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#8971

nyrose

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 9:03 AM

Thank you, nyrose, for gathering all that information.


You're welcome nicodelaney! I always wondered about the different writers and their prior experiences..

I have seen comments around the Web, that all the writers were the same for all seasons, but in doing the research, found that was not the case.. S1 had their core group and then S2&3 had their core group. I just liked the feel of the S1 style better. I often wonder what S2 and S3 would have been like if the core group from S1 had stuck around.. would we have learned more about Alex's high up friends?. Would their have been a whiplash "romance" between Neal and Sara? We will just never know.

For example: Alexandra McNally S2&3, previously wrote for Gossip Girl and Melrose Place, hence the soap opera style comes. Although I do think writers can write more than one kind of style. Rashad Raisani wrote Front Man and I did like the pace of that episode.. interesting, a little rougher, seeing Neal get tazed and punched, the more Burn Notice style.

I agree about the writers writing some of our fav's along with some of our worst. i.e. Mark Goffman, Prisoner's Dilemma is also one of my favorites along with Where There's a Will.. but I didn't like Powerplay one bit. Channing Powell's Home Invasion and Copycat Caffrey are two of my fav's but Pulling Strings I hated.

Actually, it wasn't until 2.5 Unfinished Business that seemed to throw the show into a whole new direction, with the unfortunate addition of SARA being FORCED into the story.. (how does one not so good actress have so much influence? and then she brought her fan club with her, who only started watching when she came on :( how frustrating ) I believe her character could have worked sooooo much better if they intro'd her as an antagonist, as they did, but not put any of her backstory into that first episode at all. I also think she could have been gone at the end of Burke's Seven.. As we have all opined before, the characters total acceptance of her and pushing her to the viewers to like her and try to convince us that she was one of the gang, was total epic FAIL.. ridiculous.. and I so agree with Under the Radar being a huge disappointment, as I have said in other posts up thread..

We often hear about the writers' room -- but does such a thing exist?

I do think the writers don't connect as much as they should.. because of obvious details not being paid attention to. I wonder what S3 would have been like if Jeff Eastin wrote more of them or co-wrote more than the 3 that he did.

I do think Jeff Eastin did a particularly good job in Judgment Day in paying attention to details and the timeline. He is the best of the bunch, but since he has the new project, he does need to rely on the others. TV/Film is a business and I am sure they are always looking for their next gig.

I do look forward to S4. I still enjoy WC and appreciate the wonderful cast,(except for HB).

Edited by nyrose, Apr 20, 2012 @ 9:10 AM.

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#8972

nicodelaney

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Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 11:31 PM

I wonder what S3 would have been like if Jeff Eastin wrote more of them or co-wrote more than the 3 that he did.


He does seem to be distancing himself from the show -- sort of like a captain abandoning a sinking ship. Moving on, as he had Neal do in regards to Kate. And who can blame him? As you say, it is a business. Of course, if he "moves on" to a project that is as ill-conceived as his "Sara" project, or his "Neal becoming a junior version of Peter" project, or his "Peter vs. Neal" project, then his future may not turn out as he'd hoped.

And then there's this . . quoting Big Bad Wolf :

Matt's on record as saying he'll stay with the show as long as they want him. I can see he'd feel loyalty to both Eastin and the show for giving him his big break, which is kind of one of the reasons I hope it doesn't drag on too long, and cause him to be unavailable for better projects which would be more beneficial to his career. It would be unfortunate if he lost out on opportunities which would take his career to the next level because he's stuck on a show which is all too often mediocre.


Perhaps it's time to arrange the deck chairs on the Good Ship White Collar, order champagne and caviar for the cast and crew, and aim that sucker right at the nearest iceberg, which, if you look closely, bears a striking resemblance to a certain insurance investigator . . . or we could wait until July 10 and see what delights and/or horrors the writers have in store for us.
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#8973

nyrose

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Posted Apr 21, 2012 @ 3:20 PM

Perhaps it's time to arrange the deck chairs on the Good Ship White Collar, order champagne and caviar for the cast and crew, and aim that sucker right at the nearest iceberg, which, if you look closely, bears a striking resemblance to a certain insurance investigator . . . or we could wait until July 10 and see what delights and/or horrors the writers have in store for us.


LOL-- love the way you put that!! Enjoy your posts nicodelaney!!
I am rooting for more delights than horrors..time will tell.

I had never watched Glee before but tuned in to see MB.. he really is soooooo talented. Love to hear him sing. He and the other actor Darren Criss were both good. It was a good casting decision to have MB play the brother.

Hopefully Matt Bomer will sing a bit more on WC.. the little bit in Countermeasures wasn't enough.

It would be unfortunate if he lost out on opportunities which would take his career to the next level because he's stuck on a show which is all too often mediocre.


I can definetly see Big Bad Wolf's point there!

Edited by nyrose, Apr 21, 2012 @ 3:30 PM.

