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The Vampire Diaries So Far: Discuss the Whole Series Here


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#1351

wildling

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 4:29 PM

It's one of the things that bugs me about this show, Bonnie is faced with this guy who not only killed her mother, snapped the neck of her ex-boyfriend or caused her grandmother's death, but also killed/tried to kill several classmates and had his way with Caroline: In what kind of Universe would I sympathize with him over her?! And why would anybody expect me to do so? These stories are supposed to be good vs evil, not let evil do more evil scenario.

I believe the show does treat Bonnie like a slave, not only because former slave owners like Damon or Klaus boss her around but because people who call themselves her friends only use Bonnie to perform spells without any form of retribution, no matter how I try to spin this in my head only a slave works without payment, only people who think of Bonnie as a slave would keep using her without any "please" or "thank you" and only a story that would endorse such behavior would keep the slave on call to do her masters's bidding.

Makes me feel uncomfortable at best, completely alienates me at worst.

I am by far one of the people who do not like Bonnie, but I must agree on the way she is treated. I hated the way Damon treats Bonnie, but since they don't like each other it's acceptable up to a point. However in the episode the ties that bind, when Stefan wanted Bonnie and her mother to get the coffin open, the way he treated her and her mother was a WTF moment. He told her that she better. He did not bring them food ,and drinks to make them comfortable, nor was he nice. The thing that bother me was he never once said thanks you. It one thing for Damon, it been establish that he a dick, but Stefan too? Than Damon turned Bonnie's mother, yet neither Stefan,or Damon ever apologize for that, yet Stefan expect Bonnie to show up and be a part of their plan. WTF? no mention of what just happen? Just send a text message and expect Bonnie to show up?? WTF? ..I know Klaus is suppose to be the bad guy, but at least Klaus offer to find Bonnie's mother for her, ..of course he told Bonnie that he will bring her back in pieces if she didn't do the spell. But hey, he did offer her something.

I don't believe this has anything to do with the characters "liking" one another, or me liking/disliking what I see; for one Alaric is her teacher, he's supposed to be way beyond the petty teen drama and he treats Bonnie like Damon's slave all the same, Stefan and Elena are supposed to like Bonnie and I see them treating Bonnie like the family slave all the same, even Jeremy and that other J guy treat her like a pet slave ready to perform spells on demand, no wonder the bad guys feel entitled to use her when the good guys aren't as good to begin with.

As for Damon being a dick, I didn't say that first and, while I do believe there are all sorts of dicks in this world, he doesn't have to be a racist one on top of it.

Edited by wildling, Apr 6, 2012 @ 6:15 PM.

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#1352

Munchiewoman

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 7:34 PM

As for Damon being a dick, I didn't say that first and, while I do believe there are all sorts of dicks in this world, he doesn't have to be a racist one on top of it.


I understand the feeling that Damon (as well as everyone else) has treated Bonnie badly, I don't see how that makes him a racist. I really don't think there's been any indication he's a racist at all.

But then I really think that Bonnie's characterization (or glaring lack thereof) has more to do with the actress than anything. The same way I think Caroline went from annoying mean girl to awesome Vampire Barbie because Candice Accola inspired the writers to do more with her.

Edited by Munchiewoman, Apr 6, 2012 @ 7:35 PM.

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#1353

MissEm23

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 10:21 PM

Sorry, I don't think the writing surrounding Bonnie has anything to do with race. She's just a poorly written character who is used more as a plot device than an actual character. I can't stand her at all, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she's black. In fact, the slave connotation never even occurred to me until I just read it. They definitely do take advantage of her, but she lets them. It seems a lot more like the friend who can't say no that everyone takes for granted.
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#1354

luvprue1

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 11:20 PM

Sorry, I don't think the writing surrounding Bonnie has anything to do with race. She's just a poorly written character who is used more as a plot device than an actual character. I can't stand her at all, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she's black. In fact, the slave connotation never even occurred to me until I just read it. They definitely do take advantage of her, but she lets them. It seems a lot more like the friend who can't say no that everyone takes for granted.


o.k maybe Bonnie is poorly written. but why is that? How come they can write for everyone else but Bonnie. This season even Matt has a better storyline then Bonnie. Bonnie is the only character on the show who makes cameo in Bonnie -centric episodes. It's hard to believe that race do not play a part in it. Bonnie lives with her father, yet we do not even know his first,or last name. We know everyone else's care giver name. He should at least be mention. Bonnie mother was turn, yet we get Caroline telling Elena that Bonnie do not want to see her. Bonnie's mother is dealing with being a vampire, yet again we get great scene between Bonnie and Abby, hardly any between Bonnie and Abby. Jamie is suppose to be Bonnie's love interest (gross), but we are again treated to a great scene between Jamie and Caroline. ..and all he say to Bonnie , Yeah it me, the guy you are not related to. WTF?


