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Jack and Liz: Well why the hell not?


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#1

scubalemon

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 10:03 AM

Two consecutive episodes, 3.16 ("Apollo, Apollo") and 3.17 ("Cutbacks"), have (re-)sparked a lively debate on whether the Jack/Liz (relation)ship is happening/going to happen or not. The ship issue has started to take over the Cutbacks thread so I thought of creating a dedicated thread so we can keep discussing this, as I'm sure the debate will rage on well past last week's episode.

Here's some really good shipper material, provided by chunkymonkey81 and adverlingus:
http://savingpeople....com/187431.html
http://community.liv...sto/207579.html

While I do not entirely ship Jack and Liz, I do see/feel the underlying tension and actually enjoy watching how it plays out. It's nice to be teased with the idea once in a while. I think making the ship sail off too fast would be a mistake, as is the case with any TV couple. I love how Jack and Liz's relationship has developed over the past three seasons, and wouldn't mind seeing them ultimately get together. For the time being (say, for the next couple of seasons), I think I'd rather they stay BFFs, occasional frenemies, and platonic friends.

What do you think? Whether you are a "shipper" or "hater" in the world of 30 Rock fandom, post your thoughts on what TV Guide calls "The Best TV Couple of 2008."

:)

Edited by scubalemon, Apr 13, 2009 @ 8:48 PM.


#2

ikar

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:02 AM

"Why the hell not?"

Because this show is not fanfiction.

#3

Chris29

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:30 AM

"Why the hell not?"

Love this.

#4

lz1982

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 12:01 PM

I was thinking of creating this thread myself. I say yes, at the end of the series. I love reading fanfic where they're a couple but I wouldn't want that to take over the show.

#5

Inquisitionist

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 12:25 PM

I don't care what Tina and Alec say in interviews, I'm not seeing any sexual tension between Jack and Liz on-screen, and I don't want to. They have a unique (for TV) mento-manatee relationship. Anything else would squick me out.

#6

Madeline Foster

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 12:37 PM

I am not a Jack/Liz 'shipper. At all. I don't even want them together at the end of the series. But I do see the sexual tension between them. It's become very apparent in the last couple of episodes and was extremely apparent in the first episode of this season when Kathy Geiss wanted them to kiss.

#7

chunkeymonkey81

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 5:51 PM

Whether you see chemistry/sexual tension is purely subjective, however what the show TELLS us is different. Many of these points are in the wonderful essay that is linked in the first post. So check it out, it states all of them clearly and much better than I can.

But I fully believe Jack and Liz are endgame. The show, besides being a show about a late night comedy show, is really about Liz and her single girl life in the city. Wanting to *have it all*, get married, have a baby and have a career. To a somewhat lesser extent(not by much) it is also a show about Jack who wants to have it all as well--the big GE job--and find someone to love. These points have been consistently clear from the beginning, even if Jack is just now starting to come around to where he wants to find lasting love again. This is not just wishful shipper stuff, these have been ongoing plot points throughout the 3 seasons.

So they both go after those things. Liz works on her career, Jack never gives up on the job he wants. Liz wants a baby, Jack says he will help her. And they both go out with a parade of different men and woman trying to find love. All who are *stand ins* as that essay will point out much more than I can explain here. They serve to highlight what Jack/Liz want and don't want in a relationship. And also in ways subtly show how right Jack and Liz are for each other.

Liz has dated Gavin Volure--show's she is not opposed to dating older men.
Liz has dated Floyd--who Jack has said in an episode that Floyd is like him 20 years ago.
Jack is dating Elisa--the spanish equivalent of Liz.
Jack has dated CC, who is a "bleeding heart liberal" and has many similar qualities to Liz.

These are just some basic examples.

But I digress, the show has had both of them from the beginning on this path to have it all. It's a main theme in the series. The career, the love. In the end I believe they will achieve what they want. I believe in the end they will realize what the want has been in front of them the whole time. And that ending will be ultimately more satisfying. YMMV.

#8

muic

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 6:53 PM

Everything chunkeymonkey81 said. Also, I think the show has gone to great lengths to show us how happy they make each other, more than others can ever do, so yeah, why the hell not?

Romance would complicate the relationship but I honestly believe that 30 Rock is probably the only show that can pull it off without jumping the shark. Plus, it promises a huge area of unexplored laughs, especially the reactions of the rest of the characters.

