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#11311

nyrose

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Posted Dec 1, 2013 @ 2:05 AM

No, I don't really expect it's what happened, but it's fun thinking of her as a killer.  Someone said we'd enjoy learning more and more about her, that just when you thought you understood her, another surprising layer of her personality would be revealed.   It would be good for Neal, finding out how thoroughly he could be conned.    Imagine his surprise when he gets to the layer where she's hiding the gun.  

 

Well nicodelaney if they go the route of Rebecca being a killer, I will be extremely disappointed. I am also hoping they don't make her another con woman, since I would like to see Neal shine through some of these cases and relationships. I can understand Alex conning him, she isn't out to destroy Neal, and they are equals and friends with benefits, both non violent.  I never liked that Sara domesticated Neal, or made him look dumbed down in various episodes. 

 

My favorite episodes show us the smart, lighthearted conman CI Neal, solving a case with Smart FBI agent Peter, with banter that is truly unique to them and that bromance.

It is true that there are more layers to Rebecca as Matt Bomer stated in an interview but I really hope for the positive.. Again, I wonder about Seigel's conversation with her, and if she will tell something to Neal, to get him thinking that Seigel was on to him..

 

I hate that there's spoilers for something we're not going to get to see for literally two months!

I know and it is sad that we only have 2 months left.. hope they renew the show.. I try and stay away from video spoilers and sneak peaks, and it has made viewing much better once an episode airs.


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#11312

nyrose

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Posted Dec 3, 2013 @ 11:56 PM

2 more days until new episode.. so today it was "Flip of the Coin" rewatch! I had forgotten how many good Neal and Peter scenes in this, as they are solving the case together. Also love how Mozzie and Peter first met at Neal's apartment.. Dante Haversham.. such a classic.


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#11313

nicodelaney

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Posted Dec 5, 2013 @ 11:04 PM

I liked Jill - she brought an element of realism and depth of feeling that almost seemed to belong on another show.   She brought out aspects of Peter -- including his feelings about Siegel's death -- that added a texture to the story that was in contrast to some of the more nonsensical parts.

 

I miss Diana but I'm enjoying seeing so much of Jones.

 

The whole thing at the hotel was just too silly too watch.   Didn't believe any of it.    The gun in the chair worried me -- surely the FBI agents are trained to be more careful with their guns.   How many days was it in that chair?   

 

I don't know what to say about Elizabeth -- I have such lukewarm feelings about her these days -- I hate seeing her order Neal around.   I keep imagining the young FBI trainee Burke who had a relationship with Jill and somehow it's hard to figure how he wound up with Elizabeth who has seemed so immature to me lately.   Of course she is a lot younger than he is.    It's just there was a time when she seemed a lot wiser than she seems now.  

 

Seems amazing to me that Neal studied Chapter 13 for 15 days while he was under house arrest and didn't figure out that the pages were part of a big picture.  

 

I'm still trying to figure how he's going to convince Rebecca to sleep with him even after he has to tell her about the anklet and that he's not an agent and has been lying to her all along -- or will there be another big lie so that the anklet makes sense too?    

 

I need to see the episode again.  There were a bunch of lines about trust and several Neal-Peter exchanges that went so quickly it was hard to catch everything they said.    Maybe this is one of those that needs a second or third viewing to reveal subtler truths.   


Edited by nicodelaney, Dec 6, 2013 @ 12:00 AM.

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#11314

dogfoot75

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Posted Dec 5, 2013 @ 11:49 PM

I'm also really curious as to how Neal's going to get around the anklet with Rebecca.

 

... and Elizabeth is much less mature this season than she has been in the past. She was kidnapped by Keller and managed to hold her composure, trick her captor, and escape. This Elizabeth could barely lie to the gunman. Yes, a lot of crap has happened to her and Peter in the past year, and yes, she has a right to be worried about him - but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially when she starts feeling insecure about another woman. She's never, ever been insecure about other women before! She even teased Peter about his flirting back in the first season! And now her comment about the figure skater in the last ep and thinking Peter might cheat on her this ep... what's happened to the strong Elizabeth?

 

I loved how excited Rebecca was though. And Mozzie and Elizabeth together! And Neal and Jones gossiping about Peter and Jill- golden.


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#11315

nicodelaney

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Posted Dec 6, 2013 @ 8:08 AM

I even gave some thought to the idea that Neal had already figured out the puzzle of the Codex pages but allowed Rebecca to discover it with him so he could bring her closer --  in preparation for the day she discovers he is not an agent, that he has lied to her  The closer he can make their bond beforehand, the less likely she'll be to walk away, to tell Peter what he's done, etc.    That's what con artists do, after all -- what he did (or may have done) with Peter in that moment we love so much in Vital Signs -- he binds himself to someone, appearing vulnerable in order to evoke the vulnerability of the other person.   You're the only one I trust -- powerful, powerful words -- but is he using them as a razor-sharp chisel to sculpt his way into Peter's heart, to get what he wants, to save himself, or is there some truth there, something we all desire from people we already like, people we'd like to be closer to?   How much does he need Peter to care about him -- why did he lead him on that merry chase that led to his capture?   Was he drawn to something in Peter that seemed to presage a refuge, a promise -- some relief from his anger, his sadness, his feelings that he was essentially a bad boy?  Did whatever that was he sensed in Peter (stability, safe haven perhaps?) something that chiseled away at his own heart?   

 

I don't believe Neal was tricking Rebecca at the moment of their discovery, but I think about it.  You have to -- he's always working on you.  Of course, everyone does things like that -- it's part of being human, how we draw others closer by showing them a softer side of ourselves, by creating special moments that will be part of our personal history together, that will bind us together.   

