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Callie and Arizona: She Thinks She'll Know


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#1891

Jenrin

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Posted Sep 16, 2013 @ 2:23 AM

The inner thoughts Callie shared with Mark were about Arizona, and not in complaints but rather fears or using him as a sounding board. They weren't about her as an individual, her dreams, or experiences.

 

 

She bitched to him about painting her apartment while he gave her a foot massage and she drank wine from a bottle. Mark also knew about her Catholic guilt and need for the over-the-top baby shower. This was all dialed way back in season 8, but it was still presented that maybe Mark did know Callie better than Arizona. 


I never got the impression that Callie and Arizona didn't get each other, and to me it kept growing.

 

 

I do believe their understanding of each other has improved, but their differences often seem to cause annoyance and frustration in the other that hovers just under the surface. I think of Callie complaining about Arizona’s need to ‘be perfect’ to Bailey before Arizona was willing to walk in front of others, and Arizona’s dislike of Callie’s tendency to over share, or her response to Callie’s need to talk Bailey out of her funk. 

 

The deleted Valentine scene of her mentioning Mark isn't canon for a reason, things had shifted then and it wasn't necessary to use that for Callie to tell her how happy she was with her

 

 

I think that scene was deleted because Callie rolled on top of Arizona and it was censored. (It’s a position they’ve never shown them in before or since.) Arizona also jumped straight to Mark when Callie told her she needed to have a baby and they broke up.


But Callie never did anything to give Arizona reason to believe that she loved Mark the way she loved her.

 

 

For a long time Callie chose Mark’s feelings over Arizona’s. When Callie was pregnant, she treated the two equally, without any boundaries. Also, Mark, unbeknownst to Callie, explicitly implied to Arizona that he and Callie would make another kid if their baby didn’t survive. In season 8, she didn’t send Mark to his apartment with a slice of pizza because of Arizona’s feelings but rather her own. In season 9, Callie mourned Mark to the point of ridiculousness on a tv show that typically dumps dead people over a cliff never to be discussed again. 

 

Does this mean I think Callie had any romantic feelings for Mark? No. But it means I have vast amounts of understanding for any insecurities Arizona harbors about this particular relationship. And I think Callie made a lot of selfish and hurtful mistakes.

 

But again, I see this as Callie not understanding how Arizona could even think Mark had more of her.

 

 

I think this is entirely possible, that doesn’t excuse her behavior and her unwillingness to listen to Arizona. It’s not like it was just one time. Callie scoffed at Arizona’s feelings about Mark on multiple occasions.    
 

There was never a time, even in their early dating when Callie and Mark were shown as having a flirtatious, and "I feel special in a way no one else makes me relationship".

 

 

Agreed. But they still jumped into the sack on a frequent basis and Mark’s sexual prowess was discussed around Arizona ad naseum. We, the audience, witnessed Callie tell Mark that having sex with him made her sad and miss Arizona, but we never saw her offer the same confession to Arizona.




I truly believe, and I think there is evidence to support this, that the cheating was added on at the last minute to create "drama."

 

I can see where folks have this impression based on Shonda telling everyone that she changed everything at the last minute. But she said that right around the filming of episode 22, with Hilarie already signed for three episodes. I’m really not convinced that this was a last minute change.

 

They don't give Callie or Arizona enough screen time to sufficiently demonstrate what someone in Arizona's position might be feeling.  

 

I agree that they didn’t give Arizona’s emotional POV proper screen time last season. BUT we did get a pretty good story of her physical recovery. The problem for fans of Arizona is that we spent the entire season anxiously waiting to hear Arizona’s story in her own words. Honestly, I do believe that Shonda set this up intending for the story to go two seasons. It’s annoying as hell as a fan, but that’s what Shonda does with Grey’s, she draws these arcs out forever.

 

Arizona being an addict, which would be perfectly plausible since she would have been in so much pain, would have been a way to destroy their trust.

 

It absolutely would have been an alternative angle that could have been explored. I actually wanted this story for Callie way back in season 8, post crash. Would it have been better? That remains to be seen.

 

I acknowledge that I will have to concede that if they say that Arizona cheated a reason other than malice, then it is cannon. However, that doesn't mean I have to accepted as being true…. Based on the argument Callie and Arizona had, her reaction to Callie confronting her over the cheating by invoking the crash, Callie's insinuation into the lawsuit, and her feeling that Callie committed a grave wrong and breach of trust by permitting Alex to sever her leg.   

 

For me, the argument was separate from the cheating and not used by Arizona to justify it. She was attempting to apologize for the cheating (very poorly) and to agree with Callie that they were fine and getting better. I took her reaction at the end of her speech, crying and burying her head in her hands, as a sign that her words surprised and appalled her as much as they devastated Callie.

 

These toxic feelings and her massive insecurities due to her physical loss allowed space for cheating. But the cheating itself wasn’t caused by any desire to get back at Callie. Funny enough, it was the desire NOT to hurt Callie that ended up being her downfall. 

 

Instead of fighting with Callie or continuing to berate her post episode 4, Arizona actively chose to shove these horrible feelings down, and to ‘be Callie’s wife.’ If we’re allowed to accept the narrative we were shown on screen, my read is that she did it because she loved Callie, but also, by episodes 9/10, was terrified she might lose her if she didn’t shape up.

 

And as angry as she obviously is at Callie, that’s always been her biggest fear. I think her speech to her patient in episode 13 explains it best. She told her patient that she wasn’t going to let her drag others down with her, and that’s what she tried not to do. She just utterly failed.

 

Is this a generous reading? Yes. But does it make sense with everything we know about Arizona’s character over the seasons, including 9? Yes.

