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ESPN's 30 For 30


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#271

bulldawgtownie

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Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 1:38 PM

After rewatching the one on the Fab Five I understand Jalen Rose's comments about black players who go to Duke and specifically Grant Hill. What I didn't get the first time I saw the documentary is that Rose said and felt that way out of resentment and envy. Grant Hill had the things and life that Rose wanted but didn't get so he lashed out at Hill. It doesn't make anything ok but at least now I understand.
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#272

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 1:38 PM

I thought everyone missed Rose's point when I watched the doc. People forget that like Hill, Rose has a pro athlete for a father, someone who could have provided a better life for his son. But he didn't. I don't think they ever met face-to-face before Jimmy Walker's death.

So when Rose saw Hill and his parents living a life he had dreamed about, he was angry and resentful. However, it wasn't toward Hill so much as his specific situation. He was an 18/19-year-old kid trying to grasp why he and his mother had it so hard when it could have been avoided simply by Walker paying child support a few times a year. Hill was the physical representation of Rose's pain, and I thought he did a good job of explaining that. But apparently not, as the fall-out from it got pretty heated.

If anyone had real reason to be upset at the FF, it was Christian Laettner. Because they went into him pretty deep with what they thought of him at the time. But as I always saw Laettner as a jerk, the commentary about him didn't bother me as much, LOL!
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#273

bulldawgtownie

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 12:09 PM

Yeah, I'm a Duke fan but I've seen enough of Laettner's interviews and documentaries concering those early 90's teams to make me think he is a serious prick. Still I thought it was funny that the fab five thought he was overrated and soft, etc until they actually played Duke and then they had to admit that Laettner had game.
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#274

UnfamousLoser

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Posted Sep 27, 2012 @ 10:47 PM

Bumping this up because "30 for 30 Volume 2" of this series is starting on October 2, 2012.

First up is Broke, about athletes who go broke. Given Vince Young's recent troubles, this one is timely.

Edited by UnfamousLoser, Sep 27, 2012 @ 10:48 PM.

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#275

bulldawgtownie

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Posted Sep 28, 2012 @ 12:02 PM

I wouldn't exactly call it timely, for various reasons pro athletes have been going broke long before any of us were born. Even ones who made enough money to be "set for life". For example it's a little talked about "secret" that Kareem Abdul Jabaar played so long because late in his career his accountant stole all of his money and so he pretty much HAD to keep playing. And nowadys a number of athletes end up broke within a year or two after retiring because they can't maintain the lavish lifestyles they've been living when they were bringing in the big paychecks.
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#276

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Posted Oct 2, 2012 @ 11:30 PM

I enjoyed "Broke". The editing was too quick for my tastes, but I thought the progression of themes to explain why guys spend a lot of money was really interesting. While I knew that some of the guys interviewed had done well (Jamaal Mashburn), I thought it was clever that they held the reveal until the end. Because successful or broke, all of the players told the same stories about being in an environment where they felt the pressure to spend more money than they had.
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#277

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 3:01 AM

I enjoyed Broke, too. I found it entertaining, yet insightful. I think it would have benefited from better editing and organization. I also would have liked to have heard more specifics about what caused the players' bankruptcies. The pitfalls were very broad. There is certainly no shortage of subjects but it's too bad the director had a hard time getting people to talk. It would've been great to have Tyson, LT, Holyfield, or some other marquee athletes. It was nice to see Sean Salisbury, I haven't seen him since he left ESPN. Pretty sad he is announcing for lingerie football...
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#278

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 10:50 AM

I missed the end of "Broke." What was the great reveal at the end that xaxat is hinting at? I was curious who was broke out of all of those... my money would be on Bernie Kosar (who looked high), McCants, and Rison, but not Mashburn. He always seemed level headed.
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#279

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 11:59 AM

I think it was that Andre Rison was going back to Michigan State. That and they had a long list of pro athletes that had declared bankruptcy. The one I thought was interesting on that list was Harmon Killebrew. It was interesting but the one thing I didn't like was the mention of Michael Jordan's divorce settlement. They played the pre-nup card. Jordan and Juanita married I believe in college. That was long before we knew he would become possibly the best bball player of all time. They had talked about how women attach themselves to these players for the money which I know is true. (Read up on Dirk Nowitzki) I just didn't think that part was fair to Juanita Jordan. There is no way she could have known the phenomenon that was His Airness was coming. JMHO and ymmv.

The Bernie Kosar story was sad. Basically, his father screwed him over money wise. He gave his dad his signing bonus not knowing the Browns had already cut his dad a check. I thought he said a million dollars. Sadly, Bernie was always trying to please his father. He felt guilty. I was struck b/c he called it Catholic guilt and having gone to Catholic school from K-12 I understood what he was saying. I'm guessing as a child his home life wasn't particularly pleasant.

