Jump to content

Lost Theorists Unite!


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

135 replies to this topic

#31

kieran555

kieran555

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Male

Posted May 2, 2009 @ 5:05 PM

My memory is not very good. Which nightmares does Widmore have and from which episode?

It was ep 409, 'The Shape of Things to Come' (incidentally, he also claims that Ben was responsible for Alex's death and not him at the same time - showing that even if the Island has not let him return he has a good sense of what its take on the matter turned out to be). We don't know what his nightmares are about though.

I want the Island to judge itself. Why did it have to kill Nadine, Shannon, Eko etc. And of all the things Ben has done, his worst crime was doing nothing to prevent Alex's death?! It was Keamy not Ben who killed Alex. He would have prevented it but that is not the same as him actually doing the crime. But this is what the Island chose as his worst crime which means it agreed with everything else he did. The Island has to be evil.

I imagine if the Island is sentient it regards itself as more important than the mundane creatures that serve it. It confronts people with events which they could choose to dispute its interpretation of events and if they do choose to do so they are killed. I don't think it has ever been about morality, simply who is useful and can be trusted to still carry out its will (by being penitent at the right time). The Others insistence on being the 'good guys' probably means if the Island is sentient it follows the same philosophy, that any action is justified in its service as it will lead to the 'proper' future. If it isn't exactly evil then I think it must be at least amoral as regards such things.

#32

MissPutter

MissPutter

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 2, 2009 @ 9:09 PM

I understand your point, Scrunt, but to not even try to rectify it seems strange. Unless we find out she did try with worse consequences, as you say. She knew by reliving this loop that Daniel had to die, which is why she could tell Desmond that red shoes would always die no matter what you do to try to stop it. Maybe Daniel dies even worse deaths (geez, what could be worse than being shot by your own mother?), but I guess I'm goint go to have to take her word for it.

I like the island is evil theory too. I forget who first speculated that - it may have been BeenHere on this or another thread. The episode where Locke is part of the farm that is growing marijuana and the undercover cop targets him because he is easily manipulated made me think think that they may be right - the island may just be evil, choosing leaders who are easily manipulated, like Locke, who has been manipulated all of his life!

#33

FaithW

FaithW

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 9:56 AM

IA MissPutter, about the idea that not trying to rectify the past seems strange, but we don't know all the pieces to her story. I know that if someone I loved died, and time travel was involved, even if someone told me that whatever happened, happened, I would KEEP trying, and keep trying, I wouldn't stop. ... What makes someone stop?

What's the Island to Eloise? What's bigger than killing your own son? What purpose is that? My theory is that there HAS to be something bigger than all of this, it can't just be swept under the rug that because she did it, she can't change it. Lost isn't about Widmore/Ben's little fight over ownership, or Eloise's son... even if Daniel did GREAT, WONDERFUL things in Ann Arbor... there is a bigger, higher purpose. What is this hold that the Island has on them all? Is it that "God help us all", "God save us all" kinda stuff? Is the whole WORLD really in danger? Eloise/Ben/Widmore really seem like unlikely heroes if this is the case... hmm..

#34

Roll the dice

Roll the dice

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 11:19 AM

What's the Island to Eloise? What's bigger than killing your own son? What purpose is that? My theory is that there HAS to be something bigger than all of this, it can't just be swept under the rug that because she did it, she can't change it. Lost isn't about Widmore/Ben's little fight over ownership, or Eloise's son... even if Daniel did GREAT, WONDERFUL things in Ann Arbor... there is a bigger, higher purpose. What is this hold that the Island has on them all? Is it that "God help us all", "God save us all" kinda stuff? Is the whole WORLD really in danger? Eloise/Ben/Widmore really seem like unlikely heroes if this is the case... hmm..


I have to imagine that Eloise knows how matter how much it hurts that she has to kill her son because it is something bigger than that. I think that we will really start to see how much this Island has the ability to not only affect the Losties and all the people that come to the Island but even people who never know about its existence. The final season, I can imagine will show how the Island has an affect on the WORLD. Perhaps, in this way Daniel is kind of like a Jesus figure. He was afterall sacrificed by a parent for some cause that is greater by him being dead then being alive. I can see her willing to sacrifice her son if it saves the world, right?

ETA: The only thing that I thought was weird was that when Eloise said that she no longer knew what was going to happen. If she killed her son in order to avoid some horrible worldwide event, how would she know about it if it was in the future. I think that we will actually find out that this war that Charles says is coming is actually in the past.

Edited by Roll the dice, May 4, 2009 @ 1:16 PM.


#35

Uncle Benzene

Uncle Benzene

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 1:16 PM

Roll the dice: I can see her willing to sacrifice her son if it saves the world, right?


I think that's the heart of the issue re: Eloise's morality.

I don't want to skate (heh) too close to the Boards on Boards line here (and BoB is not my intent here, for the record) but I have to say I was shocked at the overwhelming "Eloise is EEEEVIL" reaction to the events of last week.

Short term, she shot a stranger who had barged into her people's camp, had discharged his weapon several times, and was counting down from three with his weapon pointed at Richard's face. Frankly, I was shocked at Richard's own bemused reaction to Ellie's having fired. To me, shooting was the only reasonable thing for her to have done.

But long term, as far as her apparent willingness to sacrifice Dan to death by her own hand... well, it seems pretty obvious that she thinks ("knows") that it's her son's life vs. the very fate of all mankind. God help us all and such.

Even if you disregard her apparent opinion/knowledge that it couldn't be changed anyway, doesn't the question then become "How many other human lives is your own child's life worth?" Frankly, I'm surprised that the preponderance of the reaction seemed to have been "As many as it takes."