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#8974

nicodelaney

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Posted Apr 22, 2012 @ 1:54 PM

One of the pleasures of a television show for me is falling into its rhythm, listening to the voices, their banter, the tone in which they speak to one another, the background noises and sounds, the sense of place, the distinctive beat of the show . . . I don't always hear that rhythm or voice with White Collar. I sometimes try to write scenes or stories involving these characters and I find it's hard to hear or channel the sound of the show, even of their voices . . . I can usually get it with Peter and Neal but not always and seldom with any of the other characters. It's one of the reasons I wish for the show to have a writers' room where such things are discussed and refined and someone -- Eastin, since I "hear" these things most in his scripts -- provides a sort of filter, or perhaps becomes a kind of tuning fork for the show.

This is also part of my problem with the long-term storylines or arcs -- this arc needs to be like a thread that runs through whatever else goes on -- there needs to be a singular vision as well as voice -- and in that way there may develop a stronger sense of the show's direction, and a consistency in the storytelling.

Season 2 ended with Peter accusing Neal of stealing the treasure -- he was so sure that Neal had played him, had been playing him all along, perhaps even to the point that Peter wound up killing the one person who might have revealed some of the truth about the musicbox/Uboat mystery. Season 3 ended with Peter recommending that the commutation board set Neal free. If it had been written tightly and well and without all the clutter of special episodes and "gotcha" glares across the FBI office and soap opera and "fun with the Burkes" and bachelor parties and strip clubs and Sara being shoved down our throats -- perhaps S3 could have been great -- a study in how that relationship was repaired, how Peter came to believe that it was time for Neal to be set free, how Neal made a decision about what he wanted from life, how Peter came to understand more about himself -- about mistakes he had made -- and how important Neal is to him. There was so much clutter, though -- and an unevenness in the writing that to me comes from a lack of focus or attention to the "big picture." In a few episodes you wouldn't have known Neal and Peter were at odds -- in others, you couldn't understand how they could work together at all. And of course this was true with other characters as well.

Peter's relationship with Kramer was interesting to me . . . that conversation in the Burkes' living room in "Countdown" was great. I've watched that scene so many times -- so much going on there. In the other episodes where Peter begins to understand what Kramer is up to -- and how much he's changed from the man Peter knew as mentor and trusted friend -- and Peter begins to understand what is at stake and what he must do to save Neal . . . I just think that Peter learned so much about himself in all of that and I'm not sure that was as clear as it should have been. I liked "Judgment Day" despite some of its leaps (pun intended) in logic and sense . . . but this show almost always makes me want something subtler and finer. For one thing, we're always left with all those "wait a minute, how could this be?" sort of plotholes to distract us. But also, as we've said before, they don't always bother to do what they did so well in that final shot of Neal on the plane -- let a moment play out, let it go, be quiet, let the actor do his work . . . while we remember and consider where we've been and how far we've come.

The writers come so close at times -- in fact, there are times when they absolutely nail it. And those times keep me coming back, hoping for one more scene where it's great, or "near great" anyway. It's like being on a treasure hunt -- there's treasure there somewhere -- maybe what we need is a map to help us clear a path through the clutter to the real treasure, which for me is the relationship between Peter and Neal.

Edited by nicodelaney, Apr 22, 2012 @ 1:57 PM.

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#8975

natyanayaki

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 2:06 PM

Re-watched the pilot for the first time in years

Peter: I work hard, I do my job well and I don't have a 10 million dollar apartment, with a view of Manhattan that I share with a 22 year old art student while we share espresso.

Neal: Why not?


man I miss those characters, or I guess I should say that heart and soul of those characters. I know that they have to change, life events, their interactions with each other and each other's circle has to change them but re-watching I just feel that basis of the characters, what gave them so much potential has changed.

I'm fine with Neal seeing things from a different perspective, from Peters perspective, I wish we'd gotten more of that from Peter but I miss the Neal who could hold his own and be "right," or at least the Neal who could justify his opinion. I wish we hadn't lost so much of Neal, the cold, calculating drifter who saw the world as he wanted to see it in a given situation. The Neal who could turn off his emotions on a mark, the Neal who could convince himself "they" deserve to be stolen from. I wish we'd had a glimpse of Neal, the jackass who would use Sara, sleep with her, to get closer to her, for some reason (and I wish Sara had been someone who'd played along, seeing through him the entire time, hoping only to retrieve the Raphael).

Most of all, it reminded me of how much I absolutely adore the actors (yes, I do even kind of like Hilarie Burton but no where near as much as the rest of the cast) especially Matt. He is such a nuanced, mulch-faceted actor, so expressive, articulate and gracious in "real" life...in season 1 I didn't feel his talent was being wasted, but most of season 2 and the episodes of season 3 that I've seen (I've seen many more episodes than I had before) sigh. I want him to have this job, I want them all to have this job, to be actors with steady jobs but I really hope that either season 4 will somehow continue with potential of season 1 (I doubt it will, I hope I'm surprised), or that all these guys will find steady, well-paying jobs else where. Jobs that are fun, deep and showcase all of these guys and girls' charm and talent.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but I had to vent! I really miss my genius Neal who could do complicated math problems mentally, who allowed Matt to display a decent percentage of his talents. I miss Peter who could advise, without being over-bearing, who had his morals, believed in them, practiced them but seemed to know that even though the world should be a certain way, that good and bad should be easily decipherable, it's not always so.

