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Finn Hudson: Quick on the Trigger


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#5611

wingster55

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 12:35 PM

(and I will always love Finn's desperation to get Quinn back to the group for that performance and not the person who was scheduled to sing lead female vocals.)

 

It's interesting that this is pointed out...there's a parallel with both characters. If neither had joined Glee, Puck, Mike, other guy in s1, Brittany and Santana wouldn't have joined. Finn wasn't honored because of his talent but because (most of the time) he was the motivation for the group. In the pilot, getting Quinn back, working to keep Santana and Brittany in s3.

Rachel could never be the leader because she was never selfless enough.


Edited by wingster55, Mar 12, 2014 @ 12:37 PM.

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#5612

camussie

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 12:48 PM

I think Rachel was a leader in her own way.  She definitely drove the performances (which is why I wish the juniors had sang that song to both Rachel and Finn in the graduation episode) but I also don't think she had skill set that was some how able to bring people together as a group.  It wasn't that she was never selfless enough.  I just think it wasn't in her wheelhouse like it was in Finn's.  

 

Finn wasn't always perfect in this regard but I still think it was one of the few things fairly consistent about his characterization.  

 

Finn had flashes of brilliance as a leader, but he really was much more of a follower when he was in glee club.  He rarely ever did anything without prompting.  He was better as the psuedo Glee Club teacher in S4, but while he was actually in glee club?  Nope.  

 

 

I really disagree with that.  I can think of several times where he did something without prompting.

  • On his own initiative he came up with the plan for their first true production number, "Don't Stop Believing."  
  • He led the walk out when Dakota Stanley was ruining the club with his demands
  • He pushed the football team to try Kurt's Single Ladies diversionary tactic
  • He also was the one who talked to Coach Tanaka about how both Glee and football were important and people shouldn't have to chose.  
  • Sure it took Will to push him to go help out at sectionals but he once again he came up with one of their group numbers
  • He went to Will on his own about how the guys were feeling like the music choices lately were catering to the girls and then came up with the KISS idea to show their theatricality
  • He went after Santana, Quinn, and Brittany for their halftime show.  As an aside I think he focused on Quinn because he knew where she went Santana and Brit would follow and he wanted all 3 of them to come back
  • He recruited Sam in the first place and then went to Kentucky to bring him back to the group in season 3
  • After he found out Sam's situation he organized a drive to help Sam and his siblings
  • It was his idea that they had to help Sue with her sister's funeral including the song they used
  • He brought all of the guys together to try and help Puck

I would agree that he followed Rachel's lead when it came to music but that doesn't mean he wasn't a leader within the group


Edited by camussie, Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:05 PM.

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#5613

Tom86

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 1:05 PM

Rachel could never be the leader because she was never selfless enough.

 

That isn't  true.   The first Sectionals she proved that.   She knew what was good for the team was good for her too.

 

I don't think she gets enough credit for what she did do for the team.  Her 2 times arguing over a song yes only 2 times over shadowed how she was instrumental in keeping the group together and picking up the l slack especially in the beginning.   She did this even when they didn't support her at times.


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#5614

McWhadden

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 1:58 PM

Finn was just as if not more selfish than Rachel.

 

Rachel is the one who banded everyone together to protect Kurt when he was being bullied. And Puck and the other guys followed up on what Rachel wanted them to do. Finn was just a coward.

 

Rachel was the one who got the girls to play in the football game when the other players quit.

 

Finn is the one who brought someone new into the group (who they needed numbers wise) and then started hooking up with his girlfriend and laughing at him behind his back.

 

Finn was just as likely to hog attention in competitions. Rachel at least gave up the spotlight willingly a couple of times (like to Mercedes in Sectionals until it was sabotaged) when did Finn ever say "you know I am lead male vocals a lot maybe Puck should take this one"? Or when the Troubletones happened or he was trying prevent Britt from leaving when did he say "you know, Mr. Shue, they are really talented maybe we should feature them more"?

 

Rachel came up with songs several times.

