1640 replies to this topic

[OddReigh]

There didn't appear to be a thread for this, and I know I can't be the only one trying to stay one step ahead of the game, so let's all do our best to give Walter a run for his money.

I've had a theory for some time now, and though I was hesitant about posting it because I thought it might be too crackpot-y even for this show, but after going back to the first pages of the character thread and seeing it bandied about there, I'm going to go for it:

Peter is Walter's clone.

I'm not entirely sure why I first started thinking this, but something clicked a few episodes after I started watching (which wasn't until November or so) and I can't get the possibility out of my head.

Anyone else wearing the latest in tinfoil chapeaux?

[Kit Kat]

I've had a theory for some time now, and though I was hesitant about posting it because I thought it might be too crackpot-y even for this show, but after going back to the first pages of the character thread and seeing it bandied about there, I'm going to go for it:

Peter is Walter's clone.

I could see that. For this show, it isn't crackpoty at all. Right now, I like the theory that Peter died when he was a child, and Walter pulled "our" Peter from another universe. Peter seems to not know or get a lot of things confused from his childhood.

Charlie. No theory there yet, but something is going on with that guy. He better not be evil, but he knows more than he lets on.

[sze sze que]

What a clever person you are, Odd Reigh! As we don't know that much about cloning...the cloning of humans is a topic JJA could have free reign in developing a character.

[SillyMamma]

I'd prefer clone but I'm leaning towards genetically altered (cite checking the eyes, blood pressure) or abducted from a mirrorverse (hence the GI Joe comment).

[Packrat87]

As I mentioned in the "Bad Dreams" episode thread, I wonder who Olivia's biological father was/is? I don't really think that the children who were selected for the drug experiments were selected at random. There must have been some type of compatibility/susceptibility testing prior to the experiments with the drug commencing. I'm still wondering whether Nick Lane and she are twin siblings.

From the Bad Dreams Recap

[Walter] and his partner William hypothesized that the drug might enhance certain abilities in pre-disposed children.[...]The ability they were looking for was an ability to perceive reality as subjective and malleable. If you could dream a better world, you could make it happen.

Perhaps, Walter and William Bell were looking for children who were highly submerged in make belief and pretend plays which is said to be linked to high cognitive competences. [Doris Bergen's The Role of Pretend Play in Children's Cognitive Development And yeah, hope Olivia's niece didn't get Cortexiphan in her shot.

[officetemp]

Packrat87, you remind me that I really do need to watch these episodes more than once (and probably closer to a dozen times) to pick up all the info that's packed into each episode. The writing's so multi-layered that I find myself constantly thinking, "Now is that a throwaway line or is it going to be important three episodes down the line?" (Thanks for the link!)

[katwoman007]

I totally buy that Peter is pulled from a parallel universe. In this show and the ZFT manuscript, parallel universes are the new black. It's all the joy of cloning with better sci-fi mind bends.

Supposing that's true, the real question now is: what happened to the Peter from THIS universe?

Would going between universes change your age or not? If yes, I guess he could be his father, or even the bald man who likes hot sauce?

If NOT, though -- if the parallel universe works like I think it does, with people of the same ages and such just encountering slightly different circumstances without the benefit of things like time travel -- it could be something really tragic. Being dead may not be the worst plotline twist here (a simple clone could work with a dead son storywise). This universe's Peter could STILL BE OUT THERE. He could be one of those sad bald naked feral children who were trapped with no food, clothes or company for years on end, who has never been discovered. Or discovered and living in basement of that big tech firm. Or one of the kids that Walter did experiments on who's now gone rogue, and will become the nemesis of the show.

[RainbowMist]

Heh all these theories about (possibly several) alternate Peter(s) remind me of Dinosaurs: "We're gonna need another Billy!"

[jenniferes]

I'm guessing that the cliffhanger of the season, based on the previews, will be the Observer taking Walter with him to a parallel universe. I wonder if season 2 will be full of universe hopping. That might be really cool. Hmmm, now I'm starting to wonder whether universe hopping creates a big hole, such as the one left in the hospital wall when Mr. Jones disappeared...