Need to add that I totally agree that these young men and women who come straight from college or high school are ill prepared to take care of their money. Some are extremely poor and have no idea how to handle money. They are overwhelmed and let people they know take care of their money. Often times they are taken advantage of and those people don't know squat about money. Not to mention the people who are just leeches acting as friends. I liked the end scene of the meeting between some athletes and investors laughing about some of the ridiculous ideas that were pitched to them. The one that said and I'm paraphrasing, "Are you kidding me a deal involving drugs. What am I stupid?" I also liked Herm Edwards. He spoke the truth quite well and in a tone that should make those players pay attention. Sadly, I think they are young and think it is boring rather than a huge life and life changing/saving lesson.

Edited by natalie wood, Oct 3, 2012 @ 2:45 PM.

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#280

OaklandGirl

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 12:32 PM

It was interesting but the one thing I didn't like was the mention of Michael Jordan's divorce settlement. They played the pre-nup card. Jordan and Juanita married I believe in college. That was long before we knew he would become possibly the best bball player of all time.

Actually, no. Jordan and Juanita married in Vegas in 1989, after she threatened to sue him for palimony and child support. Basically, she forced his hand. He couldn't continue to be a rising Nike endorser with an out of wedlock child, so he married her, shut her up, and took on the family man image... thus raising his profile and fattening his wallets (and hers).

She was a notorious athlete-troller, too... "allegedly." She was 29 or 30 years old when she met Jordan, and he was about 4-5 years younger than her. Jordan wasn't her first baller, either. She knew what she was doing. She is probably Vanessa Bryant's role model. lol

Edited by OaklandGirl, Oct 3, 2012 @ 12:33 PM.

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#281

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 12:46 PM

Thanks for the info OaklandGirl. I thought I had read they met in college and married. So I guess that was her MO after all. I find it incredibly sad. I can't imagine being married as long as they were and being unhappy. That is a long ass time. My grandmother always said, " Money won't buy you happiness but you sure can cry in comfort." She was one very wise woman.

Edited by natalie wood, Oct 3, 2012 @ 12:49 PM.

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#282

Trainwreck jm

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 1:56 PM

I didn't think much of "Broke." This is a story that has gained a lot of steam in the last few years with a lot of articles written on it ("Broke" showed some of them) and if you've read those stories this doc added absolutely nothing. In fact, the points it hit seemed lifted from those some of those earlier articles. If this isn't a story you've followed then this isn't a problem for you, but I think a documentary should at least attempt to add some new information or insight. This one didn't.

The flashy graphics and quick editing, I felt, distracted from the the subject matter, almost glamorizing the flame-outs of the athletes ("glamorizing" might not be the right word... trivializing? whatever.) I suppose all the flash was designed to evoke the environment they were living in and the mind-set they held, but I think it would have been more appropriate and effective for this post-mortem to be more sober.
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#283

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 3:55 PM

I felt sorry for athletes who lost money do to failed businesses or trusting the wrong people. American Greed is filled with stories like that. I have no sympathy for athletes who don't pay child support. You chose to sleep with these women without using protection so you have to live with the consequences. I refuse to believe that these men are so weak that they can't say no to a woman.
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#284

xaxat

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 7:56 PM

OaklandGirl, I was referring to the fact that during the show they didn't identify which of their primary interview subjects had money and which were broke. The guys who had money had pretty much the same story and experiences of those that didn't. It was only after that your realized some of them had managed to avoid bankruptcy.

I felt sorry for athletes who lost money do to failed businesses or trusting the wrong people.


I felt really bad for Bernie Kosar. It appears that a lot of his problem stemmed from a pretty messed up relationship with his father. That's not really the kind of thing two hours listening to Herm Edwards can fix.
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#285

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 11:08 PM

He couldn't continue to be a rising Nike endorser with an out of wedlock child, so he married her, shut her up, and took on the family man image... thus raising his profile and fattening his wallets (and hers).


Although much has been said about Jordan's philandering, I don't think he ever really wanted to marry Juanita. I'm sure he loved her, but I don't think he was looking to settle down at that point in his life and only married to avoid the taboo of having an illegitimate kid. If he were in the same situation in this day and age she would never have progressed past baby mama status.

Overall I thought the documentary was good, but I agree with the comments about the too-quick editing. I wish they'd made the interview segments a little longer and maybe cut down on the number of guys they featured.

Most of the NFL guys featured played long enough to qualify for a pension, so they at least have something coming in. However it's a far cry from rolling in dough and being able to buy whatever you want. What screws most of these guys over is the fact that they have so many kids by so many different women. That's a hell of a lot of child support to pay.
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#286

OaklandGirl

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Posted Oct 3, 2012 @ 11:48 PM

Although much has been said about Jordan's philandering, I don't think he ever really wanted to marry Juanita. I'm sure he loved her, but I don't think he was looking to settle down at that point in his life and only married to avoid the taboo of having an illegitimate kid.

