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Michael, Raphael, and the other Angelic Characters


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#1

TWoP Tennison

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 7:28 AM

Here's a thread for discussing angelic/Heavenly characters that don't have their own threads.

Edited by TWoP Tennison, Oct 28, 2009 @ 5:28 PM.


#2

patty1h

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 10:05 AM

I wonder how Michael will take Dean as his vessel. Will he just jump into him when the time comes for him to battle Lucifer, or will he appear before Dean and speak to him/ask permission? Will Michael make it clear his use of Dean's body will probably kill Dean.

Do you think Michael will come alone for 'the big battle' or will he bring backup, like other heavenly hosts?
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#3

Tableau

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 11:29 AM

Since the guy who was possessed by Raphael was practically a vegetable, I can't see Kripke and co doing that to Dean in the future.
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#4

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 12:49 PM

Since Dean's entire existence is about sacrifice, I can see a point where he will say 'yes' to Michael - if Michael is even around to say yes to (remains to be seen - it's a little frustrating right now).

And because I also agree that Kripke would be roasted alive by the fan base if he ever left Dean permanently harmed, I suspect God will come into it after the Big Battle, slap around his errant angelic children, reward Castiel for his unwavering loyalty, and restore Dean for his sacrifice (and perhaps restore all those who gave permission for the angels to inhabit them - except for Jimmy who is already dead).
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#5

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 1:21 PM

Ha! Leave it to Kripke to make God his ultimate deus ex machina.

I'm also definitely ready to hear more about Michael. It would actually be a nice surprise if he turned out not to be the biggest dick of all. Not holding my breath on that one though.

Edited by chickk, Oct 26, 2009 @ 1:46 PM.

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#6

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 3:53 PM

Since the guy who was possessed by Raphael was practically a vegetable, I can't see Kripke and co doing that to Dean in the future.

And because I also agree that Kripke would be roasted alive by the fan base if he ever left Dean permanently harmed

I'm not sure that it's that much of an impossibility for Michael to inhabit Dean show-wise. Crazier things have happened on television. X-Files lost Mulder and Scully at some point, Angel traded in Fred for Illyria and got rid of Cordelia altogether. I mean, the show is going to finish up either this year or next, and they've said that next year they were starting a new storyline. It's as good an excuse as any to give Jensen more (and different) work to do.

If they do go the route of Michael taking over Dean, it might not be permanent, people have been raised from the dead on the show, I'm pretty sure healing people from comas is a bit less involved on the supernatural scale. Or, it could be another time-share situation like with Jimmy. We're not exactly sure what kind of damage is occurring to angelic vessels or how, so it's possible that while the angel is inhabiting the vessel, the host is still functional. Maybe it's only when they've left the body, that the host suffers the ill effects of possession, much like how demons can keep a host (like Meg) together until they leave (leaving and entering a vessel seems to be the most traumatic part of the process, at least if we're judging by special effects).

From what Castiel said to Jimmy though, Dean's looking at a possible "life" of immortality while Michael's riding him, some parts he will probably be at least somewhat conscious for. As for Raphael's vessel, sure he was in a vegetative state, but this was while Raphael wasn't in him. I don't know why the hell he'd leave his vessel lying around helpless like that (unless he's not that picky about who he's inhabiting like Michael and Castiel), but maybe Donnie was still conscious/aware but unable to use his own body anymore.

Now I'm not entirely advocating a Lord of the Rings Smeagle/Gollum situation, just saying that it would be fun seeing Jensen do two roles again.
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#7

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 7:28 PM

Ha! Leave it to Kripke to make God his ultimate deus ex machina.


Hee. Ultimate meta inside joke -- maybe Kripke should cast himself as God.
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#8

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 7:55 PM

I think it is significant that Michael has not contacted Dean. Lucifer has spoken with Nick and Sam. Castiel spoke with Jimmy.

I believe Michael has not spoken to Dean, because I think Dean is Michael.

I know it has been speculated for a couple of seasons now, but with Kripke the most obvious choice is probably the correct one. Many people guessed that Sam was being set-up as Lucifer's meatsuit for a while before it was revealed on the show.