Now, full disclosure: I'm not a parent, and I don't presume to have a parent's perspective on the issue. Clearly it must be, for a parent, about as difficult a choice as there could possibly be. And surely, viscerally, the gut would scream exactly that... "As many as it takes." But isn't overcoming the visceral a human virtue? Isn't choosing the wellbeing of all mankind the moral thing to do?

And where is the tipping point? How many (innocent) people does it have to be? The whole of the world's population? Two? (Two being greater than one, regardless of your relation to the one.) Somewhere in between? Where does one draw the line?

Edited by Uncle Benzene, May 4, 2009 @ 1:18 PM.


#36

BeenHere

BeenHere

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 2:01 PM

Eloise should have tried to save her son. Who knows what might have happened had she tried to prevent Daniel from going? The reason why many are angry at Eloise is that she did not try. Try and fail but at least try. The other thing is she controlled his life. If she really believed in destiny and that Daniel was destined to die, she should have treated him better. She did not allow him to play the piano. She was rude towards Theresa. Since when did destiny need someone to make sure it happened? She controlled him so much that he named a rat after her. Daniel went to the Island because she told him she would be proud of him. He died knowing that his mother had sent him their to die. She is cold. She should have let him enjoy his life since she knew his fate but she did not do that. She did not even warn before he left.

#37

Uncle Benzene

Uncle Benzene

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 2:38 PM

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the whole "controlling his life" thing. I don't think we've been given nearly enough evidence of that. Parents have to set boundaries, and while playing the piano isn't exactly hanging out at all hours of the night or eating junk food and watching reality tee vee 10 times a day, it certainly isn't (nor should it be) top priority either. I hardly think that denying a child an extracurricular activity, or being slightly rude to a girlfriend on one specific occasion for that matter, is grounds for Mommy Dearest comparisons.

Sure, Dan himself seemed to be a bit peeved at how Eloise "always pushed and pushed." But what overachiever doesn't hold a bit of resentment toward his parent(s) for "pushing?" Hell, what C student doesn't resent his parent(s) for being too demanding? I don't think we can take Dan's view of Eloise's parental merits as The Definitive Truth. Especially when it seems like the evidence is very specific and anecdotal. After all, he seems to enjoy the whole timey-wimey physicist life well enough, despite his own failings re: Theresa, Charlotte, Oxford, etc. and he seems to be well-adjusted enough despite the brainy-wainy issues his own work has brought on himself. Still, has Dan ever shown us any genuine regret?

Naming the rat after her could just as easily be endearing as disdainful. Sure, it was a rat. But Dan seemed to care about her. Could have as easily been some other species of animal companion without the rat stigma. Were it a cuter, more mainstream animal, the implication would be far different. But not everyone shares the same view of the flowchart of animal-to-emotion connection. Had Dan instead chosen the name Theresa, for example, would that imply that Dan loathed her?

Sure, Dan and Eloise had their issues. What son doesn't have issues of some sort with Mom? This just in: Moms can be a pain in the ass. Doesn't mean you don't love 'em, and doesn't mean it's even nearly halfway their fault even if you're really, REALLY pissed off at them. Which isn't to say that bad moms don't exist, because clearly they do. But pushing the son to achieve? Being a little rude to a girlfriend? Nixing a hobby? That's hardly damning evidence.

And if WHH, then the "not trying" to keep him from going to the island doesn't matter.

#38

FaithW

FaithW

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 4:22 PM

ETA: The only thing that I thought was weird was that when Eloise said that she no longer knew what was going to happen. If she killed her son in order to avoid some horrible worldwide event, how would she know about it if it was in the future. I think that we will actually find out that this war that Charles says is coming is actually in the past.


I'm gonna think that the reason Eloise says that, is simply because she gets a hold of Daniel's journal, and thus knows SO much about stuff back in the past, which is the reason why she probably so firmly believes in WH, H. Daniel's journal had all sortsa information in it, the most he ever knew (obviously) at the point of his death, but he knows nothing of the future beyond 2007. So Eloise could say she knew of things to happen, but nothing after Daniel's death.

I don't want to skate (heh) too close to the Boards on Boards line here (and BoB is not my intent here, for the record) but I have to say I was shocked at the overwhelming "Eloise is EEEEVIL" reaction to the events of last week.


I'll have to re-watch the episode, but I remember Eloise looking sad as she closes the musical portion of Daniel's life firmly. To me, she didn't seem cold, and unfeeling, which is what I imagine an evil person would. She clearly dismissed Theresa right away, and yes, she was ready to manipulate Daniel based on his seeking her approval, but it wasn't completely one-sided. I don't believe that it's that simple.

And where is the tipping point? How many (innocent) people does it have to be? The whole of the world's population? Two? (Two being greater than one, regardless of your relation to the one.) Somewhere in between? Where does one draw the line?


If we solve your questions, we solve so much! Exactly what I was asking too! Eloise sacrificed her son, but we don't know for how many. And I am gonna theorize that it is either based on a) how many will be saved in his death or b) stuff Daniel either made (did he have anything to do with the Lamp Post?), or time traveling theories he came up with, something specific that Daniel who is thrust to us as a genius came up with. Is it because of what happened with Daniel that Eloise gets off the Island? I don't believe we've had any confirmation that she's on Island at all post 1977, right?

BeenHere-- I'm confused as you, about Eloise's pushing. We can understand possibly why she pushed Desmond (because he was unique, and might be the REAL variable in things), but why be so seemingly cold to young Daniel, if she truly believes WH,H? Does your mom being a jerk your entire life soften the wound of you dying at her hands later? Maybe it does, maybe he's not that surprised. But why do people have to try so hard if it's DESTINY, and whatever happened, happened?

Even though Daniel's theory, that they are the variables seems like a perfect solution-- I don't think it is the ultimate solution. But we are definitely missing a piece.