Matt's on record as saying he'll stay with the show as long as they want him. I can see he'd feel loyalty to both Eastin and the show for giving him his big break, which is kind of one of the reasons I hope it doesn't drag on too long, and cause him to be unavailable for better projects which would be more beneficial to his career. It would be unfortunate if he lost out on opportunities which would take his career to the next level because he's stuck on a show which is all too often mediocre.


I'm not surprised that he has said that, and I really do think he means it. He is and extremely humble, and thankful person (or at least he comes off as such), and regardless of what the show has become it does give him steady work and a steady paycheck (though, you know Matt if you became the really famous movie star, with fun musical roles, and really deep gritty roles, the type of roles you deserve you'd have more time to spend with your babies!!! -yes, I know he'll never read this, but I had to put my plea out there) which as an actor is hard to come by. I mean, unless one becomes extraordinarily famous for their work, talent, charity and to a lesser degree/as a result personal life (George Clooney, Angelina Jolie, Leonardo DiCaprio) a movie career is hard to maintain (don't get me wrong, I think Matt is fully talented, gracious enough to pull this off, but he needs that role and yes I think participating in 8 will help. DLB should totally cast him in a biopic!) OR someone needs to become an over-rated actor, know more for his/her hairstyles than capability (Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Lopez etc) and THAT just isn't Matt. Ahh, so with my ramble what I mean is, I can totally understand why Matt would choose to stay on this show for reasons other than just being thankful. Plus, 4-5 seasons is a good run, and despite the writing Matt does get to showcase his talent at times (he did in season 1)...but ahh I got off track. What I originally meant to say, is just because he said that publicly doesn't mean that if a better opportunity came along that he (or should I say, his manager) could negotiate to either move the show's season around, make it so he's less present on the show, or even convince them that they are done with the show/with Neal. I fully believe that Matt meant what he said, because despite all the Matt bashers out-there, I don't think he's completely fake but I don't think he'd miss out on an opportunity he really wanted because of the show, nor do I believe that his family would allow him to do so.

Having said that, isn't it possible that Matt doesn't want the level of recognition/fame that he probably does deserve? I know he wants his work to be recognized, his work to be appreciated, but really the level of fame he deserves (based off of his talent AND looks because that combination in the being Matt Bomer is HUGE) has a lot of potentially negative (or what I believe Matt would see as negative) results. Yeah, he'd be able to boost charities he believes in (he's gone on record saying that he'd use his name, whatever little fame he has to help any charity out) but it could also mean that he'd be hounded by the media. He's wonderful at not giving too much attention to the stalker paparazzi, while also treating them extremely kindly, and with respect (as if he realizes that they are doing their job, and it actually isn't all that easy to stand outside building for hours hoping to run into a hot topic celebrity) but it doesn't mean that he'd want even greater focus on himself, on his family, his very young children.

Maybe that's another reason he'd want to stick with the show, so that he has the freedom to slowly build up his career in a way that his work is considered interesting, but not so much his personal life. So that he has more control? Either way, I do believe Matt's smart, he knows what he's doing...I hope, I think.

Edited by natyanayaki, Apr 23, 2012 @ 2:06 PM.

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#8976

Common

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 2:44 PM

Bomer is likely on a 7 year contract, the standard length. So, he's in for the long haul unless WC is cancelled.
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#8977

natyanayaki

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 3:04 PM

I'm not sure why so many consider the "standard" to be a 7 year contract, the standard at the pilot tends to be 5 years the basis of which came from the 100 episode rule (syndication) though often early in the run (before re-negotiation) IF a show is successful they might modify the contract to 7 years or whatever. On cable networks (TNT, USA) I believe that syndication rules are slightly different, I believe the same "100 episode" rule might not exist so the "standard" contracts tend to be different from "basic" cable shows. At least that's what the TV people explained in lecture.

Eta: I forgot, syndication standard in the US has also apparently been reduced to 88 episodes rather than 100...and also depends on the type of show. The 100 episode rule tended to be based more on "dramatic," primetime, broadcast shows, while less so sitcoms and niche shows (and TNT/USA/Syfy shows are niche shows). It also might not be applied to broadcast cult-shows as much, because of the type of following --how well they do in syndication (but those shows often don't have trouble reaching 100 episode mark)...

Edited by natyanayaki, Apr 23, 2012 @ 3:13 PM.

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#8978

Common

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 5:30 PM

Five years used to be the standard, natyanayaki. It's been increased to 7, which is among the reasons that Steve Carrell was on the Office for as long as he was. I think it's bordering on unfair, because damn, 7 years is a long time to be stuck in a one job, especially if your star is rising in your field.
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#8979

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 6:27 PM

Funny, the industry peeps who'd come to my lectures (back in 2009) all talked about 5 years. Most of them were from Cable and Subscription networks though. Or maybe it was after that it was increased? I still think so much depends on network and genre though, as well as how savvy the managers are. Do you know why the increase from 5 to 7?