If the writers feel that Katherine Gramham couldn't act, then they should fire her and hire someone else. Believe me if they felt that she couldn't act, she would not have been cast on the show. So we know she can act, and we know the writers can write. So the problem has to lie some place else. So the question is if Bonnie was a white actress, would the writers be able to write for her than?
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#1355

MissEm23

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 2:41 AM

Matt is white, and he hardly ever gets a storyline. Tyler is not black (not sure what he is), and he has been gone for several episodes. Jeremy is white, and he has been gone. Sometimes writers are just more connected to some characters than others. The series revolves around Damon, Stefan, and Elena. The rest of them are supporting characters who serve their purpose but often aren't fully developed.

Bonnie's dad's last name is Bennett, and we've been informed that he's normal and boring. She had her Grams, and now we know Abby exists, though Bonnie doesn't actually have her since she's a loser. We only know one of Matt's parents, and she was only in like 2 episodes because she's a loser too. Elena and Jeremy have no guardian to speak of, and Jenna was a pretty minor character. None of the other minor characters have very fleshed out back stories. That's why they are minor characters.

I have no idea why Kat wasn't in that many scenes in the episode that revolved around her. Race seems pretty low on the list of possibilities, though. She is the character who has all kinds of badass powers, who swoops in and saves the day. If the producers and writers were racist, why would they have cast her in that role to begin with? And don't EVEN suggest the slavery thing... That's just too absurd and controversial for me to entertain. It has never been remotely significant or even acknowledged that Bonnie is black. Elena went ballistic at the idea of her dying in season 2 because they've been best friends their entire lives. Yeah, Elena takes Bonnie for granted, but she definitely doesn't see her as inferior in any way. She was willing to sacrifice her own life to save Bonnie's.

Oh, and Julie Plec and the other powers-that-be on the show constantly rave about how much they love Kat.
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#1356

wildling

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 9:25 AM

I don't believe this has anything to do with the characters "liking" one another, or me liking/disliking what I see; for one Alaric is her teacher, he's supposed to be way beyond the petty teen drama and he treats Bonnie like Damon's slave all the same, Stefan and Elena are supposed to like Bonnie and I see them treating Bonnie like the family slave all the same, even Jeremy and that other J guy treat her like a pet slave ready to perform spells on demand, no wonder the bad guys feel entitled to use her when the good guys aren't as good to begin with.

As for Damon being a dick, I didn't say that first and, while I do believe there are all sorts of dicks in this world, he doesn't have to be a racist one on top of it.

I understand the feeling that Damon (as well as everyone else) has treated Bonnie badly, I don't see how that makes him a racist. I really don't think there's been any indication he's a racist at all.

As I understand it, we're all welcomed to disagree on the matter: I for one, believe that if anyone would've treated Damon the way he treated Bonnie, his first response would've been "I'm not your personal slave". Didn't Damon himself say the same thing to Katherine once? And while we're on the subject: Why is it okay for him to treat Bonnie the way Katherine treated him if there's no lost love between them anyway?

*ETA:

Oh, and Julie Plec and the other powers-that-be on the show constantly rave about how much they love Kat.

They also said the Originals's was the "year of the Cat" and Tyler was going to be featured this season, I'm just saying, words mean nothing without actual weight in the storyline.

Edited by wildling, Apr 7, 2012 @ 9:29 AM.

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#1357

MandaKeeks

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 10:54 AM

While I do not like the character of Bonnie, I absolutely love Kat Graham. My mind is a bit foggy due to ridiculous amounts of allergy meds, but a viable explanation for Bonnie's absence may due to her active career outside of TVD. She sings, dances, and I do not know if she designs clothes or is just really into fashion, but she could very well have asked for time off or to be shown a lot less as to pursue other options.

Michael Trevino is Mexican American.

Edited by MandaKeeks, Apr 7, 2012 @ 10:56 AM.

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#1358

sintin

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 12:05 PM

Kat Graham has gone on record several times that her work on TVD takes precedence over her singing career and other pursuits, and that she fits them in around TVD and not the other way around I find it pretty sad that the shoddy treatment of Bonnie's character is placed on Kat and not the writers own incompetence.

In fact, TVD's treatment of Bonnie and its other characters of color has worsened almost to the point of parody as the series has progressed, IMO. I felt the discovery of her powers in the first half of S1 to be handled very well, but as soon as Grams died and Bonnie was sent to Offscreenville, the character has been handled horribly. Now Bonnie is in this unfortunate, 'damn-if-she does, damned-if-she-doesn't rock and hard place regarding the use of her powers to aid or defeat the vampires as the plot calls. While logical character development and progression is something that this show is struggling with this season- Caroline's transformation in S2 vs. her not doing much this season comes to mind - I felt that the were still treated as characters, albeit characters whose motivations are not well developed. Bonnie is simply a walking plot device.

Edited by sintin, Apr 7, 2012 @ 12:06 PM.

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#1359

wildling

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 12:45 PM

I disagree Caroline was handled all that correctly either: they put her fangs and called it development, they had to make Klaus sympathetic and put her as love interest, they had to justify Alaric and they put her forgiving him. She's still a plot device, only instead to do magic, she does the sympathetic pun.

Edited by wildling, Apr 7, 2012 @ 1:01 PM.

