1036 replies to this topic

[Elle34DD]

Scott McGillivray helps first-time homebuyers turn part of their home into a moneymaker to help with mortgage. In each episode, Scott presents the homeowners with options and they choose which part of the house to renovate into an apartment. We see the renovation and the amazing reveals.

I stumbled onto this show today on HGTV...

1st show was a Victorian house where they added a 1 bedroom basement apartment, created out of unused space. They went over the 20K budget by 25% due to massive electrical and heating issues. The woman was a weeper.

The 2nd one was more interesting. This woman bought a recent flip where it seems the basement apartment was all cosmetic and nothing was up to code. She spent 40K on her own to fix it and it wasn't habitable. This show comes in and they budget for another 43K to make it a 2 bedroom. I don't think they say what the final cost came in at; I'm sure they went over budget as they had to open and brick over windows.

[jade76]

I saw this today too. I felt bad for the woman who bought the house thinking it was in fine shape and it ended up needing major repairs. I wondered what kind of inspection she had when she bought the house, you would think even a little of that would have shown up then. They said 85% of her income was going toward the house.

[movable nu]

I saw this today too. I felt bad for the woman who bought the house thinking it was in fine shape and it ended up needing major repairs.

Ditto. I wondered if she'd have a court case against those fools. There was a fake heating duct leading upstairs! I've never bought property so I know nothing about house inspections. I wonder if she just opted out of the inspection to save money or if the inspector was in collusion with the seller.

With the first house, I assume they didn't go with the suggested 2-floor apartment option because of money?

[chitowngirl]

I wondered if she'd have a court case against those fools. There was a fake heating duct leading upstairs! I've never bought property so I know nothing about house inspections. I wonder if she just opted out of the inspection to save money or if the inspector was in collusion with the seller.

I was wondering if she hadn't had an inspection too because they surely would have found the fake heating duct! I wondered too if she would have a case against the former owner.

[Elle34DD]

I don't know that a normal home inspection would catch the heating vent to nowhere. In my experience, they don't find a lot of that stuff because it's hidden behind walls and ceilings. She should try to see what recourse she has against the former owners considering there was an unresolved stop work order against them. It's obvious that they knew they weren't doing a top notch job.

[mindy]

With the first house, I assume they didn't go with the suggested 2-floor apartment option because of money?

I missed why the first couple chose the 1 BR apartment too. Although Option 2 seemed to be creating more of a two family house -- tenant entrance on the main floor while they would have to go up a set of stairs and live on the 2nd/3rd floor. While that might have been better financially for this particular couple, I wonder whether it might not be appealing to subsequent buyers.

The unholy mess in the second woman's basement made me wonder about the quality of the upstairs renovations too. Since it was a flip, I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being her next problem.

I suspect she didn't get a home inspection until she was starting work on the basement. But given how sad and desperate she was about the whole thing, I felt bad judging her for something like that at this point. She got so emotional when saying that her parents would give her the money, obviously she felt horribly guilty for needing it (presumably, due to her own mistakes).

One of the little blurbs on the screen said this was going to be on the regular schedule - Wed. at 9:30 or something like that. I don't know many more times I can watch a basement apartment renovation before getting bored, but it wasn't a bad way to spend 30 minutes. Love the Canadian accents too.

[Anna2]

The young couple chose not to go for the two-floor renovation because there was no way they could pull the money from their budget.

[RedWeatherTiger]

I watched two episodes of this show, and it should be re-titled, "Lousy Expert Makes Homeowners Cry When He Consistently Underestimates Renovation Costs by 25%."

Ooh, that guy made me so angry.

Honestly, why wouldn't he factor in the possible repairs to wiring and plumbing as part of the first estimate and allow people to finance it up front? And then, if they have extra money, well, then that's good news! In both cases, this guy saw disaster on the outside and what? Assumed everything underneath was perfectly fine? That place with the sewer backing up into the room? Come on! He couldn't figure out maybe the wiring was bad too? This guy seems like a total hack. I think if these people come on the show and he gives the estimate, then he should be prepared to do the work for the price he quotes. Maybe he'd be more careful if he were held accountable.

[Teague]

I liked these episodes, and I'll keep watching for now.

I shared the same reaction you did, though, RedWeatherTiger, in being annoyed at the guy. I think it has more to do with forced drama than recklessness, though, and I warmed to him a little in the second episode when he seemed genuinely concerned with the woman and her screw-job house. The bit in the Victorian episode about wiring needing replaced, though--that irked me. I mean come on, it's a century-old Vic--it's going to need rewiring. It may have been worse than he thought, but still...it's not a matter of if it will need work, but how much.