I think it's bordering on unfair, because damn, 7 years is a long time to be stuck in a one job, especially if your star is rising in your field.


Yes, it is a cursed blessing. While it forces a rising star to stay with a show, it does provide a steady paycheck, but also I think it probably allows a stars' fame to stabilize to a degree, let his/her fame establish (and sometimes that isn't even enough time). Also, I guess it's a way to look after the non-rising stars, crew etc. I actually think it's often better for actors on broadcast networks (ABC, CBS etc) to allow their television fame to calm down before attempting a serious-ish film, at least depending upon the type of work they want to do, type of fame/recognition they want.

When is season 4 supposed to premier?
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#8980

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 5:08 PM

7 years is a long time. I can't even see the show lasting that long, so Bomer might be out sooner that we'd think.
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#8981

nyrose

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 7:16 PM

When is season 4 supposed to premier?


July 10th is the S4 premiere
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#8982

natyanayaki

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Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 12:00 AM

Thank you!
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#8983

Big Bad Wolf

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Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 6:40 AM

Eastin tweeted recently that he "has Matt for 2 more years," so I'm now guessing Matt signed for 5 years at the time of the pilot being picked up, rather than the 7 years which seems to be standard for network shows.

because despite all the Matt bashers out-there, I don't think he's completely fake

Wow, where have you been reading? Because although I've seen trolls round and about I've not really seen anyone implying that Matt is fake - it's actually surprised me how few negative comments he gets, even in the depths of the cess pool that the internet can be. Where I have seen negative comments, they tend to be from bigots picking up on the gay thing (yawn), or people saying he isn't talented or is only successful because of his connections (obvious nonsense), but not accusations of fakery (thank goodness, because honestly, even more obvious nonsense).

Maybe that's another reason he'd want to stick with the show, so that he has the freedom to slowly build up his career in a way that his work is considered interesting, but not so much his personal life. So that he has more control? Either way, I do believe Matt's smart, he knows what he's doing...I hope, I think.

Just totally personal opinion, obviously, but there could well be an element of truth to this. I say this because he's been building up his resume veeery slowly, taking on movie roles that are of increasing stature at an extremely measured pace. He (and his management) may feel that slow and steady wins the race. I tend to think they could well be right.

Edited by Big Bad Wolf, Apr 25, 2012 @ 6:48 AM.

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#8984

natyanayaki

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Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 4:16 PM

That would fit what was said in that class I took, including syndication stats of "niche" shows.

The negativity I've seen directed towards Matt, specifically the claim that he is completely fake, actually tends to come from certain "gay blogs," (bloggers and commentators). If you're familiar with Johnny Weir, it's similar to the criticism he used to receive (and for all I know, still receives?) for not announcing that he's gay (though, it's perhaps slightly different since it would have been less obvious to a casual fan of Matt's than Johnny's), the same close-minded, judgmental and in some ways, bigoted notion that even if someone is out to their family, friends and industry people that if they are a celebrity it does not count unless they explicitly state their sexual orientation. I don't like to say too many harsh words for such criticizers though, because I do think it comes from a place a pain, and a desire to have as many out lgbtq celebrities as possible in order to further gay rights and acceptance, but the fact is they don't realize that such judgments are counterproductive. In some ways, Matt's approach was ideal, he never made a big deal about his sexual orientation, he didn't display it constantly (I hate the word flaunt), but he didn't hide it (or hide from it); his approach illustrates that one can be gay, be happy, fulfilled, successful without that defining the person. SO doesn't have to define anyone, I wish some people would realize that (sorry about the vent, but I don't like to get into it on these blogs).

I also want to clarify one thing, I made the statement that I don't believe he's completely fake and by that I didn't mean that I think he's mostly fake. I believe he's as genuine as one can be given his situation: his level of fame, his employment status and his personality. I think very few people are capable of being 100% genuine on camera, I'm not even sure that there are many people who can be 100% genuine at all times even with the people they're closest to.

Big Bad Wolf, I agree with your opinion regarding slow and steady and you actually touched upon a reason I think that Matt (and his team) may have taken this approach on purpose. As one of the criticisms of Matt you listed that you've seen the claim that he's only employed because of his connections, I actually think the fact that he knows so many people, and has many different connections, yet isn't the super famous, big star, who banks solely on his looks is an indication of that approach. Matt's looks alone, make him extremely bankable, in the short run. If that's what he was after, he'd probably have taken that approach...