It may be my attachment to these two characters but I don't want to watch them fail at relationships and be sad for 5 seasons. They are good people!

Edited by muic, Apr 13, 2009 @ 6:57 PM.


#9

ams87

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 7:15 PM

Why the hell not indeed!

I'm a huge Jack/Liz shipper but that's not to say I want them to just jump each others bones, because I actually don't. Not yet. I do think they'd make such a damn cute couple but I very, very much doubt anything will be happening (romantic wise) with them this season or next. The chase is always the best part is it not? If something was to happen with them, I trust the 30R writers to do it well, because c'mon, is there anything those guy can't do well?! I'd trust them not to jump ze shark with Jack/Liz if they were in a relationship before the show ended.

Oh forget that. Who am I kidding, I'd love them to get together now.

The majority of non-shippers I've spoke to aren't opposed to them getting together in the end. I'm new here so I don't know if that's the general feeling from non-shippers or not?

Edited by ams87, Apr 13, 2009 @ 7:16 PM.


#10

arc

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 7:39 PM

They have a unique (for TV) mento-manatee relationship. Anything else would squick me out.

Yeah. I kinda miss the slightly more antagonistic vibe of the earlier episodes. It wasn't because he disliked her, but his mentoring style back at that time was sort of like how his dad taught him to swim...

#11

lz1982

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 8:27 PM

He does still insult her though ("worst quadrant," telling her she should go to Puerto Rico because they revere elderly women). I like that their dynamic has changed since Season 1. It feels more true-to-life to me.

#12

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 8:46 PM

The majority of non-shippers I've spoke to aren't opposed to them getting together in the end.

I would hate it.

And also in ways subtly show how right Jack and Liz are for each other.

As colleagues and friends, not as lovers, IMO.

#13

Bachmann

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 9:04 PM

I dunno.

Could Jack live with Liz's world of microwaved donuts, Trix, and Sabor de Soledad? Could Liz stand the high-falutin' crowd that Jack hangs with?

Do you think that Jack could settle for a "lower-station" person like Liz? How long do you think Jack's romantic intentions towards Elisa would have lasted if she hadn't broken away? Even with CC, he said he'd only hang around until the "sex went bad".

I think that if Jack and Liz weren't tied to each other through their work, they'd have nothing in common.

OTOH, if Liz turns 40 with no likely prospects, maybe anything is possible.

#14

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 10:35 PM

He does still insult her though ("worst quadrant," telling her she should go to Puerto Rico because they revere elderly women). I like that their dynamic has changed since Season 1. It feels more true-to-life to me.


Plus in the last episode he told the HR guy that Liz's behavior was caused by menopause. She's like 10 years away from that!

Bachmann, all really valid points. As of Reunion, Liz was 38 and she hasn't had a birthday since right? So that just gives her two years. Hmmm.

Edited by scubalemon, Apr 13, 2009 @ 10:37 PM.


#15

JessicaLovejoy

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Posted Apr 13, 2009 @ 11:29 PM

I was thinking of creating this thread myself.


Me too. But I didn't, because the only thread name I could think of was "A Lack of Jiz." ("Lack" and "Jiz" being the unfortunate mashings of their names, a la Brangelina.)

I adore these two, but I could only see them together if something happened to each of their sex drives. Maybe Jack's doctor tells him his heart is only strong enough for bi-monthly sex sessions, and all the built up testosterone from the Sabor de Soledad ups Liz's sex drive a wee bit?

But I also won't complain if they never hook up. I really, really don't think it will happen. But I still find it fun to imagine "what if."

Edited by JessicaLovejoy, Apr 14, 2009 @ 12:25 AM.


#16

ikar

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 12:04 AM

I know I already posted a very negative reaction to this. I can understand that you can point to things and say "There! See!" and show that something exists. I won't deny they might throw out these things to hook you.

But I also feel compelled to say to the "shippers" - this show is completely absurd! Why are you trying to shape this show into a Mulder/Scully or Jim/Pam convention? Seinfeld can buy NBC for $4 million? NBC is a division of Sheinhardt Wig? The head of NBC programming also runs the microwave division? Tracy Jordan wears gold shoes? And owns Lehman Brothers?