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#1360

luvprue1

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 1:09 PM

Matt is white, and he hardly ever gets a storyline. Tyler is not black (not sure what he is), and he has been gone for several episodes. Jeremy is white, and he has been gone. Sometimes writers are just more connected to some characters than others. The series revolves around Damon, Stefan, and Elena. The rest of them are supporting characters who serve their purpose but often aren't fully developed.


Both Matt ,Tyler and Jeremy might be gone for some episode, but when they are on screen they are given interesting storylines that actual involved them. When ever Bonnie on screen it to do something for Elena,Damon ,or Stefan. It's never have to do with Bonnie. Tyler has the werewolf storyline with Jules,and his storyline with Caroline. Matt has his storyline involving his mother, his great storyline involving Liz,and his ghost storyline involving Viki.
Jeremy had his storyline involving Viki, his storyline with Anna,and with Tyler,and his ghost storyline. All interesting storyline involving the person. We got to see them as people,not as plot device. We got to see each of those character's life outside of a plot device. We also know their primary care giver , so we know where they lives and who is,or isn't taking care of them. We still haven't even heard the name of Bonnie's primary caregiver.

I have no idea why Kat wasn't in that many scenes in the episode that revolved around her. Race seems pretty low on the list of possibilities, though. She is the character who has all kinds of badass powers, who swoops in and saves the day. If the producers and writers were racist, why would they have cast her in that role to begin with? And don't EVEN suggest the slavery thing... That's just too absurd and controversial for me to entertain. It has never been remotely significant or even acknowledged that Bonnie is black. Elena went ballistic at the idea of her dying in season 2 because they've been best friends their entire lives. Yeah, Elena takes Bonnie for granted, but she definitely doesn't see her as inferior in any way. She was willing to sacrifice her own life to save Bonnie's.


A lot of shows cast people of color ( tokens so to speak) to show diversity, although they have no intention of actually involving the character. There is a lot of shows like that. Take a look at "The walking dead" . Kevin Smith( writer/producer of the walking dead) spoof the idea on his show. He has the black character on the show sit there and say one liners once in a while, but never be involve in the actual storyline. The character is always on the side line worry about their friends personal life, but never having one of their own. Similar to Bonnie.

Elena is suppose to be Bonnie best friend, but yet not once could she actual go over Bonnie's house? We never once seen Elena do something for Bonnie. Both Elena and Caroline had birthdays,and was given a party, but what about Bonnie? Can you name once nice things they did for Bonnie? a gift? a sleep over, something? They say that Bonnie and Elena are best friend,and we have to take their words for it, but it doesn't reflect in the show. Just because she cried when Bonnie died doesn't prove anything. How about showing concern when she couldn't get her best friend on the phone,and actually going over to her house, like she did when she couldn't get Damon and Stefan on the phone ( the episode in which she caught Damon with Rebecca), or show her being worry like she was when they couldn't find Damon ( who was taken by Klaus in the same episode Bonnie was taken) . But once again, Bonnie was missing and no one seem to notice.

They also said the Originals's was the "year of the Cat" and Tyler was going to be featured this season, I'm just saying, words mean nothing without actual weight in the storyline.


Exactly! If what they said was true than it would have reflect in the storyline they have given Bonnie. It's the little things that is added that bring the character to life. Yet they have added nothing to the character of Bonnie. She nothing more than a plot device that is use by Damon Stefan,and Elena.
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#1361

redbudrose

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 1:47 PM

They notice that Damon was missing, but no one, not one of Bonnie's many friends notice that she was missing.


No, they had shown Elena calling Bonnie and asking if anyone had heard from her, that she was getting worried.
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#1362

wildling

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 2:02 PM

A lot of shows cast people of color ( tokens so to speak) to show diversity, although they have no intention of actually involving the character. There is a lot of shows like that. Take a look at "The walking dead"

I might be wrong but: Isn't this the same show in which "Rose" was involved with a POC guy?

*ETA: It's not like the storyline broke the internet, but I still remember the buzz over her acting like she was never allowed to act on The Vampire Dairies or Supernatural before.

Edited by wildling, Apr 7, 2012 @ 2:04 PM.

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#1363

luvprue1

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 8:45 PM

I might be wrong but: Isn't this the same show in which "Rose" was involved with a POC guy?

*ETA: It's not like the storyline broke the internet, but I still remember the buzz over her acting like she was never allowed to act on The Vampire Dairies or Supernatural before.


Yes. Lauren Cohan now plays Maggie on "The Walking Dead". Yeah that was a lot of buzz but I guess that was because she a regular on the show,a main cast member. Instead of a guest star.