Anyway, I was thinking about season four, and I realize I kind of wish that Neal and Mozzie didn't have a portion of the treasure to fall back on, I don't want to see them live the high live. It would have been nice to see them fall onto their roots, see Neal work from the bottom up; I really don't believe that we saw that in the flashback episode. It would have been nice to see Neal re-build that criminal side of himself again, re-build that backbone, commit a few confirmed crimes that the authorities would be unable to prove partially because he needed to do so, but mostly because he wanted to do so.
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#8985

nyrose

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 2:21 PM

For whoever might be interested:

Looks like Agent Fowler and Agent Matthews have some interesting projects ahead out of our White Collar World.

Anna Chlumsky will be on a new Comedy Series called "Veeps" on HBO, co-starring with Julia Louis Dreyfus.
http://www.vogue.com...-anna-chlumsky/

Noah Emmerich is doing an FX pilot called "The Americans" among other projects.
http://www.deadline....ood-ties-movie/

I would love to see both of them back on WC for an episode or two..!
I don't have HBO but will get a chance to see Noah Emmerich on FX at least..
Anyone else like Noah Emmerich's voice? IMO he plays a good foil/villain!
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#8986

nyrose

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Posted Apr 29, 2012 @ 4:11 PM

Found this yesterday on Fan Forum.. I REALLY MISS ALEX!!! At least Gloria Votsis is still in touch with the WC writers. Hope we will see her again in Season 4.

Great picture of her and Jim Campolongo. On his FB page: April 25, 2012

http://www.fanforum....15/index12.html

Edited by nyrose, May 2, 2012 @ 8:16 AM.

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#8987

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 10:20 AM

I've been thinking about the name Neal will be using on the island . . . Victor Moreau. Of course, Moreau was Kate's last name (too much of a coincidence and way too dangerous for Neal to use, but that's just another of those odd things about this show) . . . but are we also supposed to think of Jules Verne's novel The Island of Dr. Moreau? Or perhaps the 1933 film version, The Island of Lost Souls?

That's a pretty gruesome story . . . the shipwrecked man who winds up on an island where a mad scientist is experimenting on animals, trying to give them more human qualities . . . but it's also a story about identity, about what it means to be human, to be civilized. The hero eventually makes his way back to civilization but finds he can no longer be around his fellow humans because he sees too much in them of their animal instincts, their animal natures. He spends more and more time alone, studying astronomy (another favorite WC subject).

As for the first name, Victor . . . wasn't that the first name of Dr. Frankenstein? I wonder if Mozzie's new name is Igor? Of course, if you think about it, Neal is really the "monster" and Peter and Mozzie the two mad scientists determined to make him over in their own image.

See, it's only the end of April and here I am in the company of Drs. Frankenstein and Moreau, conjuring up nightmares. Who knows where my speculation and internet browsing will take me by July 10? Perhaps by then I'll have discovered a female mad scientist in literature -- the evil Sara -- as determined as Peter and Mozzie to create her own version of Neal. Three humans interfering with nature -- always a dangerous idea.

Another dangerous idea -- a fan of the show with too much time to think. I need to find a book to read -- don't worry, I'll stay away from the works of Jules Verne and Mary Shelley. It would be nice to read a story about an island -- no, not Lord of the Flies -- I do have some sense. How about Stevenson's Treasure Island -- that sounds more like our Neal, doesn't it? I can just see Mozzie with a peg leg, an eyepatch and a parrot.
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#8988

natyanayaki

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 3:38 PM

They've been to events together before (as fans who follow Matt's career would know -though probably not the laid back fan which is why the "speech" was significant and so well done) but I had to post it because the picture is so adorable! They seem less reserved! CLICK ME (Just news that Matt and Simon attended an event together).

Is it possible that Neal chose the name because he knew he'd be caught, and had a pretty good inkling of how long it would take for the FBI to zero in on the name?
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#8989

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 5:51 PM

Is it possible that Neal chose the name because he knew he'd be caught, and had a pretty good inkling of how long it would take for the FBI to zero in on the name?


If I remember correctly, Neal didn't choose the name. Mozzie arranged for their new identities and he had no choice about the names either (or so it seemed). The name "Moreau" did give Neal pause, but there was no other choice. I wondered at the time if there was some sort of warning there -- that maybe the person who sold Mozzie the papers and documents in that name was an FBI plant -- I even gave thought that maybe it was a little private warning to Neal from Peter, though that would of course have been impossible -- though, with the logic that is sometimes used on this show, I suppose it's as likely as anything else. Perhaps if Kate ever returns from the grave, she can explain it to us -- maybe she's the one who set it up -- a little gift to let him know she still loves him.

But in the end I suppose it's just another of those WC oddities that will never be referred to again -- perhaps it's their idea of a red herring or a bit of misdirection. Perhaps they're just being cute. Perhaps it's simply meant to give Neal chances to look wistful every time he uses the name. Of course, why would he feel anything since he's so "over" Kate? As completely as they tried to do away with her in the campaign to inflict Sara on us, you'd think they'd never want to refer to her again. Yet, here we are.

Edited by nicodelaney, May 1, 2012 @ 5:56 PM.