In that same show, I also thought the idea of turning the house into what amounts to a vertical duplex was stupid. Especially for a historic home like that. I've seen tons of old homes that have had to be gutted and redone to restore them to single-family status after someone's pieced them out like that, and you never get back the original charm that homes like that are supposed to be about. In short, I'm glad they didn't have the cash to pull out to do it, because it seemed like a huge mistake, both for the home itself and its resale value.

[queasy]

I don't know if every reno is going to be a basement, but I thought he did a nice job on these two. I wonder if the HO gets to keep the furniture as a gift from the show.

The host guy reminded me a little of Mike Holmes, what with coming in and having to re-do someone else's shoddy/illegal work. It was odd to me that one makeover was $20K and the other was $50K for what looked to be about the same amount of work -- both were taken down to the studs.

[Mita_Jo]

I paused my TV on the second episode while I drove to pick up some takeout and when I got back, it had un paused itself, so I missed the reveal. I thought that her renovation was more than the first couple because she had a lot more damage and she was going to a two bedroom. The first couple ended up paying about the same anyway, what with all the problems that eventually showed up during the remodel. Did she end up renting the apartment for what he suggested?

They also didn't pick the second option because they somehow thought they would lose the use of the backyard. I didn't see how or why, but I guess if the basement and first floor were one apartment, they wouldn't have felt right using the backyard, even though they owned the house. I wondered why they didn't charge $1000 for rent after all. They really could have if they got to keep the furnishings and left it in the space. They could have charges more really.

I thought that people that go on these shows at least got some work done for free. I guess not. Really, there's no incentive to go on the show unless they just want the free decorating after the renovation is done. The work is being done correctly sure, but I'm sure they could find a reputable contractor on their own without being on TV.

The host guy reminded me a little of Mike Holmes, what with coming in and having to re-do someone else's shoddy/illegal work.

It is a bit like Holmes on Homes, but the few episodes that I've seen of that show, they never discuss a budget, so I thought Mike Holmes was doing it for free. I'm so jaded from years of watching these home remodel shows.

[Elle34DD]

The work is being done correctly sure, but I'm sure they could find a reputable contractor on their own without being on TV.

If only.... The second homeowner spent 40K and wound up with a torn up basement. If you've ever seen Holmes on Homes, you'll see many examples of people who thought they had a good contractor yet wind up in bad situations.

I wonder how many of the homes that we see on Flip This/That House and Property Ladder would fail like the second home did.

[Teague]

I've wondered if the Holmes on Homes families had to pay, too. If not, then wow--that's one big gift for being on TV. But they never do mention the money, so...

I have the same question about this show--what exactly are they getting for free? The design of the result, for sure, and maybe the furniture and accessories? If so, that's actually pretty major.

I put this show on my TiVo Season Pass today; I hope it stays good.

[Bentley]

I'm perplexed by the lady who bought the flip. If you buy a 4-bedroom house and need to rent 3 of them out to make ends meet, I submit that you can't afford to buy a house at all.

[anaximander]

I'm perplexed by the lady who bought the flip. If you buy a 4-bedroom house and need to rent 3 of them out to make ends meet, I submit that you can't afford to buy a house at all.

Not uncommon in Toronto at ALL. I know people who do that regularly, especially in the Annex & by York & Ryerson, in order to make ends meet while still "owning" property in Toronto (The idea is usually that as they pay off greater portions of their mortgage / get promoted, they can then afford to have fewer and fewer roommates). One friend is the main leaseholder in a 4 bdrm house that has 5 tenants (Hooray for converted living rooms.) It keeps property downtown affordable on some level as living space ($2500 / mo divided by 4/5/6 is a lot more accessible to people, as well as not having to have everything related to a house purchased by one person).

I have the same question about this show--what exactly are they getting for free? The design of the result, for sure, and maybe the furniture and accessories? If so, that's actually pretty major.

I'm willing to bet it's the same deal as Holmes on Holmes - that the materials are paid for by the homeowner and the Labour's free. As well, the "accessories" are probably rentals or are furnished as models by sponsors (Toronto has some GREAT prop rental houses) with an option for purchase by the homeowners. (This is how they do it on Divine Design and Peter Fallico's various shows)

[Teague]

I'm willing to bet it's the same deal as Holmes on Holmes - that the materials are paid for by the homeowner and the Labour's free. As well, the "accessories" are probably rentals or are furnished as models by sponsors (Toronto has some GREAT prop rental houses) with an option for purchase by the homeowners. (This is how they do it on Divine Design and Peter Fallico's various shows)

Interesting! I didn't know that's how HoH worked, nor did I know (and I'm a little shocked!) at the fact that the accesssories in Divine Design aren't included. I find that sort of odd. It's like: here's your new room! (And to keep it, here's the bill for all the extras...)

