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#10861

AtlanticVamp

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 2:23 PM

From early on, I disliked Kyle, can you tell?


You're not alone. I came to RHOBH really believing that I would like Kyle, given her appearance in the previews and supertrailer. She seemed like the most level-headed and "normal" of the group, just from those early scenes. By contrast, Kim looked constantly frazzled.

But, as the season played out, Kyle began lording it over Kim, "LOOK what I'VE done for YOU!" and butting in with Kim's kids. That's where Kyle lost me, and I even tried to make excuses about her being an aunt who was just giving advice. However, by the reunion, it was obvious that Kyle really was of the opinion that the viewing audience saw her as her sister's keeper. For me, it was offensive, as Kim is a grown woman, and it just seemed like a reverse "Baby Jane" situation. It's somewhat appropriate, however, given both sisters were child actors.
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#10862

EmeraldRose

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 2:31 PM

In every HW version, Bravo gives us at least one to scavenge for their lies and deceit. They have a whole staff that could (most likely does) take the time to google just like we do.

That's the fun of watching these shows. The participants honestly believe WE believe. Bravo knows we won't.
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#10863

tortfeasor521

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 4:34 PM

I guess I don't see where the abuse allegations from Taylor are so unbelievable. I mean, in the last two months, Russell himself admitted to slapping and pulling hair to People Magazine or some other outlet like that. If that's what he's willing to ADMIT to on his own accord, which I've frankly never seen an abuser do (they usually deny, deny, deny unless a judge or jury is holding them up), then I could easily see him doing much more behind closed doors. And given that he has a history of domestic violence with previous wives, why is it so hard to believe with Taylor?

I'm no Taylor fan, believe me. (I can't believe how many times I've read that this week-- no one admits to being a Taylor fan! That's the one funny thing from this.) And maybe she's lying about the extent of it, but I really don't find it hard to believe that Russell abused her to a serious degree, whether just recently or over the course of their marriage.

And why is the participation of Russell in the RHoBH ALL Taylor's fault? Russell couldn't be forced to film against his will. Yes, Taylor is a lying liar who lies, but Russell also knew their financial situation was precarious and a house of cards. Why is he getting a total reprieve for participation on the show? I don't mean to sound like a bitch since the guy killed himself (and I truly feel that's horrible, though I feel most for Kennedy and his other children) but just because Taylor's the surviving spouse doesn't mean everything she and Russell BOTH did was any less his fault or any more her fault.

Russell's family would do well to avoid filing any lawsuits. If they think too much was exposed by Bravo on the show, they have no clue how much would be exposed by their high-priced attorneys during a court fight. That is, if it even makes it to court. That potential case has "summary judgment" in favor of Bravo written all over it.

I'm in no way saying that Taylor is a sweet innocent in all this, but I'm not going to believe Russell is one either just because he died tragically or just because I don't really like Taylor.
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#10864

Beth2

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 4:54 PM

tortfeasor521, I agree.
Taylor is no saint and seems to be a grifter from way back, but so did Russell. It appears they were a perfect match when they hooked up and participated in scamming people together. Russell also has a long history of abusing women and his child for which he was sentenced to both AA and anger management as well as restraining orders. We saw him drinking on the show, so clearly the AA didn't take. As his whole house of cards began to crumble and it was about to be public knowledge not just around town but to the whole Bravo viewing audience that he was a fraud, I can believe that he became violent again if he hadn't been all along. At the same time I can see Taylor putting up with violence if she thought it was a means to an end but refusing to tolerate it in the extreme or for a broke washed-up angry man.
I keep going back to what Lisa said about Taylor, namely that she wanted the lifestyle more than she wanted to be happy. I think that was a lot of it. She was determined to make it into LA society and if that meant that she put up with his abuse to do it, she would have. It's not a bargain I would make but she might.
I didn't see him taking responsibility in the People article though. He admitted that he pushed her but seemed to be blaming the show for it. Stress might exacerbate someone's tendency towards violence but it doesn't create it. Since he was violent before he was ever on the show, I'm not buying his version of events.
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#10865

AuntiePam

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 4:56 PM

Taylor may well have been abused by Russell at some point in their marriage, but no way in hell would a woman in the middle of a divorce NOT raise holy hell if her soon-to-be-ex caused injuries as serious as what's been claimed. Who started those rumors? Taylor or someone else? I'm losing track of all the allegations and where they're coming from.