 

And because we love Neal and believe as Peter does that he has a good heart, we give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's also always the con artist and he takes what most of us do in a clumsy way and elevates it to an art form.   He is drawn to Rebecca, and yet their relationship is complicated by the fact that he needs her expertise to help solve the Codex mystery.   It's about trust.   He's working on getting her to trust him -- driving that chisel closer and closer to her heart -- but we know she shouldn't.  And yet, because we think he genuinely is falling for her, we hope she does.   (See how he's involved US in his complicated little web -- how he works on us?)    It's like that maddening thing about his relationship with Peter -- we want them to trust one another -- but who is using whom?   The power seems all on Peter's side -- he has the law behind him, he controls the anklet -- and yet, Neal has powers, too -- the power to manipulate, to charm, to use his vulnerability to appeal to Peter (or Rebecca).   

 

In a related issue -- and I need to see this part of the episode again -- I thought it was very interesting what Peter said to Jill about being Neal's handler, the sense that he can't go off to Washington, can't fully give up case work until Neal is set free -- he has to finish that, see it through.   Does Neal know that?  Does Elizabeth?  Or perhaps I was misinterpreting what he was saying because I want to hear him say that -- I want him to have come to the realization -- through his earlier attempts to distance himself from Neal and perhaps even more importantly, due to the death of Siegel -- the shock of what it means to lose someone he feels close to, is responsible for --  that he can't really hand Neal over to someone else.   Siegel's death has shaken Peter -- his interest in anniversaries, in marking the important days of his life may come in part from that.    The thought of someday moving to D. C. must remind him of those he'd be leaving behind -- wanting to appreciate them more now, stay close.   Siegel and Neal -- he sent them off together and one of them didn't come back.  He sends Neal and Jones off together -- he's watchful of them, lets Neal have the car.   He's like Papa Bear watching his cubs.  Yet one of the cubs -- the one he "half" trusts -- is lying to him, keeping secrets, planning to cut the ties that bind them -- just as Peter is realizing all over again how much those ties mean to him.


Edited by nicodelaney, Dec 6, 2013 @ 10:00 AM.

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#11316

jediknight

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Posted Dec 6, 2013 @ 9:15 AM

Zod, Bridget Regan is gorgeous.  Sorry, had to be shallow for a moment.

 

I'm loving how much Jones we're getting this season.  And him working with Neal is always a treat.  I loved their gossiping about Peter and Jill, everything about that was awesome.  You could tell Bomer and Atkins were having fun in that scene.  I want to see the outtakes from that scene, just to see how many times they cracked.

 

Hell it's not just Bomer and Atkins in that scene.  You can tell for the most part Dekay, Bomer, and Atkins are having fun this season.


Edited by jediknight, Dec 6, 2013 @ 9:16 AM.

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#11317

Sakura12

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Posted Dec 6, 2013 @ 9:37 AM

What was with Elizabeth this episode? She was more mature in the previous seasons. And I really hate the wife/girlfriend inviting the ex to sit with them then get all pissy about it afterwards. You invited her so suck it up or don't invite her to sit. Then Peter said he was working on a confidential case, so she thinks he's cheating on her and decides to follow him.  I was hoping she'd get shot for that stupidity. She could've blown the whole case. What are they doing to her?

 

I still can't get into Rebecca/Neal if she's an innocent. He's keeps lying to her and getting deeper into his lies. He's a convicted felon and he stole page 13 of the codex. That's not how to start a lasting relationship. I hate Sara but she at least knew the truth about him from the beginning. So this new love interest isn't working for me. 

 

Now the things I did like. I loved Neal and Jones watching Peter and Jill and discussing their relationship. Jill was okay to give us a little insight into younger Peter. I liked the forward movement with Siegel's death. 


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#11318

nyrose

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Posted Dec 6, 2013 @ 10:12 AM

I  liked Jill - she brought an element of realism and depth of feeling that almost seemed to belong on another show.   She brought out aspects of Peter -- including his feelings about Siegel's death -- that added a texture to the story that was in contrast to some of the more nonsensical parts.

 

I liked Jill too. It was nice to see a different side of Peter. The last conversation with the two of them seemed realistic.. He got some answers, she encouraged him to talk to his wife, she could understand him from the perspective of another FBI Agent.  She was someone that knew him well, so that was nice to see someone be there for him, as he is often the one comforting or protecting everyone else. Just love you Peter Burke!!

 

I enjoyed the Jones/Neal scenes figuring out the Boss' and his uncomfortableness and the way they deducted she was an ex. I like having Jones in more scenes this season too. He and Neal have their own fun banter too.

 

The only part I didn't like was the Elizabeth 2.0 character that showed up from Neighborhood Watch at the end. I can understand her being a little jealous, after all it is Peter's ex, but would have liked it if she followed through with what she told Mozzie, that she wouldn't follow her husband... If they were going to have that scenario at the end with the chip, they needed to make Neal convince her to help him with a way to save the day.. they seem to dumb down Neal when they want to make these women shine.. Maybe the writers are afraid to write a woman who may be a little apprehensive or afraid. No, they have to portray every woman as kick ass. I don't buy it. Please writers make Neal the smartest one in the room, that is what we watch for.

 

All in all I liked the episode. I do like Rebecca and how there is such a strong attraction between her and Neal.. Obviously he will come clean with her sooner than later, now that it is inevitable she will see the anklet. I think she has portrayed a pretty decent rare book expert with a incredible attraction to Neal. I enjoy how she gets excited about the codex and Neal..

 

 

And because we love Neal and believe as Peter does that he has a good heart, we give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's also always the con artist and he takes what most of us do in a clumsy way and elevates it to an art form.   He is drawn to Rebecca, and yet their relationship is complicated by the fact that he needs her expertise to help solve the Codex mystery.   It's about trust.   He's working on getting her to trust him -- driving that chisel closer and closer to her heart -- but we know she shouldn't.  And yet, because we think he genuinely is falling for her, we hope she does.   (See how he's involved US in his complicated little web -- how he works on us?)    It's like that maddening thing about his relationship with Peter -- we want them to trust one another -- but who is using whom?   The power seems all on Peter's side -- he has the law behind him, he controls the anklet -- and yet, Neal has powers, too -- the power to manipulate, to charm, to use his vulnerability to appeal to Peter (or Rebecca).   

