767 replies to this topic

[TWoP Pembleton]

This discussion started in the Russell H. thread, and I thought it was better continued here. Make your case -- who has been the best Survivor ever? What criteria do you use to judge? Can someone be the best who didn't win their season? Is it all about strategy? Who was most enjoyable to watch?

So this isn't who is your favorite -- who is the best? Go.

[Nutjob]

This isn't going to be popular, and I intensely dislike the creep myself, but I'd argue that Brian Heidik was the best player ever. He controlled everything from day 1, and no one in his alliance ever questioned him or thought to vote him out. He was great in challenges, and played everyone so well that he essentially had complete loyalty from every single person on his original tribe. The only reason he didn't win unanimously was because Penny was a narcissistic idiot.

[D Moose]

Of dubious relevance to the discussion, but the contrast struck me as funny:

From Yul Kwon's wikipedia page:

Kwon is involved with numerous charitable projects. After Survivor, he helped his co-finalist, Becky Lee, establish Becky’s Fund, a nonprofit helping victims of domestic violence. He works with several nonprofits to raise awareness of the need for more minority bone marrow donors, and is a spokesperson for the Asian American Donor Program and the National Marrow Donor Program

From Brian Heidik's wikipedia page:

Before Survivor, Heidik worked as a soft-core porn star.

On July 5, 2006, Heidik was arrested for allegedly shooting a 12 to 16-week-old shepherd-hound mix puppy with an arrow. Heidik claims he thought the animal who had wandered into his yard was a fox or a coyote even though he was just a foot away from the animal when shooting. He was charged with domestic battery and cruelty to animals.

The biggest argument against Yul is, I suppose, the Magic HII, but I'm curious if anyone (else) has him in their top three or four?




edited for dumb mistakes

Edited by D Moose, Dec 14, 2009 @ 8:01 PM.

[Daydreamer101]

The only reason he didn't win unanimously was because Penny was a narcissistic idiot.

But Brian only won 4-3. Brian though I also found him creepy and cold was a very good player. I dislike Clay but I thought he did a good job of turning the goat strategy into a near win, by picking up votes from the other tribe that Brian forgot about (but I'm not nominating Clay as the the best survivor contestant / player, you need a much better social game for that honour).

Edited by Daydreamer101, Dec 14, 2009 @ 8:53 PM.

[rose3000]

JT is definitely at the top of my list right now, though I'd have to go back and think about some of the older seasons. Great strategy, amazing social game, terrific alliances, and won challenges when it mattered. JT's alliances also overcame a big numbers disadvantage post-merge. But most impressive to me is the way JT was seen by the jury. People wanted him to win. Not just because of his game but because they thought he was so great. His win was unanimous. And he wasn't up against an F2 goat. He was up against a pretty formidable player in Stephen.

It's funny that JT is my frontrunner because I was positively gobsmacked by his win. I always viewed Stephen as the mastermind, but the entire jury thought otherwise. And then when JT revealed the way he gamed the FTC (faking hurt and disappointment when Stephen actually argued against JT, which the jury, and the viewing audience, absolutely bought)... well let's just say I've come around.

Question: how do people feel about the idea of "best" players who didn't win? How far can you take that argument. You can argue that Boston Rob was one of the best, because even though he didn't win he might as well have. But what about other great players who either lost at FTC because of a bitter jury, or missed FTC altogether because the II winner knew it would be stupid to take them? Rob C. was the name brought up in Russell H.'s thread.

I'm torn on this question. The problem with someone who loses to a bitter jury is that it is possible to play an awesome game and still keep the jury from being bitter about your game. It requires a stellar social game, but it's possible. And it's possible to be a player that everyone knows is a great player and still make FTC (either by winning that crucial II or by virtue of incredibly loyal allies). So I think I have to say that no matter how good your game is, you can't be the best unless you win it. Even though that means that some of my favorite strategic players are out of the running.