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#8990

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 11:04 PM

Heh, I totally forgot that their covers were told to us in the last finale, ooops. For some reason, I thought that you got the name from spoilers or something, I didn't get much sleep last night or any to be exact.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a cutesy name, that won't be detected but a part of me, the part of me that loves this show, that misses the essence of all the characters from season 1 wants to believe that Mozzie had the name "reserved" so to say in the event that Neal ran with Peter's blessing. It was at Kate's father's grave that Mozzie and Peter first came to an understanding. Where did they first meet? I'm drawing a blank, was it at Kate's father's grave?
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#8991

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 3:03 AM

You would think that master con artists would want to stay away from using a name that law enforcement would immediately connect to them. Isn't that the point of getting a new identity? He might as well have used the name Caffrey or Halden. And when they bought those identities Mozzie was in full greedy con artist mode -- he certainly wouldn't have bought an identity that would lead Peter to them. This was the same Mozzie who lured his "friend" Elizabeth away from the Burke home so Neal could break in and steal the manifest. Neal is the one who does stupid things, but even he was hesitant to take the name Moreau. The motivations of these people are so muddled that it's hard to understand why they do many of the things they do. Maybe that's what comes from having so many different writers.

I've been watching those early season 1 episodes again -- and I keep being surprised to find Mozzie saying nice things about Peter -- though of course he had yet to meet him. Some of that was probably just said to help Neal settle into his new role as a C. I., but it's so different from his later anti-suit remarks, and from his great fear of the suits, being unable to step into the FBI offices. I have no idea who he's supposed to be anymore. Season 3 pretty much ruined that character for me. I don't know why Neal sees him as a loyal friend. Neal's the one who is loyal -- to a fault at times.

Edited by nicodelaney, May 2, 2012 @ 4:05 AM.

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#8992

Amery19

Amery19

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 7:29 AM

You would think that master con artists would want to stay away from using a name that law enforcement would immediately connect to them. Isn't that the point of getting a new identity?

To be honest, that scene with the alias Moreau was a VERY big nail in the coffin for this show for me. (I may have posted this at the time, so forgive me if I'm being repetitive...) But I've had law enforcement officers tell me that when someone has gone underground, the LEOs look first for riffs on the real names of the fugitive and/or their closest friends/relatives, then look for plain Jane names like Paul Johnson and John Anderson. The wise con picks a name that has NOTHING to do with him/herself and which is sufficiently "real" so as to be plausible. So what's entirely unbelievable to me is that Neal or Mozzie would choose a name that would send up immediate red flags to Peter and Moreau would most certainly do that. So either Mozzie wants Neal to get caught or neither of them are the world-class conman we've been told they are.
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#8993

nyrose

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 8:53 AM

If I remember correctly, Neal didn't choose the name. Mozzie arranged for their new identities and he had no choice about the names either (or so it seemed).


The names were suppose to have their own history, fictional characters in the system. I remember the scene at the apartment when Neal told Mozzie he wouldn't use a name of a deceased baby.. (wonder if he doesn't like that because that is how his identity of "Neal Caffrey" came to be?)Peter said he couldn't find anything on him before age 18... He said to Sara in Stealing Home, when she asked him if Neal was his real name that that was a long story.. so who knows?

I do wonder why they used the name Moreau for Neal. Is it suppose to be that we are meant to remember that Kate is always going to be a part of him?(even if he did have a break neck speed relationship with Sara, while still looking for the love of his life's killer).

When the man gave Mozzie his name, he just said Bob..no mention of a last name. We will have to see how they find them in S4..

Edited by nyrose, May 2, 2012 @ 9:08 PM.

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#8994

nicodelaney

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 10:33 AM

Sometimes I get weary of all the things Neal is "sensitive" about. How did this so-called world class con artist survive with all these little conditions he places on everything? The writers want to have it both ways -- he's Mr. Squeaky Clean, Mr. Sensitive, Mr. Wonderful, Mr. Romantic -- but he's also a coldblooded con artist who can lie and cheat his way into stealing your stuff and never mind the consequences for anyone who is in his way. I guess that's why Neal is so loyal to Mozzie. Neal can go on pretending (even to himself) that he's the nice guy when in the background he's got Mozzie to do the not-so-nice things that he's too "sensitive" to do. Convenient. Mr. Denial. Maybe that's why Neal would have been willing to serve a long prison sentence for Mozzie's crime of stealing the Nazi loot. Maybe that's why Mozzie didn't seem too grateful to Neal for the sacrifice -- it was his due, after all. I wonder if Neal's high-minded sensitivity will kick in when it comes to living off the Nazi loot.
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#8995