That said, I can't imagine Taylor playing touch football either. The woman is a stick.
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#10866

Lisette

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 4:56 PM

I guess I don't see where the abuse allegations from Taylor are so unbelievable.

For me, it isn't so much that they aren't believable, it's that they came out--on the DAY of his suicide (and I believe, from Taylor)--when Russell was no longer able to speak on his own behalf.

And I don't believe all the broken facial bones--at this point--because where's a police report? Where's a doctor's verification (with Taylor's permission--you know she'd give it)? Why no restraining order? Why give this abuser joint custody of Kennedy?

There are lots of questions--plus Taylor's past lies and generally unpleasant, manipulative personality (see posts about her with Lisa and Kyle and Kim and Camille above--perfect descriptions of her character as I saw it, too)--that make me want more than just her word for it.
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#10867

drlaw

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 4:59 PM

That said, I can't imagine Taylor playing touch football either. The woman is a stick.


This football story bothers me also. What 40 y.o. woman plays football? Not buyin' it.
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#10868

tortfeasor521

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 5:08 PM

For me, it isn't so much that they aren't believable, it's that they came out--on the DAY of his suicide (and I believe, from Taylor)--when Russell was no longer able to speak on his own behalf.


What exactly came out that day? (I'm genuinely asking because so much has happened with them in the last couple of months that I can't really keep it all straight.) We subscribe to People Magazine, and I know there was an article well before Russell died that clearly talked about abuse. Was it just the hospitalization part that didn't come out until his death?

I didn't see him taking responsibility in the People article though. He admitted that he pushed her but seemed to be blaming the show for it. Stress might exacerbate someone's tendency towards violence but it doesn't create it. Since he was violent before he was ever on the show, I'm not buying his version of events.


Oh no, I totally agree. I was surprised that he admitted to any kind of abuse at all, but no, there was definitely not any responsibility-taking on his part.
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#10869

changfumom

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 5:29 PM

Russell never did very well with the ladies and he wasn't a real natural with kids, either.

He shot his sister when he was only six. ( I know - it sounds like a Johnny Cash song.) His father kept loaded guns in the house. His sister was in the hospital and was unable to walk for a year. Russell couldn't forgive his father for many years and was "haunted" by this "accident".

The next recorded example of extreme Armstrong Anger was punching pregnant wife Barbara in the eye. He also kicked her to the ground and spat on her. That was 1997. Russell pled guilty to battery and had to attend anger management classes.

They didn't take because in 2004, during a weekend visit from his seven year old son Aiden, Russell's girlfriend called Barbara to say Russell had slapped the child across the face very hard, and it wasn't the first time. The ex-Mrs. Armstrong got a restraining order and subsequent court supervised visits. Soon after, Girlfriend filed and got a restraining order against Armstrong, stating he slapped her so hard her neck snapped.

When asked to comment about his past record, Russell denied that any of it had ever happened.

The PR piles of bullshit are getting too high for me. Taylor is milking her possibly pretend abuse story? Maybe he didn't hit her and they're one of those folie a deux couples. I don't care. But he'd abused enough woman and children to be a danger to Kennedy. So thank you Russell for solving part of that problem. And i don't buy that Bravo ( or Taylor) caused this man to go over the edge. I'm NO FAN OF TAYLOR'S and I always walk a little bit smaller in my family's eyes when I watch "my stories" on Bravo. But this guy was traveling on the dark side for a long, long time; long before he met Miss Shana Katy Ford Scarlett O'Hara or Andy Cohen. It was a matter of when, not if.

However: Russell and his demons + Taylor + Real Housewives was one of those " perfect storm" situations? I don't know. Thank you God, he didn't take anyone with him.
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#10870

fashionista79

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 5:37 PM

For me, it isn't so much that they aren't believable, it's that they came out--on the DAY of his suicide (and I believe, from Taylor)--when Russell was no longer able to speak on his own behalf.

That's not true.

Taylor Armstrong: My Marriage Was Abusive was posted on July 28 on people.com.
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#10871

PaganChick

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 5:53 PM

He shot his sister when he was only six. ( I know - it sounds like a Johnny Cash song.) His father kept loaded guns in the house. His sister was in the hospital and was unable to walk for a year. Russell couldn't forgive his father for many years and was "haunted" by this "accident".