 

Rachel is the one we saw work really hard on writing original songs (and she wrote Brittany's favorite song!).

 

So, I don't buy for even one second that Finn was more of a leader than Rachel.

 

I don't even buy Finn was more of a leader than Quinn.

 

Quinn was the one who got the Troubletones back.

 

Quinn was the one who got the group their picture in the yearbook. And, more importanly, prevented Sue from getting the group disbanded.

 

The only thing that makes Finn more of a leader than Rachel, imo, is that he has a dick.

 

I am not insulting Finn, personally, I think he is a flawed sometimes jerky guy with a good heart and who tries hard. I am insulting the show for treating their flawed guys like superheroes and their flawed girls as bitches who need men to teach them how to be right.


Edited by McWhadden, Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:10 PM.

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#5615

SinkWriter72

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:10 PM

 

Rachel at least gave up the spotlight willingly a couple of times (like to Mercedes in Sectionals until it was sabotaged) 

 

Rachel said something like "It's clear they love you" (or the 'room' loves you, I forget the exact wording). I'm not sure I'd say that was exactly the most gracious giving up of the spotlight especially when the point was that it wasn't hers to give or take in the first place. She just assumes all solos are hers unless someone protests.

 

It wasn't a response like, "Wow, you sang the hell out of that song, you have to do it for Sectionals, Mercedes." It felt more like a backhanded compliment, like "Well, it's clear they're all going to vote for you, so I guess I have to let you do it." She couldn't just tell Mercedes that Mercedes had talent too. It's one of the reasons I couldn't stand Rachel back in season 1 for a long while, because she wouldn't or couldn't acknowledge anyone else's talent without insulting them at the same time or telling them how they weren't as good as she was. I know a lot of that was probably self-esteem issues and self-defense mode, to stay strong, but it's tough to like someone who says "You're of course not as talented as I am..."


Edited by SinkWriter72, Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:11 PM.

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#5616

camussie

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:11 PM

I don't recall Rachel ever giving up a duet.  She did give up a solo but not a duet so I don't consider him doing duets or being the male lead in group numbers as hogging attention especially when none of the guys seemed all that interested in leading a duet.  Hogging attention would be demanding a solo and he never did that and when the duet for season 2 sectionals was given to Quinn/Sam, Rachel was the one who had a problem with it while Finn didn't argue Will's decision.  If he was someone who hogged attention he too would have protested that decision.  As for being more of a leader I think he and Rachel led ND in their own ways which is why they were co-captains.  Others contributed now and then, Quinn especially, but I thought the show was fairly consistent in showing Finn bringing the group together.  

 

As for the bullying thing I will just never buy into the idea that it was anybody in ND's responsibility to band together and protect Kurt.  I know I was supposed to be awed at Sam stepping up and disappointed in Finn but all I got out of the that dumb plot point was how incredibly unfair it was of Rachel to expect the guys in ND to take care of this issue and how incredibly unfair it was of Burt to act like Finn should have been Kurt's personal bodyguard, especially considering his own bullying at the hands of Karoksky (they shoved him into a locker and took the letter jacket that he worked hard for and tore it in half).  I would have  bought into it more if Rachel told the guys what was going on and Sam came up with an idea to talk to Coach Bieste and Finn resisted going to her.  Then I would have been on the bad bad Finn bandwagon the show seemed to be pushing.  

 

That said the writing there seemed to be aimed at making Finn look as bad as possible.  He could have easily said to Rachel, Karoksky is my line man and I leave myself open to get pummeled on the field if I tick him off.  I can't risk that kind of injury because football is one of the ways I may make it out of Lima.  Sure that would have been more nuanced and not cast Finn a total disappointment who let Kurt and Rachel down but they still could have played out the same plot with Finn feeling like he let Kurt down and singing to him at the wedding.   Sadly RM and team never saw a sledgehammer they didn't want to wield.  


Edited by camussie, Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:56 PM.

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#5617

McWhadden

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:17 PM

duet for season 2 sectionals was given to Quinn/Sam, Rachel was the one who had a problem with it while Finn didn't argue Will's decision.