 

 

 


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#1892

lem0915

lem0915

    Channel Surfer

Posted Sep 16, 2013 @ 11:04 PM

Frankie5Angel:

"I have rejected other portrayals of things. For example, the cannon of the show was that Callie's relationship with Mark was innocent and okay."

 

 

Maybe I'm not really understanding canon, as only what is said, the action, the voice over (Meredith's narration), and music used. I thought from that it is up to the audience to interpret what the story is and how they feel about it. That's why it's interesting to talk about it, and see if others get the same impressions or not and why. In any interpretation of creative work one extreme is going only by what the creator/writer/showrunner is trying to convey (this alone does make it boring, and I understand what you are saying). The other extreme is only emotional, through the lens of our own experiences and preferences, and in the middle is a combination of both.

 

Using Callie and Mark as an example - when I step back and look at the writer playing with the characters to make an interesting story, and have it make sense, Callie having a male best friend (canon) fits (my interpretation of the writing). What is shown as canon: she was the girl in the back of the class eating her hair, other women look at her as "dirty hot", and she didn't make any women friend connections when she showed up. We also know that her introduction to Mark was as a one night stand, and again in their early friendship to prove she wasn't bisexual. Next it was shown them trying their pattern to not sleep with interns, and an empty kiss was the end of that. Next it was showing them to be platonic, talking through issues that had to do Lexi, Arizona, Sloane and his grandchild, and scenes together with each of these other characters with their reactions to their friendship. The only time their relationship was stated to be innocent and okay was by the character Lexi, that was how "she" saw it at that point in time, only that character's opinion. Canon is she said it, but it's left to the audience how to interpret it.

 

How each of us react to what was shown, what the character's motivations are, their reactions to each other, the words used and their tone all come down to our interpretations. Logically, of course, the writer's are hoping to emotionally engage the audience in the story they want to tell. And also it seems logical that if the majority of an audience talking on a board feel the same way then it is the right interpretation. But emotionally it just doesn't hold up, we naturally feel more empathy for characters we identify with, have charged feelings when seeing something we've been through, or have a different sensibility on what is funny. And on the other extreme of purely the writer's intentions, and even the actresses interpretations we often don't agree with them.

 



Jenrin:

"Does this mean I think Callie had any romantic feelings for Mark? No. But it means I have vast amounts of understanding for any insecurities Arizona harbors about this particular relationship. And I think Callie made a lot of selfish and hurtful mistakes."

 

 

 

I had a different perspective on some of the examples you gave, and it just goes to show that scene over scene and episode over episode we all pick up a tone that carries onward. I know when I'm jarred by a scene, the prior or following ones may not even register or I view them significantly differently had I not viewed the one with a visceral reaction. There really isn't right or wrong in it.

 

What I get after the fact about Arizona's insecurities is that they specifically revolved around Callie having a baby (that's why I think the Valentine's Day scene was deleted because it was out of context when they knew Africa was coming and would bring it up again then. The on top of in bed, they could have done a retake). She didn't jump Mark for being in her girlfriend's bed scratching pox, she only brought him up at the initial baby idea, why should she trust Callie to have a baby with, and after the baby shower. To me, having him open the door on them, or lay in their bed was a poor attempt at humor.  

 

The writer's were still establishing Arizona's character in season 6 and 7. She had been brought on as the sunny, perky, all loving and understanding character who was only a device for the plot of Bailey figuring out whether she belonged in PEDS (and that extended once Arizona stayed). She was so kind, caring, and proficient she broke through Bailey's armor (and Alex's spewing at her) in a few episodes. So the writer's continued to build on that. Everything about Arizona's core character is good nature, forgiving, caring above and beyond, someone who walks the walk/talks the talk, competent, redeems others by seeing the good in them (which she did with Mark). But the writer's couldn't just let her be stagnant or become a cliché, they had to flesh her out and give her drama. Shonda said that's why she had her not want babies, because she had been too perfect. Obviously Shonda doesn't think every woman should want babies, but rather it was something to reveal more of Arizona beyond what we had seen and it fit with Callie's character wanting them.

 

It also makes sense for the writer's to throw crap at her type of character to see how she deals with it, and the audience roots for her, and loves when the bastard (Mark) eventually gets put in their place. I think at times that put Callie's character in the middle and she could be blamed for not stopping it, but that wasn't necessarily the story. Arizona mostly took the high road with Mark, which was in character, and I didn't view her as a victim but a strong woman able to handle herself. And for most it was okay because Callie was firmly established as loyal and loving, and in love with Arizona as no one ever before. I can see both of them being selfish at times, but neither hurtful to others (beyond a dumb Grey's joke) or each other.

 

Callie was a monster when she was pregnant and didn't care about making Arizona feel more important than Mark, all she cared about was the baby, normal but exaggerated for bad humor and drama. So, again here was a chance for the writer's to show how loving Arizona could be in an impossible situation. Also, I really believe the writer's deconstructed Callie in season 7, they opened her back up to her insecurities, darkness, drinking and using sex, jumping without thought, being unforgiving. Through that I think she got closure on her past and they started reconstructing her with being an adult and having a plan, wanting to be married, and making boundaries with Mark.

 

So now the writer's decided to show exactly what would break a character as good natured as Arizona in the way of being a trauma survivor and amputee. And they deconstructed her in a much more painful way than Callie. To me the good news is that even though she may have to go through more emotional pain I believe it will be towards reconstruction, and her character is going to be richer for it and more of an individual. In part I think that's why they highlighted Callie's coopting her experience so loudly, because for the first time Arizona was written with experiences that were hers alone and they are going to build on that.  


