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6-6: "Sundown" 2010.03.02 (recap)


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#361

Pallas429

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:00 PM

It may be more noble for Dogen to sacrifice himself for his son, but that doesn't make Jacob's ultimatum "good". He's getting what he want - Dogen as his lifelong slave. It reflects well on Dogen, but not so much on Jacob.


One difference is that the "hard bargain" offered Dogen by Jacob not only gives Dogen what he wants, but also, offers him the chance to do the right thing: to make a moral choice that undoes the terrible end of an amoral choice. And so, to go on to live a life that by that choice alone, may seem to Dogen far more meaningful than that of a businessman. To be a good man, not just a good businessman.

(Shades of Scrooge, to Jacob (sic) Marley: "You were always a good man of business, Jacob." "Business?" Marley keens. "Business? MANKIND was my business!")

And still, Dogen does not seem to be Dogen's slave as much as a leader -- responsible, respected, with a cool nickname AND a cool hideout. He has been given the chance to serve, not only Jacob, but many other people: to lead and care for people, rather than, say, drink himself to death in penance for how he failed his son.

I suspect whatever Esau offers, it is not the chance to undo the harm one has caused to a loved one, nor then to have the opportunity to serve others, from a place of authority. And in that, I think the choice that Jacob offers does reflect well on Jacob, as well.

Edited by Pallas429, Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:05 PM.


#362

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:01 PM

I think that some weight must be given to Miles telling Sayid, "You were dead for TWO hours, whoever brought you back wasn't them".

1. Miles knows dead. He talks to dead. Perhaps he had a nice postmortem chat with DeadSayid.
2. NotQuiteDeadSayid seems to decide right then to NOT help the Others. He might have felt some sense of gratitude when he thought they had saved his life, but now he seems to switch to the baddies.

Count me among those getting tired of the AU, and the ambiguity regarding what it represents.

Oh, if we're calling FakeLocke "Flocke", can we call EvilClaire "Eclair"?

#363

shadymc

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:06 PM

As for the idea that there is no proof the AU was caused by the Losties, their intention was to go back in time and make sure the plane crash didn't happen. Juliet said "it worked". Also, does anyone remember the van that carried Locke's body had a name on the side that was an annagram for "reincarnation"?

#364

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:10 PM

Oh, if we're calling FakeLocke "Flocke", can we call EvilClaire "Eclair"?

I love it!

I, too, am a bit bored by the flash sideways. But then the flashforwards, and flashbacks have always been the most boring parts for me, in general. Yes, some were more interesting than others, but mostly I like Island time.

#365

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:29 PM

It's not an alternate Universe, this is a new life - within the same Universe - that sustains itself on the castaways's experiences when they changed the incident at the Swan Station on 1977 therefore, as a direct result, Dogen's son is now alive in another life in which he met Jack & David Shephard - once again, within the same Universe - so, in order to sustain that life, Dogen had to stop Smokey or else the very changes that allowed his son to be alive again might be for nothing.

So, in that sense, neither Jacob nor Smokey would be lying. Smokey can reunite Claire with her son, he can give Nadia back to Sayid only the thing is: he can only do so in the new reality. Just like Jacob did with Dogen's son.

Edited by just watching2, Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:30 PM.


#366

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 8:51 PM

I'm not clear on the extent of Jacob's powers, but even if he has the ability to save lives wherever he goes, I'm not really comfortable with the expectation that he should just save everyone who's sick or dying and he's a jerk if he doesn't, nor the notion that he's wrong for asking for something in return when he does intervene.


Yeah, and I add: isn't the above exactly what many ask of God? "If there is a God, how come there is famine/disease/this person had to die/lord working in mysterious ways, etc ?
And those who feel they have received a miracle, isn't it standard operating procedure to then be a Believer and a Follower and, for lack of a better term at the moment, Give Back?

#367

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 9:11 PM

Thinking about Bargains at Sundown...

Christian Shephard was facing a sundown of his own, Down Under, where he fled to escape his own failed fathering, and foundered again, with Claire. What if he didn't simply die of drink, but instead, as the result of being offered and accepting one of Jacob's Bargains?