I'm confused. He was six. How could this have been anything but an accident? Am I missing something?
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#10872

Evs

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 5:54 PM

Given Russell's past, I do think that he may have gotten physical with Taylor, but the People article never said that he hit her. He may have, but I have to admit that my first thought when I read about the broken cheekbone incident was that she had really had more plastic surgery and wasn't fully healed in time for filming and the abuse story was a cover-up and a way to get more sympathy. I may be completely wrong. Maybe his violent behavior escalated recently.

Either way, I think the fact that Russell had, at minimum, anger and drinking issues makes Taylor's treatment of Kim even worse. She acted as though Kim was trash because she may have a drinking problem, yet her husband was court ordered to attend AA. She was aggressive and a bully to Kim, even though she knows what it is like to be treated that way. From the first time they met, she acted like she was better than Kim when Kim, even with whatever issues she has, is probably a much better person than Taylor will ever be.
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#10873

Lisette

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 5:59 PM

Fashionista79:
That's not true.Taylor Armstrong: My Marriage Was Abusive was posted on July 28 on people.com.


From People Mag:
Russell would curse and call her names. At times, the arguments escalated into physical violence, which included grabbing her, throwing objects, shoving her and pulling her hair.

This is what she said in the People mag article. (Russell admitted shoving, denied pulling her hair).

I think that's a far cry from what was said the day his death was announced--that her eye socket, jaw and cheekbone were broken (yet no police report was ever filed, and no restraining order).

And, again, even if -either- of these are true, why would she allow unsupervised joint custody?

Russell may have been every bit as bad as she said, but it doesn't make me think well of Taylor, who lies, craves attention, and apparently is not very concerned with the well-being and safety of her 5 year old daughter.

Edited by Lisette, Aug 21, 2011 @ 6:05 PM.

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#10874

EmeraldRose

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 6:12 PM

From People Mag:
Russell would curse and call her names. At times, the arguments escalated into physical violence, which included grabbing her, throwing objects, shoving her and pulling her hair.


Takes 2 to tangle (tango?).

I don't believe Taylor stood passively by as this "escalated". I'm not convinced she didn't do as much abusing.

Abuse from either party is not acceptable.
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#10875

changfumom

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 7:07 PM

I don't know, fashionista79, I don't know why I put quotes there.
Yes, I do. Because everything about this man seems rotten and I'm alarmed by attempts to paint him as an poor, widdle lost soul. And six year olds have been known to shoot other children. But who am I to judge? Anyway, the story I read was that Russell was overwhelmed by guilt for the shooting and was very angry at his dad.

Sorry to sound so judgmental and cruel. This has just become a Grand Guignol and no one looks pretty. And, proving my Dad's adage that " Flies are drawn to shit.", who shows up now? Micheala I- refuse-to-learn-how-to-spell-your-name Salahi. Have we heard her tale of childhood abuse yet?

Edited by changfumom, Aug 21, 2011 @ 7:13 PM.

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#10876

EmeraldRose

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 7:08 PM

It's documented Taylor made abusive, physical threats to Kim.
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#10877

tortfeasor521

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 7:10 PM

Thanks for the timeline Tafatia. If the stories about Taylor's hospitalization didn't come out until 3-4 days after his death, I'm not really surprised or all that upset about it. You know the media and "well-wishers" were bugging the crap out of everyone known or employed by Russell. Maybe Taylor or her people released the info, but it could have been nosy people weaseling their way into the info for their own piece of the pie. I don't know, probably no one other than the oh-so-ethical Harvey Levin knows where it came from.

Again, I'm not defending Taylor or implying that she's not a bad person, but I'm not a huge fan of assumptions either. Law school beat that into me way too hard over the head.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Aug 21, 2011 @ 9:30 PM.
Save the smilies for texts, please.

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#10878

Sooner Charmed

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 7:14 PM

Either way, I think the fact that Russell had, at minimum, anger and drinking issues makes Taylor's treatment of Kim even worse. She acted as though Kim was trash because she may have a drinking problem, yet her husband was court ordered to attend AA. She was aggressive and a bully to Kim, even though she knows what it is like to be treated that way. From the first time they met, she acted like she was better than Kim when Kim, even with whatever issues she has, is probably a much better person than Taylor will ever be.


Evs, I could not agree with you more. It is completely unforgivable to me that Taylor was so merciless with Kim when it appears that she had an alcoholic abuser at home with her child. I guess it is true that we tend to hate others that exhibit evidence of the things we hate about ourselves.
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#10879

Dixiegirlz

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 7:56 PM

The entire Ho-wives franchise is something akin to Roman Gladiator Games... the arena is our tv sets. Shame on Bravo for instigating the extremes that lead to this type of human tragedy. It's disgusting how they play people.
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#10880

Evs

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:06 PM

Evs, I could not agree with you more. It is completely unforgivable to me that Taylor was so merciless with Kim when it appears that she had an alcoholic abuser at home with her child. I guess it is true that we tend to hate others that exhibit evidence of the things we hate about ourselves.