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#1893

simply215

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Posted Sep 29, 2013 @ 11:00 AM

Does anyone think that Arizona maybe cheated in order to give Callie an out?  I have no doubt that Arizona is a bit messed up in the head right now and if they end up going with the PTSD story line then she may truly not know why she did it.  Hopefully the writers will explore this more in depth and per the interviews with JCap there is going to be an exploration of some type.  I don't think "it's all about the leg" but also about Arizona's fear of losing everyone close to her.  I think they are end game and with the possible exit of Ellen and Patrick next year and if the show continues for one more season, they'll need another "super couple" to take over.  If the writers are able to build this relationship up again and make both characters likable (Arizona) Calzona fans will go nuts.  


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#1894

PoeticJustice32

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Posted Sep 29, 2013 @ 1:43 PM

Does anyone think that Arizona maybe cheated in order to give Callie an out?


I can see that. I just mentioned in the episode thread the scene from last year when Callie had to snatch Arizona up off the bathroom floor and they were on the shower and Callie broke down saying "this" was her life. I think that was when Arizona put on her happy pants back on and started faking that everything was ok. It could be that she didn't want Callie to feel guilty for leaving her bcause of the difficulties of the amputation and so gave Callie a real reason. Could that be something she subconsciously did? Perhaps, but I don't know how Shonda would be able to explain that in any meaningful way for the characters and the general audience to buy.
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#1895

simply215

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Posted Sep 29, 2013 @ 3:53 PM

Yes, I agree it may have been sub-concious on Arizona's part so it would be tough to explain.  I'm still trying to figure how Shonda is going to explain all of this.  JCap has said in interviews that Arizona is going to go further "down the rabbit hole."  I think at some point she's going to crack and am trying to think of what the catalyst will be.  I'm thinking something will have to bring them together, so what about something happening to Sofia?  The fact that creepy intern Leah mentioned her mom knew Mark and he helped her get into medical school leads me to believe she could be his daughter.  Maybe she'll have to do something to help Sofia with some medical issue down the road?  That may be a bit far fetched, but I'm racking my brain as to how Shonda is going to rebuild Arizona's character.  Right now all the boards are really coming down on Arizona and saying Callie should break up with her.  I think there's more to why she did what she did, as JCap and Shonda have said, and I'm curious to see how it's all explained. Either way I think both her and Callie will grow as individuals and end up falling in love with each other all over again. 


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#1896

Frankie5Angels

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Posted Sep 30, 2013 @ 12:38 AM

 

 

 

 


 

I can see that. I just mentioned in the episode thread the scene from last year when Callie had to snatch Arizona up off the bathroom floor and they were on the shower and Callie broke down saying "this" was her life. I think that was when Arizona put on her happy pants back on and started faking that everything was ok. It could be that she didn't want Callie to feel guilty for leaving her bcause of the difficulties of the amputation and so gave Callie a real reason. Could that be something she subconsciously did? Perhaps, but I don't know how Shonda would be able to explain that in any meaningful way for the characters and the general audience to buy.


I didn't take the shower scene that way. 

 

1. We have to start out with the beginning of the episode because it is part of what built up to the shower scene. When the episode opens, Callie was talking to Arizona about the settlement meetings and how they all had to be there. Callie was saying how much it would help them, that Sofia wouldn't have to pay for med school, and then her voice trailed off. Then Callie said, "You know what I want most? I want to know what you're thinking." It was clear to me that Callie was pleading with Arizona to talk to her about anything because Arizona was giving her the silent treatment. Callie then left for work before asking Arizona be nice to this new one and not to throw things at this new person (call back to when Callie was firing her physical therapists after her accident). Callie told Arizona that she should be there because she (Callie) wasn't there and, because of that, she shouldn't be making that decision for her. Arizona unloaded on her about how Callie was okay with deciding to cut her leg off without consulting her. Then Callie said, "Fine. I'll make all decisions from here on out."

 

Now, when Callie came home to get Arizona for the meeting, she got a bit frantic because she didn't answer her. She found her in the bathroom and was  concerned about her. Arizona confirmed that, again, she fired the nurse. Callie only lost her temper with Arizona yelled at her when she asked if she was okay. Arizona upped the ante and, finally, had enough of Arizona's verbal abuse and acting like she was the only one impacted by her amputation. I think Callie, though they were yelling at one another, was trying to express frustration and solidarity. "This is my life now too," was, in my opinion, her way of telling Arizona that what she does impacts Callie because Arizona is her wife, the mother of her child, and she's not going anywhere. And, Callie has to worry about Arizona's safety when Arizona throws the nurses out. Arizona winds up on the floor and helpless when that happens. This impacts Callie because she cares. Again, it is her life too because her wife's safety  Yes, the line about the bathroom stinking wasn't exactly kind, was a kick in the ass and a reaction to the fight they were having. 

 

Arizona did not begin to put her happy face on after that incident. She was still very nasty to Callie after that. The episode after 9x03 was the one in which she got fitted for her prosthetic. Arizona was mean to the prosthetist. She was downright disrespectful to the guy who was just trying to do his job which was to help her. The way she acted was not that of someone who put on her happy face after she shower scene. On top of that, when Callie came to get her but was early because she didn't check her voicemail, Arizona was so nasty to her in front of the prosthetist, no less. She screamed at her:

 

Callie: Oh, sorry, I thought you'd be ready.

 

Arizona: That's because you didn't check your voicemail, you just checked to see who called. If you had just checked your freakin' voicemail you would have known I was going to be here for a while because YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE FREAKIN' MESSAGE!