I speculate that if Dean says "Yes" to Michael, it will be the trigger for him to remember who he really is.

I think Michael was sent to earth years ago as a sleeper agent for Heaven, when Lucifer's plan was coming into shape.

Michael's mission would have been to get close to Sam to prevent him from becoming Lucifer's vessel or in the worse case scenario to fight Lucifer on earth.

It has been made pretty clear that Castiel is pretty low on the angelic totem pole, so he would not be aware of this secret plan.
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#9

Ann Tara

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 8:28 PM

I believe Michael has not spoken to Dean, because I think Dean is Michael.


This would be a fascinating twist on the mythology we've seen so far and certainly would provide an explanation as to why we have not heard anything from Michael yet. Right now everything is pretty cut and dried - the angel must circle his/her vessel, make contact in some way, ask permission, gain permission. Even Lucifer is bound by these rules, and has a couple vessels in the wings (Nick and Sam). Why wouldn't Michael have the same, being every bit as powerful, it not more powerful, than Lucifer? If he cannot contact Dean yet, wouldn't he too, being at the top of the angelic totem pole, have a back-up somewhere? Seems likely. And yet, we haven't seen it or heard about it, and the rest of the angelic corps don't seem to know of another vessel. If they did, I think they'd be pursuing that angle temporarily, until they could coerce Dean into submission. Right now I have the impression that none of the angels we've seen so far have even heard from Michael themselves. I think they just assume he's out there somewhere.

While I agree that Cas is just a grunt and wouldn't be privy to that kind of insider information, at this point I don't believe any of the others do either. Right now Zach et. al. don't even know if God is still around. So if God has gone into hiding, for whatever reason that has yet to be revealed, it's possible that He would have opted to also hide his ultimate weapon in the dna of a human, or a human bloodline, where the other angels couldn't find him either (or would even think to look) - again, for reasons that are unknown to us.

So the idea of Dean as a sort of sleeper agent is a fascinating one, and at least would give us a good reason as to why this guy can't seem to stay dead. LOL! I mean, just to imagine Zachariah's gut-wrenching realization of how badly he screwed things up in not knowing the truth would be worth the price of admission alone. ;)

Edited by Ann Tara, Oct 26, 2009 @ 8:30 PM.

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#10

chickk

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Posted Oct 26, 2009 @ 11:29 PM

caro and Ann Tara This has been my speculation too for a while now. It does fit now and since the whole vessel things was revealed so early this season, there has to be some other big twist coming. Dean actually being Michael would make total sense and would also explain the need for Anna's grace-in-a-tree-oops-no-in-bottle storyline.
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#11

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 2:34 AM

I mean, just to imagine Zachariah's gut-wrenching realization of how badly he screwed things up in not knowing the truth would be worth the price of admission alone. ;)

This alone would make it worth it. I'd love to see Zach's face when/if he finds out he tortured God's top angel.

The idea of Dean being Michael is fascinating. I'm not sure Kripke would go there with Dean, but it would add a nice twist, and clear up a lot of mysteries about Dean.
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#12

mobiusklein

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 8:59 AM

I'd be curious to see how changing into Michael changes Dean since Anna's personality changed quite a bit when she realized who she really was. Also, I can't imagine Michael staying on Earth after blowing his cover.

I imagine Castiel and Sam being gobsmacked and sad.

Then I end up imagining Becky going "No way!"
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#13

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 9:39 AM

I'd be curious to see how changing into Michael changes Dean since Anna's personality changed quite a bit when she realized who she really was. Also, I can't imagine Michael staying on Earth after blowing his cover.