[FlippinChipmunk]

Honestly, I think it's impossible to name someone as the best player, because it's so subjective. Just like the jury members, everyone looks at different criteria. Like for me, I'd base mine on social game & strategy. Not as much of an emphasis on the physical aspect, but I do hold that as being an important factor as well.

For me, I'd say that J.T. is one of the worst winners. While he was very good at the social aspect, Stephen was the one who came up with the plans. I also think Bob is a pretty crappy winner too, because other than being Macgyver he didn't do shit out there (did he win immunity some? I can't remember).

I also think Danni is one of the best winners. She was good strategically, socially, & physically. Just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean anything. The editors were too busy showing how Steph lost as opposed to how Danni won.

Ultimately, it boils down to personal preference & luck. Luck is such a huge factor in this game. Tina got lucky Colby had mommy issues, Vecepia got lucky Neleh was so young, Brian got lucky no one thought for themselves after the merge, Sandra got lucky Drake didn't lose any of the 1st few immunities & that Burton went back to Drake & Lil tagged along, Amber got lucky Boston Rob was there, Danni got lucky the jury hated Steph, Yul got lucky he was more obvious in his gameplay than Becky, as well as the fact that he was playing against immature Raro & Jonathan wanted to play rationally, Earl got lucky there was a switch before the merge & he went to Moto, Parvati got lucky Fairplay wanted to get voted out, as well as Kathy & Jonathan leaving (though I love her gameplay in Micronesia), Bob got lucky Sugar was on a mission of self-destruction & the merge happened right after Susie flipped against Kota, J.T. got lucky Stephen answered Debbie's question horribly.

Wow. If anyone can take that rambling mess & have it make sense, congrats. I'm incredibly sleep deprived (finals week) & it made a lot more sense in my head. Basically what I'm saying is that it's subjective in saying who is a good player & who isn't, & when people at Survivor Sucks get into these nasty arguments about it, it just proves that point even more.

[ByaNose]

Hey Flippiin, I understood your rambling perfectly and I totally agree with it all. It's funny I remember all of the winner, but actually forgot how the runner-up played in the winner winning it all. Now, does my rambling make sense? It does show you that it's not only important that you get to the final, but who you take to the final 2 or 3 is just as inportant.

[Lantern7]

Two words: Tom Westman. Hit the ground running, led Koror to multiple reward wins and total immunity supremacy, won all but two individual immunities, didn't get a single vote cast against him when all logic suggested that everybody take him out (remember, this was pre-hidden idol), and came to within one pissy player-hater's vote of winning the first unanimous vote in the show's history. Oh, and he caught a shark. When Chuck Norris goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet and under the bed for Tom.

I'm sorry . . . I really liked the guy. At the very least, no serious conversation about the best player ever should be without him.

[Hot Pink]

For me it's definitely Parvati. She played aggressively strategically and socially, and she gave entertaining (and yet usually well-reasoned) confessionals while doing it. I even thought she was an underestimated and above-average player in Cook Islands.

[heyadamo45]

I think Yul and Earl spring to mind most quickly. Of those, Yul had more to overcome and so his achievements
gain a bit more weight. But you know whose play and whose dominance I still fail to comprehend? Sugar.
The last half of the game, nothing happened without her say-so or approval, and the way she weaved between
alliances and players still amazes me (especially considering how much time she spent on Exile!) Even in not
winning she still exerted power and influence -- she wanted Bob to win because he deserved it, and who
ended up winning?

[myriadphalanx]

Best winner: Tough call. Is it more impressive if....

a) someone dominates a season and is never close to getting voted out (i.e. Brian Heidik or Tom Westman)

b) someone is in a bad spot and has to fight tooth-and-nail in a comeback (i.e. JT Thomas, Natalie White, Yul Kwon, Earl Cole, Bob Crowley, Chris Daugherty, Dannie Boatwright)

c) is constantly both in and out of control of the game and has to balance both sides of the power equation (i.e. Sandra Diaz-Twine, Parvati Shallow)?