 

 

But he did flip out at the propsect of Blaine getting attention.

 

And I think the duet/solo distinction isn't quite fair. No guys got solos. The only people to have solos were Rachel and Santana. But he did happily get every major lead singing role without a second thought. Just as Blaine casually accepts the things showered upon him.

 

I never bought him as much as a genuine leader, rhetoric aside. He never spoke up for the people who didn't get to have their time in the spotlight. He didn't do much to stop bullying of the the other glee kids (which Puck, Mike and Santana had done). He encouraged a group that was basically background players to the Finn/Rachel show. And when people left because they were bothered by that he got angry with them rather than udnerstand their point. Which, imo, was perfectly valid.

 

Plus, he could do things that were just as destructive to the group and he never got called out on it. The cheating with Quinn being a prime example. Rachel was constantly being called out. Not to mention the real dick things he could do. If a girl doesn't want to talk about being gay in front of other people (including people she doesn't know that well like Rory and Blaine) she doesn't have to (I don't care one bit about the "outting" but his forcing it to be a topic of discussion was disgusting). Regardless of whether Quinn could stand by prom her spinal injuries were genuine and shaking a fucking girl in a wheelchair is really dangerous. The spine is very sensitive. I think he acted like his role as leader made him the moral authority over other people. And he could be really self-righteous. Even though his heart was in the right place I don't think those are good leader qualities at all. I think leaders have some deference and empathy.

 

He is more of a leader than Sam or Blaine, for sure. More of a leader than most of the other originals except Rachel and, arguably, Kurt. But being more of a leader than that group isn't much to be proud of.


Edited by McWhadden, Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:37 PM.

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#5618

camussie

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:47 PM

He was bothered by  Blaine getting attention but I thought it was pretty clear that was all part of him being freaked out in general about his after high school prospects as well as the way Blaine approached his role in the group.  He also realized he was wrong and went to Blaine and apologized .  As far as the rest none of the guys showed an interest in doing a duet.  I know that Puck liked being a part of Glee and cared about the group but I never got any interest from him to do more than he was doing.  Same with Artie.  Same with Mike who made it clear he didn't want to sing.

 

As far as not stopping the bullying I would argue he did as much as the others.  After all he was the one who stopped Puck from flipping Artie in the port a potty.  He was the one who donned a Lady Gaga outfit and stood up for Kurt.  When Karofsky came back he reassured Burt he was watching out for Kurt.  When Santana was bullying Rory he got in her face about it.

 

As for not being called out, while I wish he was called out more for his role in Quinn's cheating I can't say that wasn't the norm.  Look at Sam & Mercedes.  They did basically the same thing Finn/Quinn did and caught even less shade for it.  No one really called out Puck for the part he played in Rachel cheating on Finn.  Finn didn't even seem to hold it against him.  

 

I don't think he was a perfect leader and i think there were times when he should have stepped up when he didn't.  I just think it was pretty consistent that he found a way to bring them all together.


Edited by camussie, Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:58 PM.

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#5619

suz1986

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:52 PM

She just assumes all solos are hers unless someone protests.

 

Rachel also graciously  asked Mercedes for another song because they had all agreed she would sing the solo.  But Mercedes had nothing so Rachel had to step up in her place.  

 

She offered a ballad she didn't demand one and she quickly stepped aside and gave the floor to Mercedes  who got angry without being provoked.   This was the very first competition.   Mercedes already knew she was going to sing in Proud Mary so it wasn't as if Mercedes wasn't going to be featured  in the competition already.

 

Rachel did not say no to Proud Mary cause it didn't feature her.   Rachel like the rest of them wanted a song to be featured in and she went for it just like Mercedes did here.

 

 

IMO Finn, like Rachel will always get called out more cause they are the leads of the l club and the show. 


Edited by suz1986, Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:55 PM.

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#5620

McWhadden

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 2:58 PM

They did basically the same thing Finn/Quinn did and caught even less shade for it.  No one really called out Puck for the part he played in Rachel cheating on Finn.