I think this aspect of that storyline is actually the only part that worries me about a Dean-as-Michael reveal. However, I'm not actually sure there is too much reason to worry about this because the basics of Dean are pretty much the basics of Michael: devotion to his father and a complete badass on the battlefield. The rest of it could be filled in by the writers to make the merge believable. Anna never seemed too attached to her human life, especially once her parents had died, so I'm not sure she's a good barometer for knowing how human angels would react getting all those memories and such. Dean is really attached to his human life, so I cold see him getting the reveal and incorporating that information then coming to the conclusion that he wants to stay and fight with Sam and all his other fellow hunters. No one will make me buy that any version of Dean would abandon Sam and go off to party with the other angels in Heaven. I really cannot see Dean (or Michael or Dean-as-Michael) wanting to take up any hobbies that include sitting on his ass in Heaven while there's baddies to be fought on the Earthly plane (or whatever).

All I know is this: Dean-as-Michael probably means he'll be wielding a flaming sword at some point. I am SO in with that idea.
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#14

Ann Tara

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 11:16 AM

You know, I like all this speculation about Michael - who he is, where he is, what he really thinks about what the other angels have brought about (was Michael in on it, out of the loop, long gone for millennia) and, of course, how Dean fits in? But it's also frustrating because, except for a few throw-away lines about Dean as Michael's vessel, we've received nothing concrete about the other half of the Lucifer equation that should be every bit as important to the ultimate outcome.

My feelings gravitate as to whether the writers have a definitive plan that will be revealed in the second half of the season - or whether they honestly don't know yet what, if anything, they're going to do with the character of Michael. Knowing nothing certainly makes for a lot of interesting speculative conversation, but at the same time, I sometimes feel like maybe the writers aren't quite as on top of their game as I gave them credit for at the beginning of the season. I guess the last two weaker episodes have made me a little more anxious than I would have been three episodes ago.
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#15

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 12:12 PM

All I know is this: Dean-as-Michael probably means he'll be wielding a flaming sword at some point. I am SO in with that idea.

Oh. My. God. Yes.

My feelings gravitate as to whether the writers have a definitive plan that will be revealed in the second half of the season - or whether they honestly don't know yet what, if anything, they're going to do with the character of Michael. Knowing nothing certainly makes for a lot of interesting speculative conversation, but at the same time, I sometimes feel like maybe the writers aren't quite as on top of their game as I gave them credit for at the beginning of the season. I guess the last two weaker episodes have made me a little more anxious than I would have been three episodes ago.

Yeah the Michael stuff is the most interesting to me too right now because we still know so little about it and the writers could go anywhere with it. Unlike the Lucifer stuff which, by it's very nature, kind of has to be predictable. But I too am nervous after the disappointing way they have resolved several storylines lately, so I don't want to get my expectations up again. However, I do hope that we will get something more on Michael before the wintre hiatus.

Edited by chickk, Oct 27, 2009 @ 12:13 PM.

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#16

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 12:15 PM

I'm hoping it turns out Michael wasn't on board or even aware that the rest of angel management was starting the Apocalypse. He was off with God or doing God's work and returns to find Lucifer free, the Apocalypse started and himself boxed into a corner and obligated to stop it. I'd like to see a pissed off, sword-wielding Michael going after Lucifer and then Zach and his cohorts. I hope Michael finds himself another vessel because I'd like to see him interacting with Dean and working with him.
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#17

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 1:01 PM

I believe Michael has not spoken to Dean, because I think Dean is Michael.

I hope not. I like Dean as 100% human, 100% of his existence. And I think that revealing one of the two main characters is in fact a reborn angel would work against Kripke's "Humanity is best" theme.
And I am so, so not down with any more super mega-specialness reveals about how crucial the boys are. At this point it's just redundant.

I think it's more likely that the angels don't know where Michael is any more than they know where to find God. I think Zachariah is trying to get Dean's consent partially to draw Michael out so that he can get the battle started according to the prophecy.

I'm okay with never hearing about Michael because the symbolism of him works well enough for me - Michael coming to Earth is akin to dropping a meteor on the dinosaurs and therefore a Big Deal. (Seriously, if he did the whole lost grace thing I'd expect a brand new rainforest to pop up overnight complete with natural species that live there.) It gives Dean something to fight against and this time, it is a battle of wills and I'm all for that.
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#18

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 1:38 PM

I'm okay with never hearing about Michael because the symbolism of him works well enough for me - Michael coming to Earth is akin to dropping a meteor on the dinosaurs and therefore a Big Deal.