Uncle Benzene-- I can see your point of view, and you know what, it should be mentioned that despite the fact that Eloise could win Crappy Mummy if the Year, Daniel still wanted to please her. Stuff can be said by each side, but Daniel does still love her regardless, and yearn for her approval. Some people, in Daniel's position, would have simply walked away, especially after becoming an adult. He could have walked out the door, and never came back. But he didn't, despite how she acted, or because of how she acted-- he sought out her approval. Which to me, is another point for WH, H.

Edited by FaithW, May 4, 2009 @ 4:30 PM.


#39

Leesters

Leesters

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 5:15 PM

Since Eloise has Daniels book 30 years ahead of its time, she is aware of certain things that must come to pass.

Since "god help us all" is in play, it must be save-the-world type of importance, forcing her to make Daniel do what he must do.

In Daniels book, the incident and purge are both discussed, so she would know they would happen.

I believe that Piano-Daniel was directly after the incident. Once Eloise go the phone call verifying that the incident did really occur, then she knew her son's destiny. Everyone tries to stop the Incident, which will probably be the reason it happens.

#40

Roll the dice

Roll the dice

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 6:00 PM

Since Eloise has Daniels book 30 years ahead of its time, she is aware of certain things that must come to pass.


In the preview for this weeks episode, didn't we see Jack with the notebook. Do we have anything to prove that she ends up with the notebook? I figure that at the beginning of this upcoming episode that Jack and Kate would a least go down into the Hostiles camp.

#41

BeenHere

BeenHere

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 6:26 PM

Some people, in Daniel's position, would have simply walked away, especially after becoming an adult. He could have walked out the door, and never came back. But he didn't, despite how she acted, or because of how she acted-- he sought out her approval. Which to me, is another point for WH, H.


I don't think it had anything to do with whatever happened happened. Lots of people in real life try hard to please their parents. On Lost we saw Jack. His father pushed him too much but Jack still tried to make him proud of him. It was after Sawyer told him about his father's last words that Jack finally felt some peace with regards to their relationship. Kate had problems with her mommy but she still needed her acceptance. It is just human nature. I don't find it hard to understand why Daniel would need her approval. I do not think he had a stepfather. Eloise was the only parent he had. She pushed him so much. She made him feel as though he was not good enough. As an adult, he did stay away from her. He worked at Oxford in England while Eloise was in the US. It was after the accident with Theresa that he had to return home. Knowing his destiny, she should have made life easier for him.
The problem with people like Eloise and Widmore is that they act like fanatics in regards to the Island. Everything seems to be either black or white. There are no grey areas. She raised Daniel focused on one thing. This is why it took him so long to think of the variable theory. To them free will doesn't exist. This is where Desmond is different. Desmond would rather try and fail than ot try at all. I would like to think Charles and Eloise at least tried to find a way to stop the incident or prevent Daniel's death.

I figure that at the beginning of this upcoming episode that Jack and Kate would a least go down into the Hostiles camp.

I am not sure she does end up with the book. How did she know when Desmond proposed to Penny or where he bought the ring? Daniel did not know that.

Edited by BeenHere, May 4, 2009 @ 6:27 PM.


#42

FaithW

FaithW

    Couch Potato

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 7:10 PM

Based on Eloise's all-knowing kinda way about her, my theory HAD been that Daniel and her had long talks, except now, Daniel's dead, so I quickly changed that theory to SHE HAS THE BOOK. Which struck me as all kindsa cool because she was the one that gave it to him. She'll open it, see what she apparently will write in it, and later on, seek out that exact journal and purchase it to give to him later in his life. I wanna know how much Eloise knows. Daniel directed Desmond to find his mom, this time he goes to his mother to help him... he's so sure she'll help them. Why would Eloise help, when Pierre didn't believe him? And sure, that might have to do with Miles not co-operating, but if anyone was gonna believe them, you'd think it would have been Pierre anyway...

#43

cyberpumpkin

cyberpumpkin

    Video Archivist

Posted May 4, 2009 @ 10:23 PM

I believe that Piano-Daniel was directly after the incident. Once Eloise go the phone call verifying that the incident did really occur, then she knew her son's destiny. Everyone tries to stop the Incident, which will probably be the reason it happens.


How could that be? The setting where Piano-Daniel was certainly didn't look like it was on the island, which is where Eloise is/was. Just before wandering into the Hostile's camp, and getting shot by Eloise, Daniel said the Incident was a mere 6 hours away. I don't see any way Eloise could have left the island and gotten to where the piano-playing scene happened - in six hours.

#44

bettyfinn

bettyfinn

    Video Archivist

Posted May 5, 2009 @ 9:02 AM

she really believed in destiny and that Daniel was destined to die, she should have treated him better. She did not allow him to play the piano.


I wondered if she thought that by pushing him to be such a genius (to the exclusion of all else) that HE could figure out a way to change the future (or the past, or whatever). Maybe she thought the only person who could save her from shooting him, save him, etc. was Daniel. And he needed to concentrate all of his energies on solving this. He didn't, of course, and so all of her hideous stage mommying was for nought. Too bad.

Re: the journal. I am pretty sure he dropped the bag in the Others' camp. And the very first thing we see on the preview for tomorrow's ep looks like a woman's hands flipping through the journal. She seems to have on blue pants and red top, so it's not Kate, and Ellie was wearing an orange-y shirt we she offed Dan. And since the flipping through the journal clip on the preview is so short, I'm willing to guess it's her.

#45

Leesters

Leesters

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 5, 2009 @ 11:03 AM

Its my theory that Ellie found the journal, figured out the future from it, and realized that bad things were going to happen if they can't stop "the incident".

If the incident happens, then Daniel must go through his time travels to make sure the failsafe key gets turned.

When Ellie came out of the kitchen in tears of shock, I believe she learned that incident indeed happened, as it was supposed to. And now Daniel must get ready for his time travelling destiny, or god help us all.