It's really a very difficult decision, made even tougher by the fact that the rules change almost every season and the set-up for Survivor 19 was far, far different than that of Survivor 1. Also, modern winners were unquestionably influenced by the strategy and behaviour of previous winners.


As far as picking the best player who DIDN'T win, that's a no-brainer: Cirie Fields.

[IzzyBoy]

I think Yul and Earl spring to mind most quickly.

Those are my top two as well with a slight edge going to Yul (although personally I liked Earl more). They both were very dominant in their seasons and had great moments as well. For Yul my favorite was revealing he did have the HII and using that knowledge to influence Jonathan to vote with his tribe ("either vote with us or you're gone"). For Earl it was switching the vote to Edguardo because Alex had the HII idol. I loved his "well lets just vote Edguardo out...done and done" approach to that situation.

As far as best who didn't win I think you could throw Boston Rob during the Allstars season or Amanda for her two FTC appearances in there as well.

Edited by IzzyBoy, Dec 21, 2009 @ 1:12 PM.

[Bob Sambob]

But Earl wanted to vote out Mookie. It was Stacy's idea to make it Edgardo. I don't remember the specifics (I hated the Fiji season), but I do remember that there was a very key reason that it HAD to be Edgardo and not Mookie. Was it because that idiot Dreamz spilled the beans TO Mookie, meaning that if Alex caught wind of the plan, he would slip the idol to Mookie instead, leaving Edgardo exposed no matter what? I honestly can't remember. All I remember is that Stacy was the reason that plan worked, not Earl.

Edited by Bob Sambob, Dec 21, 2009 @ 2:26 PM.

[Daydreamer101]

For me it's definitely Parvati. She played aggressively strategically and socially, and she gave entertaining (and yet usually well-reasoned) confessionals while doing it.

Parvati played a great game in Micronesia. At one point she was balancing three different alliances. The woman's alliance dominated and she was the one who brought it together. She was also at the centre of that alliance linking Natalie/Alexis and Cirie/Amanda together and positioned herself well to get the end. I do think the switch back to F2 (which I've always preferred) worked in her favour and hurt Amanda. I think it is possible that Parvati and Cirie would have split the vote in a F3 situation and Amanda's guaranteed votes in Ozzy and James (and possibly Erik) would have gone further.

Speaking of Amanda you can't ignore her making it to FTC in back to back seasons unfortunately her fatal flaw is she can't sell her game to a jury.

For Earl it was switching the vote to Edguardo because Alex had the HII idol. I loved his "well lets just vote Edguardo out...done and done" approach to that situation.

I like Earl too but switching the vote to Edguardo was Stacy's idea. What I like about Earl is that similar to Parvati he did a very good job of positioning himself within his alliance.

ETA:

Was it because that idiot Dreamz spilled the beans TO Mookie, meaning that if Alex caught wind of the plan, he would slip the idol to Mookie instead, leaving Edgardo exposed no matter what?

Dreamz didn't tell Mookie but I think they voted for Edguardo just in case he did. I think they were also testing Dreamz's loyalty.

Edited by Daydreamer101, Dec 21, 2009 @ 2:38 PM.

[absolutqt]

There have been so many memorable choices but for my money, Boston Rob was my favorite contestant ever. He would turn on the competitve juices like no one else I've ever seen. And the man could do it all. Build an awesome shelter? Check. Physical challenges? Check. Puzzles? Check. Sweeping women off their feet? Got that covered too. LOVED him.

I also really liked Steph and Amanda. Both tough, tough women who held their own.

[IzzyBoy]

For Earl it was switching the vote to Edguardo because Alex had the HII idol. I loved his "well lets just vote Edguardo out...done and done" approach to that situation.

I like Earl too but switching the vote to Edguardo was Stacy's idea. What I like about Earl is that similar to Parvati he did a very good job of positioning himself within his alliance.

