109 replies to this topic

[TWoP Roxy]

From zap2it.com:

Daniel Graystone and Joseph Adama work to make the vision of a lifelike avatar a reality in order to restore their deceased daughters.

[Murphy987]

Well, I honestly enjoyed that as much as the first time I watched it. It's certainly not perfect, and I'm obviously not as invested in the characters as I was for BSG, but it most certainly has me wanting more. I can't wait to see how this show and universe evolves.

Well done, RDM, you've got me hooked again.

[AliceLee]

Zoe A will go mad inside that body. She's afraid of humans now. That fear will quickly become contempt, I suspect. Humanity is already dead. Daniel will become that hybrid young Bill Adama found. The man is damned.

[Emily Thrace]

Well that was compelling I think would be the best word I will have analysis later but that's the jist of it for now

[Nikki125]

I first watched this months ago and didn't care for it at all, so I decided to watch it again. I liked it much better this time around. The pacing was very slow, but I still found myself intrigued by the characters, particularly the Adama family and their history and struggle against prejudice.

The previews for upcoming eps have made me excited to see more.

[Wrenchwind]

Hey, they made the Caprica Buccaneers stadium fancier!

I think a lot of the other neat cityscape establishing shots were new, too, but I don't feel like doing a scene-by-scene comparison.

[jcin617]

I've watched this a couple of times since the DVD came out, and then once again tonight. Each time I've liked it a little more, to the point I'm really excited for the season.

[Nightmare Logic]

I like this alot. Question though....did we know Bill Adama was a Tauran? (That is how you spell it right?)

Anyway has potential as in.....We are dooooooooom. And yes I need all those "0"'s,

Hey any chance we'll see little Laura?

Edited by Nightmare Logic, Jan 22, 2010 @ 11:56 PM.

[AliceLee]

Little Laura won't be along for another few years.

[shapeshifter]

Well done. So Bill Adama's sister became a Cylon?

[Nikki125]

I like this alot. Question though....did we know Bill Adama was a Tauran? (That is how you spell it right?)

Actually, Bill isn't Tauron, he was born on Caprica. IIRC, it was never mentioned in BSG that Joseph and other members of his family were from Tauron.

[Wrenchwind]

Being Tauron probably matters a lot less in the BSG time frame-- back in Dirty Hands (I think it was Dirty Hands) Tauron is mentioned as being one of the rich, privileged colonies, and nobody bats an eye at Cain being Tauron even as people from Sagittarion or Gemenon or Aerelon get sneers and dirty looks for being poor, religious, provincial, or some combination of the three.

One can assume that the First Cylon War and the Articles of Colonization did a lot to reshuffle inter-colonial relationships, I guess.

[Irish Wolf]

They never actually mentioned on BSG what planet the Adamas came from - Bill was kind of lumped into one of Zarek's political rants about "Caprican arrogance", but I think that was supposed to be more of an assumption on Tom's part, in that he acted as if anyone in a position of power was from Caprica automatically (even though Saul Tigh was from Picon, as far as he knew at the time...).

For that matter, I don't think they were really clear about where Bill was born - Joseph said something about how "my family escaped, and came here," but that may have just been himself and his wife and mother, for all we know so far. I do wonder, though, whether Bill will start going by "Adama" at school, and if so how that will affect how the other kids treat him, considering the contempt so many Capricans seem to have for Taurons.

[mandelbrot]

It's good to see positive responses here to the pilot. In the original thread a number of people said it was slow or glacial. I thought that it was good dramatic development, rather than relying on car chases and gunfights to fill up the minutes. I read an article in a British sci-fi magazine in which Jane Espenson talked about how much she's enjoyed writing some of the scripts to come and how she loved writing for the characters of Samuel Adama and Sister Clarice. I'm looking forward to this series.

[zelmia]

Okay I confess that I was flipping back and forth on the second hour. But it seemed really preach-y to me with the whole "one god" business and it really took me out of it. Not that I was ever wholly invested, but that whole aspect of it just kind of .... I don't know. Not my cuppa tea, I guess.