The theory is about the incident and the failsafe key. The incident is the variable. The failsafe key is the "course correction", or constant. And since both occurances are documented in the journal, those are the things they are trying to manipulate to connect.

I still don't know how she knew the red shoes guy would die in his shower.

And also about Daniel, we're not done with him yet. We will still see him learn how to master time sickness, and figure out how he knew exact details from a time zone he hasn't seen yet. And I'm sure that will fill in a lot of holes in the Widmore puzzle, as well.

Edited by Leesters, May 5, 2009 @ 10:56 AM.


#46

lynxish

lynxish

    Couch Potato

Posted May 5, 2009 @ 12:25 PM

When Ellie came out of the kitchen in tears of shock, I believe she learned that incident indeed happened, as it was supposed to.


I totally agree with the above. I think Ellie had just found out that the Incident had happened, during that scene where she came out of the kitchen in tears, and told Daniel that there was not enough time for distractions like playing the piano. What has been bothering me quite a bit is that it seems like the Incident is going to happen in 1977. Because that does not fit with the approximate timeline we have been given for the Incident previously. The Swan Orientation Film made it clear that the Incident happened after the Swan was finished being built, and after it was first put into operation. In fact, let me just briefly quote from that Orientation Film:

The station 3 was originally constructed as a laboratory, where scientists could work to understand the unique electromagnetic fluctuations emanating from this sector of the island. Not long after the experiments began, however, there was... an 'incident'... and since that time, the following protocol has been observed...


Yet as of 1977, the Swan hasn't even been finished being built, and certainly has not started operations. Also, the Orientation Film was made in 1980, which means that if the Incident had happened in 1977, they'd have been running the Swan and pushing the button for three years without that Orientation Film, presumably. The dates just don't seem to add up.

So here's what I think is going to happen. There is going to be an accident and an incident, each occurring at different times. The accident comes first (and is about to happen now), whereas the Incident will come later. This would explain why Daniel kept calling what was about to happen an "accident" instead of an "incident" (I really noticed that difference in wording, in the last episode). So I think what is happening in 1977 is an accident which the time travelers may actually succeed in mitigating and/or preventing. But that in two or three years, there will be the Incident, similar to what is going on now (but perhaps of a lesser magnitude), which will be what causes the change in the Swan Station's protocol. Thus causing them to push the button, leading to Desmond failing to push the button, and leading to the crash of 816. Eloise will get the call about the Incident having happened, will end up in tears, because that means that she and Daniel failed to change things, and she will conclude that no matter what she does, she will end up killing him in 1977. So she pushes him to focus on nothing but science, and starts to detach herself from him, because otherwise it would be too unbearable for her.

Whether she ends up with the journal as well is a little unclear to me. It would make a great deal of sense, but it also might make things too easy. Another possibility I have considered is that Eloise might have dreams/visions of Jacob, the way Ben does/did. It has always seemed like Jacob may have some kind of foreknowledge of events, which he sometimes passes on to the Others, IMO. So it is not out-of-the-question that Jacob might communicate with Eloise, in some way. After all, she was a kind of leader of the Others too, at one point. But that is just a guess.

#47

Glass Ocean

Glass Ocean

    Fanatic

  • Location:Milky Way

Posted May 6, 2009 @ 1:25 AM

The accident/incident timeline is getting a bit fuzzy for me. 1977Ellie is a teenager who should have a LilDan since Charlotte is already 5 years old or so [unless Dan is now supposed to be so much younger than Red]. LaterEllie is played by a different actress who is defintely older than the teen version, and Dan is about eight years old at the piano. Wait a sec -- are they in the US or in England, because Ellie has a Brit accent while Dan has an American one. So could Dan have been born off-Island? No, because how else would Charles end up being his father?

Maybe we can have LilDan see his mummy shoot that man who came running into camp yelling his head off. That might mess with his psyche.

And right now I don't know if Eloise will ultimately be judged as good or evil. But she sure was one hell of a cold mama.

#48

MissPutter

MissPutter

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 6, 2009 @ 8:10 AM

1977Ellie is so NOT a teenager. She may have been an older teenager in 1954, but she's probably in her late 30's in 1977. And yes, I think we've kind of agreed that Dan should be existing somewhere in 1977. I don't know that I'd put too much thought into accents on this show. There's been much discussion, but the writers have given no indication they are concerned about anyone's accents at this point.

Dan seeing Ellie kill the crazy man that came into camp probably would mess with his psyche, and may be one of the reasons they move off island.

I think one of the rules in the rule book (could this have been the book people see Ellie read?) is either that you cannot kill an other, or you cannot kill a relative (which makes Ben's statement about changing the rules to Charles very interesting - and how can Charles change rules? Aren't they written in the book? Maybe Charles is Jacob...), and that is why she had to leave.

I have a feeling we're going to be seeing a very different version of Ellie soon. They really need to do some convincing to make me change my mind, but I agree what she did was cold. I'm assuming they're going to try to convince us she's not so bad, a good mother, loves her son very much, and did what she had to do to save the world, but it's going to be a very steep uphill battle. Or maybe the island is evil, manipulates people into doing evil things, and she is evil along with it.

One thing I have been wondering about is what our losties' ties are to the island. I think we're going to see that each of these people have a tie to the island other than a random assortment of plane passengers. I could be wrong, but I think it would be kind of cool to see that they are all Black Rock descendents or children of others or Dharma folk or something. I think they're alluding to that with Jack (I'm almost certain either Christian or Ray or both were others); I'm willing to bet they all have ties there.

Edited by MissPutter, May 6, 2009 @ 8:41 AM.


#49

Leesters

Leesters

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 7, 2009 @ 10:54 PM

Okay now!

After tonight's episode, there are lots of theories to discuss indeed!