 

 

Sam and Mercedes did not hur the club by alienating a new member that Finn, himself had brought it. Puck wasn't called out because he stopped it.

 

When Santana was bullying Rory he got in her face about it.

 

 

That bothered me a lot. What a fucking hypocrite he was. Finn attacked Jesse at prom for just being with Rachel. He beat the shit out of Brody for being a prostitute. He pulled a prank on Vocal Adrenaline for the egging. If someone had tried to convince Rachel to sleep with them by lying and saying they were a Broadway producer he would have flipped out and beat them to hell.

 

But this kid can come to school lie and manipulate a girl for sex and he first of all didn't say a thing about how wrong and disgusting what he was doing was when he found out before anyone. And then got in Santana's face for having a problem with the kid when his reaction if it had been his girlfriend would have been ten times worse.  Rory got off easy. Had he tried to do that to Rachel he would probably be dead not a well deserved dodgeball to the face. Santana was definitely excessively mean verbally. But that kid was a fucking pig it isn't like she targeted him out of the blue for no reason. She didn't pay any attention to him until he tried to force his way into Brittany's pants through deception.

 

Finn had known Brittany for years. She was a group member. He found out some new kid was trying to manipulate her through lies to get her into bed on false pretenses and he didn't say a word. Just like he didn't care that she was failing.

 

Finn wasn't a leader to everyone. And it was usually the girls who were left out. Even random new guys were more important.


Edited by McWhadden, Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:09 PM.

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#5621

camussie

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:09 PM

Sam and Mercedes did not hur the club by alienating a new member that Finn, himself had brought it. Puck wasn't called out because he stopped it.

 

 

They were still doing the exact same thing Finn/Quinn did.  Also there was tension between Mercedes/Sam because Sam pushed it. Regarding Puck. Sure he stopped it before it turned to more than making out but he didn't stop it before he laid down on Rachel's bed with her and kissed her some.  That was the second time he had been involved with a girl cheating on Finn and Finn certainly didn't hold it against him nor did anyone in ND judge him for it.  Just like Sam quickly got over what Finn did to him.  

 

I understand Santana being angry at Rory but I will never agree with the way she went after Rory in dodge ball just like I thought Finn was wrong for going after Jesse at the prom (which is why I was glad Sue threw him out) and engaging in that fight with Brody.  

 

As far as Brittany it wasn't just that she was failing one class (like Puck) she was failing all of her classes.  One could be helped to graduate.  One couldn't.  Not even her girlfriend or her fellow Cheerio tried to help Brittany because it had reached the point that her graduating wasn't a possibility.  With Puck it still was so Finn rallied the boys and then later on Quinn helped him study.  


Edited by camussie, Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:22 PM.

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#5622

McWhadden

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:11 PM

I wasn't speaking to the morality over Rory just Finn's raging hypocrisy over it. She was wrong but it certainly isn't Finn's place to claim showing anger and aggression over someone lying and decieving your girlfriend for sex is horrible when he wouldn't have acted differently. And, if anything, would probably have been far more physical. At no point did Finn even seem to acknowldge that Rory's behavior was a problem. Which is another real failure for me.

 

Just like I don't think it is the Glee club's business if anyone cheats on other people, they aren't the moral arbiters, I think it is the Glee club's business if it is someone who had brought a new kid in and tried to make him feel welcome and then alienated him. It hurts the club. Just like what Rachel did to Sunshine hurt the club. My point being he was not inherently less selfish.

 

I genuinely love Finn and I know it doesn't sound like that. I just don't think there was anything about him that was so much more capable of being a leader than Rachel.

 

I love my characters flawed. I loved Finn for being flawed. I just think it is unfair to claim that he had some far more noble character than someone who loved glee as much like Rachel.


Edited by McWhadden, Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:24 PM.

