walt did not go there with the intent to murder anyone, only to talk to Jesse. I don't think him shaking Jesse (which shook Jane and made her fall onto her back) can possibly be taken as intent to do anything but wake him up. It's criminally negligent homicide at worst, not murder. And it would be a tough case to prove criminally negligent homicide since she never would have thrown up or been too deeply unconscious to save herself had she not been injecting heroin.


If you want to get technical like that, you could make a case that it was felony murder--Walt was arguably burglarizing Jesse's place, and any death occurring in the course of a burglary, even if unintentional, is murder. I agree with you that this was not a cold-blooded, mens-rea-having murder. But I also agree with JOnan's point that this was clearly more reprehensible than just "oops this girl happened to start dying while I was here and it would have happened anyway."

Like many others, I came the show late and watched season 2 on Netflix over the course of a week or so. I am not a fan of the plane crash plot element (or maybe just the way it was so heavily foreshadowed and got heavy play after the event as well). I thought it was kind of a cheap trick. Rewatching the season from the beginning now, I think I feel the same way, even knowing that it's coming.

#66

Unspoiled

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Posted Aug 24, 2012 @ 3:35 PM

Amath, you're not alone, I've read lots of negative opinions of the plane crash plot element! You put it very well. It's true it was far from subtle, but I got into it.

#67

neplusultra

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Posted Nov 27, 2012 @ 12:39 PM

I wouldn't call it murder exactly, but Jane did take precautions not to die that way, and Walt negated those precautions by accidentally knocking her onto her back, then coldly overruled his own initial instinct to help her once she started choking. That was it for me--I really loved Jane and could never forgive Walt for that.