 

 

I think you stated that very well nicodelaney.  This is the push and pull of White Collar. The con man and fbi agent that we know and love. The characters who cross their paths, don't always come out of it unscathed. These two have quite a history at this point.  We have seen the strong love and concern they have for each other, making decisions that are ultimately explosive.. Peter has covered for Neal so many times, with him questioning who he really is anymore, and trying to get back that lawman consistency (like Jones),Neal has put himself in a miserable situation for Peter's sake, which only seems to be getting worse.. Only good thing is we know it will come to an end with the two back in good graces and truth being told.. time to get Hagen.


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#11319

nicodelaney

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Posted Dec 6, 2013 @ 2:23 PM

nyrose, I was thinking the same thing about the way they used Neal as Elizabeth's "partner" in the silliness at the hotel.   The whole thing was so embarrassing I could hardly look at it.   Neal must be losing his mind.   The real Caffrey would have punched her out before he'd have let her walk in there -- of course, the real Caffrey wouldn't have needed to punch her out, he'd have conned her out of it.   The episode should have ended with Peter reading him the riot act (or perhaps punching him out) for allowing her anywhere near that room.   I think I just want someone to be punched out for the total inanity of the entire case-of-the-week.   I felt sorry for Kim Dickens having to be involved in such a mess.   Her scenes with Peter were great, but it's a shame the writers couldn't come up with a case that let us see the Jill-Peter team solving the case smartly and professionally without having to be rescued by ditzy wife (with her almost equally ditzy partner).   


Edited by nicodelaney, Dec 6, 2013 @ 9:56 PM.

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#11320

indigoSnow

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 1:12 AM

The writing for this week was so all over the place it's hard to even tell what the episode is about. The weak-ass case of the week completely lost me and the emotional continuity between episodes is just bizzare. As usual when that happens, I pick out moments I enjoy and find important, and leave the rest in the recyling bin.

 

Had to laugh at the openning scene, when Peter comfirmed what we all know: he and Neal are basically married with jewelry and anniversary and all. And the scene in the end with Jill re-comfirms that Neal is a major issue in Peter's life that he'll have to deal with sooner or later.

 

Everything Neal and Jones was adorable! They really do have fun together. The only thing missing is Diana. (Miss her so much!) 

 

I liked Jill too and enjoyed the dimensions she brings to light in Peter, especially in their last conversation. (Did NOT like how they dealt with Peter/Elizabeth/Ex though, but not even gonna get into that.) Only wish they'd given her a better case to work with.

 

About time they back to dealing with Siegel, although I appreciate that they did show Peter's concern for this case in several places over the last few episodes. Now I want to know more about how Neal is dealing with his death. But as usual with this show, we only ever see Neal's real emotions in very small and very rare glimpses (twice every season at best). I wonder if we'll get the equivalent of "a mid-season finale" this season? Now that we've made some progress, curious to see when this case will be resolved.

 

Rebecca is beautiful and adorable and has more chemistry with Neal imo than all of the other ladies he's been coupled up with so far (except for Maya perhaps), and I have no idea how to feel about this relationship until we learn more about who she is and how far Neal is taking his con. But we'll definitely find out more next week.


Edited by indigoSnow, Dec 7, 2013 @ 1:16 AM.

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#11321

kj4ever

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 4:50 AM

Well this was an interesting one...Lots of it totally unbelievable of course, but hopefully it is pushing us to get some closure for poor Siegel.

 

Even though I think Elizabeth was totally out of character, I think I see what they were trying to do.  Peter has obviously been holding back his emotions to "protect" her.  I think anyone that has been in a serious relationship knows how that can make you feel.  Elizabeth knows he's been holding something back from her in a relationship that is usually really healthy and transparent.  I know that has made me do some out of character things in the past when I felt it.

 

So Peter's holding something back and then this woman comes along.  I don't blame her for being a bit off put by the whole restaurant scene.  Jill was obviously totally focusing on Peter, her body language was totally telling.  Good job on that scene new director Willie Garson.  I felt uncomfortable for Elizabeth sitting on my couch watching, so I can imagine what she would be feeling during that exchange.  Then for the first time Peter won't share details of the case - well if all that didn't bother her she would be the Mary Sue to end all Mary Sue's.  I like that they made her human.

 

Another interesting thing that I saw in this episode is that Peter has been dreaming of the Washington track for a long time.  Jill knew about it 20 years ago and is surprised that he hasn't accomplished more towards that goal.  No wonder Elizabeth is so excited about it in previous episodes.  I don't think it was because of good baseball seats or a nicer car.  She is seeing her husbands dreams come true.

 

I think I'll just forget about the case of the week.

 

Cooper3?  Is this supposed to mean something to us and I forgot?  With the three sharp camera shots I felt like I should know why this was huge, but for the life of me I can't remember anything that would have to do with it.  Help a sista out?

 

I just don't know what to think about Neal and Rebecca.  If Sarah hadn't come before her I know I would hate it, but now it's pretty much any relationship but her is fine with me, as long as her ass don't come back.


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#11322

SuzWhat

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 6:24 AM

I like this season much better than the last few. I almost gave up on it but could not quit Mozzie. I like it better when it is about Neal and Mozzie with little vignettes of Elizabeth. On a shallow note, why doesn't Neal/Matt look as hot as he does in the opening credits/first season? I can't put my finger on it. Haircut? Is that hat too small?
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#11323

nyrose

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 6:40 AM

All good posts and points.. interesting about the ex bringing up the dreams that Peter had of DC 20 yrs. ago kj4ever.  It really does show how very important Neal Caffrey is to Peter Burke.. He tells Jill, he is on a DC track, and in so many words won't get there until Neal doesn't need him as a handler anymore.. awww.. good point about Elizabeth cheering her husbands dreams on. As far as Neal messing that up, I think Elizabeth has been more than patient too..