I'd agree and would have been totally on board with nothing more than the symbolic theory/threat of Michael if the same had been done with Lucifer, the other half of the Big Deal equation. But we already have Luci walking around in one meatsuit incarnation, and have seen a potential future in the other meatsuit, so the story is completely imbalanced if they don't find some way to bring in Michael for an appearance, if only a joint cameo with God.

ETA: Plus, there's that whole story-telling adage about introducing a gun in the first act that had better come into play by the third act. In this case, the writers themselves introduced that Michael Sword (the gun) right in the first act - the season premiere. Now it's up to the writers to put up or shut up on this point before the last act plays out.

I think it's more likely that the angels don't know where Michael is any more than they know where to find God. I think Zachariah is trying to get Dean's consent partially to draw Michael out so that he can get the battle started according to the prophecy.


On this point I completely agree, I don't think Zach et. al. have a clue right now. They're completely floundering, which is what makes them all such dicks, I think.

Edited by Ann Tara, Oct 27, 2009 @ 1:59 PM.

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#19

luluanne

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 1:57 PM

Hmm, I agree that the idea of Dean as Michael is interesting, and would make sense in many ways, but I don't think it's the way they're going. They've taken such care over the course of the series to set up Dean as the entirely human (entirely too human sometimes!) half of the Winchester duo; as a sort of Everyman fighting evil without any sort of special powers or abilities in contrast to his darkside-battling-brother who must fight something very non-human inside himself. I can't see them taking a hard right turn on this at the end and tell us that, no, he's never been human at all. He's an angel.

Also, I agree with Gwonk: this is such a humanist show that I can't see this Apocalyptic battle ending any other way than with Dean and Sam fighting for humanity as themselves, rejecting Lucifer and Michael both. (Although I have to admit to some curiousity as to how Kripke will manage to sell their presumed victory in any sort of believable way given the titanic mismatch.)

And lastly, Dean did die and get his ass dragged to hell. I can't see the forces of hell being able to drag Michael down there, unless he were willing, and certainly Alastair wouldn't have been able to break Michael and turn him into a torturer, again unless he were willing, and I can't see why he would be willing. Unless for some reason God wanted the first seal broken.

Oh, but I do agree with Ann Tara: now that Michael's been mentioned as such a prominent player in the whole thing, and now that we've seen his counterpart, Lucifer, The Rule of Chekhov's Gun says we have to see Michael at some point! Hear that, Kripke??

Edited by luluanne, Oct 27, 2009 @ 1:59 PM.

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#20

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 1:59 PM

I have to agree, Dean as Michael would pretty much ruin the character for me. And yes, the whole vesselage-deal is bad enough - no more 'special' Winchesters please.

Since Kripke is so fond of his literary symmetry I'm pretty sure we'll get to see Michael at one point. I think his absence so far is one of the most intriguing aspects of this season. Is he out partying with God? Is he sulking in a corner because Dean does not love him? Is he just too blasť to show up? Is he busy doing laundry?
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#21

mobiusklein

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 2:16 PM

As for where Michael's grace is, suppose Castiel is Michael's grace? He's the only angel we've seen actually worth a damn so maybe God split him in 2, one sleeper agent for Heaven and one for Earth. Ok, a nutty theory since I don't know where it went but it would explain why they're kind of pulled towards each other. Of course, it would then turn the series into a story about Dean and Castiel literally being two halves of one whole, though.
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#22

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 2:29 PM

As for where Michael's grace is, suppose Castiel is Michael's grace?

Nowhere near strong enough. Castiel is also over 2000 years old (he comments the last time he was on Earth was around then) so... no.
I've always wondered whether angels could be "made" or not. The show seemed to imply their numbers were limited which is one of the few canon angel facts I like - demons you can make plenty of but an angel's death is a serious thing.