Okay, I'm with ya! If this show moves Liz and Jack into this relation"ship" then I hope they treat it with the irreverence that they show for everything else in their same universe. Hopefully they blow us all away with a hilarious take on this TV convention.

And btw, "A Lack of Jiz" would have been a great thread title as well. Kudos to JessicaLovejoy on a great throw-in.

#17

muic

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 1:05 AM

I could think of was "A Lack of Jiz."


Boy that made me LOL and I am getting death stares from people who are actually studying in the library. Oops.

By the nature of this show, I think the shippers are very different from Jam-shippers; nobody wants to throw Salma Hayek under a bus, i.e we are not that extreme.

I think most of us just appreciate how similar they actually are underneath the supposed 'class'/political differences between them. It also explains why they talk about so much non-work related stuff. Looking at how Jack fell for McFlurries, I think he would enjoy what Liz enjoys (who can resist microwaved donuts?). And I do think Liz wants to be less socially awkward and have money that grows into more money and Jack is willing to show her how.

Anyway, Liz's little look after Jack mouthed 'no' really made the episode for me last week.

#18

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 1:55 AM

I don't consider myself a "shipper". I don't live in a world of fan fiction or anything. But the reason I looked for and am commenting on this post is that I really think the show is setting it up for Jack and Liz to get together. I mean there is huge over arching theme that Jack and Liz are both unlucky in love and really strive to be happy. It's the one non-absurdist thing about the show. It's what makes it relatable. All of Jack and Liz's signifigant others are always kind of cartoons, except for C.C. who was more of a real person. Jack and Liz kind of just seem like naturally they will come together. I also think Alec just has great chemistry with Tina, even in interviews, so maybe the show didn't start out that way but their sizzle together made the sexual chemistry.

#19

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 3:27 AM

All of Jack and Liz's signifigant others are always kind of cartoons, except for C.C. who was more of a real person.

Everyone is a cartoon on this show, including Jack and Liz. Jack studied flash cards of the TGS employees (and others). He has shaken hands with every global malefactor you can think of and has the photos to prove it. He had a secret life collecting cookie jars. He (sorta) became friends with Batman.

And as for Liz, she bought a $4K wedding dress without even a boyfriend, she ate an entire sandwich in about 20 seconds, she tried to make her staff watch a moment from "Designing Women" to get them to understand how put-upon she felt, ...

#20

euripidean

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 5:51 AM

I like the dynamic between Jack and Liz, but I don't especially want a relationship to happen in the show - I find the romantic failings of each character far too amusing. That said, I enjoy the frissons of apparent (as it appears to me, at any rate) attraction and the way they interact with each other when they are both either working as a well-oiled machine or banging *heads* with each other to achieve different goals.

I can't help but think that some shows are so brilliant as to be beyond ship for me, and I'd like to think 30 Rock is one of them.

#21

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 6:13 AM

Does anyone else read Alan Sepinwall's weekly reviews? (Disclaimer: I do but only agree with him about half the time). Anyway his constant criticism of 30 Rock is that it likes to try to turn convention on its head, but that its attempts often fall flat. I don't necessarily agree.

Getting a show's male and female leads together is pretty conventional (even cliche, to be blunt), but can be great in the hands of brilliant writers and actors. I think most of us can agree that 30 Rock has TV's brightest scribes and thesps. So if anyone can turn the sexual tension cliche on its head, it's Fey & Co. I'm mostly confident they can pull it off if they want to but it'll obviously be a huge risk.

Edited by scubalemon, Apr 14, 2009 @ 6:14 AM.


#22

ams87

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 7:35 AM

So if anyone can turn the sexual tension cliche on its head, it's Fey & Co. I'm mostly confident they can pull it off if they want to but it'll obviously be a huge risk.


Exactly. I honestly don't think they'll get them together before the show ends, it's just too big a risk. And plus, we don't have *that* many viewers anyway, so why would they risk something that some people may not like and risk losing precious viewers?

But yeah, if they did, I'd trust them to make it hilarious and for it to not overtake the show like some other programmes have *cough* CSI *cough*. I'd trust them not to jump the shark.

I find the show a lot stronger and more enjoyable when there's more Jack/Liz scenes, not just because I ship them, it's because of the way they interact. It's just fun to watch. They obviously make each other happy and I think it'd translate into a romantic relationship quite nicely, when and if it's ever done.