 

I felt the awkwardness of Elizabeth with the situation with the ex, not so much at the restaurant, but when she came to the house, and neither Jill or Peter would tell her what was going on.. I know it was suppose to be classified, but a phone call from Jill to Peter would have been nicer.  When a wife feels shut out, it can bring all kinds of out there thoughts and suspicions.

 

 

Cooper3?  Is this supposed to mean something to us and I forgot?  With the three sharp camera shots I felt like I should know why this was huge, but for the life of me I can't remember anything that would have to do with it.  Help a sista out?

I do believe that is the first we've heard of Cooper3. I am wondering now if it relates to the codex or a street or a new character that will be entering the story.. Only thing I do know is that Matt Bomer's character on his guest spot on Glee was named Cooper..

 

I am enjoying Neal and Rebecca. It was interesting watching them talk about the drawing in the codex and she was telling what she knew and he added what he knew about the history and love the way she looked impressed with him.. she will be learning so much more about his knowledge of Art soon, although most likely after a big blow out when she finds out everything.

 

What amazes me in this season is that they created a character who was only used in two episodes, but we honestly care about him, and want to see justice for him.. Well done writers and Warren Kole for that.


Edited by nyrose, Dec 7, 2013 @ 6:51 AM.

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#11324

Snow Apple

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 11:02 AM

Neal was also Mr. Cooper in the WC episode where he pretended to be a teacher at the prep school.  I doubt that's connected to the new clue though. 

 

I must be the only one who didn't like Jill.  I was looking forward to the storyline, but something about her just didn't work.


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#11325

jessied112

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 11:32 AM

I must be the only one who didn't like Jill.  I was looking forward to the storyline, but something about her just didn't work.

 

 

 
I was coming on to say the exact same thing. I just felt off about her. She seems very confident and dominant, that's for sure, and that's not a bad thing. It's just that she came off rather strong on Peter. Maybe it was the editing and the shots that dear Willie Garson used, especially the close ups with all the touching and maybe it was even the actress who decided to stay in close proximity with Peter, but I could understand why Elizabeth wouldn't trust her. It seemed like Jill could have been flirting with Peter and I certainly got the wrong impression on her. I felt like she was written directly to interfere with Peter and Elizabeth's relationship and nothing more. The character didn't work, although the actress did try her best.
 
This whole episode didn't really work for me, to be honest. I just felt annoyed at the case, and I was annoyed with Elizabeth ordering Neal to either follow her or let her go off on her own. Which clearly didn't quite work, as she put herself directly in the line of fire. Elizabeth going into a situation at the end where she could have gotten hurt was seriously stupid and she didn't even own the room, like Neal told her to. She usually is better than this. The Bonnie and Clyde-esque episode worked much better for her because she was more in control. I understand why she didn't trust Jill, but her stupidity throughout the episode ("let's follow Jill even though she's most likely on a case with Peter and I could potentially ruin it") is not her. I didn't even really like Peter with Jill.
 
The only moment I found myself enjoying was Neal and Jones observing Jill and Peter and deducing that they were former lovers. That was really funny and I enjoy seeing Neal working with people other than Peter and Mozzie. And we're getting a bit more closure on Siegel at least. But other than that, the episode left a sour taste in my mouth. I'm still undecided on Rebecca, because she's either innocent and is going to get hurt by Neal, or she's guilty of something and Neal's going to get hurt by her. Either way, I don't see how this relationship of theirs is possibly going to end well.

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#11326

iwanmesomgoodtv

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 1:52 PM

I didn't like this episode either. I get El getting jealous, a bit curious, insecure, worried blah blah blah. What I don't get is her twisting Neal elbow and putting everyone's life in danger. Not to mention her botching the operation could have led to the criminal getting away. She could've still been proactive in a more classy suave way. Poor Neal, even his conman skills fell short before her exteme reaction.

 

The more I think about Rebecca the more I feel that she is indeed as innocent and naive as she seems. She is definitely intelligent but isn't streetsmart. Many bookworms tend to be that way and it's understandable. I think this will be first time in Neal's life that he probably has used someone that he has true feelings for. This may make him see up close that his actions may have consequences that aren't so pretty even if he didn't mean any direct harm. This would be a new territory for him and I'm curious to see what kind of introspection this will lead to.

 

Their chemistry is so genuine and sweet. I think when Neal kissed her so sweetly, not the feverish kind with Sara in the archives, but mindfully and very deliberately made me think that he made a decision then that she deserves to know the truth. Can't wait for the next episode.

 

Too bad they aren't spending enough time exploring Neal. I'd have thought that with only 13 episodes they won't have any fillers. Instead of putting so much emphasis on Peter's turmoil opening up to Elizabeth, I wish more time was spent Peter talking to Neal about Siegel and how each of them is dealing with it. Neal said to Mozzie how he couldn't put Siegel's death out of his mind but then we have seen nothing on that.


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#11327

Jamoche

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 2:13 PM

Maybe the writers are afraid to write a woman who may be a little apprehensive or afraid

 

Unless they're afraid their husband is cheating. Because that's just how women are, apparently.

 

Seriously, she's smart, she knows he does undercover work, she should know that a cheating husband would not go to the trouble of printing out a high-quality copy of a selfie and stuff it into a case file if it weren't, y'know, for a case.

 

But then, there's no reason why the selfie has their pictures in it - from that distance there's no way for the guys in the van to realize that the camera angle didn't include the "happy couple", and even if they did, why not crop that part when printing it? Stupidity all around...