I also didn't really understand what the daughter's beef was. She got busted at school then was all bent out of shape because (gasp!) her parents were going to punish her for it? Was this something new in that household? I mean, sorry she got blown up and all, but I woulda been glad not to have to listen to the shrieking any more.

Also, the Eric Stoltz character seemed like kind of a tool to me. His performance was fine it was totally the character himself.

[BigandTallLover]

Sorry if this was covered in the earlier thread, but I'm having a lot of trouble fitting "Caprica" into the Kobol continuity, and I'd appreciate it if someone could clear things up.

Basically, I just can't figure out how we get from the Kobol Centurions and Cylons to the Caprican/Graystone variety; or how we get from the Kobol consciousness created by the Final Five to the Zoe-based consciousness; or what the relationship between what I thought were 2 distinct creation/evolution arcs for Cylons. To wit:

1. I thought the Final Five made the 8 skinjob models, thousands of years ago on Kobol. And I thought that's where the war between Cavil and Final Five and the other models started.

2. If so, then what do the human-Cylon wars in the 12 Colonies have to do with the original skinjobs? Why would they care what humans do with or to a new batch of Centurions?

3. And if the skinjobs are from Kobol, where are they "now"? Infiltrated into human society? As of when?

4. If the answer is 'Cavil's had them all on ice for a while but has awakened them (with their altered memories and programming) and sent them to the Colonies" then that begs two more qustions:

4A. Has Cavil been hanging around the 12 Colonies all this time, with the Final Five and 8 models all boxed or otherwise dormant, all alone on a Resurrection Ship, or a Base Star, waiting for the right moment to awaken/unleash everyone? Why now? Why not when the colonies were less developed and it would have been easier to wipe them out?

4B: And, wouldn't someone, anyone, in the 12 Colonies kind of *notice* a Resurrection Ship or a Base Star hanging around that area of space?

5. Oh, and: Where did the hybrids come from, anyway?

Does anyone know the answers to any of these questions, or will it all be covered in the new series?

[Oral B]

I will try to tackle this, although my understanding is a bit imperfect.

The "Final Five" Cylons orginated on Earth (not our Earth). They made it to the Twelve Colonies 15-20 years after the events in the pilot for "Caprica" and found a bunch of monotheistic robots who were really into killing all humans. Those robots had already tried to make human-looking variations that came up looking like the old man in the bathtub. This was pretty impressive, but wasn't going to fool anyone.

It wasn't until then that this iteration of skinjobs came to be. They adopted the Cylon God as their own, and taught them how to build humanoid machines under the condition that they cease aggression. (This would be about 40 years before the Oceans of Picon, the Pastures of Tauron, and the Cities of Caprica were burning.) They designed eight models, but Cavil killed the sensitive one, leaving seven. They spent the next few decades waiting for the perfect time to strike.

At some point between the beginning of open Cylon aggression and the destruction of all civilzation, Cavil killed all five of his parents and decided it would be fun to frak them up and good. He slowly re-introduced them into the human population as losers, in hopes of teaching them a lesson. This may seem as slow-moving as "Carnivale," but nigh-immortal robots take a longer view of things than we do.

The short version of this is that, at least so far, the earlier iteration of Cylons has nothing to do with the Cylon we've already seen. Unless God gets itself involved.

Edited by Oral B, Jan 23, 2010 @ 3:17 AM.

[ShaniquaVan]

Good questions. Not sure, but I think:

1. I thought the Final Five made the 8 skinjob models, thousands of years ago on Kobol. And I thought that's where the war between Cavil and Final Five and the other models started.

The 8 skinjobs were secretly created in Cylon-occupied space (not Kobol) by the Final Five as a bribe to the mecha-Cylons in order to end the first Cylon War.

Your confusion is ok, since there were also Cylons on Kobol and on Old Earth. Humans repeatedly created Cylons and were repeatedly annihilated by them over thousands of years. "Everything has happened before, and will happen again..." Big BSG theme is that warlike humans are ultimately doomed to be destroyed by their attempts to create replicas of warlike humans (Cylons). Not so bright, these mostly-hairless apes...

5. Oh, and: Where did the hybrids come from, anyway?

They are composed of a durable unobtanium/handwavium alloy.