You're right, I completely forget it was originally Stacy's idea (because CBS won't release that season on DVD). Gotta give credit where credit's due on that one. Although I did correctly remember his attitude being that way at least! :)

ETA:

Was it because that idiot Dreamz spilled the beans TO Mookie, meaning that if Alex caught wind of the plan, he would slip the idol to Mookie instead, leaving Edgardo exposed no matter what?

Dreamz didn't tell Mookie but I think they voted for Edguardo just in case he did. I think they were also testing Dreamz's loyalty.

Yup, they were worried that Dreamz would blab their plans (I checked the recap on here). If I remember correctly, Mookie originally had the idol and gave it Alex. Dreamz thought they were going to vote for Mookie and they let him think that so he voted for Mookie. The rest voted for Edguardo which led to one of my favorite TCs ever.

ETA: Although I had who came up with the idea incorrect it indirectly lead me to another reason that Earl prevailed in a situation where Russell didn't. Earl had no problem giving credit to Stacy for coming up with that plan and the respect he gave others ended up paying off for him. You know Russell would've told everyone high and low that he came up it with all on his own.

Edited by IzzyBoy, Dec 21, 2009 @ 4:38 PM.

[Red Rabbit]

Best contestant ever?

Sure as hell isn't Russell!

Hatch invented the wheel, Heidik added the spokes, Yul was just fab in every way. Pavarti might even be in the running.

Edited by Red Rabbit, Dec 21, 2009 @ 5:02 PM.

[Mr. 888]

If I didn't see Parvati's game in Cook Islands, she'd place a lot higher on my fictitious winner's ranking. She was in a good position in her alliance in Raro, but she didn't have much of a shot at winning even if she made it to the end. She brushed off the idea that Yul had the HII ("He was only there, like, once!") and she injured herself while hacking at a coconut. When she won in Micronesia, it was partially because she was lucky there was a Final Two instead of a Final Three (where Cirie and even Amanda had a better shot at winning).

Earl and JT both won unanimously, so I assume they had to do SOMETHING right. Even the winners I hold in high esteem barely won (Hatch, Tina, Heidik, Yul).

[MrsRosencranz]

What? No love for Todd?

He had to deal with Courtney. Love him!!

[Lantern7]

Parvarti's win comes with a huge asterisk to me because she shouldn't have been cast as a "favorite." She was just another in a long line of CBS "all star" casting snafus that wound up lucking into $1 million. In her case, it was facing Amanda "The Closer" Kimmel.

And as much as I like Earl, I know that if Dre honors his promise to Yau Man, the outcome would be far, far different.

[raceguy120390]

Russhole's certainly in the running for Player With Greatest Delusions Of Adequacy, but he's not the best ever. 8-4 is the same position Aitu found themselves in after the mutiny, don't forget, so that's nothing that we haven't seen before. Looking at the votes that got Foa Foa into the majority, there's one where Galu is sure of keeping their clear majority, so it doesn't matter if they vote Erik out immedaitely after the merge. Then you've got the HII taking Kelly out (which, again, has been done before), followed by Shambo finally switching, resulting in the tie. Pissed off that the rest of Galu has no problems with going to PRoD, as opposed to anything Russhole and Foa Foa did, John switches, resulting in Laura's boot. With Shambo on their side, they're already up 5-4 by this point, and the rest of the season is moot. There's nothing beyond playing the HII to suggest that Russhole (as opposed to the entire Foa Foursome) is head and shoulders above anyone else in this season in terms of strategy.

And it's not as if players have never come into possession of a HII without themselves receiving an actual clue -- Gary and James both managed to accomplish this, technically, as did the Four Horsemen in Fiji.

[Mr. 888]

And as much as I like Earl, I know that if Dre honors his promise to Yau Man, the outcome would be far, far different.

True. I think it would have been a tough split between Earl and Yau-Man. I know the mock vote held during the reunion doesn't mean much, but I suspect that the majority of the horsemen would have voted for Earl over Yau-Man, too proud to admit that the elderly gentleman repeatedly handed them their asses.