Anyway, in terms of Income Property, here's what it says on their website for potential renovators--it pretty much explains how it works...and it doesn't seem like a great deal to me, compared to other shows. Granted, getting fast and quality work done isn't a small thing at all, it's still less than I'd expect a show like this to provide.

HGTV’s new show Income Property is looking for first-time homeowners that would like to renovate an income suite to help pay the mortgage.

If you fit the bill, Income Property may be able to fast—track your project from beginning to end by:
- Building and designing a legal income suite that fulfils Ontario’s building code requirements.
- Providing an experienced construction team
- Hiring and supervising contractors when necessary
- Organizing the reno to take place over 2 weeks
- Taking care of dealings with the city (inspector, plans, permits)
- Offering substantial discounts on materials where possible
- Estimated value $12-15,000.00

Candidates will:
- Pay for the contractor, trades and materials
- Be between the ages of 21 and 45
- Be first-time homeowners
- Live in the Greater Toronto Area (Toronto, Ontario, Canada)
- Be available to physically help out with the renovation over a period of 2 weeks
- Be easy-going, willing to appear on camera and willing to talk about your design needs and money challenges!

Edited by Teague, Jan 7, 2009 @ 8:09 PM.

[CruiseDiva]

On the show tonight the host told the homeowners to take photos of the apartment as it looked while "staged" so they could attract renters with their newspaper ad.

So ... the furniture obviously doesn't stay.

[queasy]

On the show tonight the host told the homeowners to take photos of the apartment as it looked while "staged" so they could attract renters with their newspaper ad.

I caught that, too! Mostly I was shocked that such a dilapidated old house would sell for $360K. I know Toronto's expensive, but yikes. I don't see how even a cursory building inspection could have missed all that rot and mold in the basement, so these HOs must have bought in a hurry. And hadn't even bothered to find out if the apt. had legal permits. Bad realtor, too, whoever that was.

We kind of knew they weren't going to pick the $3500 option because that would have been the worst reveal ever: "And here are your new baseboards!"

I think if I was renting I would have preferred a studio setup instead of a "bedroom" that looked to be about 8' x 9'. Couldn't even fit a double bed and it still went for $1000/month. Admittedly I don't live in an area with a high cost of living and haven't rented in a while, but my mortgage is only $583! I can't fathom paying that much rent.

Thanks for the info about what the show provides. I think it would be more than worthwhile to have someone else manage the project and especially to know it was being done correctly and would be finished in about two weeks. That's major.

Edited by queasy, Jan 8, 2009 @ 6:05 AM.

[Suz at Large]

Wowzer, thanks for the info on how Divine Design works that. I had no clue, really thought that the HOs were just footing the bill with maybe some labor costs absorbed by the show. But Candace pulls off such gorgeous rooms that if it were my house I'd probably risk financial ruin in order to OWN all of the stuff. :-)

I still haven't seen a whole episode of this show, but it is an interesting concept. I think that basements are probably going to be a great deal in evidence because that's the logical place to put a separate apartment in a house, and of course if you can have entirely separate entrances it gives both the owners and the renters more privacy from each other's daily lives.

I can tell I'm back into my winter TV addiction mode, but at least I'm checking out shows here at TWOP, especially new series.

[robroy]

I think a couple of things are a benefits such as the free design, advice, work with the city (permts,etc.) But in my experience the item that would convince me to do this on its own was them picking and supervising contractors and trades. It is so hard to come up with a good contractor (and associated subs) willing to work on small projects. And to get them to do so in a timely manner is all but impossible since the small jobs always come in as borderline sidework to their main projects. And I'm sure no one is going to F*** up work that is on national tv or for a client that would bring in multiple jobs a year.

And I agree with whoever didn't understand how they though exterior and moisture problems would be a quick fix and not possibly be related to a money pit of a problem. Though from what the male HO said- I don't think they've bothered to look at the basement since they moved in and seemed to have no curiosity in regard to the mildew smell.