On the walking dead, the character of "T-Dog" is not given any lines,and hardly do anything. But at least Kevin Smith recognize this. The writers on the vampire diaries do not even acknowledge that there is a problem with Bonnie,that might look like racism.
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#1364

dragonfirelance

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 11:27 PM

On the whole, Damon treats Bonnie like a slave thing. He's a dick and he tries everyone he doesn't give care about like that, but why doesn't Bonnie give him a brain aneurysm and demand that he treats her with respect. He does with her the most, because to him, she's just a magic machine like before she was the witch I had to keep alive to get Katherine back, and he needs the most often. To me it's more problematic that Bonnie takes Damon's constant disrespect and utter lack of caring. Damon refuses to apologize for killing Bonnie's mother and makes jokes, Bonnie calls the Salvatore house immediately to get the rescue committee. I would have loved it if she said, "well according to him we don't owe each other anything. Also he really hates fire", and went home. When Stefan and Elena, figure out they can come save him.

This leads to the biggest problem with Bonnie, she is a plot device. Much of the racial issues come up, because she's a plot device. Everyone treats Bonnie like crap except for Caroline, Bonnie the magic machine doesn't care she's their to make calls and to do magic at command no questions asked. We need a spell to kill Mason, call Bonnie the magic machine, she won't ask questions like why are we killing him and what did you do [Damon]. The Originals need to live now, because Elena might die well then we have to break the magic machine for now, it's not like they'll be consequences just take it out of town to the shop for a couple weeks and it'll be as good as new. How does Bonnie feel about her mom's abandoment, well the magic machine told me [Caroline] that she really needs you right now. I mean her POV doesn't matter, because you can treat her like crap with no consequences. The viewers can't relate to her, because really how to you relate to a character who is a supporting character in her storyline about the awesomeness of Caroline, because Caroline's storyline had to be shelved so she could be Klaus's manic pixie dream vampire and Elena's biggest fangirl.

One of the biggest problems I've been having with this show is the lack of perspective of what they are writing. Bonnie's problem I've shown above. Then there's Elena being painted as a saint as she's deciding which serial killer she wants for a boyfriend and is completely cool with causing a vampire genocide. It is because she's willing to sacrifice those closest to her to save innmuerable human lives; since muderous vampires like the Originals, the Salvatore brothers, the tomb vampires, Katerina, and Sage seem to be the norm for vampires; nope. She just wants the Originals dead, so she's willing to spare the one Original line that made her own vampires.Two of which are serial killers and one of which is still actively killing people. The fact that this show thinks that any of these characters are heroes when every action is completely self-movitated and zero care is given to the collateral damage of those decisions. Well yeah Klaus wants to create a hybrid army and has killed and will kill thousands of people, but Tyler's our friend, who we couldn't bother to remember until his girlfriend brought it up. So in closing here's my problem with various characters/relationships.

Elena: Writers admit she has flaws, here I'll help. One incredibly hyprocritical look at how she treats her own brother for the highlights. Jeremy you can't have a evil vampire for a girlfriend it's unhealthy oh wait stay her while I contact a vampire ghost to put my evil vampire boyfriend through serial killer rehab. My free will must be respected Damon no vetoing my obviously stupid plans, now compel my brother to leave the state even though not having you compel him was the one thing specifically asked me not to do because he wants freedom to make his own choices. Also tell me how I'm best big sister ever for doing so. Two selfish, Damon, Stefan's back and he's doing everything I say just like before so you're in trouble for not listening and have to go away. Wait Damon why aren't you at my beckon call and instead sleeping with people I don't like you are horrible. I love the Salavatore brothers yeah their horrible serial killers, but they're really hot, and obessessively in love with me because of my evil twin, and do what I say most of the time. Three manipulative, her whole relationship with Damon, she treats him like her backup boyfriend just like Katherine did while telling him that she won't play with his emotions like Katherine did. Elijah saves her from his sister whose trying to kill her because Elena betrayed her and she immediately betrays him by trying to help his mother kill him. Now she's a teenager who did a couple of these thigns to save her life so it's not like these make her unrootable or even a bad person. She's brave, resourceful, determinded, and incredibly mentally strong considering she hasn't broken under the constant tradegy that is her life. Also intenstely loyal and caring to her people, even if at times treates them badly. You have a great main character, and the more you tell me she's perfect the less I like her.

Jeremy: See previous paragraph, and actually have him be mad with Elena not just immediately be ok with what she did and enable her.

Bonnie: Actually show her POV and have her storyline occur on screen and stop having other characters tell how she feels. Also let her stay mad at people like Damon, her mom, and have her start actually looking out for herself instead. Also give her her own goals for herself, taking out vampires, becoming a powerful witch, leaving the supernatural world all together, hunt down her mother and tell her off, something. Hell even if she dates the dude who her mother raised instead of her, have him be uneqviocally on her side and give her a goal.

Delena: Deal with the problems such as; Damon's refusal to stop killing people, Elena's stance on Damon at least not murdering people want for him to start caring about others, Elena still wavering over Damon and Stefan, Damon's refusal at being played like that again, and the fact that Damon has a love interest who actually solely wants him, won't change his lifestyle, who he has actually been more carefree around. Give me reasons and I'm sorry more than the other girl tortured him, they are vampires and as this show points out all the time our rules don't apply to them, plus Stefan's bestie tortured him for years.


[size="7"]LASTLY STOP WITH THE KILL ORIGINALS PLOTLINE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT.[/size]

Edited by dragonfirelance, Apr 8, 2012 @ 12:42 AM.