[sze sze que]

The opening sequence features a list of "fringe" sciences:
Science
Transmogrification
Psychokinesis
Artificial intelligence
God
Teleportation
Precognition
Dark Matter
Reanimation
Nanotechnology
Genetic Engineering
Cybernetics
Suspended Animation
Have the various episodes used all the fringes mentioned? Is the next episode the last for this season?

[jenniferes]

There are two more episodes this season: 1x19 The Road Not Taken and 1x20 There's More Than One of Everything (both sound very parallel universe-y).

[ronathan]

I have a sneaky suspicion that Gene is going to become much more important than simply being a provider of milk. Could Gene be secretly plotting to take over the world? Possibly, given his shifty eyes!

That's right, he's Gene, the Shifty-Eyed Cow!!

Maybe he'll team up with Lost's Vincent the Shifty-Eyed Dog and become the Legion of Shifty-Eyed Animals!

[AimingforYoko]

I know we're dealing with Fringe, so anything's possible, but cows are female.

[the fresh maker]

I'm guessing that the cliffhanger of the season, based on the previews, will be the Observer taking Walter with him to a parallel universe.

This was my first thought, too. Based upon the Canadian previews, it also looks like Olivia will be fully "awakened" next episode or during the season finale. I wouldn't be surprised if she began some kind of training which would enable her to "universe-hop" and get Walter back.

I think Bell has been preparing the world for the upcoming war on two fronts. ZFT, while showing off to other scientists what is possible, does show those scientists that what was once thought of as impossible could in fact be reality. In a way, it's a "for those who have ears to hear" message. So once the war starts, scientists can begin to find ways to battle enemies from the multiverse, or even control the entrances and exits to these portals. No doubt, it is an extreme demonstration that has killed many, but it could also serve as a warning that these types of incidents will happen on a much larger scale once the enemy uses them against an unsuspecting populace.

And then there's Massive Dynamic. The show hasn't examined deeply the range of products that MD offers the general public, but MD ads suggest that MD is also making the impossible possible for the everyday consumer. Is Bell using Massive Dynamic to arm/prepare "normal" people in the coming war? They're not like the soldiers Walter and Bell were creating, but it would be like equipping people for a disaster (making sure you have lots of clean drinking water, flashlights, short-wave radios, etc.). Except in this case, the apocalypse survival kit is a bit more high tech. In the preview Nina Sharp is defending Bell, so I'm sure we're going to hear that he's a misunderstood mad genius who means well.

[Fabrisse]

Based on the Olive/Olivia naming issues, I think Olivia may have come from another dimension, possibly switched out with her doppelganger Olive.

Peter could also be from another dimension, he could be a Walter clone, but I think he may be a Peter clone. The original Peter was very sick at some point. Walter's other Fringe attempts failed so he genetically modified a clone so that it wouldn't get sick -- hence needing to check vitals etc. when they're first reunited.

There may also be some forced growth or brain exchange stuff done to Peter too. We know Walter experimented on him, especially with electricity.

[sze sze que]

I feel the interest in this show is the possibility of Walter's Fringe experiments being performed and controlled by his "inner child" intellect. He gets permission for activities and does worry about his relationship with Peter. Have the Bishops ever mentioned other dimensions? The quotes and music, poetry and mathematical references with Greek references seem to lead to a wish for
understanding of the ancients.

Gene is of this culture and she must understand Sponge Bob....I sure don't!

[VanillaThrilla]

I realize it's early to start speculating on Bell, as we have seen him for only two minutes. But there was something about the way he introduced himself to Olivia that reminded me of the way Walter speaks. I am certain there is more of a connection between the two mad scientists than we have been told so far. Maybe our alternate universe counterparts are not always mirror images, and Bell is actually Bishop's alternate self?

Or am I just reading too much into their identical "WB" monograms? (From a writer's perspective, I think it's more likely to be a clue than a coincidence. Then again, it's just as likely to be a red herring.)

I'll probably be proven wrong in ep 2-1, but "Stranger Things Have Happened"

[Teitr Styrr]

Ooo, which would make our Peter, Peter Bell.

[officetemp]

Which universe does The Observer come from, if any? Or is he from a different plane of existence? And who makes the rules by which he operates? He says that he's "not allowed" to do certain things or interfere with how things happen. To which authority does he answer? (Could it be similar to the temporal authorities--can't remember what they were called--who oversaw the timeline in Enterprise?)