[Teague]

The episode last night was interesting to watch with new eyes; now that we know that they don't get to keep the furnishings, it's a little less cool. Granted, most renters will want to bring their own stuff, but still. I understand how big a thing it is to have work done quickly and well, but still...since most shows give their "contestants" something, it still seems chintzy to me.

I agree with queasy that the bedroom was mega-tiny. A twin bed stuffed into a room the size of a smallish master closet? Inviting! Maybe I don't understand the Vancouver rental market, because...wow. Here in Denver, I'd expect a heck of a lot more for a grand a month, and I don't consider the Denver housing market on the cheap side. Not as expensive as some places, but still...

And I still can't get over the way that couple seemed surprised (or was that embarassment?) that the curb appeal of their place made a difference. That place was in a scary-mess--the host was right...prospective tenants would just drive on by. I would. (Even after the sod and weeding, that front porch looked like it's down to its last splinters.)

I was surprised last night how affordable this project was, compared to the other to-the-stud renos from last week. Is it just square footage?

[anaximander]

One of the things that I really, REALLY wish they'd come out and explain is that the Canadian housing market, especially with regards to prices, is very, very, very expensive - most houses in downtown Toronto are a half mil minimum, and you've got to move wayyyyyyyy out to the suburbs to crack 250k. (The one exception is just north of St Clair and west of weston, which is in some bizarre housing black hole) - and a lot of toronto houses are NOT HUGE, and are much older. Also, especially close to downtown, rents for even single bedroom units are at least a grand. However, I like that the show deals with the vagaries of knob & tube wiring, and I love, love, LOVE the fact that they're showing how to make a *legal* rental unit (unknown thousands aren't.)

Oh: Another thing these shows love to do is furnish the entire place with ikea.

And then return it all. (And Ikea doesn't care at all that they do this. Bizarre.)

[robroy]

Anax- I am assuming that either the show owns a lot of furniture/housewares as props or they are using a rental or staging service. I know a stager in my area love the Pottery Barn basic look and the Marshalls for accessories and the like. So I wouldn't see one in a larger area having any quarms with Ikea.

[Mama Tiger]

The only episode I've seen was the one with the couple whose house was such a wreck and whose front yard looked like the property was abandoned, and created that nice but small basement apartment. All I could think of was how it would feel to live underneath a house that was being renovated over my head. That poor renter probably never has a moment's peace!

Once again, the estimate was waaay lower than it actually cost to do the work. But the nice Canadian accents are fun nevertheless.

[anaximander]

Robroy - there are actually film-based prophouses that do stagings for these kinds of things *regularly* - there's also a store ... I think it's somewhere on Queen East but don't quote me... that specifically does prop rentals with purchase options. There are few shows that actually *own* their props, and most of them are dramas with specific sets. (Degrassi, for example, tends to own the school stuff rather than renting over and over)

Fans of this show, especially ones who are Toronto based and *do* rent, or those from well out of town, would do well to check out the laws in the Ontario Landlord Tenant Board site. What's interesting is that once you do decide to create a legal separate unit in Ontario, you are really setting yourself into it. (The requirement for a separate unit being that it has a separate kitchen and bathroom from the main landlord, owner, or leasee). In ontario, for example, you can't refuse to allow pets, you can't discriminate based on pretty well anything (even income), and the eviction process is long (and until recently, you couldn't evict anyone at all between October and May). That's why so many of those in Toronto aren't technically, legally, separate units, but instead "roomer" situations (the landlord tenant board doesn't apply if it's roomer). You also can't simply kick someone out if you don't get along with them, or they make too much noise.

I hope they have someone on the show sitting down and advising all these people on all the vagaries of being a Landlord in Ontario.

[Suz at Large]

Yay!! Last night I finally upgraded my cable to HDTV with DVR. By the time I got the new box home and hooked up it was getting late. But I just *had* to find a show to set for recording before I staggered off to bed. I saw the [repeated] first episode of this show on the program guide - the 1:30 a.m. showing - and chose it.

It's the episode with the young couple who bought the 3 story + basement Victorian and remodeled the basement into a 1 BR apartment. Watched it just now with my morning coffee. I so agree with the comments upthread about the show host/contractor's failure to build a contingency in to his $20,000 remodeling estimate. He's supposed to be in the business of creating legal rental units in older buildings/homes in that town and doesn't build into his pricing any room for potential wiring, plumbing or similar problems in a Victorian house? As noted in the discussion, maybe the show was edited to provide some drama, but given the couple's obvious stress when told they needed to pay another $2000, I sure believed they hadn't been counseled to budget a contingency/overrun amount.