Maybe the game is not simply one in which the two god-like players sacrifice their pawns, but where at least some of the pawns have the chance to sacrifice themselves, and so, change the very nature of the game? Maybe even -- if enough of them strike the right bargain and come to form a critical mass, like a moral A-bomb -- end it?

If that is true, as a poster from last week's discussion wrote, we are not waiting to be shown the endgame: we are seeing it.

#368

Energiya Buran

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 9:11 PM

This reminded me of the scene in the cave with the scale, where FLocke removes the white stone and throws it into the water. What if, rather than representing evil prevailing over good, it instead represents imbalance and chaos prevailing over balance and order?

This is interesting but if not for Dogen actually talking about a good or evil scale with Sayid, then I'd wonder. But, after Dogen went down the good/evil scale analogy, it worked for me.

There have been some questions about the sequence of Sayid trying to kill Flocke. It was definitely this:
1. Sayid walks into a clearing (drinks water)
2. Wind stirs, Smokey's noises start
3. Flocke appears and says, "Hello Sayid."
4. Sayid plunges the knife into his heart

Total bummer that he spoke first before the plunge...there might not have been enough time to plunge the knife BEFORE Flocke spoke. He was too quick to speak and most likely knew he had to say *something* or anything before the knifing. Flocke had to know that Sayid was there for that very reason and what better way to close the gap than speak first. My question now is what type of knife did Dogen give Sayid? Or where in the Bible could that knife could've been used...

I like the idea of Sundown being connected to Good Friday and the resurrection. In addition to the Israelites following a pillar of smoke (from upthread).

Oh, if we're calling FakeLocke "Flocke", can we call EvilClaire "Eclair"?

I love it too! She looked especially evil down in that hole. Evil and content in knowing that her "friend" was cleaning house. I don't think kate could've made any type of explanation for raising Aaron that she would understand. It's not the old Claire, it's EClaire! Yeah, I like that.

#369

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 9:32 PM

So, I don't think we should get hung up on the good/evil deal. In a war, guys who do the killing on your side are courageous and righteous; guys who do the killing from the Other side are craven, murderous blackhearts.


There are too many good versus evil themes to think that we shouldn't get hung up on it. Black and white rocks balancing on a scale. Backgammon--black and white markers. MIB wearing black and Jacob wearing white as they sit and talk on the beach. How can we not see black and white as good and evil? It is being shoved down our throats seemingly in every episode!

Yes, there are shades of gray when you bring in and judge the reasons people do things. But Sayid did not have to go and kill those men, nor did he have to kill Dogen and his sidekick, and in fact, Nadja asked him not to. But his true nature won out and I think that is the theme this season--that each character's true nature wins out in the AU. Kate is stil a lying, conniving be-otch, Sayid is still a killer. Jack redeems himself by seing the error of his ways and committing to change. Jury is still out on Sawyer since he hasn't had is epi yet. I am sure Hurley is all good. So they are splitting and joining teams based on their true nature, and we are going to witness the war between the goodies and badies. Funny that, at least in the present, Ben is with the goodies!

#370

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 9:50 PM

There are too many good versus evil themes to think that we shouldn't get hung up on it. Black and white rocks balancing on a scale. Backgammon--black and white markers. MIB wearing black and Jacob wearing white as they sit and talk on the beach. How can we not see black and white as good and evil? It is being shoved down our throats seemingly in every episode!


Because unless these guys totally suck as writers they should be using our preconceived notions of what is good/bad against us and challenge our easy assumptions that black=bad or white=good or vice versa. Look at this story from UnLocke's perspective (what little we know of his perspective) --- somehow, someway he's been 'trapped' for centuries and Jacob has kept him down. But, we know so little about UnLocke. Really, we know nothing about him. So, they've given us the lure and trap of easy assumptions.

#371

Energiya Buran

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 9:52 PM

Yes, there are shades of gray when you bring in and judge the reasons people do things. But Sayid did not have to go and kill those men, nor did he have to kill Dogen and his sidekick, and in fact, Nadja asked him not to.