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#1365

wildling

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 11:25 AM

I might be wrong but: Isn't this the same show in which "Rose" was involved with a POC guy?

*ETA: It's not like the storyline broke the internet, but I still remember the buzz over her acting like she was never allowed to act on The Vampire Dairies or Supernatural before.

Yes. Lauren Cohan now plays Maggie on "The Walking Dead". Yeah that was a lot of buzz but I guess that was because she a regular on the show,a main cast member. Instead of a guest star.

On the walking dead, the character of "T-Dog" is not given any lines,and hardly do anything. But at least Kevin Smith recognize this. The writers on the vampire diaries do not even acknowledge that there is a problem with Bonnie,that might look like racism.

To me, the definition of a token character is the only POC in the whole cast, Bonnie being the only african american in the south would qualify, but a mute POC among The Walking Dead regulars aside the one dating Maggie (or the guy they stole from Jericho) doesn't.

Edited by wildling, Apr 8, 2012 @ 3:12 PM.

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#1366

zizou

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Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 2:32 PM

Damon's refusal to stop killing people


I think he stopped doing that a long time ago, back in S2 when he had is emo breakdown.

Edited by zizou, Apr 8, 2012 @ 2:33 PM.

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#1367

luvprue1

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 9:31 PM

In fact, TVD's treatment of Bonnie and its other characters of color has worsened almost to the point of parody as the series has progressed, IMO. I felt the discovery of her powers in the first half of S1 to be handled very well, but as soon as Grams died and Bonnie was sent to Offscreenville, the character has been handled horribly. Now Bonnie is in this unfortunate, 'damn-if-she does, damned-if-she-doesn't rock and hard place regarding the use of her powers to aid or defeat the vampires as the plot calls. While logical character development and progression is something that this show is struggling with this season- Caroline's transformation in S2 vs. her not doing much this season comes to mind - I felt that the were still treated as characters, albeit characters whose motivations are not well developed. Bonnie is simply a walking plot device.


I agree . I notice that while Elena got a birthday party thrown by Caroline and Damon since she had been through so much. Elena and Bonnie throw Caroline a birthday party because she been through so much...but no one has given, Bonnie one. Hasn't she been through a lot? isn't she suppose to be their best friend too? Bonnie have save the lives of all of them over and over again, yet no one thought to do anything nice for her. They are suppose to be best friends, yet when it comes to Bonnie it doesn't seem to reflect that at all.


Here's a article that talks about the problem with the show treatment of the character of Bonnie.




The Vampire Diaries Threatement of Bonnie Bennett

Edited by luvprue1, Apr 12, 2012 @ 8:38 PM.

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#1368

bm232

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 7:59 AM

Bringing this over from the Bonnie thread:

Other than forcing Bonnie to bend her will to comply the Salvatores's, The Vampire Dairies has no conflict methinks.


Actually, I think there's plenty of potential for conflict everywhere on the show, not just between Bonnie and the Salvatores+Elena, but between Most of The Other Kids vs. the Salvatores+Elena (and Caroline being caught in the middle as someone with ties and loyalties to both sides could be so interesting.) The problem is that the show always runs away from any possible conflict that really, deeply questions and challenges the Main 3 as the Decision Makers and the Dominant Voices of the Group, which is incredibly irritating because letting the group dynamic really split down the middle at this point would be completely natural and organic and could lead to some awesome SLs that would do ALL the characters good.
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#1369

wildling

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:38 PM

Bringing this over from the Bonnie thread too:

The thing is: I feel like I'm watching a Buffy remake in which Bonnie isn't allowed to slay vampires, much less have a coflict with them, she isn't allowed to compete with other demon hunters either, she isn't allowed to have a mentor/teacher and, most of all, she isn't allowed to interact with her werewolves, medium and vampires friends and that reduces the potential for conflict not only for Bonnie, but for the regulars as well.

If Buffy really existed to serve the plot of whoever vampire she was trying to defeat that's one thing, but I don't see any conflict in a bad soap opera with supernatural elements like The Vampire Diaries is to me. If I'm supposed to watch a supernatural teen drama, I don't see the drama in it and, if I'm supposed to watch teenage supernatural show, I think they dropped the ball a long time ago

I really don't like the idea I have to watch any other show to get a supernatural drama right (Teen Wolf, Being Human, Walking Dead, etc.) but most of all, I don't like the idea that my parents are watching better supernatural dramas out there because the CW doesn't know how to make one for me.

Edited by wildling, Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:44 PM.

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#1370

luvprue1

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 4:37 PM

Actually, I think there's plenty of potential for conflict everywhere on the show, not just between Bonnie and the Salvatores+Elena, but between Most of The Other Kids vs. the Salvatores+Elena (and Caroline being caught in the middle as someone with ties and loyalties to both sides could be so interesting.) The problem is that the show always runs away from any possible conflict that really, deeply questions and challenges the Main 3 as the Decision Makers and the Dominant Voices of the Group, which is incredibly irritating because letting the group dynamic really split down the middle at this point would be completely natural and organic and could lead to some awesome SLs that would do ALL the characters good.



