399 replies to this topic

[acsenray]

TwopMars has approved the creation of a thread on suspicions that particular uses of language are anachronistic for the early 1960s. I'll start off by listing some that I can remember being mentioned in other threads:

- I'm in a good place right now (Peggy)

- Blowjob (Roger)

- Grammatical errors, such as: Your welcome (the hitchhikers' note)

- being on the same page (Roger)

I suppose we could also include suspected non-verbal cultural anachronisms, such as

- The assertion that no teacher would have behaved like Suzanne did towards Don

- The role of the older woman in the Junior League and Betty's ability to be appointed secretary

- Carlton's running at the track

My initial impression on most of these assertions is that 1963 wasn't that different from today in terms of informal language and in terms of misbehavior that people might have engaged in with each other. Certain phrases and situations might have been relatively rarer or have slightly different connotations, but generally speaking, except for terms relating to new technologies and truly new cultural phenomena (like Hip-Hop). However, for a lot of these issues, the answer might very well be "People have been saying/doing these things for far longer than you might assume."

Other things, like the Junior League issues, might be resulting from incomplete information. We aren't told outright what the older woman's role is in the Junior League or how much time Betty has actually contributed to the group over the years, so there's some ambiguity

One thing that I think might be slightly inaccurate, or exaggerated, if not an anachronism, is the over-formal, over-precise enunciation of some of the characters, particularly Pete. I think we have an idea that people spoke more formally, enunciating every sound, but I think that might be a false idea when it came to ordinary conversation.

I think I've spotted what might be considered a visual anachronism -- In the pilot episode when Joan uncovers Peggy's IBM typewriter with a flourish -- it doesn't look like a new typewriter; it has the scuffmarks of a 40 year old machine!

Anyway, I hope that's good for a kickoff.

[Mod Suit]

I think a lot of it comes because those of us who didn't live in that era tend to base our ideas of how it was on the movies and pop culture of the times, which were not always accurate (and, especially in the early 60s, much more heavily censored--married people sleeping in seperate beds, etc.)

[EleanorAquitain]

ascenray, I agree that many of the things that are being tagged as too modern really aren't. Language use does change over time, of course, but many of the phrases we use today were used back then.

[Kestrel]

I am glad this thread was approved because I am a word geek--and more annoying yet, a word geek with a subscription to the Oxford English Dictionary Online through my work.

However, for a lot of these issues, the answer might very well be "People have been saying/doing these things for far longer than you might assume."

This has often been what I've discovered. acsenray is correct in stating that while many words such as those relating to technology are of more recent coinage, many other words and idiomatic phrases have been kicking around for quite awhile. A case in point: someone in the most recent episode thread misremembered Peggy's line to Pete about infecting her with his anxiety as "unloading your emotional baggage." Although the quote was subsequently corrected, I was interested and looked up the word baggage and found this definition: "Beliefs, knowledge, experiences, or habits conceived of as something one carries around.... Freq. with modifying word, as cultural baggage, emotional baggage, intellectual baggage, etc." with usages of "intellectual baggage" dating back to 1886(!) and "cultural baggage" dating to 1967. So although Peggy didn't actually say "emotional baggage" to Pete, it's possible she could have; however, I imagine it would sound jarring to many viewers.

And maybe that is really the issue. If a word or phrase was in use at that time but has a "modern" ring to it, will it prove to be distracting to too many viewers to justify its inclusion? I'm sure the last thing the writers want is for half the audience to be pulled out of the moment, thinking "Now that doesn't sound like something they'd say in 1963!" whether they're right or not.

ETA that just because I'm a word geek does not mean I catch all my typos!

Edited by Kestrel, Sep 30, 2009 @ 10:53 AM.

[EleanorAquitain]

It seems to be the idioms ("hang in there") and slang phrases that some assume are modern. I am not sure why that is but that has been my general observation.

[Dev F]

A good source for determining whether a phrase is actually anachronistic is Google Books. Just plug in the phrase in question and set the search to return content published between an arbitrary start date and January 1964. There'll be a few bogus entries where it's a more recent publication but the database has the wrong pub date, but if the phrase is legit, eventually you'll find a verifiable use. (For instance, I checked the phrase "emotional baggage" and learned that Ian Fleming used it in Casino Royale in 1954, in a very frequently quoted passage in which James Bond disparages wimminfolk: "On a job they got in the way and fogged things up with sex and hurt feelings and all the emotional baggage they carried around.")