[jenniferes]

If the Observers are meant to observe people and things that go between universes (as part of their observations, maybe), then perhaps that strange big bullet thing we saw in the first episode that really showed us the Observer crosses into parallel/alternative universes somehow? Just a thought (trying to tie things together somehow).

[growltiger]

Over in the "A New Day In The Old Town" thread I found myself speculating on the idea that this episode may be hinting that there are n-ary universes. So let me try to spell it out here for future discussion.

Last year's finale episode, "There's More Than One of Everything," had Olivia meet with William Bell in one of the WTC towers. On the way to the meeting with Nina Sharp at that Mutsumi Hotel in lower Manhattan (N.B., there is a Mutsumi chain, but the Mutsumi Hotel chain does not appear to have a Manhattan property) Olivia narrowly avoided a collision. I am sure I was not alone in believing that this was more than it seemed at the time. Anyway, Nina was a no show and when Olivia calls Sharp's office she is told she is out of the country. If memory serves that was an excuse given for the absence of William Bell in Olivia's universe.

Olivia left the restaurant and in the hotel lift a transition occurs that took her from wherever she was to the world that William Bell inhabits. Olivia moved not only across dimensions or timelines but also in space because there is no WTC in her world. (The establishing shot of her driving into Manhattan would confirm this fact.)

The second season premier has Olivia re-enter her home world flying through the windscreen of her SUV. Really? At the time I thought the near-miss was significant but not the trigger event. I thought the the scene in the lift was what brought her to Bell, what with the shimmering, the lights, and folks appearing and disappearing. How Olivia got from Bell world back to her home world I will leave as an open question. What intrigues me are the degrees of difficulty that making the transition from Olivia's world to Bell's world suggests.

I think that the scene in the Mutsumi Hotel was a transition world and there are n-ary possible worlds. The move to that world occurs somehow, someway with what we thought was the near miss on the way to the appointment. Because it was not a near miss. There was a collision and Olivia was MIA from the accident scene until her dramatic re-entry in the second season premier. Time passes between the time of the accident and Olivia's return which may be accounted for her time spent in the restaurant and then meeting with Bell. Fair enough and well done.

Still the events in the lift suggest a world changing event. Though perhaps world changing only for Olivia. It was there that Olivia traveled from the hotel to the WTC. Yet now we know she never made it to the hotel in her home world. So the accident site was a point of transfer. And then there is that clue in the hotel that Nina Sharp was out of the country. Out of the country? She was probably out of that world.

Last year Fringe made it clear that there was more than one of everything. I think with "A New Day in The Old Town" we have a hint that there may not be just two of everything. And that steps up the game. William Bell was not kidding when he told Olivia how complicated it would be to explain their location.

So what does this mean? For one, characters may have more than one doppelgänger. Now it appears that with every possible world certain dramatis personae may not exist (e.g., Nina Sharp and William Bell). But there were at one time at least two of Peter Bishop and Charlie Fisher until misfortune befell them. Maybe there are still more versions lurking out there. Maybe each world is only allowed one version of an entity. If there are limits, are they limited to living things? If my MacBook Pro encounters its doppelgänger from another dimension will that rip apart the space-time continuum and cause an enormous kraken to drop down upon Manhattan? Maybe the ZFT are really on to something. I am one curious cat.

[MFD]

I think "The Arrival" was a ship that Observer children use to travel through universes as children.

That would make "The Arrival" the wild child from later in the season.

[Rickster]

There is one point that bothers me that might indicate a paradox in the doppleganger concept. Walter said last night that there are almost identical versions of ourselves in parallel universes. "Almost identical" because slight differences in experiences will impact one version but not the other, ie Charlie's scar. But don't these slight differences, carried across generations have sort of a butterfly effect? Like in the movie Sliding Doors, where missing a train can put you on a completely different life path. Or stepping in the street at the wrong time and getting hit by a car. Or is the implication that the bigger pattern is preordained, and only the small unimportant stuff can vary?

Edited by Rickster, Sep 25, 2009 @ 1:03 PM.

[Fabrisse]

I think that's why it's important that our universe's Peter died. The big things can change.