Thanks, Charmed.

I think this is an interesting observation about Taylor's treatment of Kim. I was thinking that maybe she was lashing out at Kim because she couldn't lash out at Russell. Whatever the reason, ITA it was unforgivable.

†The entire Ho-wives franchise is something akin to Roman Gladiator Games... the arena is our tv sets. Shame on Bravo for instigating the extremes that lead to this type of human tragedy. It's disgusting how they play people.


I agree. This is my first Housewives series and it was nothing like I expected. I had no idea it would be so brutal. Even before the suicide, I found some of the episodes very disturbing. I would not watch another series and I am not sure how long I will continue watching this one.
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#10881

Tafatia

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:06 PM

My two cents on the veracity of the abuse allegations is that both Taylor and Russell admit to pushing, so something happened of a physical nature. I can totally believe that the reports of severe physical abuse are not fully accurate and/or sensationalized but if I were Taylor and her reps, I would not discuss the matter futher or go into any more details than she already has and if the Enquirer, TMZ and other media want to dig further then they can have at it. To me there is more than enough out there in terms of Russell unraveling and a cray cray environment was created as a result of it in his last months, and that for whatever reason has captured my prurient interests. I am more interested in the emails and letters that he was writing, why and how he increased his involvement in the show, why Taylor did not go to Hawaii and other things. To my eyes Russell may have gotten obsessive, this is a guy who was working eighty hours a week and was a sporadic presence at HW events, which I did not have a problem with and thought that it was silly of Taylor and others to make it into an issue, to being fused at Taylor's side on the red carpet in the last few months of their marriage; it also seems to me like he may have tried to isolate her. IMO this is starting to shape up to be the standard Lifetime MOTW woman in peril situation but in this case the heroine is less than sympathetic.

Edited by Tafatia, Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:15 PM.

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#10882

Lisette

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:13 PM

I don't believe Taylor stood passively by as this "escalated". I'm not convinced she didn't do as much abusing.

I admit that I have no proof of this, and I don't want to malign her (or Russell) unfairly, but I'm not convinced either.

Why? Because she's the one whom I saw have a very aggressive, bullying personality (and the threat to go into the alley and "go all Oklahoma on you" while I didn't take it seriously, I -do- think it was intended to intimidate with a physical threat. And...she never, ever apologized to Kim for it. Quite the contrary.)

Taylor was aggressive in personality and a bully. And I never saw her show a shred of empathy to anyone--Kennedy, Russell, Snowball, Kim (who's unhappiness she seemed to revel in and encourage). She shit-stirred with Camille to stir up trouble with Kyle (and ingratiate herself with Kyle in the process--then did the same with Kim and Kyle and Lisa and Kyle).

She and Kyle were obnoxious to Lisa at luncheon and at the "jelly" reunion. If I were Lisa, I would never consider Kyle a good friend after that and I would have no use for Taylor at all.

She's sneaky, imo, and a bully. I guess its hard for me to also picture her as a victim of Russell who seemed so milquetoast (not that he COULDN'T be an abuser, of course, I just don't feel it all adds up -exactly- as she claims, so far. Plus...she lies. So..imo,...the jury still is out. I'm not willing to just "believe her" as I find her neither sympathetic nor honest.)
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#10883

Gibbsy88

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:28 PM

Thank you God, he didn't take anyone with him.


Yes. How long until some off-the-rails reality "star" gets taken out by an equally off-the-rails family member? Maybe, though, just maybe, the producers will take their jobs more seriously and do more rigorous background checks on people before putting them on this kind of stage.
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#10884

Sooner Charmed

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:30 PM

Because she's the one whom I saw have a very aggressive, bullying personality (and the threat to go into the alley and "go all Oklahoma on you" while I didn't take it seriously, I -do- think it was intended to intimidate with a physical threat. And...she never, ever apologized to Kim for it. Quite the contrary.)