I agree. Which is why I do not view Bonnie as a character but more as a plot device. They had a lot of opportunities to write a great story plot for Bonnie, but they tends to shy away from it.
In season 1, there was a mid season cliffhanger in which Bonnie had betrayed Elena by not dispelling the Gilbert device. Everyone was speculating on what was going to happen once the show return. But how did the show deal with Bonnie's betrayal? What was the fallout? Nothing happen. Bonnie wound up a hero, but no one mention that she betrayed Elena,and indirectly cause Anna being capture.

In season 2 they had build up the whole Bonnie vs-Klaus fight. Bonnie was missing for most of the season, ( and all that time where she was suppose to be dead, her father didn't call,nor was it mention him worrying about her.) Klaus had a witch working on his side which people was speculating a Greta and Bonnie show down,and looking forward to the big fight between Klaus and Bonnie. But what was we given instead? Nothing. Greta was already dead by the time Bonnie got there,and as for her big fight with Klaus it was over in a matter of a second because Klaus was save by Elijah.

In season 3 they brought in Bonnie's mother who abandon her when she was a child. People was speculating why she left. Some people suggest that she might have been a evil witch who did dark magic,or one of her spells hurt someone,and they was specultion how Bonnie will react to her. However when she did show up, we found out she left protecting Elena ( Lame) there is no real mention on why she didn't return for Bonnie. No mention of why she never called,or contacted Bonnie. actually they never had a real conversation on screen about it. What we are treated to is Abby and Bonnie working for Damon and Stefan. So Bonnie spent her time with her long lost mother held up in a cave trying to open a coffin for Stefan and Damon who do not give a crap about her.
Bonnie's mother is turn, we get Caroline telling Elena how Bonnie feel instead of Bonnie telling us herself.
Jamie is suppose to be Bonnie's love interest, but instead of getting a heartfill scene between him and Bonnie discussing Abby, we instead get him and Caroline discussing Abby. Why is that? ( I dislike the character of Jamie so much, but I do not mind him too much since I know he brought in for vamp food)

They had a lot of time where I felt that they could have wrote a potential great story for Bonnie if they really wanted to. Like her scene with Klaus in "the murder of one". Klaus point out how Bonnie do so much for her friends, but is not apprecated . Klaus show a little sympathy for Bonnie,and they could have had Bonnie start to sympathize with Klaus, which could lead to Bonnie working with Klaus, and turning to the dark side. ..or at least have her struggle with the idea of joining Klaus.
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#1371

wildling

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:20 PM

They had a lot of time where I felt that they could have wrote a potential great story for Bonnie if they really wanted to.

Lets say they don't want to [write a potential great story for Bonnie, that is], how does that explain lack of Tyler screentime, to use Jeremy only so Damon has a neck to break or Caroline whenever they try to make another vampires look sympathetic because that's not good material the way I understand it, that's not even good conflict the way I understand it.

Edited by wildling, Apr 12, 2012 @ 6:21 PM.

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#1372

MissEm23

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 10:25 PM

Lets say they don't want to [write a potential great story for Bonnie, that is], how does that explain lack of Tyler screentime, to use Jeremy only so Damon has a neck to break or Caroline whenever they try to make another vampires look sympathetic because that's not good material the way I understand it, that's not even good conflict the way I understand it.



Because they're minor characters. We only get parts of their stories when they intersect with the main characters. A show can't have 10 main characters with fully developed stories. The show is about Damon, Elena, and Stefan, so yeah, the other characters only get screen time when they are needed to develop the story of the main 3. That's what minor characters are for in every TV show, movie, book, etc.
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#1373

wildling

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 10:35 PM

Lets say they don't want to [write a potential great story for Bonnie, that is], how does that explain lack of Tyler screentime, to use Jeremy only so Damon has a neck to break or Caroline whenever they try to make another vampires look sympathetic because that's not good material the way I understand it, that's not even good conflict the way I understand it.

Because they're minor characters. We only get parts of their stories when they intersect with the main characters. A show can't have 10 main characters with fully developed stories.

That excuse hasn't fly since Lost & Heroes methinks, either this is a two men show like Supernatural (with Elena has the glorified Bobby) or they start to act like modern day showrunners and actually use the characters/plots available.

...because this is the only supernatural show I know that doesn't do that.

Edited by wildling, Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:01 PM.

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#1374

Bitterswete

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:37 PM

I'll start by saying if I stop making sense, it's the pain meds. Which aren't even totally working, but that's another story.

Because they're minor characters. We only get parts of their stories when they intersect with the main characters. A show can't have 10 main characters with fully developed stories.

That excuse hasn't fly since Lost & Heroes methinks,

I'd say since the 80s. Since then, there have been so many shows with ensemble casts (some bigger than TVDs) in which all of the characters were well-developed. The fact that TVD hasn't done it isn't because developing that many characters is impossible. It's because either a) they've chosen not to, or b) they don't have the chops to pull it off.

Maybe a combination of the two.