[MTBradley]

Wow, maybe it is just because I like Stoltz and Morales so much but I really enjoyed this. But after the way BSG played out I’m gunshy about getting attached to anything from the franchise.

[AliceLee]

The whole One True God thing didn't bother me. Caprica isn't trying to preach. It's simply a part of these mythical characters' mythology and belief system. As for how Zoe A is a continuity breach, she isn't. It's all quite clever from my point of view. She's now trapped inside a mechanical body while she remembers being human, even though she never was. I suspect that she, and the new Tamara A we saw in the preview scenes will be seen in some sort of dramatic license sort of way--like we saw Scott Bakula in Quantum leap even though he was supposed to be in different bodies of different people. Also, they may still be able to exist in a virtual matrix such as the V Club and other virtual environments. That the cylons had their beginnings as a separate consciousness in a virtual world makes a great deal of sense, more so than if a bunch of mechanical robots just suddenly became self aware and developed a contrary monotheistic theology out of nowhere no less.

Think about it and Zoe Graystone being the first cylon will really make sense in that context in terms of how the cylons acted later. That virtual matrix, which gave the early cylon entities a freedom to roam and not being under any human's command was the nascent inspiration for developing the ability to project their own environment. Why wouldn't they want to project to escape the confines of slavery and slow moving, lumbering bodies?

Edited by AliceLee, Jan 23, 2010 @ 8:53 AM.

[jcin617]

Remember what the Hybrid always liked to say, "Mists of dreams drip along the nascent echo and love no more end of line." The more I think about that, it seems perfect to me that the origin of the Cylon soul is the virtual echo of a human.

[AliceLee]

YES! They're all a virtual echo of one pampered and indulged teenage girl with god like technical knowledge but no wisdom, a girl who thought she knew everything just like any adolescent. A girl who thought her virtual copy/child would change humanity for the better. Then that "child" was left alone without any guidance. At what point will Zoe's childish belief that her creation could improve humanity become Zoe A's decision to wipe it out? Zoe's dreams (to change humanity for the better) dripped along her nascent echo (Zoe A and the later cylons). Then those dreams became no more when Zoe A (presumably) instigates the first cylon war. There was no more love for the humans.

It's perfect.

Edited by AliceLee, Jan 23, 2010 @ 9:30 AM.

[Effra]

Also, they may still be able to exist in a virtual matrix such as the V Club and other virtual environments. That the cylons had their beginnings as a separate consciousness in a virtual world makes a great deal of sense, more so than if a bunch of mechanical robots just suddenly became self aware and developed a contrary monotheistic theology out of nowhere no less.

Think about it and Zoe Graystone being the first cylon will really make sense in that context in terms of how the cylons acted later. That virtual matrix, which gave the early cylon entities a freedom to roam and not being under any human's command was the nascent inspiration for developing the ability to project their own environment.

Very much agree AliceLee. I think that it is a great place to start, and it certainly explains neatly from where projection comes. Out of the human need to escape reality - first Zoe into the possibilities of the virtual world and then from the reality she found down there and then Daniel from the reality of death -come this ability to will reality away. I also think that it kind of makes sense of the first Centurions' desire for there to be humanoid Cylons: the desire to return to what in some sense was originally trapped inside.

Remember what the Hybrid always liked to say, "Mists of dreams drip along the nascent echo and love no more end of line." The more I think about that, it seems perfect to me that the origin of the Cylon soul is the virtual echo of a human.

That's a wonderful catch jcin617. Love it!

At what point will Zoe's childish belief that her creation could improve humanity become Zoe A's decision to wipe it out? Zoe's dreams (to change humanity for the better) dripped along her nascent echo (Zoe A and the later cylons). Then those dreams became no more when Zoe A (presumably) instigates the first cylon war. There was no more love for the humans.

I really like that way of thinking about it AliceLee. I also think that the whole One True God movement works very well with this theme. Right from the first moment a Cylon is created is inside a consciousness tied to a group that thought that an idea of God justified destruction. The humans will be destroyed not just by a species that they themselves created but in the name of a belief system created by humans and as a critique of their failings.