natyanayaki

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 11:22 PM

The thing is, Neal wasn't always this sensitive, I remember in season 1 he'd clarify at times that he "hated criminals like that because now he's on the FBI's side" and we'd often get the feeling that he felt bad for many of the victims either because they reminded him of Kate, or just because he was on the FBI's side. Now, if I remember correctly, it often seems that Neal doesn't make that distinction. We see him admire some of the criminals, but it just doesn't have the same punch. Maybe it was planned, maybe it was one of the many happy season one accidents but I remember in season 1 that I could feel that Neal felt what he wanted to feel, what he needed to feel in order to get something done. I remember in the season 1 episode with the woman from SVU, when Neal was conning the woman how Neal's demeanor changed gradually with each lie-not just because of his desperation- but as if he was telling himself mentally, forcing himself to believe what he was saying. He didn't need to convince himself that "she deserved it" (because of course she did!) but he needed to be more convincing, so he needed to believe. I also remember, throughout that season that Neal realized how hypocritical he was, enough to joke about it, but not enough to really acknowledge it (I wanted him to acknowledge it so badly, acknowledge it but move on after convincing himself not to let it affect his work). Now, it's almost as if he believes the fantasy, that he's conned himself. But this new version of Neal, the genius who wanted to become a cop (not live up to his true potential), who didn't choose to be a con because he enjoyed being a con (it seemed that original recipe Neal enjoyed that life) I wonder if he ever was capable of being that guy. It just seems that now we're supposed to believe Neal's main driving factor was to somehow gain his father's attention without gaining his father's attention or something? UGH! I don't really know, I wish that present-day Neal was still season 1 Neal, changed slightly in the way that events change people, but a totally new incarnation of the character.
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#8996

nicodelaney

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 4:08 AM

Good post, natyanayaki.

One of the things I love about season 1 is watching Neal push Peter just a little too far and Peter reacting strongly (arguing with him, or reminding him of his tenuous situation with the FBI) and Neal, almost like a kid who knows he's pushed Mom too far, reacting with a little fear in his eyes and then changing course, sometimes in the middle of a sentence, adjusting his tone or admitting he was wrong or doing whatever he has to do to bring the balance between them back to a state of equilibrium. That kind of desperation was interesting -- not only in terms of their relationship, but in giving you a look at how quickly he could find just the right tone of voice or attitude that would put someone at ease, defuse what might become a bad situation. The con artist at work, yes, but because this time the prize wasn't a Degas masterpiece or a rare diamond, this time the prize was his freedom and his chance to find Kate . . . he was also that scared boy. There was always such a difference between Neal with Peter and Neal away from Peter, especially with Mozzie.

I have often thought that one of the most significant turning points of the show came at the start of season 2 when Mozzie and Peter met on those park benches and negotiated a truce -- when they agreed that they did have an area of mutual concern and that it might be best for Neal if they could work together, at least on occasion, until Neal was stronger. (Season 3 began with a truce between Peter and Neal -- though that wasn't so much negotiated as declared unilaterally by Peter, though Neal did say at the end of that scene that his door was always open).

There was a softening of the Mozzie-Peter relationship throughout much of season 2. And then there was Neal facing down Fowler with a gun and almost losing Mozzie and almost losing Peter -- and I think those events shook him to the point that he thought more seriously about the things Peter was saying to him, about changing his life, even to the point of getting involved with a woman Peter practically chose for him. The only way I can justify Sara's presence on the show is to see Neal's involvement with her as a symptom of how desperate Neal was at that time to transform himself into a junior version of Peter. He was trying to keep everyone safe, to keep Peter and Mozzie and everyone else he cared about safe . . . to keep that scared boy inside himself safe.

All through season 3 we were made aware that Neal was fighting this internal battle to choose between Mozzie's way of life and Peter's, and that from the very start of the season he was leaning toward staying. But at the same time he kept letting Mozzie lead the way, doing whatever he was asked to do -- even when you knew he was conflicted about it -- to help Mozzie hide the treasure and learn what the FBI knew about it. But Neal didn't have an ally then -- he was out there on his own -- he couldn't confide in either Peter or Mozzie -- they were lost to him. Mozzie's choice to steal the treasure and make Neal an accomplice had isolated Neal. Neal was trying to find a way to keep both of them in his life, not wanting to choose. Neal the juggler, the tight-rope walker. Except the characterizations didn't always support that from episode to episode -- this is when I really began to wonder if these writers ever talked to one another or if there was any sort of plan at all.

Sometimes I wish season 3 had ended with Neal escaping alone -- free of both Peter and Mozzie, at least for awhile. Then maybe he could figure out who he wants to be -- not a junior version of either of them, or of his real father. But of course, he wouldn't be free -- he'd be a hunted man. It's what Peter finally came to understand -- he needs to be free so that we -- but most of all, so that Neal -- can see who he really is.

Except -- why have I fallen into the trap of thinking of Neal as a person? He's this plaything the writers have given us, subject to their whims and poor decisions and various ideas of who he is. Maybe it would be better to wait until the series finally ends and see it all at once -- maybe then it would make some kind of sense.

Edited by nicodelaney, May 3, 2012 @ 4:28 AM.