Also, Tyler, Matt, Bonnie, etc. aren't minor characters. A minor character is the bartender at the Grille who never talks and will probably only appear in one episode. Bonnie and company are secondary characters (like Willow, Xander and Giles on Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and part of the main ensemble cast. Or at least they're supposed to be. And compared to how most of the shows I'm thinking of handled their secondary cast, TVD has pretty much failed in this department.
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#1375

NickyJean

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 4:31 AM

I'd say since the 80s. Since then, there have been so many shows with ensemble casts (some bigger than TVDs) in which all of the characters were well-developed. The fact that TVD hasn't done it isn't because developing that many characters is impossible. It's because either a) they've chosen not to, or b) they don't have the chops to pull it off.


Also, Tyler, Matt, Bonnie, etc. aren't minor characters. A minor character is the bartender at the Grille who never talks and will probably only appear in one episode. Bonnie and company are secondary characters (like Willow, Xander and Giles on Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and part of the main ensemble cast. Or at least they're supposed to be. And compared to how most of the shows I'm thinking of handled their secondary cast, TVD has pretty much failed in this department.


I couldn't agree more. It's one of the reason I truly believed that Damon was killing cool awesome people like Lexi and Mason. They knew having them in the show would have been too much to handle so lets make Damon look awesome and kill'em. Ok maybe that is too cynical, but what about the character development we could see from Tyler trying to control his wolf. Some moments between Caroline and her Mom, or even the Mayor who misses her son. Maybe even the Mayon and Caroline trying to get more information on the werewolf. I mean we saw Esther and know how Vamps came to be. What about the Werewolves are they maybe natures protectors with a price to pay once a month for their gifts. I mean if they walk like a skinwalker and shift like a skin walker why not.
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#1376

MissEm23

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 5:45 PM

TVD isn't supposed to be an ensemble cast, though. I guess I should have said "supporting characters" or "secondary characters" rather than minor characters. The point is that the writers choose not to fill out their stories because the show isn't about them. I actually think they do a pretty good job of giving depth to all of the secondary characters. They can't all have major story arcs going at once because that wouldn't leave time for the main plot of the show.

Matt had the fiasco with his mom, then the deal with ghost-Viki, then he conspired with Sheriff Forbes about Caroline being a vampire, and now he is the only one who has killed an Original. He's also an essential part of the canon of the show because he's the only truly normal human left in Elena's life. He represents the alternative future that she could choose, without vampires. I love that they have been giving more attention to him, especially his relationship with Elena.

Caroline dated Damon in S1, then got turned and had an arc from that, and she has been a huge part of Tyler's journey as a werewolf. We get some pretty good interactions between her and her mom. She had a few episodes of interaction with her torture-loving dad. We've been a little light on girlfriends scenes with her, Bonnie, and Elena lately, but we used to get them pretty regularly. Now the big bad of the past 1.5 seasons is obsessed with her.

We've met both of Tyler's parents and his uncle. He had a major storyline about his transformation into a werewolf and a fairly significant storyline when he became a hybrid, exploring the sire bond, etc. He has been gone for a few episodes, but he is supposedly going to have a lot of good stuff next season.

Bonnie had multiple storylines in S1-- learning to be a witch, interacting with her Grams, losing her Grams, her friendships with Caroline and Elena. In S2, she had lots of spell-related storylines and two different love interests. She has been a little more peripheral this season, but storylines ebb and flow. The next few episodes look very Bonnie-heavy, even aside from the witchy parts-- like her reaction to Jeremy coming back, her new man, etc.

Jeremy has had 3 fairly intense love interests, which is actually a little weird considering the show's timeline. He was important during S1 when they were developing the show's mythology-- as he was learning it from Anna. He was involved with Bonnie's progression as a witch. He has had the whole ghost storyline. He's also a really important part of Elena's character and her decisions.

Alaric is obviously a very well developed character. I don't feel the need to elaborate because he has been pretty integral in the entire series and is getting a lot of great stuff this season.

We've even gotten a lot of background on Rebekah and a lot of insight into her feelings. Klaus is obviously pretty thoroughly developed. I could always use more Elijah, but that's because I just adore Daniel Gillies (curse the new medical drama that is stealing him away). Katherine has always been very important in the show's canon, but I wouldn't object to modern-day Katherine being around more.

My point is that at any time in the series, you could point to a couple of the secondary characters and say that they are being underused. But they have all had significant storylines at one point or another. They ebb and flow as their stories intersect with the main story of Elena, Damon, and Stefan. 42 minutes is just not enough time to always know what every character is doing.

Also, if you don't like the way the show is written, why do you still watch it? Since all of you are obviously very invested in the show, the writers must be doing something right. I get peeved at some of the writers' decisions now and then, but overall, they do a fantastic job. Why else would I be so obsessed with the show?
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#1377

wildling

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 5:52 PM

Because they're minor characters. We only get parts of their stories when they intersect with the main characters. A show can't have 10 main characters with fully developed stories.