First of all, the dueling dieties is looking dead on right now. Christian, or as John refers to as "the island", is telling him to kill Jacob? Am I getting that right? He is not making this stuff up on his own, thats for sure. So, Jacob and Christian are using pawns, just like it says on the second post of this thread?

Or maybe John is just pulling Ben's leg. Ha! Yeah right.

Or maybe there really is no Jacob. Maybe Jacob stands for Just Another Concoction Of Bullshit.

And now I know why Miles is here. Hes here to talk to Dan. After that happens, he's got a red shirt on.

And its nice to know Richard Alpert is as much in the dark as the rest of this crazy show. And from last week, I also noticed he fears death. He might not get older, but he is nowhere near immortal.

And really the kicker is this.... its all going to boil down to one question.

What the hell is Smokey? Watching Smokey (as Alex) tell Ben to stop thinking about killing John again, and help him.

Okay. That's gotta be the boss talking, there. Reading minds, projecting dead people, reading dead people, and moving around the jungle in a black column of smoke that sounds like a machine and an alien all at the same time.

We gotta Smoke Monster out! I'm going to assume that Smokey is Christian. Its the same MO every time. Smokey conjures up a dead person who is still themselves, but doing its bidding.

Yemi = corpse disapears on the island = Eko relationship.
Christian = corpse disapears on the island = Jack relationship.
Alex = corpse still on the island = Ben relationship.


And one thing for sure. I do not remember a dead guy named Jacob yet. Is Jacob just a distraction? And Smokey is the TRUE Jacob? I don't see anyone else being the boss. Is Jacob ... lol

Jacob is Richards father. The island speaks to Richard through Jacob. The island speaks to Ben through Alex. The island speaks to our lostaways through Christian. Jacob is just a name for Smokey.

Jacob = corpse on the island = Richards brother/parther/dad..

Ben "We don't even have a name for it"

Uh.. why wouldn't you have a name for that thing? You have to call it SOMETHING. I thought that was an anvil of foreshadowing when he said it, and I still feel it today.

My Adam and Eve theory still has a shot. I just hope I still get to see Egyptians and pirates.

And I really really hope the show makes it out of 1977 alive. If all our guys die here, I'll be bummed.

And what about the happy family? Charles, Eloise and Daniel. I heard someone say there was a belly rubbing scene? Is Eloise pregnant with Daniel in 1977? I think so. So, when the Purge happens, Eloise gets a call while Daniel is counting ticks on a metronome. The Purge happened, so now Daniel must go back. There are no other options to stop the past. Which can't happen. Lots of smart people with the foresight of a futuristic journal and they still end up screwing things up. :P

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And once I got my mind around it...

The incident does not kill the lostaways. It will send them to the future. And the future is going to be alot more fun than Dharma. And its also going to be the exact same time "future Desmond" gets sent to after he turns the failsafe key, and this time, I'm sorry ladies.... He'll have his clothes on.

-Richard will see them be vaporized. But the energy will timewarp them instead. Remember, Richard seems completely clueless about time flashing when he says he saw them die.
-But they didn't do all this for nothing, John says.
-John is going to "kill" the myth of Jacob, and announce Christian.
-Jacob, Christian, Alex, and Smokey are all one in the same. The Island.

And I STILL hope I see Ancient Egyptians and 18th Century Pirates! \:D/

Edited by Leesters, May 7, 2009 @ 10:58 PM.


#50

lynxish

lynxish

    Couch Potato

Posted May 8, 2009 @ 11:16 AM

Richard will see them be vaporized. But the energy will timewarp them instead. Remember, Richard seems completely clueless about time flashing when he says he saw them die.


ICAM. Out of curiosity, if the bomb goes off at the exact same time as the accident occurs, are the two forms of energy supposed to literally negate each other, and/or render each other inert? If that's the case, there might not even be a noticeable fallout. Of course, that would require a perfectly simultaneous explosion in conjunction with the accident, which is unlikely. So some of the energy from the accident could escape just before the bomb detonates, causing a time jump.

I've been thinking more about the "shadow of the statue" people. They obviously know stuff about the Island already, and have an agenda. So I figure they've either got to be Ben's people, or Dharma's/Hanso's/Chang's. Either way, I'm wondering if they're going to do what Locke isn't doing: turning the wheel. I'm not sure why they'd want to move the Island, but it would be ever-so-convenient if they did. It would presumably cause both Locke and Sun to jump through time, perhaps right at the moment Locke finds out who Jacob really is, and tries to kill him (if he can). It would solve everybody's problem, if you think about it (except for Locke's). It would would get Sun one step closer to finding Jin, it might presumably save Jacob, and it would reduce the number of leaders of the Others on the Island in 2007 down to one (assuming Ben stays put). Win-win all around, if you ask me.

Jacob, Christian, Alex, and Smokey are all one in the same. The Island.


I disagree with this. I don't think the Island is sentient in any way, shape, or form. I think that's a fallacy, which Locke in particular has fallen prey to. He has practically deified the Island. It is his justification for everything, and he has placed blind faith in that belief. Which makes me think he is wrong. Right now, he believes the Island is giving him orders through Christian. But Locke's main character flaw has always been that he puts faith in the wrong people, which inevitably causes disaster for him. I don't think that trait has changed. So I'm thinking the Island is just a physical place, where Smokey resides.

As for Jacob, I'm not sure what he is, but I don't think he is part of Smokey. Because if he were, then Smokey wouldn't need Locke to go seek him out, would he? Smokey wouldn't need Christian either. He could just appear to Locke as Jacob, making sure all of the Others (Ben included) knew that Locke was buddies with Jacob, and solidifying Locke's power. Yet Smokey seems to need Locke to find Jacob, IMO, and possibly to kill him. Which makes me think all the more that Jacob and Smokey are on opposite sides.