Going back to one shade of gray is when Locke asked Ben for Earl Grey tea in the teacher's lounge; hee! Otherwise, yes, the black and white theme has hit me smack dab over the head...but I am not complaining.

But, I think Sayid did have to kill Keamy and his men. Sayid was by himself after being taken outside the house. He had 3 guys around him and he knew it wasn't going to be some casual conversation between friends. Sayid was well aware that it was them or him, so, when push came to shove, Sayid chose HIM and killed. Because, it was kill or be killed and he knew it...he had to.

#372

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 10:08 PM

if we're calling FakeLocke "Flocke", can we call EvilClaire "Eclair"?

LOL!!

More seriously: Have I got this right? Dogen believes the message that Sayid must not die or else bad things (i.e., Smokey) will happen. But Dogen thinks Sayid is evil. So he tries to set things up so that Sayid will die but it won't be his fault.
Or, maybe the message really said that Sayid was supposed to take Dogen's place?

#373

figaro317

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 10:09 PM

I watched this again today. Right after Sayid slits Lennon's throat, they go to a shot outside that shows Miles. You hear the Smoke Monster sounds and see two guards with guns. If you blink, you don't see it but a small white circle comes out of the water in front of the guards and disappears to the right. Is that Dogen's soul leaving the Temple?

#374

Energiya Buran

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 10:27 PM

But Dogen thinks Sayid is evil. So he tries to set things up so that Sayid will die but it won't be his fault.

Dogen knows that evil has begun the path in Sayid. But Sayid said that he still had good in him and Dogen wanted him to prove it by killing Flocke in a very specific way. IF Sayid had plunged the knife in before he spoke, then maybe Dogen would know that the good was in Sayid and it would stop the evil. All moot now since it didn't happen, again, not complaining. I loved evil Sayid. he does evil right.

I don't think he was sending Sayid to his death. Albeit, he knew it was possible, but with that possibility came the other scenario...that he'd kill Flocke too; 50/50. Dogen still wanted to maintain the Temple and had Sayid going on a mission in order to keep that in tact. It was worth the risk.

#375

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 10:29 PM

I have absolute faith that Team Smokey will not prevail. Why? Because Kate is with them, and Kate is the original bad luck charm for the men she encounters. It doesn't matter if you're her father, childhood sweetheart, bank manager, nice-guy Aussie farmer, escorting marshall, or former boyfriend. You're doomed, if not to death, then to other unpleasant circumstances that will drive you to drink and/or drugs.

#376

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 10:37 PM

I don't get this argument with the Sayid/Keamy scene. Once somebody kidnaps you and has their goons with guns holding you hostage, you are pretty much entitled to do whatever the hell you want to get free. You're just supposed to trust them when they're like, oh, no worries, we can just forget about the money? I don't think so. Obviously the moment Sayid let Keamy go, he would go find whoever his boss is, or hire some new goons, and come after Sayid. I mean seriously.

#377

benteen

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 10:53 PM

Dogan definitely made a mistake by throwing Sayid to NotLocke. He should have just left well enough alone.

#378

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 11:23 PM

I'm also in the camp of those who belive the AU is the epilogue, and Belmonte, thanks for pointing out that it would take too long to go through all of this at the end. It would also be boring. If we saw all the Losties die on the island and then tuned in to watch the AU, everyone would lose interest in the show. I guess they'll all die, or merge with the AU. And I love that Juliet would be the hero.


I like this theory a lot, except...Rose! She will die! :( In the case of her and Bernard, I think that their Island life bested the alternative...Rose has come to terms with it (the terminal illness) in the AU (as shown during her conversation with Locke), however, if I recall, she had done the same pre-crash (not wanting to go looking for 'miracle treatments' and whatnot).

I thought this was the writers redirecting the audience to think that Miles' original interest in Claire (that caused Sawyer to tell him to back off) was just because she was attractive, not because she died in the explosion, was quickly brought back to life, and that Miles could tell she was not really alive.


Awesome idea!

edited for spelling typo :|

Edited by MissMarigold, Mar 4, 2010 @ 10:32 AM.