You are right on, Lisette. Considering the charity she was shilling for in the first season, it would have gone a long way in the hearts and minds of viewers if she had just simply said, "I am sorry for making that comment. It wasn't appropriate, and I don't encourage violence of any kind." Instead, she turned to Andy Cohen, batted her eyes, and asked if he thought she could really hurt a fly, basically. Yes, Taylor, because THAT is the point, not that intimidation is a form of bullying and abuse. She was picking on someone who simply lacked the ability to defend herself in any way. Kim stated over and over that she cannot handle confrontation, and she is basically rendered speechless by it. It is evidenced all through the season, and Taylor used that to go in for the metaphorical kill over and over again.
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#10885

zenme

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 8:33 PM

I agree with some of the posters' idea that Taylor is a bully. I felt for Kim when Taylor bullied her. It was clear to the viewer that Kim was fragile, and Taylor used that and didn't help matters between the sisters. IMHO she attempted to rough with Lisa at the lunch but Lisa wasn't having it. I imagine Taylor gave as much as she got--not that it's right in any case...
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#10886

TWoP Howard

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Posted Aug 21, 2011 @ 9:34 PM

Since the conversation here has devolved into a circular argument about who was abusing whom, Iím closing the thread until the new episodes air.

#10887

TWoP Howard

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Posted Sep 5, 2011 @ 12:57 PM

Before the 2012 season starts: I'm going to loosen up the rules about what's on topic and see how it goes. So if you want to post outside links or real-time information, that's fine, but please keep in mind that if the discussion of real-time events takes over the thread, they'll become off-topic. In other words, use the real-time info to add to the show discussion, rather than focusing entirely on gossip, because this is a TV site, not a gossip site. I also don't want to see outside information used to discredit someone else's opinion about the show. If people choose not to read outside or real-time info, and only want to watch and discuss the show, that's their prerogative, and it needs to be respected. So with that in mind, an updated list of rules:
  • This thread isn’t a court of law or a debate, and we’re not here to determine "the truth" about any conflicts between people on the show, or to assign blame when things go wrong. It's also not the place to get set up a competition for Worst Housewife or Worst Mother/Spouse or any of that. This is a place to have a conversation, not to campaign for your candidate for Most Miserable Excuse for a Human Being. If you find yourself writing something like, "Well, but Housewife A has never been mean to her kids the way Housewife B has," delete it, because I hate that kind of nonsense.
  • No nicknames. Also, please keep in mind that words like "bitch," "slut," and "whore" have specific meanings, and aren’t collective nouns for women we dislike. A better choice would be to discuss and label someone’s behavior, rather than labeling the person herself. Please keep in mind that the site is here so that we can snark on TV shows, not foam at the mouth about them. Vitriol is not the same as wit.
  • Read the site rules, which you can find in the Dos and Don'ts and the FAQ, and then reread the boards on boards rule, and then make sure your posts follow it. If you are posting here, you are expected to do your fellow posters the respect of posting your opinions about the show. Please keep your opinions of other posters here to yourself. Please keep your opinions about what the thread should be discussing or saying to yourself.
  • Make your point once or twice and then move on. Yes, people are probably going to come after you and disagree with what you said, but that doesn't give you a pass to rehash what you already said, even if you can think of new "evidence" to support your opinion. You had your say, so find something else to weigh in on.
  • If you believe that another poster is breaking a rule, your choices are to ignore it, or ignore it and report it. Any other kind of response is boards on boards, and is just as much of a disruption to the thread as the original post was.
Thanks.

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 1, 2013 @ 7:10 PM.


#10888

IMOutrippin

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Posted Sep 5, 2011 @ 1:05 PM

I can't believe they're still airing the episode tonight!
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#10889

TWoP Howard

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Posted Sep 5, 2011 @ 1:06 PM

Back open, with new rules. Please read the Dos and Doníts and the FAQ and the pinned post before you post. Those are the rules you will be held accountable to. Thanks.

#10890

MrsSea

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Posted Sep 5, 2011 @ 1:30 PM

I agree with some of the posters' idea that Taylor is a bully. I felt for Kim when Taylor bullied her. It was clear to the viewer that Kim was fragile, and Taylor used that and didn't help matters between the sisters. IMHO she attempted to rough with Lisa at the lunch but Lisa wasn't having it. I imagine Taylor gave as much as she got--not that it's right in any case...




YES!

and I always got this "Let me win SOMETHING" vibe from her! From her talking about how she got with Russel (chasing after him inspite of how indifferent he was towards her), picking on the most vulnerable of the cast (Kim), to trying to name Adrienne and her hubby as Kennedy's god parents
(FAIL)...she tires WAY too hard!
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