#51

BeenHere

BeenHere

    Couch Potato

Posted May 8, 2009 @ 12:18 PM

If the rules Charles broke were so bad, why didn't the Island throw him off a long time ago. We are in 1977 and either Penny has already been born or she will be born soon. So all those years, Eloise or Richard said nothing. Eloise and Charles were co-leaders. She could have kicked him off the Island if she wanted. I am beginning to think Charles was right when he said Ben tricked him. He staged a coup like he told Locke in "Follow the leader". He must have done that to Charles. Ben also has broken some of those rules. He has travelled off the Island before. Where did he get all that cash we saw in season 3?

Another question - We are now being lead to believe that Widmore and Eloise knew about the losties travels to the Island before 2004. Abaddon told Locke it was his job to get people to where they needed to be. He worked for Widmore so I am guessing he gave him the orders. Widmore and Eloise both worked separately to ensure that Desmond got to be on the Island and push the button. Since Eloise stated that she sent her son to the Island knowing well that ......(he was going to die?), we can assume that Widmore knew it too. The first protocal was to remove Ben by all means. Keamy was not given the order to kill Alex. Ben pissed him off which lead to him killing her. He then decided to follow the second protocal. The captain did not agree with this since he believed it was not necessary. Widmore had also made certain that both of them had to be in agreement before they followed through with it. That is why they both had two different keys. I can not remember what Charlotte and Daniel did when they first arrived? What was the name of the place where they went to and had to wear some gas masks?

Anyway, if Charles was expecting them to travel to the past, what was the purpose of removing Ben? The Island will not allow Widmore to return. He can find it but it won't allow him to return because his destiny is to lead people to where they need to be.
Did he know that Ben would trick Locke into moving the donkey wheel which would lead Charlotte, Daniel and Miles to flash through time instead of travelling at the correct intervals? I am assuming that they were always meant to time travel but it would have been different had John moved the wheel instead of Ben. If it was Locke- Kate, Jack, Locke and all of them that always went to the past would be there and not be separeted like they did where by some returned home and others stayed behind. This would explain Locke's: "we were never supposed to leave." This would also mean that Sawyer, Jin, Miles and Juliet would never have spent 3 years in the past waiting for Locke.

Theory two - if Widmore wanted to blow up the Island, not to destroy it but cause some changes. was he intending for it to happen at the same time that Daniel and the losties were in 1977? Maybe the explosion and the incident would create something. I think the thing in the box that Ilana and Bram have might be another bomb. Maybe there are supposed to be two explosions at the same time but in different timelines. One in the present and the other in 1977. Widmore did not just choose random people to go to the Island. He chose people that were connected to it in his past.

Edited by BeenHere, May 8, 2009 @ 12:30 PM.


#52

Leesters

Leesters

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 8, 2009 @ 2:12 PM

As for Jacob, I'm not sure what he is, but I don't think he is part of Smokey. Because if he were, then Smokey wouldn't need Locke to go seek him out, would he? Smokey wouldn't need Christian either. He could just appear to Locke as Jacob, making sure all of the Others (Ben included) knew that Locke was buddies with Jacob, and solidifying Locke's power. Yet Smokey seems to need Locke to find Jacob, IMO, and possibly to kill him. Which makes me think all the more that Jacob and Smokey are on opposite sides.


I think Christian is a vision created by Smokey. Just like Alex was for Ben. Just like Yemi was for Eko. And probably just like Jacob is for Richard.

I don't think the island is alive either, but I do believe all of them are all part of whatever "the island" is.

#53

BeenHere

BeenHere

    Couch Potato

Posted May 8, 2009 @ 2:17 PM

I think it is a live. Which Island that is not alive can stop a man from going to it? What about its healing abilities and the fact that it gets to choose who to heal or let die?

#54

mekkio

mekkio

    Couch Potato

Posted May 9, 2009 @ 2:28 AM

What the hell is Smokey? Watching Smokey (as Alex) tell Ben to stop thinking about killing John again, and help him.


It has been mentioned before that Smokey is a security measure for the Island. Basically, I think it's just a guard dog and nothing more. However, because it is a guard dog, someone must be holding onto its leash. That's why I think the ghosts of Alex, Yemi, Christian and the rest are the same being and that being is controlling Smokey. (I think it's taking the shapes of the dead because it can not take the shape of the living. Which may mean all the ghosts that have visited Hurley, may have been the same being. Which would explain why Miles power is so different from Hurley's. But I am still iffy on this one. It's a flimsy guess.)

Smokey is loose in the Barracks in 2007 and yet Christian has no problem hanging out there waiting for Sun and Locke to come. And even though Smokey is, again, loose, and no doubt attacking everything the moves (which is why the Others have abandon the place), Smokey doesn't attack Frank and Sun. In fact, as Christian talks to the two, it stays outside of the cabin and you can see this clearly as the door opens.

And another theory is that Ben is indeed staging a coup. (He even said it in a sarcastic matter, "What, John, don't you trust me here with my former people? Afraid I'll stage a coup?") The people helping him stage this coup? Illana and the other plane survivors who knocked out Frank. (When Ben told Illana and Bram, "Okay. Have a great day" in "Dead is dead", it was actually his code for, "Get the guns and be ready. I mean, if you think about it, why would Ben say such an odd phrase? Everyone was just in a plane crash in the middle of no where with no way to get back to the main land. How are they going to have a "great day?")

#55

Glass Ocean

Glass Ocean

    Fanatic

  • Location:Milky Way

Posted May 13, 2009 @ 1:00 AM

It has been mentioned before that Smokey is a security measure for the Island. Basically, I think it's just a guard dog and nothing more. However, because it is a guard dog, someone must be holding onto its leash. That's why I think the ghosts of Alex, Yemi, Christian and the rest are the same being and that being is controlling Smokey. (I think it's taking the shapes of the dead because it can not take the shape of the living. Which may mean all the ghosts that have visited Hurley, may have been the same being. Which would explain why Miles power is so different from Hurley's.