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#5623

camussie

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:23 PM

If that is the case then it should have been their business that Puck enabled Rachel to cheat and that Puck and Quinn were lying to Finn about the baby but they all stayed out of those as  well.  The result was Finn feeling completely alienated because the entire group, save Rachel, kept the truth from him.  If they weren't going to judge either one of those situations, the pregnancy lie especially since that involved much more serious issues than a high school love triangle, then I don't see why they would judge what Finn/Quinn did to Sam.  That is why I don't think Finn got special treatment even as I agree he got a relatively free pass for what he and Quinn did to Sam.  

 

I also don't think he was inherently less selfish than Rachel but that doesn't change that I also believe him bringing people together was much more in his wheelhouse than it was in Rachel's and I would say the rest of ND members as well.  I actually think all of the ND members came across as typical self absorbed/selfish teenagers at one time or another.  The problem is that RM often took the situations to the extreme.  

 

I also don't think he was more capable of being a leader than Rachel but he was more capable of bringing people together for a common cause than Rachel.  Just like she was more capable of staying on people to perform at their best.  Both were needed for ND to succeed.  


Edited by camussie, Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:46 PM.

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#5624

wingster55

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:27 PM

And then got in Santana's face for having a problem with the kid

 

When did that happen?


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#5625

totallybff

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 3:50 PM

I just don't think Finn was really much of a leader for glee club; he came more into his own when he was mini-schue and teaching the kids.  But while he was in glee club, he couldn't bring himself to stand in the year book photo, he stood by while his brother was tormented to protect his popularity, he couldn't bring himself to publicly state Rachel's original song idea was a good one, and he participated in dynamics that hurt the glee club's morale just as much as everybody else.

 

I will say he did have some bright spots as mentioned in Camussie's post, but overall I just don't see him as some benevolent leader of glee club that the writers seem intent on making him.  He was an important part of the glee club, but so were Rachel and Kurt.


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#5626

SNeaker

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:07 PM

If I were Rachel, and my boyfriend broke up with me for kissing another guy (fair enough, even though that was a one time incident done in a moment of pain and betrayal), and he couldn't even forgive me when I begged him to be with me again two months later after it was clear how sorry I was and that there was nothing between me and the other guy...and then said boyfriend turned around, got HIS friend's girlfriend to cheat with him, and that girl was someone who'd actually HAD SEX with another guy, got pregnant from it, and then lied about it and tried to pass the baby off as his all whilst pressuring him to provide for the baby that wasn't his...well, if I were Rachel, I'd say "fuuuuuuck you. Buh bye." Instead, Rachel continued to pine pine pine for Finn for the rest of the Season 2. NO ONE called Finn out on this. Not Sam, not Puck, not Rachel. In fact, the only person who pointed it out was Finn himself when he accused Sam of trying to get back at him (and in that case, the club was happy to pile on Sam, who was innocent.)

 

Starting in mid-season 2, Finn started behaving in horrible ways that were not called out. By anyone. Not by the characters, not by the narrative. Not just that, but even his bad behavior was often portrayed as heroic or romantic. He'd behave like a jerk, and everyone would still hail him as the Great Hero and Leader. It was infuriating. And offensive. I don't think Finn was a bad person, at all, and if the show had been honest about who he was (a good kid with a good heart who nevertheless was too preoccupied with his image and was not so much a hero as he had a hero complex), he could have been an interesting and complicated character. But the narrative failed him, and by extension the audience.


Edited by SNeaker, Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:09 PM.

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#5627

McWhadden

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:13 PM

Instead, Rachel continued to pine pine pine for Finn for the rest of the Season 2. NO ONE called Finn out on this.

 

 

Well, Santana did. Her whole point for the mono thing and exposing the cheating was what huge hypocrites both Quinn and Finn were (Finn had just, perfectly legitimately, called her out on being a bitch all the time). She has actually called him a hypocrite several times.  But she was being a bitch. Legitimately not just the narrative says its bitchy. Nobody legitimate took issue with it.

 

And when Finn mentioned the Sam is trying to get back at me thing (which was absurd especially his anger) Sam did say something back about how Finn had done that to him. But just in passing.