This is exactly how it happened from what I hear. He didn't want to marry her, but felt backed into a corner and didn't want to be sued or looked at as a rolling stone, so he made an honest woman out of her.

What screws most of these guys over is the fact that they have so many kids by so many different women. That's a hell of a lot of child support to pay.

When they showed that one guy (played for the Tenn. Titans, I think?) who had 9 kids by 9 different women... Lawd! How do you manage to not strap up with that many women without having the fear of God, AIDS, herpes or whatever else, let alone a baby?
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#287

UnfamousLoser

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Posted Oct 5, 2012 @ 4:40 PM

When they showed that one guy (played for the Tenn. Titans, I think?) who had 9 kids by 9 different women

Travis Henry. He currently has 11 children by 10 women. He's serving three years in prison for distributing cocaine.

I liked Broke. If you read the Sports Illustrated article and other previous articles on athletes going broke this wasn't particularly new, but I thought it was still interesting and pulled all these sad stories together. I liked that they included some ex-athletes, like Jamal Mashburn, who were wise about their money and have flourished in their post-professional sports lives.
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#288

UnfamousLoser

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Posted Oct 14, 2012 @ 8:35 PM

9.79*. The Ben Johnson stripped of his gold medal at the 1988 Seoul Olympics because of a positive drug test episode.

This one was solid. I like how they showed after all this time there's still a cloud of doubt over many of the racers. And all of the espionage involved (some of the drug tests from the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics "disappeared;" some suspect results were shredded on purpose). I liked the ending, where we see many of the former racers other than Ben Johnson that were banned from the sport temporarily or permanently for drug violations.
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#289

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Posted Oct 15, 2012 @ 12:43 AM

UnfamousLoser, I liked that as well. Carl Lewis can bitch all he wants, but the bottom line is they were all doping. The doctor in charge of the drug screenings even said the testing methods in the 80's couldn't pick up nearly as many illegal substances as they can today. So athletes were simply hip to the game and knew which steroids wouldn't be detected in their system.

I'm not saying I condone what Johnson did, but for years he was a pariah only for it to come out later that practically everyone on the US team was doing the same stuff.
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#290

bulldawgtownie

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Posted Oct 15, 2012 @ 2:03 PM

I never knew how widespread it had been. And my feelings about Carl Lewis have changed somewhat knowing that he was most likely doing it too.

What was really funny was their criticism of other runners who were caught and the hypocrisy about their own failed drug tests.

I understand the former head of the IOC'S drug testing deciding to stop testing all of the old tests but I wish he had gone through with it.
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#291

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Posted Oct 15, 2012 @ 10:17 PM

I understand the former head of the IOC'S drug testing deciding to stop testing all of the old tests but I wish he had gone through with it.


Me too. You can tell he wanted to, but he was probably politically savvy enough to know the damage exposing this kind of dirty laundry would do to his own career.
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#292

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Posted Oct 19, 2012 @ 11:11 AM

I loved this week's 30 for 30. It was so cool to see the relationship between Kansas and North Carolina. I was really happy when Kansas was able to make the highest bid. My kiddo loves bball and applied to Kansas. It made me wish that was where he had chosen to go. If you love college basketball this one is worth your time. It sure shows how devoted some fans are to their teams. It was amazing the lengths that Jayhawk fan was willing to go through for that Naismith document. That was a hell of a lot of money for a paper about basketball.
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#293

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Posted Oct 23, 2012 @ 11:18 PM

I thought Benji was heart wrenching tonight. I couldn't believe the hospital refused to treat him. It was nice to see that Benji's son seemed to do well despite not having his father growing up.
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#294

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Posted Oct 31, 2012 @ 3:24 PM

What did you guys think of "Ghosts of Ole Miss?"

I'm a 39 year old white chick from Central New York so my perspective is naturally skewed but I was fascinated and puzzled at the same time. Fascinated because I'll never ever understand how humans can treat other humans that way but puzzled because I feel like Wright Thompson wanted the story told but it seems like it really had a tangential link to the football team but they needed the sports angle to get it on 30 for 30. It was really well done though.
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#295

bulldawgtownie

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Posted Nov 3, 2012 @ 12:51 PM

As a black male who's spent most of his life living in the south I had mixed emotions watching The Ghosts of Ole Miss especially since the highscool I graduated from was also nicknamed the rebels and we had a "Colonel Reb(el)" mascot. A very important thing the film briefly touched on but largely left out is there is a MAJOR disconnect between things like the confederate flag,"Dixie", "The South will rise again" chant and slavery for a number of white people in the south. There is even a semi-wide spread belief down here that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery and was all about state's rights and their independence(to be fair my frame of reference is from the 90's so although I know that theory is still around, I don't know how popular or well known it is nowadays). I know that a lot of people not from the south assume southerns who believe that are racists and extremely ignorant but in my experience although some are the vast majority aren't but I'm starting to digress.