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#11328

Irlandesa

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 2:53 PM

The more I think about Rebecca the more I feel that she is indeed as innocent and naive as she seems. She is definitely intelligent but isn't streetsmart. Many bookworms tend to be that way and it's understandable. I think this will be first time in Neal's life that he probably has used someone that he has true feelings for. This may make him see up close that his actions may have consequences that aren't so pretty even if he didn't mean any direct harm. This would be a new territory for him and I'm curious to see what kind of introspection this will lead to.

 

 

I agree.   I get how having her be a con woman might put them at a more 'equal' level but I don't really see how it'd add much more to the story than a surprise twist.  From a characterization standpoint,, I think having her not know will have more interesting repercussions when it comes to Neal.  It may not lead to a good long term future for them but I like having a good guy character who is not part of the game.


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#11329

nyrose

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 4:14 PM

The more I think about Rebecca the more I feel that she is indeed as innocent and naive as she seems. She is definitely intelligent but isn't streetsmart. Many bookworms tend to be that way and it's understandable. I think this will be first time in Neal's life that he probably has used someone that he has true feelings for. This may make him see up close that his actions may have consequences that aren't so pretty even if he didn't mean any direct harm. This would be a new territory for him and I'm curious to see what kind of introspection this will lead to.

 

I agree.   I get how having her be a con woman might put them at a more 'equal' level but I don't really see how it'd add much more to the story than a surprise twist.  From a characterization standpoint,, I think having her not know will have more interesting repercussions when it comes to Neal.  It may not lead to a good long term future for them but I like having a good guy character who is not part of the game.

 

 

I also agree iwanmesomgoodtv  and Irlandesa. The more I see the character portrayed the more genuine she seems. She is honestly attracted to him, and when she leaned into him, and pulled away saying it wasn't professional, I laughed. I also laughed when she called Mozzie sir and was a little embarrassed to have been kissing Neal when he walked in.  I am still curious if the conversation she had with Seigel will come to light or mean anything.

 

 

Neal was also Mr. Cooper in the WC episode where he pretended to be a teacher at the prep school.  I doubt that's connected to the new clue though

I forgot about that.!

 

As far as Jill goes, the reason I did like her was that she seemed like she really could have been an FBI veteran, no nonsense female agent. She obviously did like being around Peter again, but I am glad she respected him and his marriage, and the two got closure.


Edited by nyrose, Dec 7, 2013 @ 4:19 PM.

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#11330

dogfoot75

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 4:23 PM

I figured out how I'd be okay with Rebecca/Neal. When she came to the FBI offices and Neal spun Agent Groetzner/etc, if instead of that, he could have been like, Peter's busy; I'll get the letter and meet up with you. Then he could still leave Peter with armed Russians and no backup and see her alone, tell her who he is (because he never actually lied; she just assumed), and explain about the Codex - not saying he stole it but that... I don't know. Something. Still say something about the dangerous criminal. Say they have to leave Peter out of it if she asks because Seigal maybe? Then everything can still progress exactly the same but she is not entering into the partnership and relationship under false pretenses. He's still conning her and Peter, but it's not at the same level. At the climax of the season, the truth about him having stolen the Codex will likely come out, but that's a minor lie compared to the probable deathly peril she'll be in. IDK. I shouldn't have to try to fix the season so I don't hate it.

 

This would be a new territory for him and I'm curious to see what kind of introspection this will lead to.

 

I read this, and my first reaction was, "but what about Rebecca? Her life will be in shambles!"... and then I was like, wait, they're not actually real.

 

To be fair, if I hadn't been marathoning the series before now, I probably would have been just as upset about the Nazi loot because it's blood loot, and you'd think genteel criminals like Moz and Neal would stay away from it... but since I saw that whole season in about a week, I didn't have the time to get outraged. It still made me think less of Moz and Neal but not like this.


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#11331

Gigi43

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 5:18 PM

Jones and Neal were the best part of the episode for me. I want more of them two together and way less of Elizabeth ordering Neal around. This is two episodes recently she's gone to him for help, and it still rubs me the wrong way given how she's also taken the stance this season that Neal is selfish and bad for Peter.

 

Jill the character was fine, it did annoy me a little just how much she was all "oh people still eat dinner together?" Who says that? Yes, family life does still exist, a lot. But the ex story seemed tired because of how much its used on TV.

 

When will the episodes with Steven Pasquale start?

 

Did I hear right that Mozzie said "for the most part" you can trust his teddy bear? I'd love for that to be explained. Peter mentioning the day they got Satchmo (nice timing, btw) made me maybe happier than I should have been since it's the day before I got my four-legged family member, and they're probably around the same age (and yes, I treat it like a real anniversay too.)

 

I liked Neal and Rebecca they have nice chemistry. But I wonder, every time Neal has her over does June have to hide now?

 

Neal and Rebecca also are making me wonder about his anklet. He probably always has to hide it, which I've never considered before but that means when Neal is "with" a woman he has to have it on. That's got to be hard to get around. If I were Peter I'd have on several layers of gloves whenever its time to touch it.


Edited by Gigi43, Dec 7, 2013 @ 5:25 PM.

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#11332

nicodelaney

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 8:32 PM

Peter talks in this episode about tying up loose ends -- Siegel's death and his agreement with Neal.   This, at the same time Neal is vowing to cut ties.   

 

At the same time that Peter is trying to deal with his guilt and sadness about the loss of Siegel, the other person about whom he once might have said, "I can't stop thinking about him . . . " is very much alive and up to something -- many somethings, actually.  Neal has broken so many laws since the season began,  and his lies to Rebecca and his impersonation of an FBI agent seem especially egregious to me.   He seems out of control at times -- and he feels that and is struggling to get that control back.   

 

The contrast between Neal, Jones, and Siegel is so interesting -- Peter trusts Jones completely, as well he should.   Siegel was the almost worshipful young agent whose death haunts Peter.   And then there's Neal, who in some ways seems closer, more respectful, more thoughtful of Peter -- but there's a huge chasm there - a disconnect.   He and Peter seem to spend a lot of quality time together -- and yet, and yet . . . whether he tells direct lies, or lies of omission, he's in a sense lying to Peter all the time now.    There's hardly anything about his private life he can talk about with Peter.