 

It was really mean and really humiliating to scream at Callie and belittle her that way in front of someone else. Again, I don't see how one can say that the shower incident was somehow instrumental in forcing Arizona to put on her mask. But, she did begin to soften in this episode and it had nothing to do with Callie. Alex showed up and he examined her residual limb, something Arizona would never have let Callie do. She let him touch it, check it for post-op recovery, and he told her it looked great. For the first time since she lost her leg, Arizona displayed a bit of humor. ("So, have you completely destroyed my department yet?") Alex told her that they needed her back, she said to him that she's trying, and Alex said, "Callie's trying too, you know." It was that, not the mischaracterization of the shower scene, that got through to Arizona. If you need more proof that Arizona wasn't all sweetness and light in account of Callie's alleged browbeating and blackmailing of her, look at the last scene of them at home. Callie looked scared of Arizona and seemed frightened that anything she said would cause Arizona to unload her. SaRa did an excellent job conveying how nervous and walking on eggshells Callie was. Callie was skittish and rather tentatively told Arizona that she would be going back to Mark's to sleep. I never thought I would describe Callie Torres as meek, but she was. Even when Arizona offered her an invitation to watch American Bakeoff (is that a thing?), Callie still looked unsure and as if she were going to sit on an explosive. 

 

I don't know how anyone could take that to mean that Callie somehow bullied Arizona into doing anything before she was ready. She was scared of upsetting her. And, it was Bailey, not Callie, who got Arizona out of the door and back to work. In fact, Callie had to run away so that Arizona, the baby bird (TM Bailey), wouldn't fly away. Arizona decided when she would return to work. Arizona decided when she would operate again. Callie was supportive and it appeared, by the way Arizona was acting, they were back on track. Callie came home one day to see Arizona having  dance party with Sofia. She told Callie that she fell during surgery, but she soothed Callie's fears by saying, "I got back up." Callie followed Arizona's lead and was mislead by Arizona who refused to let her wife in on what pain she was feeling. 

 

I will concede that Callie's saying to Arizona, "You are the exact same person you were just minus a leg," was really insensitive, extremely offensive (even if she didn't mean it that way), and ignorant. I suppose she just wanted to show and tell her that she wanted her sexually and that her feelings for her hadn't change, but that is no excuse for how belittling that was. It broke my heart when Arizona said she didn't have a prosthetic to accommodate a high heel. I don't know why, but that made me well up. 


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#1897

Jenrin

Jenrin

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Posted Sep 30, 2013 @ 1:44 AM

Arizona did not begin to put her happy face on after that incident.

 

 

No, she didn't put on a happy face, but she did agree to leave the apartment in order to go to the hospital to meet with the prosthesis which was a huge step for her. She dug herself out of the depths of the depression she was living in because IMO, she finally 'saw' Callie's despair too. She was still bitterly angry and lashing out, but she was trying, as she said to Alex. He pushed her to give Callie a break, and she immediately did. Episode 4 was the last time we saw her truly lash out at Callie. (Until the finale that is!) 

 

Unfortunately, just because she wasn't saying them out loud didn't make these horrible thoughts and feelings magically go away. And it didn't stop her from building additional resentments as Callie took her words to heart and started making all of the decisions for them both without much further consultation. 

 

Does this mean everything that happened in season 9 was false? I absolutely understand why Callie would think this to be true and doesn't feel like she can trust Arizona. Personally, I don't think Arizona knows much of anything right now in terms of her thoughts and feelings. I think she's a giant internal mess. And so I can't wait to watch her figure herself out and discover the why of it all. 

 

Like I just said in the episode review thread, I am very uncomfortable with everyone judging the way Arizona dealt with losing her leg. This is an incredibly traumatic experience that the vast majority of us haven't gone through. And even for those who have, even for those who've triumphed quicker and better than Arizona, there are those who don't.

 

Arizona wasn't a superhero. She tried, she failed, she tried harder, and ultimately she fell further and took Callie down with her. It's not pretty right now. But that doesn't prevent her from rising again. I get that some are never going to forgive her weakness. I'm very disappointed in the cheating, but I'm choosing compassion for now. I'm very interested to hear both of their truths in these upcoming episodes because these truths apparently go back to before they were a couple. (Callie's reference to dancing in her underwear was even pre-George!) 

 

This is going to be illuminating, and I believe, ultimately, their marriage will be stronger. 


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#1898

lurker22

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Posted Sep 30, 2013 @ 3:15 AM

 

Like I just said in the episode review thread, I am very uncomfortable with everyone judging the way Arizona dealt with losing her leg.

 

I completely agree. I'm actually astonished at the lack of empathy, compassion and understanding from some people for the kind of life-altering injury that amputees go through. Say what you will of Shonda, I'm glad Shonda, the writers and Jessica decided to tell this story, and actually portrayed the more realistic but slow and painful physical and emotional recovery some amputees go through, instead of doing the TV magic that so many shows do and have Arizona recover completely within a couple of episodes. I know that this story has opened my eyes to what amputees go through. I can only hope that if something this horrific happens to me or my loved ones (hopefully never), I can handle it with compassion and grace.

 

 

Arizona wasn't a superhero. She tried, she failed, she tried harder, and ultimately she fell further and took Callie down with her. It's not pretty right now. But that doesn't prevent her from rising again.