Boldface is mine.


If Smokey is manifested by the Island or its head honcho, why could he/it not utilize Smokey to take the forms of those others? Smokey seems quite malleable as we witnessed in the altar scenes with Ben and almost-Alex. If Smokey is essentially energy, then why not harness it to be the seemingly live figures of the dead? Why would the Top Dog have to become those folks? It would be easier to send out the energy force to animate or masquerade as them, have them say and do what is required. Obviously this power reached beyond the Island's physical limits because Jack saw his daddy several times on the mainland, and Kate saw Claire.

Not so sure about Hurley since he seems to be Everyman and does things the rest of us viewers would probably do as well as asking questions we would like to ask and get answers for. But maybe the Island/Power has a soft spot for the Big Dude because he is so innocent and naive. He can't lie to save his own ass. He's been trying to correct all the negativity that ensued from his lottery winnings and he has no ulterior motives. So maybe he is a special case.

I like the concept that Smokey can only take on the images of the dead, because that would mean that he/it was also Ben's mother in the forest on-Island luring him away from the DI. Given that there have been other instances of not-there things, like Kate's horse, then perhaps Smokey can take the form of whatever the intended viewer finds meaningful.

It is odd though that Ben could go into his secret rooms and unleash Smokey while not really being able to control it. Was that only because he was the leader at that point in time? Have we ever seen Richard and Smokey at the same time?

#56

mekkio

mekkio

    Couch Potato

Posted May 13, 2009 @ 2:03 AM

The reason why I think Smokey doesn't take on the forms of the dead but is only an attack dog being controlled by someone else is because of this hieroglyphic. The snakelike figure with the face, (I think it's supposed to be a devilish face but to me it looks like Punch from Punch and Judy), is being summoned or tended by Anubis.

In mythology, Anubis judged the newly dead's hearts by weighing it against a feather. If the heart was heavier than the feather, it was deemed unworthy of the afterlife and the organ was devoured by Ammit. Ammit was a beast with a crocodile's head, a lion's front body and an a hippo's back legs (or the three deadliest animals in an ancient Egyptian's mind.)

Now this reminds me of what happened to Eko in his last moments. Yemi shows up and tells his brother to confess his sins. In essence, weighing his heart. Eko said he had nothing to confess. To which Yemi answers, "You speak to me as if I were your brother." He vanishes and that's when Smokey attacks.

And Smokey is not manifested, it's summoned. Much like how you would summon a dog. And like a dog, it only has one form, in this case, the shape is of a snake like storm cloud. Again, Alex was not Smokey. Alex is the same being that is Christian. And that being for whatever reason can only take on the forms of the dead which also goes back to the figure of Anubis that is on the hieroglyphic. Notice Alex did not pop up until Smokey retreated back into its lair and she was behind Ben. Smokey was done with Ben. Alex/Christian wasn't.

Also in the Barracks, Christian was talking to Sun and Frank and Smokey was outside. You could see the tip of it swirling around as the door opened. So, Christian and Smokey can not be the same being if they are two different creatures.

#57

lynxish

lynxish

    Couch Potato

Posted May 13, 2009 @ 12:37 PM

It has been mentioned before that Smokey is a security measure for the Island. Basically, I think it's just a guard dog and nothing more. However, because it is a guard dog, someone must be holding onto its leash.... I think it's taking the shapes of the dead because it can not take the shape of the living. Which may mean all the ghosts that have visited Hurley, may have been the same being. Which would explain why Miles power is so different from Hurley's. But I am still iffy on this one.


If the show is going to be completely consistent, then Smokey can manifest as the living, can't it? I seem to remember, way back when, that Boone hallucinated Smokey killing Shannon, when in reality Shannon was never there (and was still very much alive). Now, it is true that Boone was tripping on whatever drug that Locke whipped up for him at the time, so we could discount that whole scene due to the drugs. But given that drug-use has been correlated with a heightened ability to commune with "the Island," and given that it was Locke who arranged this for Boone (and Locke seems tight with Smokey), I can't help but wonder if that whole thing was Smokey messing with Boone, pretending to be Shannon while Shannon was still alive. I'm a little hazy on the details from that scene, but didn't Boone actually see the Smoke Monster pummeling imaginary-Shannon? It was something along those lines, anyway.

I'm just talking off the top of my head here, but what if whoever is controlling Smokey has the same gift that Miles has? Let's say there is some mystery person who is controlling Smokey, and who can read the last thoughts/memories of the dead when he comes into contact with the actual body. Whenever a person were to die on the Island (or whose body comes to the Island, as in the case of Christian), this mystery man could go to the body, read it, and use whatever information he gets to manipulate the living (anyone who knew that person, or who might be affected by seeing that "ghost"). So our mystery man then uses Smokey to make it seem like that dead person's ghost has appeared.

Something like that would certainly explain why the Others prefer to send their dead off to sea and burn their bodies (so that Smokey, or whoever controls Smokey, won't be able to "read" the bodies). It would also explain how Smokey could appear as Yemi, since Yemi's body was on the Island. It would similarly explain how it can appear as Alex, and various other dead people whose bodies have been left on the Island, and how it can know certain things about those dead people (enough to make it seem like the ghost is really a ghost).

In this case, it wouldn't be that Smokey can't appear as a living person (or a fictional person, such as with Hurley's imaginary friend), it is that the person controlling Smokey rarely does that. Because he can't glean the kind of information from the living that he can from dead bodies, so it is easier and more effective to appear as the dead. Due to the fact that this mystery man can glean actual intelligence from the dead, whereas he may not be able to do that with the living (and can only make educated guesses with them). In other words, whoever is controlling Smokey can't read the minds of the living, so he couldn't know for sure what Ben was actually thinking, for example. But he can read the dead, and glean intelligence that will allow him to mess with the minds of the living, and from which he can make more educated guesses about what is on the minds of the living. Does that make sense? This really is completely off the top of my head, so I'm not sure how complete the theory is. But it is something to consider, anyway.