[mialoubug]

About the Junior League thing: we don't know, as others have said, that Betty hasn't been a Jr. Leaguer all along. Given that she has been in Ossining since at least pregnant with Sally, the likeliehood that she's been involved for years is high. However, it must be noticed by other members that the Drapers are very, very wealthy, even by others standards, and having the wife of a very wealthy man on your team -- and in a leadership position -- can be really helpful when trying to makes an impact on an issue (such as the water treatment plant). Plus Betty is friends with Francie, who is leaving the post, who knows a lot about the Drapers and could push for Betty over others. It still happens today; a board will name someone solely because they know that this person has the money or connections that it needs. And isn't that just what Betty proved to them when she told the ladies she knew someone in the governor's office?

cross posting from episode 7 thread.

[Sister Magpie]

The typewriter was definitely an anachronism--I remember it being discussed ona commentary. Basically, they couldn't find enough typewriters of the type that would have been used. MW just wanted one where the carriage moved and was electric. So if the typewriters look like those you would have seen in offices in the 1980s...they are.

[RuthlessBunny]

Basically, they couldn't find enough typewriters of the type that would have been used.

Wah! I wish I had known. The previous owner of our house left behind an old Smith-Corona! I still have it. My family owned a turquoise Royal that my mom typed my dad's grad school papers on.

I learned to type on a manual typewriter in high school and I now type over 100 words per minute. I sure do thwack the keys though!

[lovethatdog]

Working from memory here (of the episode as well as my own experience), the typewriter looked exactly like an IBM Selectric, which would be both available and exiting in 1963.

[acsenray]

I agree that it looked like a model that was available in 1963, but it didn't look like one that was in 1963. It was full of scuff marks that made it look like it had experienced the heavy wear of the '60s, '70s, '80s.

[RuthlessBunny]

The Selectric was the workhorse of the modern office right up until WANG word-prossessing came into vogue. (Yes, I'm THAT old.)

I loved to type and watch that little ball dance. I loved that you could change it out for different type, itallics and different type sizes (remember Pica and Elite?)

Okay, that came directly out of a very cobweb filled and dark part of my brain.

[georgia76]

I'm puzzled and amused that anyone would think a grammatical error (using your instead of you're) was anachronistic. I would imagine people have been making grammatical errors ever since grammar was invented.

[Mr. Excitement]

acsenray writes:

TwopMars has approved the creation of a thread on suspicions that particular uses of language are anachronistic for the early 1960s.

Great thread idea (and great thread title). John McWhorter of The New Republic wrote an opinion piece about this very topic:

More generally, however, the writers at Mad Men seem to have an idea that in the early sixties, people spoke more "properly" than they do now. And they did, in formal and public settings. Until the late sixties, there was a sense that language was to be cossetted and dressed up in public in the same way that one wore deodorant. Think of the old gesture of clearing your throat before Making a Speech, the speech having been carefully written out and practiced, as opposed to today when we prefer looser "talks."

[Sister Magpie]

Believe it or not, I still have a Selectric in my office. I mostly just use it for labels (the kind that get stuck in the printer) but there's something really satisfying about typing on them. When I first used to work in my dad's office they still had them.

[TWoP Mars]

This thread is not for discussions of THINGS from back then. It's about how they talked, or might not have talked. We have other threads about the time period that can deal with stuff like typewriters.

[PolkaDotty]

It seemed phoney when Don walked through his Tuesday morning saying "Fender bender" to everyone. I was wondering if that was anachronistic, but the only research I dug up said it was in use approx. from "1960 - 1965." That sure narrows it down.

And someone on the main thread said that Peggy explained her new office away by saying, "I'm sleeping with Don." (As an example of her dry sense of humor.) The first time I heard that expression was in 1964, when it was said of my older brother's girlfriend and another lad, while my brother was away at college. I took it literally, and wondered how the cad could have snuck up to her bedroom past her father.

[acsenray]

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, "sleep with" has been a euphemism for "have sex with" since the 10th century. So, approximately 1,100 years.

Edited by acsenray, Oct 2, 2009 @ 8:54 PM.