 

I'm definitely rooting for Arizona to rise again, and I believe that she will. Like Jessica said in her early S9 interviews, I don't think Shonda intended to let this be a "story of defeat". The journey may take longer than anticipated, and is harder than expected, but it will be worth it in the end. I think Shonda's tweet of doing horrible things to the most innocent characters to see what they're made of still applies, and Arizona will emerge stronger out of all this (Webber's voiceover). I'm most interested in the journey to find out who Arizona truly is, especially outside of her relationship with Callie.


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#1899

NYluv

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Posted Sep 30, 2013 @ 10:30 AM

I am very uncomfortable with everyone judging the way Arizona dealt with losing her leg.

 

I'm not seeing people judging how Arizona is dealing with her leg.  What I'm seeing is people discussing how Arizona SEEMS unsympathetic to what she's done.

Point being: Arizona has yet to apologize - for her outburst, and for her infidelity.  Giving her the benefit of the doubt, she herself just started to begin to realize at the end of the episode how big of a mess her indiscretion has made. But her saying sorry and her continuing to overcome her loss can only be mutually exclusive for so long (if mutually exclusive at all).

 

In the premiere, Arizona apologized once: For calling Callie a baby-snatcher.  Her "we all say things we don't mean" in the OR was an Arizona Robbin's type A "I have a problem admitting my faults" poor attempt at an apology, but isn't even close to being good enough - but at least we see her acknowledge her lashing out at Callie. And the only time she hints at her infidelity to Callie - aside from the "big slut" conversation with Alex - was when she says how she knows Callie is upset and can get why she told everyone... 

It's frustrating and crazy how she's being so nonchalant about this whole thing. But I know it's not on purpose (at least I hope it isn't!), it's part of the trouble she's having and not even knowing she's having.  But it's understandable that other fans of the show - those not invested in C/A or Arizona, or the casual viewer who doesn't divulge in interviews and behind the scenes stuff and just take things at face value - would see things a bit differently and be frustrated at Arizona's current behavior. 


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#1900

Frankie5Angels

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Posted Sep 30, 2013 @ 9:21 PM

 

 

I completely agree. I'm actually astonished at the lack of empathy, compassion and understanding from some people for the kind of life-altering injury that amputees go through

 

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because people are lacking in empathy because dislike that Arizona cheated on Callie, ruined her family, made it so that now Callie has less time with their daughter, has wrecked Sofia's home life (unfortunately, I expect we won't, but can we try to agree that Sofia is an innocent?), and has injured the people who love her most? Or that we laugh at the whole "I'm a Good Man in A Storm" speech, talking about some, "I protect the things I love," when, in fact, she was fucking some slore, hurting the people she allegedly loves, and not protecting them or even concerned about their safety? Come on. 

 

If you're going to demonize us for blaming Arizona for her cheating and holding her to account, then let me caution you against the bigotry of that position. Saying that people with a disability shouldn't be held to the same moral standards as the rest of us is akin to saying that they are, by virtue of their disability, incapable of the same morality of those without a disability and have a lower baseline lever of decency. Expecting less is not empathy. 

 


Say what you will of Shonda, I'm glad Shonda, the writers and Jessica decided to tell this story, and actually portrayed the more realistic but slow and painful physical and emotional recovery some amputees go through, instead of doing the TV magic that so many shows do and have Arizona recover completely within a couple of episodes. I know that this story has opened my eyes to what amputees go through. I can only hope that if something this horrific happens to me or my loved ones (hopefully never), I can handle it with compassion and grace.

 

 

 

 

An invitation to say something about Shonda? That's more than a girl can resist. Her portrayal of the aftermath of a trans-tibial amputation is totally whitewashed and. like most of the medicine on this show, it is totally wrong. Amputees require much more post-op care than we saw and it wouldn't have just involved her getting fitted for her prosthetic. She should have been doing strength exercises in preparation for crutches. Someone would have been massaging what remained of her limb to avoid swelling and muscle rigidity (almost immediately after the surgery; that would have gone over well with Arizona). Where was Arizona's compression sock? Also, be prepared for some heavy duty drugs and dealing with the nodding you'd see in a heroin addict as those drugs are ten times, sometimes a hundred times stronger than heroin. Take it from me, those drugs are fun! But, it wouldn't be very fun to get yourself or a person in pain over losing a leg to slow it down. Speaking of which, how on earth would Arizona operate on pain killers for the 12-18 months she'd need them? I bet that would contribute to Arizona's depression!

 

Shonda's take on amputation is no less superficial, false. "feel good," than the other ones you've criticized. I think your reaction of and perception that this is anything close to reality has done a disservice. Yes, I suppose it is good that there is attention to amputees because they are ignored especially when there is a mass casualty event in favor of the dead. I think that that unfairness in our society was reflected on Grey's Anatomy. Mark got that stupid video, but we never got to see three much more important things: when Callie found out that Arizona was alive, Arizona and Callie reuniting, an Arizona waking up from her surgery without her leg. Once again, Mark interferes with important scene. I suppose we should be glad we didn't have to watch that stupid applause scene AND be deprived of an important Calzona scene


Edited by Frankie5Angels, Oct 1, 2013 @ 1:24 AM.

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#1901

pointybird

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Posted Oct 1, 2013 @ 2:56 AM

If you're going to demonize us for blaming Arizona for her cheating and holding her to account, then let me caution you against the bigotry of that position.

 

I don't think anybody is is saying that Arizona shouldn't be held to account because of her disability; nor is anyone being in any way bigoted such that they need to be 'cautioned' against holding certain views.

 

Nobody is absolving Arizona of responsibility for having a one night stand because she now has one leg.  Rather, people are searching for an explanation of why she cheated.  The emotional fall out of a life changing trauma isn't an excuse, but in the context of a marriage in which both parties fail to communicate with emotional honesty, it might be a reason. 