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#8997

natyanayaki

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 11:47 PM

You know, I didn't see the fear in Neal in season 1, there was a slight weariness because Peter essentially controlled his destiny, but the greatest thing about season 1 Neal was that he wasn't so apologetic. He could give back to Peter, he could explain his perspective and be right, even though he was wrong. He was smart enough to remember that Peter's world -Peter's ideal world- was as much a fantasy and thus as wrong as Neal's ideal world and he used that in his favor. He held his own, he was an individual. That wasn't the case later on, Neal lost his smarts, he was no longer the logical genius who could hold his own or do complex mathematical problems in his head, he lost his sense of self, he lost his faith, his dreams. During season 2 I wanted to believe it was because of Kate's death, but after the episode in which Peter had been kidnapped, in which in a span of an hour Neal got closure and was ready to move on with his life away from Kate I realized it was just the writers' inability to write a true emotional arc, while being true to the original character. And the loss of Neal the individual, Neal the independent, Neal the logical genius is the greatest problem with the show.

I'm not a huge Peter fan, I like Tim, and I like Peter but I'm in general not a fan of watching characters who have a fixed sort of mentality except to see how they are affected from more ambiguously thinking characters and I'd honestly be all for watching the Neal-Mozzie show, having said that for all my criticisms of Peter, for all my whining about his preaching, the fact that for much of season 2 and 3 he seemed to become more and more stern, Peter truly wasn't the problem. The problem was, there was nobody to balance Peter, nobody to illustrate to Peter that the world isn't as simple as Peter wants it to be, and that it probably shouldn't be as simple as that either. I want to believe that Neal simply lost his self-worth after losing Kate, that he has to gain it again, that he will gain it again, but I doubt that it's likely.
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#8998

nicodelaney

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 12:52 PM

To be honest, that scene with the alias Moreau was a VERY big nail in the coffin for this show for me.


I have Amery19 to thank for the image of White Collar's coffin. I see it surrounded by flowers in June's living room, or perhaps in Neal's apartment. I think June would look stunning in sexy mourning clothes -- the kind of thing she might have worn singing in the hottest jazz club in town. Elizabeth could handle the arrangments for the wake. Mozzie would look dapper driving the hearse -- later he would work the crowd, picking the pockets of mourners. Peter could wear that classic suit that he's worn for every other important occasion in his career and Neal would be stylish in formal suit, hat and gloves. Satchmo and Bugsy would sport black collars. Jones and Diana would step forward and present a wreath in the shape of the FBI emblem.

Of course, the long line of fans still pounding nails in the coffin would be a distraction, not to mention the anguished cries of the writers and Sara from inside the coffin, begging (in vain) for mercy.

I've been reminiscing about my own list of nails in that coffin . . . there's one that came right at the end of season 3 that I don't think I obsessed about nearly enough. It was Neal cutting off the anklet. Why was he suddenly wearing the S1 anklet? Lazy writing is why. The stupid writers couldn't figure out how to let him quickly get free of that anklet without amputating his foot, and then they remembered how stupid and gullible the fans of this show are and decided to change anklets on us. The dummies will never notice and if they do notice they won't care. Can't you just hear them discussing it? And of course they're right -- look at all the other things we've let them get away with. Maybe we ought to be in that coffin with them, nailing it shut from the inside. After all, we've rewarded their awful behavior by coming back week after week and season after season. We must like being treated this way.

See, I told you this would get bad . . . this waiting, this incessant need for this show to return and astound us with even more nail-worthy plotholes and death-defying leaps of logic and character development. At least I'm no longer on the Island of Dr. Victor Frankenstein Moreau and the other Lost Souls -- now I'm down at Mozzie's Mortuary, choosing a coffin. Somewhere that other Satchmo is playing When the Saints Go Marching In . . . and the funeral procession is making its way through the streets of Manhattan, past the FBI headquarters and finally across the bridge to Brooklyn . . . Sara and the writers are still whimpering but a party atmosphere has invaded the crowd (perhaps the result of a few bottles of wine being passed from hand to hand) and now we're starting to dance and sway and June and Neal are about to sing . . .

Maybe if you get drunk enough, this show might actually start to make some sense. I mean, I didn't actually want Neal to cut off his foot, did I? Of course not. Perhaps the S2-S3 anklet was in for a tune-up and they had to resort to the older model. No, that doesn't make sense -- Neal was wearing the newer model earlier on the same day. Oh, wait -- I know -- there was a factory recall -- dangerous radiation leaking from some models -- and an emergency HAZMAT team found Neal and had him change anklets before the end of the show. Due to time constraints, they didn't air that particular scene. Whew! Glad I figured that out -- now there's one less nail to pound into that damned coffin.

Edited by nicodelaney, May 7, 2012 @ 12:48 AM.

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#8999

nyrose

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Posted May 8, 2012 @ 10:50 PM

Gloria Votsis is now on Twitter. @gloriavotsis

Spoiler

Edited by nyrose, May 8, 2012 @ 10:55 PM.

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#9000

nicodelaney

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Posted May 14, 2012 @ 5:48 AM

I assume everyone here has seen these, but just in case . . .

USA has two galleries of photos (WC is included in both) for their shows:

http://www.usanetwor...er/gallery.html

This article contains a potential major spoiler:

http://insidetv.ew.c...-williams-cast/
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