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Vampire Mythology: TVD vs. Other Vampire Tales


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#961

SnowFox

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 11:25 AM

I prefer shades of grey characters. They are usually more interesting. However, I dislike the way the show tries to divide the characters as Stefan/Elena/Elijah = good, and Damon/Katherine/Klaus = bad. It's too simplistic, and not at all true.

BtVS, Angel and True Blood have the same problem.
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#962

wildling

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 12:01 PM

True Blood seemed to have some sort of vampire rules/laws that vampires were supposed to obey

As I understand it, True Blood seems to have a hierarchy vampires are supposed to obey, but the same could be said about werewolves, faes, shifters and even humans on the show.

Their values/rules, however, are very much human to me, with makers trying to protect their progenies as only werewolves would protect their werepups or a person their own children. As a human, Tara may have hated Eric the vampire but, as Pam's progenie, she's almost as fond of this 'grandpa' who spoils her rotten as the viking himself is of his brand new granddaughter.

The loss of a progenie or a werepup is the most painful thing known to these creatures, betray their makers is as unthinkable as to betray their alpha because there is a tighter sense of family among them than the one I've seen between the Forbes, the Salvatore or the Gilberts.

Edited by wildling, Dec 9, 2012 @ 12:16 PM.

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#963

BerryIsHere

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 1:02 PM

I prefer shades of grey characters. They are usually more interesting. However, I dislike the way the show tries to divide the characters as Stefan/Elena/Elijah = good, and Damon/Katherine/Klaus = bad. It's too simplistic, and not at all true.

BtVS, Angel and True Blood have the same problem.

I actually found Angel did an outstanding job of grey characters: Wesley Wyndam-Pryce. The whole breaking down of his character in season 3 to lead him to betraying the people he loved most and subsequent hostility towards them for not hearing him out when it all went down to his relationship with Lilah... that was some beautiful character driven story.

And speaking of Lilah, I feel this was the original goal the TVD meant to do with Klaus and his thing w/ Caroline but are failing miserably. Lilah started off playing around with Wesley since she saw him as a valuable assets for Wolfram & Hart, realized it wasn't going to happen so left him to continue on his path but still spent time with him, and ended up having some serious feelings for the guy but it never compromised her being fully Team Evil. She never waxed on to Wesley about little woodland creatures to fool him into her having a soft side, or sent him incredibly lame pony drawings. Lilah never cried every other episode because someone didn't love her or that her daddy didn't hug her enough.
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#964

gingercharm21

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 1:16 PM

I really liked how Angel did redemption about 85% of the time. Angel, Faith, Wesley, and Connor. It was understood that if Angel returned to Angelus early on, his team would take him out (I believe Gunn said this). Also, in Season 4 of Angel when Faith returns.

ANGEL
(lunges at Angelus) I'm not perfect, Faith. Even with a soul, I've done things I wished a thousand times I could take back.
ANGEL
Faith, listen to me. You saw me drink. It doesn't get much lower than that. And I thought I could make up for it by disappearing.

FAITH
I did my time.

ANGEL
Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything.

FAITH
It hurts.

ANGEL
I know. I know.


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#965

SnowFox

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 2:27 PM

As I understand it, True Blood seems to have a hierarchy vampires are supposed to obey, but the same could be said about werewolves, faes, shifters and even humans on the show.

They do. Unfortunately, True Blood suffers from having too many characters, too many SLs, and too many dropped plotlines. The Vampire Diaries is having some of the same problems. I wish both shows would trim the cast, and concentrate on more character development.
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#966

wildling

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Posted Dec 9, 2012 @ 4:08 PM

As I understand it, True Blood seems to have a hierarchy vampires are supposed to obey, but the same could be said about werewolves, faes, shifters and even humans on the show.

Their values/rules, however, are very much human to me, with makers trying to protect their progenies as only werewolves would protect their werepups or a person their own children. As a human, Tara may have hated Eric the vampire but, as Pam's progenie, she's almost as fond of this 'grandpa' who spoils her rotten as the viking himself is of his brand new granddaughter.

The loss of a progenie or a werepup is the most painful thing known to these creatures, betray their makers is as unthinkable as to betray their alpha because there is a tighter sense of family among them than the one I've seen between the Forbes, the Salvatore or the Gilberts.