 

On another note, I find the use of pejorative terms such as whore and slut in reference to female sexuality hugely disappointing.  It's like feminism never happened.


Edited by pointybird, Oct 1, 2013 @ 4:37 AM.

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#1902

PoeticJustice32

PoeticJustice32

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 1, 2013 @ 7:09 AM

I didn't take the shower scene that way. 

Neither did I. But that doesn't mean the character Arizona felt the same as the viewers who have a more well rounded view of what Callie was going through. Communication (or lack thereof) is this couple's biggest issue. I reapply wouldn't be surprised if that scene is referenced by either Callie or Arizona later on. I think that was a turning point for something.

I think some people have been unfair to Arizona regarding her disability and this went on before the cheating episode. The constant comments about how mean or unfair Arizona was to Callie. How she should just get over it because "hey, at least she's not dead like Mark and Lexie". It was all a bit disconcerting to me. Even people bringing up the fact that Arizona told Callie to go pick up "her" daughter and using it as proof that Arizona doesn't love or care about Sofia. I'm like seriously??


 
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#1903

CED9

CED9

    Couch Potato

Posted Oct 1, 2013 @ 9:23 AM

There's a universal relatibility to cheating that there isn't to having a disability. And what it's done is, once again, absolve Callie of all wrongdoing. Extremely unfortunate, but annoyingly predictable.
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#1904

PoeticJustice32

PoeticJustice32

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 1, 2013 @ 2:37 PM

Its funny because I've been cheated on but I don't have a disability nor do I personally know anyone who does, but I can still empathize with Arizona having to go through such a traumatic experience.

 

I just haven't been able to muster up a huge level of venom toward Arizona. Was she wrong for cheating?  Well of course, but I don't think cheating is the worst thing ever.  Practically everyone on this show has cheated with a married person or been married while they cheated. Callie herself was married when she cheated on George.  I don't consider Arizona a bad person.   I think she does love Callie and Sofia, and wants to be a family.

 

Sometimes I think I have a bit of residual anger toward Callie from two-three season ago:

 

For a long time Callie chose Mark’s feelings over Arizona’s.

 

Absolutely.  This started even before Callie and Arizona got married and had a baby.  Early on Arizona took issue with Mark always looking at her boobs.  Arizona brought this issue up with Callie, and instead of just telling Mark to cut it out because it makes her girlfriend uncomfortable, she told Arizona to "let Mark stare".  It was something pretty minor but its representative of a problem that wrecked havoc on their relationship. 


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#1905

Simply Soaps

Simply Soaps

Posted Oct 1, 2013 @ 7:45 PM

 

Absolutely. This started even before Callie and Arizona got married and had a baby. Early on Arizona took issue with Mark always looking at her boobs. Arizona brought this issue up with Callie, and instead of just telling Mark to cut it out because it makes her girlfriend uncomfortable, she told Arizona to "let Mark stare". It was something pretty minor but its representative of a problem that wrecked havoc on their relationship. 

How did that wreck havoc on their relationship? Callie ultimately choose Arizona over everything, her job, her friends, and Mark. Her reward was to be dumped at the airport.


Edited by Simply Soaps, Oct 1, 2013 @ 7:46 PM.

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#1906

Frankie5Angels

Frankie5Angels

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 1, 2013 @ 9:02 PM

 
I don't think anybody is is saying that Arizona shouldn't be held to account because of her disability; nor is anyone being in any way bigoted such that they need to be 'cautioned' against holding certain views.
 

 

I was just trying to be nice to the people who were staking out the moral high ground when, in fact, they were scraping the bottom of the barrel by being bigoted. It is hypocritical to cast someone else as the bad guy when you're doing something much worse than allegedly not having empathy for a fictional character. I would say that painting an entire class of people, real people, with with the same brush and denying them their agency because it makes you feel better, is much worse than not siding with a fictional entity. 

 

 

 


On another note, I find the use of pejorative terms such as whore and slut in reference to female sexuality hugely disappointing.  It's like feminism never happened.

 

 

 

 
This is a breakthrough! Revenge fucking and preying on the obvious emotional vulnerability of another person has been discovered to be key and exclusive to female sexuality? Has it supplanted the XX chromosomes to identify a human as female? I never knew that this was an immutable trait linked to my femaleness. What a great day for feminism: the most common and pernicious idea about women has just been validated by someone who links s/he is a feminist  Somebody call Gayatri Spivak to tell her of this breakthrough!
 
 
Dr. Jump-Off clearly knew that Arizona was vulnerable since the loss of her leg and she played on that to get her into bed. Solidarity, not subverting, is a tenet of feminism. Anything a woman achieves at the expense of a woman less privileged than her is anti-feminist. It's as if intersectionality never happened.
I think she does love Callie and Sofia, and wants to be a family.

 

 

I think she loved Callie and Sofia once, but maybe not now. And, yes, cheating isn't the worst thing in the world, it might be one of the worst things you can do if you want a family or at least the family you have when you've cheated. Maybe she still does want a family, just not this one

I

think some people have been unfair to Arizona regarding her disability and this went on before the cheating episode. The constant comments about how mean or unfair Arizona was to Callie. How she should just get over it because "hey, at least she's not dead like Mark and Lexie".

 

 

SaRa and JCap played those scenes so well that it was hard not to feel sad for Callie. Capshaw did an excellent job of exuding coldness and contempt, while Ramirez played the skittish wife really well. Those scenes were uncomfortable to watch which means they were executed really well. 