 

a good kid with a good heart who nevertheless was too preoccupied with his image and was not so much a hero as he had a hero complex

 

 

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. He had the potential to be a great interesting character. Who was flawed. But they fucked it up. And, imo, they do the same thing with Blaine (and on the surface they actually aren't that different characters at all) but, at least, Cory was capable of raising the material. And displaying what wasn't on the page.

 

Arguably the person in Glee who was the most selfless and all about the group was Tina. She never quit, she was immediately there for protecting Kurt, all about being on the football team, willing to give up solos. Look what that got her.


Edited by McWhadden, Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:25 PM.

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#5628

camussie

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:26 PM

Rachel should have called out Finn for his hypocritical stance as should have Sam since he was the one Finn and Quinn wronged.  I don't think it was anyone else's place, especially Puck's, to do so. The odd thing about Sam is he turned around and did the same thing with Mercedes/her boyfriend.  It was a like an unbroken line from Puck/Quinn to Finn/Quinn to Sam/Mercedes.  We can even throw Santana/Brittney in there since she convinced Brittney to cheat on Artie by lying that it wasn't cheating because they were both girls.  

 

I just don't think that what Finn did to Sam disqualified him from being a leader of ND because I saw him stepping up several times.  A hero sure (and I never agreed that he was a hero) but not a leader.

 

As far as Rachel I agree she should have just walked after she found out about him and Quinn but I don't blame Finn for that because he wasn't pursuing her. 

 

As for the narrative failing Finn sure it did but I think it failed almost every character on the show and by extension the audience.  


Edited by camussie, Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:28 PM.

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#5629

SNeaker

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:32 PM

 

I don't think it was anyone else's place, especially Puck's, to do so.

 

I think as Finn's best friend, Sam's friend, and someone who had been down that road, it would not have been inappropriate for Puck to say, "Dude, I love you and all, but when did you turn into me? This isn't cool and it isn't you."

 

 

As far as Rachel I agree she should have just walked after she found out about him and Quinn but I don't blame Finn for that because he wasn't pursuing her.

 

It's not about blaming Finn for Rachel pining for him, it's that Finn became an unsympathetic character to me when he started behaving badly without being called out on it. In Season 1 when he behaved badly, Rachel gave him what for. It's ok for characters to have flaws, but not if those flaws are not acknowledged. It's not dissimilar to how the narrative keeps failing Rachel and her story by having everything come to her too easy. Acknowledged flaws are sympathetic. Struggles and failures are sympathetic. The writing kissing your ass no matter what you do is not.


Edited by SNeaker, Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:33 PM.

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#5630

camussie

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Posted Mar 12, 2014 @ 4:43 PM

If that is the case then would Finn have been justified calling out Sam doing the exact same thing in season 3?  To me that would have reeked of  hypocrisy on Puck's part especially since he just played a role in a second girl cheating on Finn with him.

 

As for Finn I agree they should have acknowledged he was wrong more.  Actually I don't think they should have done the Finn/Quinn redux at all as I thought after that tie scene in "Furt" for sure they were heading to Finn/Santana using each other but not really giving a damn about each other "relationship."  He because Santana would put out and he would trust her to tell him if she was going to hook up with someone else and her because she wanted to prove that she didn't need Brittany or any woman and also in her quest to become prom queen.  I would also say the whole Quinn/Finn redux was the first time that RM's inability to plan out the show became glaringly obvious.  


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#5631

KatWay

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Posted Mar 17, 2014 @ 2:12 PM

 

 

it would not have been inappropriate for Puck to say, "Dude, I love you and all, but when did you turn into me? This isn't cool and it isn't you."

 

I'd scratch the "this isn't cool" part though. Puck got off extremely lucky considering he remained Finn's friend, after being the one two of Finn's girlfriends chose to cheat on him with. And yeah, good for him for not actually sleeping with Rachel but the guy still went to bed with his alleged best friend's girlfriend again. So calling him out on turning into him? Would have been okay. Judging? Not so much.


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