I wouldn't mind seeing Michael to be honest, but I also don't want him to be "nice." He's effectively God's sword and so a soldier mentality would work better than him being heroic or aiding SamnDean. Which isn't to say that I want him to be a bad guy a la Zachariah or anything, just that I don't want him to be looking out for the good of humanity as much as fulfilling the Will of God, which could be saving humanity or just as easily letting lose the dogs of war.
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#23

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 2:44 PM

I want Michael to be badass but he doesn't need to be a complete dick. There are far too many dicks on this show already. The angels are dicks. The demons are dicks and most of the hunters are dicks. And Lucifer may come on all gentle-voiced but I'm assuming he's supposed to be the king of all dicks. At this point, I would welcome a little less dickishness and a little more variety in characterization.
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#24

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 3:15 PM

I mean, just to imagine Zachariah's gut-wrenching realization of how badly he screwed things up in not knowing the truth would be worth the price of admission alone. ;)

This alone would make it worth it. I'd love to see Zach's face when/if he finds out he tortured God's top angel.


This would be awesome. Zach would piss his pants. The Dean/Michael smackdown would be legendary. Somebody needs to write this fic immediately.

And I think that revealing one of the two main characters is in fact a reborn angel would work against Kripke's "Humanity is best" theme.


I thought "Family is best" was his theme of the week? ;)

At this point, I would welcome a little less dickishness and a little more variety in characterization.


Amen, and hallelujah, but I'm not holding my breath.
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#25

norrell

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 3:56 PM

And I think that revealing one of the two main characters is in fact a reborn angel would work against Kripke's "Humanity is best" theme.

Didn't Kripke already go against that by making Sam with powers? If "Humanity is best" does this only apply to Dean and Sam still needs to use powers to fight evil? I'm confused here.
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#26

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 4:14 PM

Didn't Kripke already go against that by making Sam with powers? If "Humanity is best" does this only apply to Dean and Sam still needs to use powers to fight evil? I'm confused here.

Sam's powers ended up helping to break the final seal, just as Dean making a deal with a devil led to the breaking of the first seal.

It's only when they fight and use human means (their brains, their free will to say 'no' to being angelic vessels, a manmade gun) that things go right with them.

Not too inconsistent.

At this point, I would welcome a little less dickishness and a little more variety in characterization.

Agreed too. I got bored with demons when they all turned out to be snarktastic so Alastair was a thrill. I MISS ALASTAIR!!
I'm a little on the fence with angels though, just because where demons are chaos embodied, angels have this whole order and lockstep thing. So I enjoy seeing different angels but if they act like humans, some of the "Otherness" goes away.
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#27

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 4:29 PM

I want Michael to be badass but he doesn't need to be a complete dick. There are far too many dicks on this show already. The angels are dicks. The demons are dicks and most of the hunters are dicks. And Lucifer may come on all gentle-voiced but I'm assuming he's supposed to be the king of all dicks. At this point, I would welcome a little less dickishness and a little more variety in characterization.


Yahtzee. It just looks plain unimaginative if this is all they can come up with.

We are talking about the supposed Viceroy of Heaven here, whose name, Michael, was the war cry of the heavenly host when they fought against Satan. Not just the baddest of the badasses, but a real source of sustenance as well, an angel of justice and mercy.

I'd hate to see that sort of complex creature reduced to "dick" like the rest of them. Michael wasn't "just another angel" even in Heaven. He was there to help even when others didn't appear(Book of Daniel) and he would stand fast to the end.


They've taken such care over the course of the series to set up Dean as the entirely human (entirely too human sometimes!) half of the Winchester duo;


As writers they might think, wouldn't that make it all the more dramatic it turned out there was more there than everyone thought? It would be a very dramatic thing for Dean to deal with. I don't know that I love the idea but dramatically it does make a kind of sense.

I like it better than that stupid Colt, which I wish they'd find out was melted down and diluted into infinity. What was great about it at first was that there was a limited number of bullets, never to be re-forged, then all of sudden, apparently that's not a problem.

Dean + Flaming Swords = AWESOME though. I'd prefer he get to wield that Flaming Sword as a human - that as the Righteous Man who broke the First Seal, he'd be the only human who could.