 

I really think the audience would have been more prone to sympathize with Arizona had we been shown her waking up from the amputation surgery without her leg. I think seeing that devastation, shock, and anger would have shown the "you could be dead" sentiment to be as reductive as it is. That's not to say that people would start agreeing with Arizona that Callie did something awful and broke her trust by not allowing her to die, but witnessing that moment when she woke up to find that they had done the transtibial amputation, realizing Callie had to give them approval to do it, that Callie had given them the go ahead to do it, and the subsequent freakout may have massaged the audience better. And, I also think we should have had more than a few seconds of those two fighting over it. It's the missing scenes and the scenes we should have seen that often drives audience sentiment. Can you imagine if, instead of that absurd Mark tribute video, we got to see what would become the most talked about story line this year? (#Arizona, #Calzona, and #Callie trended worldwide on premiere night). From beyond the grave even, Mark interferes in their relationship

 

How did that wreck havoc on their relationship? Callie ultimately choose Arizona over everything, her job, her friends, and Mark. Her reward was to be dumped at the airport.

 

 

The lack of boundaries was a problem in their relationship, especially because Mark and Callie used to be fuck buddies. And, I know I would be pissed if I told my girlfriend that her best friend stares me uncomfortable by staring at my breasts and she laughed it off by saying, "That's because they're good boobs," I would be very angry. Mark barging into their bedroom and staying long enough to leer is a lack of boundaries. Mark calling/texting incessantly while Arizona and Callie are having a weekend away is from a lack of boundaries.  And, although Arizona doesn't know about it, Callie reflexively offering to raise Mark's grandson with him is also because of a lack of boundaries. Personally, I don't know how Arizona could agree to raise a baby with Mark Sloan because it meant him being in her life forever, it gave him even more access to her private life, he would factor into her private life, and the definitely would have been "I'm Sofia's father, you're nothing" moments.  According to "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" (I forget the episode number), Mark says she wakes up to him in her kitchen everyday. There was literally no escape and Sofia wiped all boundaries away. I can see how that can weigh down a relationship.

 

Sometimes I felt they wrote the story as if Callie had a wife and a husband (without the sex). I know people say Mark is cute, sweet, and harmless, but he's only that way when he's not screwing your wife in your bed, sleeping with your girlfriend, or gifting you to another man as if you were chattel. 


Edited by Frankie5Angels, Oct 1, 2013 @ 9:26 PM.

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#1907

Simply Soaps

Simply Soaps

Posted Oct 1, 2013 @ 10:06 PM

 

The lack of boundaries was a problem in their relationship, especially because Mark and Callie used to be fuck buddies. And, I know I would be pissed if I told my girlfriend that her best friend stares me uncomfortable by staring at my breasts and she laughed it off by saying, "That's because they're good boobs," I would be very angry. Mark barging into their bedroom and staying long enough to leer is a lack of boundaries. Mark calling/texting incessantly while Arizona and Callie are having a weekend away is from a lack of boundaries. And, although Arizona doesn't know about it, Callie reflexively offering to raise Mark's grandson with him is also because of a lack of boundaries. Personally, I don't know how Arizona could agree to raise a baby with Mark Sloan because it meant him being in her life forever, it gave him even more access to her private life, he would factor into her private life, and the definitely would have been "I'm Sofia's father, you're nothing" moments. According to "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" (I forget the episode number), Mark says she wakes up to him in her kitchen everyday. There was literally no escape and Sofia wiped all boundaries away. I can see how that can weigh down a relationship.

I guess I saw Callie and Mark's relationship differently. When it mattered, and Callie had to make a choice, she choose Arizona. She gave up everything and then got dumped. Then when she was pregnant, she was still being forced to change her life to make Arizona happy. For every "I'm Sofia's father, your nothing", there was "your just the sperm donor and you are nothing" response.

I guess I just don't see anything positive or honest about Callie and Arizona's relationship. Everything is bases on ultimatums, threats and betrayal.


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#1908

pointybird

pointybird

    Video Archivist

Posted Oct 2, 2013 @ 2:26 AM

I was just trying to be nice to the people who were staking out the moral high ground when, in fact, they were scraping the bottom of the barrel by being bigoted.

 

Being nice to people by accusing them of being bigots is an unusual concept.  Particularly when nobody is actually being bigoted.  Nobody is saying that Arizona is absolved of responsibility  because of her disability.  Nobody is saying that people with one leg should be subject to lower standards of morality than people with two legs.  Appealing for empathy in trying to understand how a life-changing traumatic event might have contributed to an infidelity within a relationship isn't staking out the moral high ground, nor does it constitute bigotry. 

 

 

 

This is a breakthrough!

Thank you.

 

 

 

Sometimes I felt they wrote the story as if Callie had a wife and a husband (without the sex).

I agree with you on this, and I think Arizona alluded to something along those lines immediately before the marriage proposal (albeit couched in somewhat derogatory terms of it being some sort of bisexual fantasy on Callie's part).

 

 

 

I don't consider Arizona a bad person.   I think she does love Callie and Sofia, and wants to be a family.

I agree with you in the main, but I don't think she really knows what she wants at the moment, other than some vague notion that she wants everything to be 'back to normal'.  Per her conversation with Karev, she seems to be in both denial and 'fix it' mode, rather than reflecting on what she's done, why she did it, and the consequences of her actions for her family.  I'm hoping for some  sort of catalyst in the next couple of episodes (no longer than that, please!) which will force Arizona to face up to what she's done.  I don't think she sees the magnitude of it yet as she's too busy trying to fix a broken bone with a band aid.