#58

mekkio

mekkio

    Couch Potato

Posted May 13, 2009 @ 1:53 PM

If the show is going to be completely consistent, then Smokey can manifest as the living, can't it?


I think there are two beings working together, Smokey, the guard dog who can only take the shape of the smoke cloud, and Christian/Alex/Yemi, the force that can take only the shape of the dead. It is Christian who is pulling Smokey's leash. As Danielle's people told her back on the beach when she was pointing a rifle at them, Smokey is a "security measure". Like a guard dog it can only attack. It cannot judge a person to worthy or an attack or not. That's what the master is for. Think of a police dog's who will sit and stay until their human partner gives the order to attack. That is the relationship of Smokey and the ghosts of the Island. Don't think of Smokey and Christian as one being because they are not. They are two separate forces.

And like you said, Boone was tripping out so you can't count that as a Christian/Alex/Yemi sighting. Much like Christian did not manifest as Mr. Cluck's mascot when Hurley was dreaming about talking to Jin in Korean. But then again, maybe talking through the dead is Christian's way of communicating and talking through dreams is another force (Jacob?) way of communicating. The two may not be linked to the same person. For example in the dream where Locke talked to Boone in the airport, Boone told Locke to, "Clean it up, John. They've got him (Eko). You don't have much time." And Locke runs off to find Eko being attacked by a single polar bear. But what if that wasn't what Boone meant since he said, "They". What if Boone was warning Locke that Smokey and Christian had Eko in their sights and that he had to save Eko from being judged, thereby saving his life? Again, this is why I think there are two styles of communicating.


I'm just talking off the top of my head here, but what if whoever is controlling Smokey has the same gift that Miles has? Let's say there is some mystery person who is controlling Smokey, and who can read the last thoughts/memories of the dead when he comes into contact with the actual body. Whenever a person were to die on the Island (or whose body comes to the Island, as in the case of Christian), this mystery man could go to the body, read it, and use whatever information he gets to manipulate the living (anyone who knew that person, or who might be affected by seeing that "ghost"). So our mystery man then uses Smokey to make it seem like that dead person's ghost has appeared...

In other words, whoever is controlling Smokey can't read the minds of the living, so he couldn't know for sure what Ben was actually thinking, for example. But he can read the dead, and glean intelligence that will allow him to mess with the minds of the living, and from which he can make more educated guesses about what is on the minds of the living.



It makes sense and it is a good theory. But how did Alex already know that Ben was planning on killing Locke already? Or was that just the Christian/Alex taking in Ben's history and figuring the man had a murderous plan in the works because, well, that's Ben for you?

Edited by TWoP Sun, May 13, 2009 @ 3:26 PM.
boards on boards


#59

Leesters

Leesters

    Loyal Viewer

Posted May 14, 2009 @ 10:40 AM

The Hbomb meets the Electromagnetic pocket and that won't be a good thing.


I'm sticking with my theory that the hatch still gets built. WHH. Juliet blew herself up to cause the incident. Which was what always happened. Sad.

There are two forces on the Island; Jacob and Christian or what ever Christian is and they have been feuding for thousands of years.


mekkio nailed this one. Its the first theory on this thread. Page 1. Posted a long time ago. Check it out. Genius!

_________

So folks, its going to be a long offseason.

Does Oceanic 815 land in LA now? Or does the hatch still get built?

Who is Black Shirt Guy and why does he look like Locke, now? Is BSG also parading around as Christian? You know, corpse lands on the island and starts showing up everywhere? Saying goodbye to Michael and not getting blown up was a neat trick, though. WTF, over?

Time to talk about some theories about why I saw Jacob die 2 hours after I met him.

#60

Scrunt11

Scrunt11

    Couch Potato

Posted May 14, 2009 @ 2:14 PM

Locke. I must say, I predicted this from the beginning, so this guy who's now in Lockes body or whatever, I knew it. Here was my theory.

John Locke is no longer alive not in the traditional, off-Island sense of being ''alive.'' The new Locke who washed up this season is an Island creation imprinted with the old Locke's consciousness. This is not the same thing as reincarnation. Because its someone else IN Locke. New Locke can thrive only on the Island; if he strays from its life-giving power, he will gradually die.

Now heres the loophole they were talking about.

The thing about New Locke: He either has no soul, or his consciesness is up for grabs when he dies. Im serious. And this is part of the secret to the great saga of Lost. John Locke's body, in any form, has NEVER had a soul. His life is the story of complicated destiny and radical course correction, one that is complicated. Remember: Locke was born three months prematurely after a car struck his pregnant teenage mother. We never saw the driver. But now we know it was the dude in opposittion to Jacob at the beginning of last nights ep. Locke grew up nagged by a feeling that he was meant for a different kind of life. And he was: We now know that the Island has been trying to bring him there since he was a little boy. My theory is this: This anti Jacob dude went back in time to kill Locke's mom in order to prevent Locke's birth. It didn't work but the would-be murderer did succeed in making a mess of Locke's predestined life. Locke's eternal soul was displaced from its body and it went to the Island, where it's been waiting for reunification. This guy reuinified himself with it. My guess is that we'll find this out next season.

So Locke is not dead. His mind just isn't around, if that makes sense. The same way Desmond's mind can travel through time, so can black shirt guy. Only black shirt guy was able to snatch Locke by bringing him back to life.

So...theres that. Whatever.

Edited by Scrunt11, May 14, 2009 @ 2:15 PM.