They do. Unfortunately, True Blood suffers from having too many characters, too many SLs, and too many dropped plotlines.

I've only seen the last two seasons but I haven't picked on any dropped plotline: everything is interconnected to the vampires coming out 3 years ago, forcing the rest of the supernaturals to expose themselves in the process. If anything, the only thing the different factions have in common is the same desire to protect their offsprings.

But I do agree The Vampire Diaries could benefit from a trim in the [already sizable] cast.

Edited by wildling, Dec 9, 2012 @ 4:12 PM.

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#967

My Way

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Posted Dec 11, 2012 @ 4:53 PM

As a human, Tara may have hated Eric the vampire but, as Pam's progenie, she's almost as fond of this 'grandpa' who spoils her rotten as the viking himself is of his brand new granddaughter.

This makes me wonder if I should rethink my decision to skip s5.

Even with all TVD's problems, I can't compare Twilight favorably to it. At least there are no love at first sites with a baby on this show.
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#968

Munchiewoman

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Posted Dec 11, 2012 @ 7:03 PM

As a human, Tara may have hated Eric the vampire but, as Pam's progenie, she's almost as fond of this 'grandpa' who spoils her rotten as the viking himself is of his brand new granddaughter.


This makes me wonder if I should rethink my decision to skip s5.


I wouldn't rethink it based on the above, since I don't think Eric and Tara have given each other the time of day. I did not see any of the grandpa/granddaughter dynamic wildling has. Or, for that matter, any interaction at all. Granted, Tara isn't my favorite character, but Eric is, so I would think I would have noticed.

I'm actually kind of glad this show has done a different take on siring. It's a specific thing, not just automatic loyalty/submissiveness to whoever turned you. Unless you were a werewolf, and there you have the whole pack animal Alpha thing going anyway.
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#969

wildling

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Posted Dec 12, 2012 @ 5:57 PM

As a human, Tara may have hated Eric the vampire but, as Pam's progenie, she's almost as fond of this 'grandpa' who spoils her rotten as the viking himself is of his brand new granddaughter.

This makes me wonder if I should rethink my decision to skip s5.

Well, it is Eric Northman: his idea of spoil a granddaughter rotten is to buy her a sunproof coffin and take her on the rampage over a nest of religious fanatics. These are vampires, after all.

Even with all TVD's problems, I can't compare Twilight favorably to it. At least there are no love at first sites with a baby on this show.

If only Elena Gilbert wouldn't be 165 years younger than the Salvatore, I'm afraid its more than likely the brothers did fall for her when she was still a baby.

ETA:

I did not see any of the grandpa/granddaughter dynamic wildling has.

I'd say Tara definitely hero worships him, if only he would've seen her slain the new Sheriff who tried to take over Fangtasia...this is Eric's bloodline, no doubt IMO.

Edited by wildling, Dec 12, 2012 @ 6:19 PM.

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#970

OptimisticCynic

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Posted Dec 15, 2012 @ 2:13 AM

I gave up on this show a few episodes ago, but I recently watched an interview with Sam Witwer of Being Human (Syfy). And he mentioned something that I really appreciate about that show but seems to be missing from this show.

Spoilers for those who haven't watched Being Human yet. I'd highly recommend the show.

Starts at 10:30, he starts talking about vampire killings and consequences in the show. Being Human is pretty brutal in the depiction of the monstrosity of it's characters, but also their characters are so much more enjoyable because they strive to be better. I know that this show doesn't embrace that same type of tone. That's fine - but a lot of the plot is done for shock without much follow through. And characters stay stagnant. And anyone who isn't a regular actor is expendable, not just to the show, but to the world within the show. Innocent people getting killed has no consequences, not for the murderers, not for any authority figure within the world created. Anyone who objects is depicted as even more villainous (like Connor). Had he not stabbed April, he would be a character who has legitimate reasons to want to protect and fight vampires.

He also mentions at 6:00 the absurdity of 100-year old (or older) vampires coming off so immature. So the concept he came up with (which benefited the show greatly), is that during flashbacks in order to hide into plain sight his character develops the slang and mannerisms of that period. By contrast, you have vampires like Stefan and Damon on this show who never progress or mature, despite how old they really are, and fall in love with a 17 year old girl.
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#971

wildling

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Posted Dec 15, 2012 @ 3:37 PM

I agree with him, it's just one of those things that doesn't add up for me.