[Miss Caffeine]

There is one point that bothers me that might indicate a paradox in the doppleganger concept. Walter said last night that there are almost identical versions of ourselves in parallel universes. "Almost identical" because slight differences in experiences will impact one version but not the other, ie Charlie's scar. But don't these slight differences, carried across generations have sort of a butterfly effect? Like in the movie Sliding Doors, where missing a train can put you on a completely different life path. Or stepping in the street at the wrong time and getting hit by a car. Or is the implication that the bigger pattern is preordained, and only the small unimportant stuff can vary?

I think so, though I don't think the pattern is necessarily pre-ordained. I think the universe evolve in real time, so every time someone makes a choice, even a small and insignificant one, the universe takes that direction.

Another possibility is that there are universes that account for every possible choice made by every possible human being, so that no matter what, there are other versions of you out there who has made all the choices you didn't.

Maybe the two possibilities are mentioned above aren't mutually exclusive...either way, Walter did mention that there is an infinite number of universes, which I feel supports the idea that every choice is significant, as it creates another version of a universe.

[dealan]

I was rewatching Ep 14, Ability and this quote struck me:

"The way to travel between (worlds) has already been discovered by beings much like us but whose history is slightly ahead of our own. The negative aspects of such visitations will be irreversible both to our world and to theirs. It will begin with a series of unnatural occurrences, difficult to notice at first but growing not unlike a cancer until a simple fact becomes undeniable. Only one world will survive.

Do we know when the "unnatural occurrences" started? Because if you look at the language, it says things will happen, indicating that at the time that it was being written, it hadn't happened yet. What if Walter triggered all these things when he stole alt!Peter when his Peter died?

Let's assume the "beings with histories slightly ahead of our own" are the Observer's race. But just because they knew how to doesn't necessarily mean that they *used* that knowledge. In fact, it seems that they only seem to act in order to prevent new holes from being made (see: Jones), and even then they use others to perform the action.

So, it could be that Walter, in all of his experiments, was getting close to finding out how to harness the ability, and the Observer stepped in and told Bell about the dangers as a warning/deterrent to stop Walter from developing the technology. This scares the crap out of Bell, so he writes the manifesto and diverts Walter's attention away from traveling between worlds. He focuses it on exploring human ability instead. In doing so, he avoids the inter-world travel and begins to look into ways to prepare for the war, "nurture the children" and equip them so "they will protect us." He comes up with Cortexifan (1981) and administers it to kids (1983). But what he doesn't count on is Peter dying in 1985, leading Walter to go back to his work and come up with the tech on his own and then using it.

I dunno but it could actually work.

Also I'm trying really hard to overlook the chess metaphors here, but a lot of things stand out here. First, with the alt!world, we know that there are at least 2 of each person (black vs white pieces). We have 2 Bishops. The person with the most agency (ability to travel between worlds, super hearing, the lights thing) is a woman (the queen). The person who sets most of the plot in motion rarely sees any actual play and in fact spends most of his time being protected by other players (the king). We have a lot of pawns on both sides who can be converted to having powers on the level as the queen (shapeshifters/Cortexifan subjects). And of course, the fact that chess in and of itself is a game of war. Just something to point out.

[Crim]

I really like your chess metaphors. Just one question: Would you say that the show has lost its gray camp (MD) to show there are just two clear cut camps? Yes, it's become obvious that MD are allies (though I could have lived without the Nina/Broyles kiss), but I'd have a bit of a hard time seeing them as pieces in a game where Olivia is their queen. For one thing, in the bigger picture Olivia is too ignorant as to what's going on (as opposed to, say, Nina and even Walter), the major stuff happens to her, her actions when she exercises her agency are minor in the 'Grand War'.

[AimingforYoko]

From the latest ep thread:

But why are AlternaFringe Peeps so hellbent on crossing over and wrecking havoc? Do we know?

What if the shapeshifters were built by the AlternaWalter who's been carrying a lot of hate for us since his son got snatched?

[StarBrand]

Interesting theory there. I like that...

[Rickster]

What if the shapeshifters were built by the AlternaWalter who's been carrying a lot of hate for us since his son got snatched?

This wouldn't surprise me. But, does this imply that the invasion is sort of a rogue operation run by one, or a couple of people, or is it a huge coordinated operation run by a government on the other side?