And it's not as if players have never come into possession of a HII without themselves receiving an actual clue -- Gary and James both managed to accomplish this, technically, as did the Four Horsemen in Fiji.

Of all these, Gary's is the most impressive. He did it first, and he did it primarily by figuring out Judd was a liar. Russell had seasons of HII experience to go on. If Hatch gets credit for being the first winner, Gary should get some credit for being the first HII finder, notably without even being given a clue.

I really ragged on Todd when he won because he made plenty of mistakes had an inflated ego. But now that I've thought about it- his social game was great, better than what was shown on TV. He went to the finals with two people that the jury did not really connect with (save for Frosti canoodling with Courtney). All his strategic blunders and instances of good luck didn't matter once he reached the FTC. He played a good social game and convinced the jury he did, and if he didn't, he probably would have only gotten Jean-Robert's vote.

My two favorite winners are Yul and Earl. I can't qualify what "best" means quite yet, but I certainly know they are my favorites.

[Oholibamah]

I'm sure if we look at "best" it's the Tom/Earl/Yul/J.T. axis of charismatic, physically fit gentlemen who were universally revered and led their alliances to victory against the forces of evil, but I always find the cascade of Parvati's game the most enjoyable from a viewer's standpoint. The way she juggled alliances, chomped away used up allies like they were breakfast and helped the Black Widow Brigade take out their opposition like ducks in a row before turning around with her giant Jack-O-Lantern grin and asking for a million bucks was just delicious. There were absolutely holes in her game - Jonathan/Fairplay/Kathy's untimely exits, Cirie/Amanda being arguably better-positioned to win in a F3 scenario, gambling on Eliza, being a bitch in CI, not even deserving to be there - but they all made it just that much more fun and unexpected when she pulled out the win.

In terms of snark, personality and gametheory, Kelly G. and Brian C. will always top my list, despite getting nowhere near FTC, and I'd love to see what they could do without the paranoia of psychotic overgrown tattooed punk-kids or the switches, twists and turns that favored some of the least-likable players ever on Survivor.

[Helinski]

In my opinion, one of the better players who did not win was Tracy from Survivor Fans vs Favorites. She did not even make the merge, but I think she really got dealt with a very bad hand at the beginning of the game, and she did the best she could considering the circumstances. She had some pretty kickass persuasion skills, and she knows the right buttons to push to forge ahead.

Put her in any other tribes or seasons, she would have probably made it to the final four.

[Pandora3]

If you don't get into a heavy analysis, Tom Westman would be my pick. I agree with Lantern the guy was in control. Talking Ian into quitting proved he knew what buttons to push.

As far as picking the best player who DIDN'T win, that's a no-brainer: Cirie Fields

.

I'll second your motion. Her Jedi mind tricks were amazing. Knowing game theory is one thing, having the people skills to execute them is another.

Another factor for Cirie, which I think is rarely considered, is the actual surviving. She adjusted to her environment after figuring out leaves would not attack her. This sort of thing is a throwaway giggle moment for viewers but may be far more obvious to those who are playing the game---like when Erik stumped for, and voted "Ratalie." Then again, I'm not sure why someone would go on Survivor without ever having slept outdoors a single night to prepare. It must be quite a shock.

[D Moose]

For me, Yau edges Cirie in the best un-winner category, by a hair. Parvati should probably get a nod for "most improved" -- I'm in the camp that thinks she was masterful during FvF.

[Masem]

I'm going with Grey Fox Tom from Palau. His only fault was guilting Ian to quit the final challenge -- but knowing that Ian would have picked Katie over him (the easy victory) if he had won, its hard to get upset over him that much. He held the Kotor team strong, played all aspects of the game (challenges, survival, and social) quite well.

[rose3000]

If I didn't see Parvati's game in Cook Islands, she'd place a lot higher on my fictitious winner's ranking.