 

How long has it been since we've seen Peter in Neal's apartment?   The fact that Neal is developing romantic feelings for a young woman that he can't tell Peter anything about -- that's interesting.  I wonder when Peter will learn about their relationship.  It would seem that unless Rebecca agrees to tell Peter the same lies Neal has told, Neal can never let Peter know about that relationship.  We used to see Peter in that apartment talking with Neal about cases, and I think his absence from a place where in the past we've seen some great Peter-Neal scenes is part of the way the writers are showing the distance between them.  

 

And it is a profound distance.  Neal knows that, and I think Peter is beginning to realize it, too.   Perhaps because he's been distracted by his grief and guilt over Siegel, Peter's been taking the good feeling between Neal and himself for granted, perhaps leaning on it a little, enjoying their conversations, the bantering, without seeing beyond the surface to the fact that Neal is changing, slipping away.   

 

I keep thinking about all the things Neal has done that would be "deal-breakers" for Peter if he ever found out about them.   In the past he's been willing to cover for Neal -- and I think that instinct is still there, but his experience in prison, his new promotion, his plans for his future, and -- maybe most importantly, Siegel's death -- have worked changes in Peter.   Neal sees that -- I think he's a lot less sure of Peter's willingness to go the extra mile for him now.   I think that's one reason he's determined to cut that particular tie -- he knows what Peter would think of what he's doing and he knows Peter wouldn't help him.  Better to cut the ties before Peter does.   His word association for women was "hope" -- I think Neal is feeling a lot of hopelessness about his life, about his chances for reform, for changing his life -- he's trying to let go of those hopes.  Perhaps Rebecca offers a kind of hope to him at this time that he desperately needs.   She may be his lifeline.  

 

If Siegel's death turns out to have something to do with the illegal activities Neal's been involved in  -- how is Peter going to deal with that?    And if something bad should happen to Rebecca due to her involvement in Neal's life -- and Peter finds out even part of how Neal has used her, the lies he's told her -- how will that alter his relationship with Neal?    Of course, if something does happen to Rebecca -- Neal's life may spin completely out of control.  

 

I think they're all headed into a very dark place -- I can't imagine how it can work itself out, and I'm getting to that place in the season where I wonder if the writers will have a resolution to all this that will satisfy the investment of time and thought and emotion the viewers are making in it.    They've failed us before -- I hope they know what they're doing this time.

 

On a much less significant note, at least to me:   I've given up trying to make sense of Elizabeth -- I find I don't like her much anymore.   I go back to that conversation she had with Peter in the Pilot when he was deciding whether to agree to take on Neal as a CI.   She was so much wiser, smarter, classier -- more an adult -- than she seems now.   The show works better when she's a supporting player and doesn't get too involved in the cases.   Her walking into that hotel room was as ridiculous as her walking into the strip club impersonating an FBI agent.   Mozzie was involved in that one -- I can make excuses for Mozzie's craziness, but not for Neal's.   I'm trying to delete from my memory any thought that Neal participated in that business at the hotel.    It must have been Mozzie who was with her -- that would have been the kind of Keystone Cops nuttiness that Mozzie would get himself mixed up in.  Neal was busy elsewhere that day -- perhaps out searching for a certain stained glass window.


Edited by nicodelaney, Dec 7, 2013 @ 10:01 PM.

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#11333

SinkWriter72

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 8:47 PM

I'm still digesting this week's episode, but I wanted to comment in agreement with nicodelaney about Elizabeth.

 

I've struggled with her characterization lately.

 

On the one hand, if they wanted to make a case for it, the writers could eventually show that a lot of this more outrageous or confusing behavior is Elizabeth struggling to deal with the events of the past year, her being kidnapped, Peter getting into a car accident that wasn't really an accident, all that stress that's been building up. In the pilot, I think she was more relaxed because none of this madness had happened yet. Most times, Peter's job was probably more sedate and she could feel safe in that. Neal was in prison for almost four whole years, out of their lives other than the occasional birthday card, so things were probably calm and comfortable. However, Peter bringing Neal into their lives on a more regular basis changed things and after all the violence and frightening and frustrating events that have happened since that decision was made, it's understandable that Elizabeth's usual confidence could be shaken and she finds herself behaving irrationally in a fight to reinsert order and safety into her life and her relationship with her husband.

 

On the other hand... episodes like this week, where Elizabeth is doing stuff far beyond 'emotional anxiety' and veering more into (as Nico says so wonderfully) "Keystone Cops nuttiness," just make her behavior seem so off track to the point of ridiculousness and unbelievability. I found her behavior to be over-the-top. The very idea that she couldn't see (or seem to care) that she might be risking her husband's life, the lives of the other agents working the case, her own life and Neal's, not to mention she might be ruining the foundation of the case and the arrest they were trying to make -- that just drove me insane. It irritated A LOT.

 

I can understand and appreciate the writers not wanting to present Elizabeth as some too-perfect Mary Sue type of character who is always agreeable and perfectly supportive of her husband. I don't want her to be that. I like when characters have faults and struggles and flaws. I like when relationships are shown as not perfect. (That makes the great moments for these characters in their relationships so joyful to watch.)

 

But it would be nice if they could find a happier balance for her character, where she's not the Perfect Wife/Superwoman and she's not the jealous irrational oh-so-foolish idiot that she was this week.


Edited by SinkWriter72, Dec 7, 2013 @ 8:49 PM.

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#11334

nicodelaney

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Posted Dec 7, 2013 @ 9:08 PM

Thanks, SinkWriter72 -- well said.   And I'd like to add, in defense of the Keystone Cops (some spell it Kops), that they did it all so much better -- and you believed all the nuttiness (or wanted to, anyway).   