#379

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 11:24 PM

Once somebody kidnaps you and has their goons with guns holding you hostage, you are pretty much entitled to do whatever the hell you want to get free.

Actually, I'm thinking that Jin actually does speak English in the AU. He certainly knew that it was okay to make noise the moment Sayid killed the last guy.

#380

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 11:32 PM

I watched this again today. Right after Sayid slits Lennon's throat, they go to a shot outside that shows Miles. You hear the Smoke Monster sounds and see two guards with guns. If you blink, you don't see it but a small white circle comes out of the water in front of the guards and disappears to the right. Is that Dogen's soul leaving the Temple?

I just noticed that too! I was going to theorize it's Tinkerbell.

#381

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 11:39 PM

Just watched the episode, and I'm kind of disappointed that Dogen's backstory ended up being so...mundane, after the fight scene, not to mention all of the theories that people had thought up. I was beginning to think that he really was an immortal samurai from the ancient times. (After all, how many bankers do you know who can take down Sayid like that?)

The emphasis on not letting WTFLocke speak before killing me reminds of the scene in The Two Towers where Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli encounter what they think is Saruman in Fangorn, and Aragorn warns everyone to not let Saruman speak or he would put a spell on them with his voice. (Although, of course, "Saruman" ends up being Gandalf, back from the dead, and I don't think we can exactly call WTFLocke Locke the White any time soon.)

The title, "Sundown," also made me think of sundown towns, where people of color were told that they had to get out of town by sundown, or else risk being beaten or killed. (To be fair, I don't think this is what the writers intended, since it would be a pretty far stretch, not to mention it would be exploiting a very tragic part of our past, but I couldn't help but think of that when people were discussing the title's meaning.)

Edited by mononoke, Mar 4, 2010 @ 12:02 AM.


#382

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Posted Mar 3, 2010 @ 11:53 PM

[snip]

Why did Dogen say that NOW that Jacob's dead, Smokey is free? Hasn't Smokey been hanging out killing people and impersonating horses and stuff since Season 1? What's the difference?

Awesome episode, by the way, Sayid is so cool regardless of his evil-ness

Edited by TWoP Mars, Mar 4, 2010 @ 9:33 AM.
15/15


#383

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 12:43 AM

But Jacob wasn't threatening to kill Dogen's son: Dogen is the one who put his son's life in peril, and the kid was going to die because of that. Jacob offered to save the son, and the price of that intervention was something Dogan agreed to.


Based on what we have seen before with the others, I don't think we can necessarily rule out that Jacob didn't influence Dogen in the past to make him an alcoholic.

I wonder if there is a difference between shooting Smokey and stabbing him. When Jacob's people shot at Flocke he turned Smokey on them almost immediately. When this happened I initially thought that the shots themselves caused Flocke to turn into Smokey as a mechanism for protection. But I'm guessing now that Flocke can control when he turns into Smokey and thus knew he could use Sayid for his advantage. Maybe Dogen thought that the stabbing would cause an automatic Smokey-attack.

Edited by oldsword, Mar 4, 2010 @ 12:21 AM.


#384

mista j

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 12:47 AM

While it was great to see him again, I thought that alt-reality Keamy was a bit too Christopher-Walken. Freighter-Keamy's understated mean humor is what made him so creepy and cool.

What "business" was Dogen in that made him a ninja? Or did the Temple have its own resident ninja on hand to teach newcomers? Will we meet him? Will he be played by Sho Kosugi?

Faucke (Mocke? UnLocke? Non Locke?) seems to know the experiences of all the Lostaways, so surely he'd not allow Kate to tag along, since every mission she joins is doomed to failure/undue drama... I'm just sayin'. Maybe he'd have his own type of grey ash to keep her at a safe distance...

#385

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 12:51 AM

so surely he'd not allow Kate to tag along, since every mission she joins is doomed to failure/undue drama... I'm just sayin'. Maybe he'd have his own type of grey ash to keep her at a safe distance...


LMAO..so true!

I wonder if he gave Kate a weird look because her name wasn't on his cave ceiling. She's Jacob's secret weapon! Whoopee!