In True Blood, when a vampire is over a 1000 it doesn't matter if the actor is a 10 or a 16 year old, there's a somber look in the eyes of the child actor as if an old man in a retirement home, and the adults make the point to react to them as only a son would to his father.

I see the baby vampire in the younger vampires, the senior citizens older vampires never got to be and everything in between as, I imagine, it should be with Being Human (Syfy), but I didn't see it with Klaus, Katherine or the Salvatore.

Edited by wildling, Dec 17, 2012 @ 12:59 AM.

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#972

Albion19

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Posted Dec 16, 2012 @ 7:36 AM

I think you can see it in Elijah and Pearl, but that's about it.
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#973

My Way

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Posted Dec 16, 2012 @ 8:15 AM

By contrast, you have vampires like Stefan and Damon on this show who never progress or mature, despite how old they really are, and fall in love with a 17 year old girl.

I love Being Human (US) too for all the reasons you mentioned but to be fair Celine was pretty damn young and Witwer's character fell for her. Of course, she seemed kind of awesome so it was understandable, but I think falling for young women is just a consequence of looking eternally youthful. How many 80 year old men would be dating teenagers if they still looked 17?

Some of the dating young thing is just because vampires in high school is a genre now. So it doesn't have to make much sense.
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#974

Orion7

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Posted May 4, 2013 @ 6:22 PM

Bumping this up because there was a TVD-BtVS discussion going on in an episode thread. (This is really TWoP Howard, by the way, trying the forums as a regular user). 


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#975

west64

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Posted Jul 13, 2013 @ 10:50 PM

One thing I admire about Buffy/Angel and even Supernatuara that TVD sucks at, is the big bad of the season is not around for more than a season or two and is killed. TVD has introduced so many big bads like Katherine, Klaus etc. only Julie Plec keeps them around for years and they get redeemed. The show is yet to have an actual villain who stays a villain, whats the likes of Silas turning good. I actually prefer the season arc and big bads that many supernatural shows do, I dont think Julie Plec will ever write a big bad who is evil and only sticks around for no more than one or two seasons and is gone.


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#976

leopard9

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Posted Jul 14, 2013 @ 1:44 PM

For all the writers' faults in creating the world of the Vampire Diaries, they have done a great job of making it an extremely brutal place to be a supernatural creature.  Vampires don't seem to think anything at all about killing each other and according to Stefan, every vampire is an intentional murderer.  Werewolves activate the curse through murder, are physically weaker than vampires except for the 12 days a year they become mindless beasts through a painful transformation. If you're a hybrid, you're either dead or bound to an immortal psychopath who cannot die.  Witches seem to be the only ones who get the perks of being a supernatural creature without all the violence and carnage that the other species experience other than a tendency to be coerced into doing a vampire's dirty work.


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#977

TWoP Howard

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Posted Oct 19, 2013 @ 5:36 PM

I've tweaked the title of the thread to make it clearer that this is the thread in which to discuss the mythology of the show. This would be a good place to discuss the mythology of the doppelgänger, now that we've learned some new information about that. You can also use it to compare this show to other vampire tales. 



#978

rr2

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Posted Oct 20, 2013 @ 2:20 AM

 

 

One thing I admire about Buffy/Angel and even Supernatuara that TVD sucks at, is the big bad of the season is not around for more than a season or two and is killed. TVD has introduced so many big bads like Katherine, Klaus etc. only Julie Plec keeps them around for years and they get redeemed. The show is yet to have an actual villain who stays a villain, whats the likes of Silas turning good. I actually prefer the season arc and big bads that many supernatural shows do, I dont think Julie Plec will ever write a big bad who is evil and only sticks around for no more than one or two seasons and is gone.

 

Don't even worry about this one right here at least in this season. Qetsiyah is now here. She is gunning for Stefan and Elena lookalikes and she is a women of color. Oh and she is related to Bonnie. She is gonna die very quickly.


Edited by rr2, Oct 20, 2013 @ 2:21 AM.

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