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#11335

nyrose

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Posted Dec 8, 2013 @ 3:06 AM

I really Hope we get a S6, as ratings for last week went down.. although there was so much else on television too last Thursday. Even though we get some out of whack characters now and again, Yes Elizabeth Burke, I am talking about you.. I still love White Collar and want to see it end properly.. Hopefully USA won't do what A&E did to The Glades, and cancel the show with a HUGE cliffhanger.. The lead in that show Matt Passamore got hired for a new show on USA already. Those fans really got the shaft.

 

Maybe we will get the word of renewal soon , we only have 6 more episodes.. makes me Sad. I am looking forward to Hagen returning and getting caught and finding out what Cooper3 means. What will Peter do when he finds out that Neal made the deal with the Dutchman, so that he could save his badge and get out of jail? Also hoping Rebecca isn't conning Neal, I like my Neal smart. I am guessing there is no more time for fillers...sad that the season was shortened, I do believe it hampered some of the storyline.

 

I have also enjoyed posting on this board with such great people to share thoughts with about our favorite show. Thanks everybody!


Edited by nyrose, Dec 8, 2013 @ 3:08 AM.

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#11336

kj4ever

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Posted Dec 8, 2013 @ 8:58 AM

 

I still love White Collar and want to see it end properly.. Hopefully USA won't do what A&E did to The Glades, and cancel the show with a HUGE cliffhanger.. The lead in that show Matt Passamore got hired for a new show on USA already. Those fans really got the shaft.

 

I think we need to start organizing a letter writing campaign to Netflix in case it isn't renewed...

 

 

On the other hand... episodes like this week, where Elizabeth is doing stuff far beyond 'emotional anxiety' and veering more into (as Nico says so wonderfully) "Keystone Cops nuttiness," just make her behavior seem so off track to the point of ridiculousness and unbelievability. I found her behavior to be over-the-top. The very idea that she couldn't see (or seem to care) that she might be risking her husband's life, the lives of the other agents working the case, her own life and Neal's, not to mention she might be ruining the foundation of the case and the arrest they were trying to make -- that just drove me insane. It irritated A LOT.

 

 

I can't even think about that part of the episode.  I can hand wave stuff these writers do at times, but not this week.  There is no way in hell Elizabeth or Neal would have pulled that stunt.  No way at all.  They are both too smart, obviously way smarter than whoever wrote this week's episode.

 

I act like that whole part of it didn't happen, because if they stayed in character it wouldn't have.  I just can't hand wave it.


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#11337

nyrose

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Posted Dec 8, 2013 @ 12:30 PM

I think we need to start organizing a letter writing campaign to Netflix in case it isn't renewed...

Wow, that would be interesting.. I wonder if the cast would go for that.  My hope is that if they do plan on cancelling that they would give WC an abbreviated proper last season.. even 6 episodes to tie up loose ends.

 

As I think about it and how the show could end, I really have to wonder why they didn't just stick to the case of the week format for Neal and Peter. They have gone so far away from that premise with all the mythology and secondary storytelling. When I see how they got Neal back from the island, I think, that could be possible, Caffrey gets his old deal back and the FBI with his help gets a criminal who has eluded the FBI for 20 years. Forget all the other plot holes, Kramer, Keller etc.. I could live with that.

Now, though, we see something that Neal did that was very much a big deal, tampering with evidence.. he really should be going back to jail. I realize how much he cares for Peter, and how he felt guilty about his father's part in the Senator Pratt saga. Except now the only problem is how does Peter live with the fact that he was released by fraud once he finds out.. he can't wink at it and if he tells anyone he will look complicit.

 

I have questions as to how they will make this right, if they do at all.. We know Peter and Neal have good hearts, and we love them, but have the writers backed themselves into a corner, which will bring about a much less satisfying ending? Just some thoughts... Seems I am way too much into this show... after a while it is true the hand waving gets hard to do.


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#11338

nicodelaney

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Posted Dec 8, 2013 @ 1:50 PM

Last night I watched "Vital Signs" again and I was thinking that what Elizabeth had then that she's missing now is her sense of humor.  I guess it's understandable -- she has been through a lot -- but I hope she finds it again.  It was one of the best things about her.    VS also made me think about Peter visiting the chiropractor's office (Neal and Mozzie's FBI Art Crimes office) and wondering if it made Peter nostalgic for his days as Dr. "Magic Hands" Tannenbaum.
 
A few stray notes about one of the themes of 5.7:   Neal learning new and surprising things about Peter, seeing him from a new perspective in light of all this new information.  Perhaps learning things that make Neal understand himself a little better.
 
~It beings with Neal meeting Peter as he comes out of the "Hair Salon", having had a haircut and shave -- Peter, paying someone to shave him when he laughed at the idea in S4.   And -- if that isn't enough -- in possession of a new suit.   And then learning that the same man who forgot about his 10th anniversary in the Pilot is now all about birthdays and anniversaries (even their own.)
 
~Then he meets Jill.   Just watching her and Peter together gives him an entirely new way of thinking about the man.
 
~Later, in the car, Jones reminds Neal of something he surely already knew, but I love the line:  "Peter doesn't like people fooling with his buttons."   Fooling with his buttons  could be a euphemism for all sorts of thing relating to Peter Burke.
 
~We assume that Siegel's death eats away at Neal and that he must know it troubles Peter more than he talks about, but watching Peter interrogate the man they caught with Siegel's badge must have given him a new perspective on just how deep those feelings are, how much Siegel's death is obsessing Peter.   Neal's attempt to comfort Peter, reminding him he did everything he could, must have sounded hollow even to Neal.  Peter walked away, clearly too emotional to speak, not comforted by those words.  Later, as he watches Peter alone in his office, Neal realizes just how deep this goes.    Neal knows all too well how fierce Peter can be when he's after the truth, when he will not -- cannot -- let go of something, when he's on the trail of a crimiinal.   Siegel -- as far as Neal and Peter and we know -- is an innocent (in much the same way as Rebecca) -- Neal at this point is very much not an innocent.   Neal knows Peter is suspicious of him, is on his trail, too.   Suppose those two trails intersect?    If Peter has any reason to believe that Neal was part of whatever happened to Siegel, what then?  Neal used the word "scared" about how the thief feels when the alarm goes off and the gates come down.  We're not there yet . . . but just how scared is Neal right now -- not only about getting caught, but about losing Peter in the process?
 