That excuse hasn't fly since Lost & Heroes methinks, either this is a two men show like Supernatural (with Elena has the glorified Bobby) or they start to act like modern day showrunners and actually use the characters/plots available.

...because this is the only supernatural show I know that doesn't do that.

I'd say since the 80s. Since then, there have been so many shows with ensemble casts (some bigger than TVDs) in which all of the characters were well-developed. The fact that TVD hasn't done it isn't because developing that many characters is impossible. It's because either a) they've chosen not to, or b) they don't have the chops to pull it off.

Maybe a combination of the two.

Also, Tyler, Matt, Bonnie, etc. aren't minor characters. A minor character is the bartender at the Grille who never talks and will probably only appear in one episode. Bonnie and company are secondary characters (like Willow, Xander and Giles on Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and part of the main ensemble cast. Or at least they're supposed to be. And compared to how most of the shows I'm thinking of handled their secondary cast, TVD has pretty much failed in this department.

I couldn't agree more, if no show from The Walking Dead to Teen Wolf treats its ensamble as minor characters - and I assume no old show from Buffy to Lost did the same thing - then this is no excuse for The Vampire Diaries. Much less when Damon & Stefan themselves aren't developed beyond their "undying love" for the doppleganger in town as well.

*ETA:

Also, if you don't like the way the show is written, why do you still watch it?

I'm confused: What makes you believe I'm still watching this thing?! Especially when I can't figure out why would anyone still watch this myself.

Edited by wildling, Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:01 PM.

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#1378

MissEm23

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 10:36 PM

I didn't realize it was such a leap to assume that people posting regularly on Vampire Diaries message boards would actually watch Vampire Diaries. My bad. If you don't watch, why should you even have an opinion?
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#1379

Bitterswete

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:05 AM

TVD isn't supposed to be an ensemble cast, though. I guess I should have said "supporting characters" or "secondary characters" rather than minor characters. The point is that the writers choose not to fill out their stories because the show isn't about them.


A character doesn't have to be the star of a show in order to be developed and fleshed out.

As for the writers choosing not to develop the secondary characters, that's very true. And I see that as a flaw and a weakness in the writing. A show that cared more about writing and characters would've taken time to flesh out the secondary cast. TVD has just turned out not to be one of those shows.

I actually think they do a pretty good job of giving depth to all of the secondary characters.


I don't think they've developed any of the characters all that well, including the three leads. Elena, Stefan and Damon might get more screentime, but that doesn't equal more depth.

They can't all have major story arcs going at once because that wouldn't leave time for the main plot of the show.


I just can't buy this because way too many shows have managed to pull it off. I can make a list of shows that managed to develop their main and secondary characters while also managing to have a great main plot. Why can't TVD?

Also, never said all of the characters had to have major arcs at the same time, because that's not how ensemble shows tend to work. Instead, each character takes turns getting the spotlight, either for an arc or an episode.

My point is that at any time in the series, you could point to a couple of the secondary characters and say that they are being underused. But they have all had significant storylines at one point or another.


A lost of stuff has happened to the characters over the seasons. But that's not character development. Character development is how that external stuff is used to explore and develop the characters. Which TVD doesn't really do.

For example, Bonnie losing her powers was an amazing opportunity for some character development. Yet nothing came out of it.

With Tyler, they had an opportunity to show him coming to terms with being a werewolf. Only they sent him away to do it offscreen.

Jeremy killed someone. Great opportunity for some character exploration. But they sent him away too.

And I can list dozens of missed opportunities for all of the characters, including the leads.

Basically, this show has demonstrated, time and again, that they don't care about developing the characters. In fact, they avoid it as much as possible, choosing instead to focus on plot twists and melodrama.

Since all of you are obviously very invested in the show, the writers must be doing something right.

Me continuing to watch a show I'm dissatisfied with rarely has anything to do with the writing. It usually means watching the show has become a habit. And that I enjoyed the show a lot at some point, and I'm hoping things will get better so I can start enjoying it that much again.

But habit only goes so far. I've actually missed an episode or two this season, and wasn't all that broken up over it. And whether or not I will watch a new episode has become something of a toss-up. Which usually means I'm just on the cusp of quitting completely.

It's a shame because this show had so much potential, and was must-see for me in season one.
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#1380

TWoP Howard

TWoP Howard

    TWoP Moderator

Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:06 AM

wildling and MissEm23, all posters are required to read the rules of the site and to follow them. I’m assuming that despite that requirement, you haven’t yet, because otherwise you wouldn’t be breaking rules about manners and respect and derailing the thread as you have for most of this page. This is a discussion site, where we value differing opinions, rather than demanding "proof" or calling people out or telling them how to post or watch the show. This may not be the site for you if you are not comfortable with that. Save the sarcasm and the analysis for the show. It’s never acceptable to aim it at another poster as you both have been doing.

However, someone who stopped watching the show a while back is only repeating opinions formed seasons ago, so I don’t see that as adding value to a discussion of the show as it currently is. In fact, it can come across as trolling (note that I’m not talking about missing an episode here or there).

Edited by TWoP Howard, Apr 16, 2012 @ 12:11 AM.