As for Elisa...well, Elisa = Elizabeth in Spanish, that's all I gotta say about that one! (Cuz c'mon, that's pretty huge, if subtle, hint, right?)

#23

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 9:20 AM

Everyone is a cartoon on this show, including Jack and Liz.


Jack and Liz are exaggerated and cartoonish at times, but their relationship (using that term broadly) isn't. It feels very real to me.

I think the show *could* have them get together without screwing things up, but then again, I thought that about Jim and Pam. I do enjoy Jack and Liz's romantic misadventures, without which there'd be fewer plotlines to tackle, so I'd rather have a series-ending hookup.

Edited by lz1982, Apr 14, 2009 @ 9:21 AM.


#24

Chris29

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 10:39 AM

Could Jack live with Liz's world of microwaved donuts, Trix, and Sabor de Soledad? Could Liz stand the high-falutin' crowd that Jack hangs with?


They already do. And that's why so many people think they should be together. They're both insane people married to their jobs, capable of pretty much anything to get what they want, and very determined to 'have it all'. They already deal with each other flaws and accept them and still care about each other.

So if anyone can turn the sexual tension cliche on its head, it's Fey & Co. I'm mostly confident they can pull it off if they want to but it'll obviously be a huge risk.


Agreed.

#25

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 11:05 AM

As for Elisa...well, Elisa = Elizabeth in Spanish, that's all I gotta say about that one! (Cuz c'mon, that's pretty huge, if subtle, hint, right?)


Yeah that one really has me wondering if it's subtext or just sheer coincidence, though I'm leaning towards the former. I mean, out of the hundreds of possible names, why pick that one?

So if anyone can turn the sexual tension cliche on its head, it's Fey & Co.


Afterthought: maybe what we're witnessing already is them turning said cliche on its head...

Edited by scubalemon, Apr 14, 2009 @ 11:15 AM.


#26

ams87

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 3:13 PM

Yeah that one really has me wondering if it's subtext or just sheer coincidence, though I'm leaning towards the former. I mean, out of the hundreds of possible names, why pick that one?

Right! I try not to read too much into it but I really can't help it. I mean, maybe they thought nobody would notice?! But meh, wasn't exactly hard to notice was it? A tad confusing as to what they were aiming to do with that.

"The Ones" should be verrrrry interesting if the promo pictures are anything to go by...

Edited by ams87, Apr 14, 2009 @ 3:13 PM.


#27

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Posted Apr 14, 2009 @ 4:19 PM

Elisa = Elizabeth in Spanish

I was taught that Isabel is the Spanish equivalent of Elizabeth. Elizabeth II of England is known as Isabel II in Spanish. But apparently Elisabet or Elisabeta is becoming more common in Spanish.

#28

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Posted Apr 15, 2009 @ 11:55 AM

"The Ones" should be verrrrry interesting if the promo pictures are anything to go by...


Thanks for the heads up! Looked for them and found them :)

I was taught that Isabel is the Spanish equivalent of Elizabeth. Elizabeth II of England is known as Isabel II in Spanish. But apparently Elisabet or Elisabeta is becoming more common in Spanish.


Didn't know that 'til now, so thanks for the info. I've always found it funny how the Spanish equivalent of "James" isn't "Jaime" as you would expect, rather it's "Santiago." Go figure. Anyways I wonder if anyone would've picked up on it if they had named Salma's character Isabel? If Jack gets any future love interests by that name (Isabella Rosselini does not count!), you just know this forum will go nuts then ;)

#29

Frey

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Posted Apr 15, 2009 @ 1:02 PM

I've always found it funny how the Spanish equivalent of "James" isn't "Jaime" as you would expect, rather it's "Santiago."


Well, the English "James" comes from the (late) Latin "Jacomus," which comes from the Greek "Jacobus" and the Hebrew "Yaakov" -- which becomes "Iago" in Spanish -- so "Santiago" means "Saint James"! :P

Edited by Frey, Apr 15, 2009 @ 4:04 PM.


#30

ams87

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Posted Apr 15, 2009 @ 2:56 PM

Thanks for the heads up! Looked for them and found them :)


They are perhaps the most glorious promo pictures I've ever seen! Meep! Cannot wait for that episode.

Wow, all this name translation is causing my brain so swosh, confusing.