I like to think Michael hasn't talked to Dean because he is SO not on board with Zach's plans. Michael's been off with God doing important Grown Up Angel work, while the rest of the "I Was a Teenage Archangels" decided to misbehave.

I think if Michael wanted Dean to say yes right now, Michael would be talking to Dean himself.

Edited by coruscant, Oct 27, 2009 @ 4:42 PM.

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#28

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 9:08 PM

I believe Michael has not spoken to Dean, because I think Dean is Michael.

I imagine Castiel and Sam being gobsmacked and sad.

I think Castiel in particular would be terribly disappointed if Dean turned out to be his brother angel Michael.
Castiel's not so shy anymore and I can see him grabbing Dean/Michael by the shoulder and demanding to know where he's been while angels have been dying to contain Hell on earth.
I don't know how I could reconcile Castiel not being able to recognise of fellow angel and I couldn't buy Michael having amnesia all these years. Now that Lucifer's walking free, what's taking him so long to handle the situation?
Sam? I think he'd be angry that God planted the biggest badassed angelic babysitter possible with him yet didn't care enough to subvert Azazael's plans for him.

Edited by Blackmantra53, Oct 27, 2009 @ 9:15 PM.

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#29

mobiusklein

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Posted Oct 27, 2009 @ 9:55 PM

True, but I think they'd have to realize that Dean-Michael didn't have an easy time of it either, spending 30 years being tortured, 10 years torturing in Hell. Also, I think that in a sense, Dean becoming Michael might be like the Dean they knew being dead and this new person shows up. It's almost like vesseling in a sense except a part of who you are remains.

I do think the "Where the hell were you?" is a good question about where he was prior to becoming Dean because I do think that I'd ask the same question if I were Castiel. It's a worthy question that should be answered honestly. I don't want Michael to have left because he had Anna-like desires but because he was either ordered to by God (and Castiel knows how hard it is to disobey) or that he had to do something covertly he couldn't do openly.

I can't help wondering if Michael ended up leaving because he feared being assassinated. Sure he's powerful but I'm wondering if the remaining archangels AND their minions got it in their heads to confront him as a group if he'd survive (I'm thinking getting whacked Julius Caesar-style). From little we've seen of the other angels, there seems to be widespread discontent. I wonder that as powerful as he was, how long he could've kept them from acting out. Basically, I want him to have a damn good reason.

As for Sam's reaction, hmm. I think it depends on how he thought of it. Would he think of Dean-Michael as a fellow pawn or would he think of him like the other angels?

I think it would be interestingly complex because I could understand them wondering what part of "Dean" would be real and what part would be "construct." And it would be uber-tragic and utterly depressing if Dean-Michael went into battle against Lucifer if the two people "Dean" cared about rejected Dean-Michael prior to it.

That said, this will probably go under "fun thought experiment" than becoming show canon.

Edited by mobiusklein, Oct 27, 2009 @ 10:01 PM.

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#30

sallybreeze

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Posted Oct 28, 2009 @ 1:46 AM

Count me in as one of those that do not want to see Michael end up being another dick with wings ( and I just had to type that and give myself that visual again...eww.) I love Zachariah, but I was happy to see Raphael had a little more behind his motives than just wanting to get his war on. Right now Michael keeps my curiosity peeked as to his whereabouts. I think a lot more about where he is than I do MIA God. Michael is sort of an abstract character on this show already. I can't see the show not having him appear or having him being an asshole without it being a waste of everyone's time.

I have to agree, Dean as Michael would pretty much ruin the character for me. And yes, the whole vesselage-deal is bad enough - no more 'special' Winchesters please.

It would be complete character assassination for me as well. I don't want to lose human Dean forever. And once you pull out the Dean is an Angel card, there would be no going back. How would the biggest badass of the Heavenly Hosts go back to driving an Impala, living out of dinky motel rooms, cultivating a relationship with one human brother, developing a friendship with a grunt Angel, and taking it one tiny battle at time to save one at a time? I just don't think Dean as Michael could. And if Michael did chose to be a human Dean, it would take away from Michael's place in the story as well.
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