 

I love that Arizona is written as a character with a 'stiff upper lip' who doesn't share her feelings easily and who tries to get on with life without a load of self-indulgent navel gazing.  On this occasion, though, some uncomfortable self-reflection is going to be necessary for Arizona to fix things and I'm hopeful it'll result in some great drama.

 

On another note, it was nice to show both Cristina and Meredith as Arizona's friends as well as Callie's through the episode.  Since Teddy left (*sniff*) and Mark left (RIP) neither Callie nor Arizona have a 'best friend' on the show; and I really miss the banter they each had with their friends.  I want Teddy back!


Edited by pointybird, Oct 2, 2013 @ 4:09 AM.

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#1909

PoeticJustice32

PoeticJustice32

    Fanatic

Posted Oct 2, 2013 @ 12:21 PM

How did that wreck havoc on their relationship? Callie ultimately choose Arizona over everything, her job, her friends, and Mark. Her reward was to be dumped at the airport.

Key word "ultimately". Yes Callie chose Arizona but that doesn't mean there weren't major issues with Mark and the lack of boundaries they showed.
 

She gave up everything and then got dumped. Then when she was pregnant, she was still being forced to change her life to make Arizona happy.

Callie didn't give up anything that Arizona also didn't give up when they planned on going to Africa. And Callie spent every second kicking and screaming about it, to the point where she couldn't even let Arizona enjoy her accomplishment. At the end of the day Arizona spared Callie the obvious agony she was going to be in by dumping her at the airport so in essense Callie didnt really give up anything except the few weeks/months of having the subletters in her apt. As for the pregnancy, Callie gave up NOTHING! She got both Arizona and Mark to cater to her. They were making her meals, giving her foot rubs, the whole nine yards. Arizona and Mark were the ones who had to adjust to having the other in their lives more directly than just being connected through Callie...because now they would be sharing a child (and all the responsibilities that that comes with).
 

Sometimes I felt they wrote the story as if Callie had a wife and a husband

This reminds me of when they were planning the wedding and Mark said something to the effect like Arizona's father was now HIS father-in-law and Callie's dad had to remind him that he wasn't the one getting married. That is the sort of bullshit that although was played for shits and giggles (Mark himself was serious) shows what a nuisance Mark was in their relationship. I hated Mark with a passion because of his involvement.


Edited by PoeticJustice32, Oct 2, 2013 @ 5:29 PM.

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#1910

Simply Soaps

Simply Soaps

Posted Oct 2, 2013 @ 7:18 PM

 

Callie didn't give up anything that Arizona also didn't give up when they planned on going to Africa. And Callie spent every second kicking and screaming about it, to the point where she couldn't even let Arizona enjoy her accomplishment. At the end of the day Arizona spared Callie the obvious agony she was going to be in by dumping her at the airport so in essense Callie didnt really give up anything except the few weeks/months of having the subletters in her apt.

The difference.... Callie gave up everything for Arizona.

Arizona gave up her job for.....Arizona.

 

It wasn't Arizona's place to 'spare Callie'. Callie made the decision to go and Arizona should have had enough respect for Callie and their relationship to honor that.

 

As for the pregnancy, Callie gave up NOTHING! She got both Arizona and Mark to cater to her. They were making her meals, giving her foot rubs, the whole nine yards. Arizona and Mark were the ones who had to adjust to having the other in their lives more directly than just being connected through Callie...because now they would be sharing a child (and all the responsibilities that that comes with).

 

Again I disagree. Mark and Callie were having a child. That was decided before Callie and Arizona made a decision about their relationship. Arizona wanted to limit Mark's involvement.


Edited by Simply Soaps, Oct 2, 2013 @ 7:21 PM.

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#1911

pennben

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    Fanatic

Posted Nov 10, 2013 @ 11:38 PM

 

It wasn't Arizona's place to 'spare Callie'. Callie made the decision to go and Arizona should have had enough respect for Callie and their relationship to honor that.

 

Arguably, Arizona had enough respect for Callie and their relationship to keep Callie from doing something that would have completely doomed the relationship and made Callie terribly unhappy along the way, even more unhappy than she was when left behind.  She knew what she saw and knew it wouldn't work. She was sparing herself as well as Callie.  Of course, I'm speaking with hindsight here, but the way she dealt with it allowed them to come back together....for a time...full end on the relationship to be determined.


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#1912

Seneca

Seneca

    Channel Surfer

Posted Nov 11, 2013 @ 2:39 PM

The difference.... Callie gave up everything for Arizona.

Arizona gave up her job for.....Arizona.

 

My take on this was JCap was preggers and they had to write her off for a while so rather than C/A come to some boring agreement where Arizona does her thing in Africa for a while and Callie takes a sabbatical, or, Arizona does her thing for a while and Callie stays back in Seattle as absence makes her heart grow fonder, or (insert any of dozens of other options), the writers who are the ultimate masters of the Grey's storytelling domain decided that there would be a big airport blowout scene which created much drama and ensuing bad decisions and subsequent repercussions which created more drama because.... we don't tune in to watch happy sappy.

 

And they are right, at least I don't care to watch C/A cuddle on the couch for years to come.  Snoozefest.

 

I don't particularly care for nonstop earthshattering drama (car crashes, plane crashes, etc.) but its fakey fake and more entertaining than watching them pick out a new duvet cover at Bed Bath & Beyond.

 

There are clearly some viewers who would still blame Arizona even if she had forgone her opportunity in Africa from the get-go, stayed behind to be with Callie and ended up a little spiteful.  It would still be ARIZONA's fault for not leaving Callie behind or manning up or whatever.

 

I see lots of wasted opportunities, yet, I continue to go along for the ride.


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