[RangerGirl]

One I remember that jarred with me was Joan saying in Long Weekend (I think?) while getting ready to go out with her roommate, "1960, I am so over you".

It's a tricky one to confirm using Google Books or similar, but that seems like a very modern idiom to me.

[queen of mean]

Remember my dad saying "fender bender" when I was a kid (born 1960).

[Cassis]

I'm not sure if this counts or not, but I was thinking that "Hildy" didn't seem a period name in the way that Peggy, Betty, and Joan are. Then I thought that she must have been named after the Rosalind Russell character in His Girl Friday--but that didn't come out until 1940. (The stage play The Front Page was written in 1930, but the Hildy character in the play was male.)

So--anachronism? Or was Hildy only supposed to be 20 in season 1? Or were there other 1930s (or for that matter fifties and sixties) Hildies that I don't know about/have forgotten?

[dorakpasa]

I worked with a Hildy in the '70s. She would have been in her 20's during the Mad Men time. Her full name was Hildegarde. I only knew her as an adult - past the teasing stage!

[sophiemd]

According to the Social Security Admin, Hilda was the 215th most name for baby girls in 1940.

[EleanorAquitain]

The first time I heard that expression was in 1964, when it was said of my older brother's girlfriend and another lad, while my brother was away at college.

I am going to guess that has more to do with the age you were when you first heard it than to do with whether or not the expression was used. In other words, since you were a young person, it was unlikely to be a part of your conversation, whereas it was probably used by adults.

[queen of mean]

....from dictionary.com:

fender bender - a collision between motor vehicles in which there is only minor damange
Origin: 1960-65

[Kestrel]

Dev F., thanks for the recommendation of Google Books. I just spent a fun hour browsing around, particularly reveling in the Life Magazines from 1963. Lots of print ads for cigarettes and booze.

And "fender bender" shows up in a Life Magazine as early as 1945. There are several mentions in both Life and Popular Mechanics in the 50s as well.

One I remember that jarred with me was Joan saying in Long Weekend (I think?) while getting ready to go out with her roommate, "1960, I am so over you".

It's a tricky one to confirm using Google Books or similar, but that seems like a very modern idiom to me.

I think RangerGirl is right on this one. While the phrase "over you" was certainly around in 1960, I believe that the use of "so" as an intensifier originates much later than 1960. I'd be interested to see if anyone can find any examples of this sort of usage prior to the 1980s.

Edited by Kestrel, Oct 4, 2009 @ 9:57 AM.

[Sister Magpie]

I think RangerGirl is right on this one. While the phrase "over you" was certainly around in 1960, I believe that the use of "so" as an intensifier originates much later than 1960. I'd be interested to see if anyone can find any examples of this sort of usage prior to the 1980s.

If people were using the term "over you" by that time there's no reason they couldn't emphasize just how much they were over something, imo. It's not like the construction is new, it's just more popular phrase now imo.

Edited by Sister Magpie, Oct 4, 2009 @ 5:18 PM.

[lska]

While the phrase "over you" was certainly around in 1960, I believe that the use of "so" as an intensifier originates much later than 1960. I'd be interested to see if anyone can find any examples of this sort of usage prior to the 1980s.

Apparently the OED has one isolated example from 1923, and then nothing until Woody Allen's Manhattan (1979).

[PolkaDotty]

While the phrase "over you" was certainly around in 1960, I believe that the use of "so" as an intensifier originates much later than 1960. I'd be interested to see if anyone can find any examples of this sort of usage prior to the 1980s.

Apparently the OED has one isolated example from 1923, and then nothing until Woody Allen's Manhattan (1979).

Great research. I think a great deal of the use of "so" has to do with the emphasis put on the word. Rather than the Woody Allen quote, I think the Heathers quote is the first time it was used with such dismissal, which is what gives the word the power. Whatever the innocent says, a mean girl will always come up with a sneer and say, "that was so 1986." If Elvis were alive, he would have rocked the sneer.

[buyitnow]

Or were there other 1930s (or for that matter fifties and sixties) Hildies that I don't know about/have forgotten?

There's a Hildy the cab driver in the musical On The Town, from 1944, made into a film five years later.

Edited by buyitnow, Oct 6, 2009 @ 7:47 PM.