Me too, Mr. 888. I actually wound up really rooting for Parvati and loving her game play the second time around, but I had to overcome a big "Why is she here -- to flirt her way into 6th place again?" bias. But I think Parvati is a case of someone who initially went on the show for actorly-ambition reasons and then actually came to love the game. So I definitely have to give her mega-points for catching on and running the table in FvF. Parvati is one the few "evil" winners who played a cut-throat game but managed to win based on respect. In most cases, mean players only win if they bring someone worse with them to FTC. But Parvati played a surprisingly solid social game and then brought the perfect F2 partner with her in Amanda, who has perfected the trick of rolling over and playing dead at FTC.

I'll admit thought that I'm partial to winners who won the game by dominating socially. Everyone has to make strategic moves. But I just feel like the smarter players are the ones who manage to maintain relationships while still playing the game and keeping themselves from getting voted out (which necessarily involves a bit of lying and scheming, especially towards the end). So Earl and JT are high on my list. Yul unfortunately gets an asterisk because of the ridiculous HII rules that season. But you can't completely count him out because he played by the rules as they existed, and he played a great all-around game.

I'm not sure where I fall on Natalie yet. I do think she has to be put in contention by virtue of the fact that she outsmarted and outplayed someone who was constantly touted by many as the "Best Survivor Player Ever". But ultimately I think it will be hard to evaluate her game because we saw so little of it. What I saw was impressive on the social side. But it's really tough to evaluate her strategy because of "The Russell Show". Which is a shame, because I'd love to see a woman pull off a Yul/JT style game. But in order to do so you have to have strategic bona fides, and Nat's have a question mark due to her edit.

[Daydreamer101]

I'm going with Grey Fox Tom from Palau. His only fault was guilting Ian to quit the final challenge -- but knowing that Ian would have picked Katie over him (the easy victory) if he had won, its hard to get upset over him that much. He held the Kotor team strong, played all aspects of the game (challenges, survival, and social) quite well.

My main problem with Tom is not the final challenge but the way both Tom and Katie treated Ian after the F4 tribal council. Also Tom didn't even seem aware that Katie was going to switch sides to Gregg and Jen until Ian and Caryn told him at F6. I was rooting for Ian and still have no idea why he felt the need to jump off during that challenge.

What about Richard Hatch during Borneo? He brought together the Tagi alliance. I liked that he knew that winning the final IC would actually hurt his game because he couldn't take Rudy to F2 but would possibly lose Rudy's votes (and maybe other votes) if he won and broke their alliance by picking Kelly.

ETA:

Parvati is one the few "evil" winners who played a cut-throat game but managed to win based on respect.

Were we meant to see Parvati as "evil" because I didn't see her that way in Micronesia especially after she helped blindside her fellow Cook Islands tribemate Ozzy. That's one of the main reasons along with putting together the alliance that dominated that I was glad she won over Amanda.

Edited by Daydreamer101, Dec 22, 2009 @ 2:47 PM.

[rose3000]

I agree Parvati isn't evil. But she is one of the less-liked winners, and she's also a fairly contentious personality among people who played with her. She has a strong personality, and it can rub people the wrong way.

And in Micronesia, Parvati definitely got the evil mastermind edit. Remember the "Double double toil and trouble" moment with the women's alliance? That got hyped to the hilt. Often players who are willing to scheme and lie are painted as "bad". But of course, that's how you win. But then, this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Survivor. Of course you have to scheme and lie to win. But scheming and lying within the confines of the game doesn't make you evil. Especially if your scheming serves only the purpose of furthering your game. But some people (like Russell) think that scheming and lying is part and parcel with being a jerk. Others (like Amanda) are so afraid that their scheming and lying will make them look like a jerk that they run the other direction and pretend they're a saint.

The best winners, IMO, are the one's who make the moves necessary to get ahead, but never lose track of who they are or the fact that it is just a game, which helps them maintain perspective for the jury vote. I think Parvati did that in Micronesia. She relished playing the game, but she did it carefully. There were no unnecessary blindsides, and she was even careful to make a few allies with people she knew she'd be eliminating, in order to ensure she'd have friends on the jury.