~I loved this exchange with Elizabeth -- as they watch Peter and Jill together in the conference room:
 
Elizabeth:   You fall in love with Peter, you can't imagine those feelings ever going away.
Neal:  Really?  Peter Burke?  The man in the conference room?
Elizabeth:  You have no idea.
 
And, yes, of course, she's talking about the love between a man and a woman, but I was thinking as she said it that it might make Neal think a little deeper about how he feels about Peter -- how much he really wants to cut the ties that bind him to Peter -- how much he'd be losing.   Whatever my problems with Elizabeth, I love that once again she's making him see Peter differently -- this is almost a continuation of her S4 lecture about protecting Peter, about how attention must be paid to a relationship that means something to you.   And, in a way, it's a continuation of her "Out of the Box" advice to Neal about Kate . . . about whether you love the idea of someone, or truly love the person that he/she is.
 
 
~Afterwards, Neal has a fascinating conversation with Peter -- a conversation almost too rich, too much to take in at once.  Peter gives him something to think about when he talks of how Elizabeth is when she's upset -- irresistable at her most unavailable.   Then there is Neal's question to Peter about why he's been so unwilling to talk to Elizabeth about the case:  Is it about the case or is it about Jill?   And Peter admits that he can talk to Jill about Siegel's death because she's an agent, because she lost her own partner and still can't shake the guilt and grief.   
 
And then Peter says, El trusts me -- which evokes Neal's comment about trust:  Now you see it, now you don't.   A bit of a self-portrait, that line.   There are so many evocative lines in this episode -- the writing at times is really very fine.   It's a shame they couldn't have found a better way to resolve the case.      
 
~There's one last bit of conversation -- this one Neal did not hear, though it (as with so much else here) brought him to mind:
 
Peter:   You ran.
Jill:  You didn't chase after me.
Peter:  You would have just run faster.
Jill:  You're right.  Would have.
 
I know the situations are different, but it calls to mind a couple of things:  First, the old question of whether Peter was able to catch Neal because Neal allowed it in some way, consciously or not.   He didn't run faster,  He needed to be caught, to be stopped -- and knew somehow that this was the man he wanted to catch him.   Which also brings to mind Siegel almost laughing at the idea that Neal was being kept in custody by that anklet.  If you wanted to escape, that anklet wouldn't stop you.
 
Also there's that phrase, "Would have."   I'll never hear anyone say that in just that way without thinking of Peter Burke.  It's one of his phrases.  Is his use of that phrase perhaps a remnant of his time with Jill?   In 2.1, when Peter and Neal finally talked about the day Kate died, about their conversation on the tarmac, Neal tells Peter he knew that if it had been within his power, Peter would have saved Kate.   "Would have,"  Peter says softly, wanting him to know that it is true.   It is also a sad, oh-so-gentle reminder that they are speaking of something that is over, done, final.   No do-overs.   That he regrets with all his heart that he couldn't -- that he didn't -- save her.   (Just as he now regrets that he didn't somehow save David Siegel.  Will Neal Caffrey be one of those "would haves", too?)
 
Just some thoughts . . . Seems I am way too much into this show . . . 

 

 

Thank you, nyrose.  As always, you say it well.

Edited by nicodelaney, Dec 8, 2013 @ 1:53 PM.

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#11339

nyrose

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Posted Dec 8, 2013 @ 3:28 PM

 

And then Peter says, El trusts me -- which evokes Neal's comment about trust:  Now you see it, now you don't.   A bit of a self-portrait, that line.   There are so many evocative lines in this episode -- the writing at times is really very fine.   It's a shame they couldn't have found a better way to resolve the case.      

 

Enjoyed your whole post nicodelaney and agree with that comment about trust. When I first heard Neal say that, I felt like he was almost wanting to tell Peter the truth actually. It is hard to carry a secret so long, and then sometimes you make comments that you want someone to pick up on so you can relieve your burden.. the longer it goes though, the more you have a sense of self deprecation, thinking you blew it now anyway.

 

Yes, most of the writing in this episode was pretty good, it really was the case resolution that should have been solely FBI related.. Seeing Neal and Jones come to the rescue would have been good to me, with Elizabeth waiting at home waiting for Peter to tell her about his day to open up to her about Jill and Seigel.. I do like that Neal and Elizabeth had some screen time together though, especially at the office. A nice chat at the house with him too would have been good, but not going to the hotel together.. 

 

Anyway WC WRITERS if you ever read this forum, please know I am thankful for the many hours of entertainment you have provided us with this show, even when sometimes we disagree with your character changes or storylines.. We wouldn't have anything to talk about without you. :) 

 

Rewatched this episode after I wrote earlier.. something that stood out to me was when Neal was leading Rebecca to the stain glassed window, he said Trust me, and then she said I never like surprises they never turn out good. So we know that is about to be true for Rebecca, wait till she finds out about Neal.. I loved the way he looked at her and that beautiful kiss.. I do enjoy watching them together. His face really lights up.. Can't wait till next episode.


Edited by nyrose, Dec 9, 2013 @ 12:57 AM.

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#11340

kj4ever

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Posted Dec 9, 2013 @ 12:08 PM

 

Anyway WC WRITERS if you ever read this forum, please know I am thankful for the many hours of entertainment you have provided us with this show, even when sometimes we disagree with your character changes or storylines.. We wouldn't have anything to talk about without you. :) 

 

 

Well it'd be nice to have a little bit less to talk about... :)


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