Or he could just be figuring out ways to get rid of her for the above reason ;)

#386

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 1:27 AM

Just watching - hi! I think that Dogen could have killed Sayid. I don't think that there is any reason to think that infected people can't be killed by normal means. The Other who was killed by Claire certainly seemed to believe he could kill Claire if he was free and Claire certainly believed that she was vulnerable.


The issue isn't that Sayid is infected; it's that Sayid's a candidate. As far as we can tell, the Others can't kill candidates and FLocke probably cannot either. Claire is not a candidate, so she doesn't get that protection.

I tend to take magical/supernatural commands very literally, so when Dogen said Sayid could not let Locke say anything, I understood that to mean anything. So when Locke uttered the "hello Sayid," I figured Sayid was doomed.

I'm not buying Jacob as good, though. He's too apathetic to the deaths of his followers and the misery of other people on the island. I don't know what the Jacob/FLocke deal is or how (if?) it parallels Widmore/Linus, but too many fairly innocent people have been collateral damage for me to see either of them as good. I do like the theory that part of FLocke's being trapped was serving Jacob and his followers, though. It explains some of what currently seems inconsistent about Smokey judging people, being a security system, etc.

#387

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 1:35 AM

I don't believe that Dugan was a banker. That whole story he told Sayid just didn't seem right to me. Even if he realized the end was near, it was weird that he would choose to tell the infected-with-evil person all his personal details when he had been SO tight lipped with everyone else. And where did he get those ninja skills? Unless he was a "banker" the same way that Jin was "businessman" maybe? I think he must have had some very special qualities, not just another tragic family story, to be chosen to be THE temple keeper, right? The whole thing seemed off to me.

Of course it probably doesn't matter now because we will never see it tied in with any of the other million loose threads. Maybe I'm just mad because I wanted him to be some special ancient ageless dude, a la Richard.

Edited by cindy brady, Mar 4, 2010 @ 1:38 AM.


#388

melora

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 1:50 AM

People have been asking why Jin was not with Smokey and Claire. He probably can't walk yet. Also, I don't think he's on Team Smokey. He was afraid of Claire and surprised to see Locke. I wonder if the island will heal him quickly.

Keamy really reminds me of Christopher Walken at his creepiest.

The Others didn't have much time to make up their minds about whether to leave the temple. I think some of them will defect to the other side. I think Kate will too.

#389

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 3:24 AM

Unless he was a "banker" the same way that Jin was "businessman" maybe? I think he must have had some very special qualities, not just another tragic family story, to be chosen to be THE temple keeper, right? The whole thing seemed off to me.

This made me wonder if Dogen used to work for Paik and/or Widmore in some capacity. Dogen's not a candidate himself, and yet Jacob went to him himself, according to Dogen. I doubt Dogen was a random selection. There's something more in his backstory that we didn't get. Perhaps Dogen was involved in some shady dealings beyond getting into a drunken car crash. There might be even more than the crash that he was trying to atone for.

But I don't think Dogen's martial arts skills are all that unusual. My cousin used to be a ranked competitor in tae kwon do, and she's an accountant. I'm sure there are bankers, especially in Japan, who are also expert martial artists.

#390

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Posted Mar 4, 2010 @ 4:38 AM

The more I see of the side flashes (even when they are not so great, as in Sayid's case), the more I am convinced that the island is A Very Bad Place, healing powers notwithstanding. Most of the folks who are in the alternate timelines are living decent lives (instead of being a creepy-ass murderer, Ben's a fussy teacher, Ethan's a nice doctor, etc.)

I think Jacob was not protecting the island from the world but protecting the world from the island, and I suspect that Smoky was a necessary part of that protection. A ying to Jacob's yang, if you will.

Remember on the roof of the hatch, there were notes that called Smoky "Cerebus"? Cerebus was the guardian at the mouth of hell ...

Now that Jacob is dead, the balance is out of whack, and Smoky is free to leave the island, and if he does, there will be nothing to stop all of the island's evilness from rushing outwards and over the earth. That's my theory, anyhow.

BTW, Naveen Andrews rocks.