I am very much looking forward to where they go with the monotheism story line. I already like the way that this is a different reaction to the polytheism of the Twelve Colonies than the one that comes with Baltar's cult and yet they both make sense. That was a reaction against a power structure and a feeling that the gods had abandoned them to an awful fate, and this is a reaction against decadence and the apparent meaninglessness of endless gratification. And both versions make things too easy for the people who believe them because they seem to provide absolution without responsibility: they provide justifications for destruction.

[AliceLee]

And both versions make things too easy for the people who believe them because they seem to provide absolution without responsibility: they provide justifications for destruction.

Religious zealotry brought to its extreme. It's right to destroy them because they're bad. It's God's will. Of course there's no self reflection. We're good because we follow God's will. No self reflection on how wrong it is to murder en masse, or how devastatingly cruel to create sleeper agents who become psychologically human and then lose both their humanity and their cylon-ness because their human friends reject them and all they have left are their "enemies" from whence they came. Enemies with whom they can never really identify no matter how much they try. I consider Boomer the most tragic character in the BSG universe.

[zelmia]

I consider Boomer the most tragic character in the BSG universe.

I think all the more so precisely because she was aware.

[capt planet]

I enjoyed this episode. Particularly the sexual tension between Morales and Stolz. Yowza!

Edit: If this Daniel is *the Daniel,* this series should be very interesting. Can't wait to see how that could be weaved into BSG's cannon.

Edited by capt planet, Jan 23, 2010 @ 2:25 PM.

[theschnauzers]

The aired "edited" version was fine, especially for those who aren't familar with the BSG mythology, but I do still feel that the uncut DVD version better explained what was going on in this episode and laying the groundwork for the series as a whole.

As far as I can tell, everything in the aired version is in the uncut DVD version. I think the rendering of the earlier Caprica City of this episode worked extremely well having seen the Caprica City rendered in BSG: The Plan, and in the BSG series.

I aagree with the explanations in the above posts about how things fit together between the BSG mythology and the evolving canon for Caprica. It all fits together well. The idea that Greystone becomes the Old Hybrid from Razo is an interesting one, but I think the jury's still out on that. It's quite possible, but I'm not sure we'll know until the end of the Caprica series.

[Irish Wolf]

Okay, correcting myself here after (finally!) reading Jacob's recap of the DVD (didn't read it before, because for reasons too complex to go into here I didn't get to see the DVD). Yes, it was mentioned that Joseph and Sam came to Caprica as boys, and that Willie specifically was born on Caprica. My bad - all I can plead is that when that scene was on, I was being told to look up the symptoms of mumps on the Intertubes (no mumps in the actual child, as it turned out, just an upper-respiratory infection and a cavity).

[flickchick85]

Edit: If this Daniel is *the Daniel,* this series should be very interesting. Can't wait to see how that could be weaved into BSG's cannon.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd feel about this. Part of me would love to see this happen because that's still a part that bugged me about BSG and I'd love to think RDM was just playing dumb when explaining the "oversight," but the other part says that it just wouldn't jive with what little we already know about *the Daniel* and would cry foul if they tried it. Oh well, I'll just do my very best to keep an open mind because I too am interested to see if that will play out.

Overall, I liked the pilot the first time I saw it, and I liked it even better this time around. I think this has the potential to be a really wonderful series IF (and this is kind of a big if) they can manage to keep all of their BSG mythology straight as they go along. On that front, so far, Bill Adama's age is irking me a little bit, but that's a minor quibble.

I can't wait to see what a regular season episode is like. The season preview looked pretty darn good (loving the additions to the cast, too).

Edited by flickchick85, Jan 23, 2010 @ 3:41 PM.

[JoleneBrown]

I see how the mythology can fit together, but somehow it's a couple steps too convoluted to be satisfying for me. Even though I liked No Exit at the time, in retrospect, I desperately wish they had chosen some other backstory for the Cylons. What they chose, while factually plausible, just doesn't satisfy me somehow, and it does feel like there's friction with the Caprica idea of Cylons, so that even though you can tie it together at a factual level - it doesn't fit together emotionally for me.