My point is the south's past regarding race is very complicated (as is all of America's past especially when it comes to how various groups of people have been treated) as illustrated by the film's narrater believing he had relatives who were involved in the '62 riot and although he feels strongly against the confederate flag being part of the state's flag(BTW Georgia also incorporated it into its state flag) he also loves "Dixie" being played at Ole Miss. games despite knowing how that song makes most black people feel. Overall, I liked the film, it wasn't easy to watch, but I much prefer that than watching some sanitized, romanticized version of history that never existed. I also enjoyed getting some insight from James Meredith.

Edited by bulldawgtownie, Nov 3, 2012 @ 2:43 PM.

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#296

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Posted Nov 5, 2012 @ 8:08 PM

natalie wood, the episode about Naismith's rules was A-W-F-U-L. The whole setup was a bullshit lie. The guys from Hang Up and Listen break it down in this podcast

kathyk2 I think it was that the hospital Benji was taken to didn't have a trauma center, not that he wasn't treated. It was interesting getting the point of view of one of his killers, though the whole 'he was punkin me so I just HAD to shoot and kill him! I HAD TOO!! Otherwise word would spread that he be punkin' me and I'd never get into college!!!" was beyond lame.

Ghosts of Old Miss was fairly good, although it didn't touch on Meredith's mental issues and I agree that the connection to the football team was tenuous at best.

But it did bring to my mind an idea for what I think would be a good 30 for 30 episode, that being the behind the scenes story of how Bear Bryant deliberately scheduled a game against an integrated USC team to be played at Alabama, knowing that Alabama would get the shit beaten out of them by USC's integrated squad as a way of arguing for integrating SEC football which succeeded on all levels.
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#297

bulldawgtownie

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Posted Nov 6, 2012 @ 3:56 PM

But it did bring to my mind an idea for what I think would be a good 30 for 30 episode, that being the behind the scenes story of how Bear Bryant deliberately scheduled a game against an integrated USC team to be played at Alabama, knowing that Alabama would get the shit beaten out of them by USC's integrated squad as a way of arguing for integrating SEC football which succeeded on all levels

I've already seen a couple of documtaries on Bear Bryant that talked about that so I can't see ESPN wanting to devote a 30 for 30 on it. BTW the SEC had already started integration and he already had a black football player who was scheduled to join Alabama the following year watching the game. So I think it was Bear's way of preparing people for what was going to happen and why.
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#298

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Posted Nov 12, 2012 @ 6:02 AM

I finally got a chance to see Broke, I liked it and found it both sad and interesting that despite being the only major professional athletes without guaranteed contracts, having the shortest "careers", and playing the most physically gruelling sports(which leaves them with the biggest medical costs post-"career") NFL players are the ones who show off their money more than the other pro athletes.

Keith McCants is considered one of the biggest busts in NFL history but I really felt sorry for him. 29 surgeries and a drug problem, that's tough. I also suspect we'll hear about his having brain trauma due to concussions one day. He seemed broken in so many ways.

If this isn't a story you've followed then this isn't a problem for you, but I think a documentary should at least attempt to add some new information or insight. This one didn't

I have to disagree. Although this problem doesn't directly affect me doesn't mean I shouldn't or don't care. And although I hadn't read the Sports Illustrated article that doesn't mean I'm not interested in this topic.
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#299

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 2:20 PM

I adore Bo Jackson and loved his story in "You Don't Know Bo."

The cartoons, on the other hand...no. The director tried to defend them on twitter by saying there were't young pictures of Bo which is fine but what they did with the animation didn't have to be so lame.

I loved the video of Bo climbing the wall in KC and his diving catches. They were so right, what Bo did was still almost mythological even when you saw it happen.
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#300

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 2:26 PM

Obviously mileage varies but I loved, "You Don't Know Bo." I remember those awesome commercials. He was one amazing athlete. It makes me wonder how much he would have a accomplished and I mean would not could. He was a freakin athletic machine. The sad thing is this morning I was watching a morning news show and one of the panelists talked about the great Earl Cambell. He sat next to him on a plane and said his hands looked awful and he could barely walk. He was in a wheelchair (something I already knew) but it made me think that maybe Bo's injury turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Still, seeing the clips of him playing baseball and football just WOW! Oh, and I now officially hate the TB Buccaneers.

Edited by natalie wood, Dec 9, 2012 @ 2:27 PM.

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