As to why the HOs rejected the option to turn the basement and first floors into a rental and live in the top two floors, I also got both their concern over the additional cost and their desire to retain access to their back yard. In the opening scenes, they told the contractor/host that when they bought the house, it consisted of a separate living unit on each floor, and they have been busy remodeling to turn floors 1 - 3 back into a single family home. So it seemed natural to me that they would be totally taken aback by his suggestion to turn the place into essentially a vertical duplex. Living on the top two floors was just so not on their radar and so totally different from their whole concept of what that house was about.

This contractor/host is young and cute and articulate, but I'm suspending judgment for now on whether he's just a smooth talking BS-er. On this show he confidently told the HOs their chosen remodel would cost $20K and didn't warn them to budget for contingencies, although of course he said later on that you never know what you might find when you start remodeling a house as old as that one. Of course, that was after the demo had disclosed the scary wiring.

And his financial analysis for the project was based on a rental of $X per month, flatly stated, no allowances for a lesser amount. Just easy-peasy, it's $X and you get your remodeling money back in two years. But they rented for significantly less than that, and the show didn't explain why. That was a jolt.

Thanks for the info about the Toronto rental situation, anaximander . I intend to watch future episodes of this show and it will be more interesting with the background you've provided.

ETA: I did wonder about why the homeowners could have done enough remodeling upstairs in that house to turn 3 separate living units back into a single family home, without having an electrical inspection or having brought in a professional electrician. Or if they did, how could an inspector or an electrician have missed the bad state of that wiring? Sure, they wouldn't have seen the stuff revealed when the basement ceiling was demo'd, but surely the upstairs wiring would have suggested there were problems? It's hard to know with the limited info provided by this episode. But the host did say that the "whole house" had been rewired, not just the basement, after the problems were discovered. It does appear that this remodeling project may have averted a house fire and in that sense the remodel was money well spent.

Edited by Suz at Large, Jan 21, 2009 @ 9:01 AM.

[csichick]

I wondered if she'd have a court case against those fools. There was a fake heating duct leading upstairs! I've never bought property so I know nothing about house inspections. I wonder if she just opted out of the inspection to save money or if the inspector was in collusion with the seller.

I don't know about Canada, but can't imagine the laws concerning fraud are much different than in the US. What the seller did was fraud, plain and simple, and could be prosecuted in criminal court. The buyer has a very good case to sue for damages. In the US, standard listing and selling documents state clearly that all flaws etc. must be disclosed. In addition, if a real estate licensee knowingly sells something without disclosing problems, they can lose their real estate license.

[killershrew]

We watched the episode last week -- the one where the guy had all the mold and stuff in his basement -- and were sufficiently interested to watch again last night. However, we became so annoyed that we had to change the channel. Last night's episode involved a family of four who were outgrowing their house. So they turned the unfinished basement into an "income suite".

How exactly did this help their space problem? Wouldn't it have made more sense to turn the unfinished basement into, say, a playroom or an office so that they would add more usable space to their house?

It's possible that at the end of the show this is what they decided to do after all, but I'm not optimistic. I thought the renovator host guy was way off base in steering them down the income suite path instead of encouraging them to just finish the space and use it themselves.

[jcsc]

This contractor/host is young and cute and articulate, but I'm suspending judgment for now on whether he's just a smooth talking BS-er.

Pick the latter...definitely, pick the latter...

How exactly did this help their space problem? Wouldn't it have made more sense to turn the unfinished basement into, say, a playroom or an office so that they would add more usable space to their house?

Agreed - they totally applied for the wrong show, in my opinion.

Edited by jcsc, Jan 22, 2009 @ 11:09 AM.

[Suz at Large]

How exactly did this help their space problem? Wouldn't it have made more sense to turn the unfinished basement into, say, a playroom or an office so that they would add more usable space to their house?

Good question. I am thinking that maybe adding a legal rental unit would increase the market value of the house more than simply finishing the basement to add living space to the home. But it would have been very helpful if the show had presented that analysis, which it didn't. Just an appraisal at the end after the rental unit was done.

Although they were proceeding cautiously, I felt that the HOs were really wanting to sell and move in the near future. I believe their goals as stated early in the episode were to maximize their equity in the home and if they were going to stay there for awhile, build up their savings toward a down payment on their next house. That's why I figure that the numbers favored creating a rental unit over just adding finished square footage in the basement.

I liked that couple, even if they were pretty reasonable and financially responsible, unlike the crazy peeps we all love to hate on these shows. Such as the ones on Buy Me who have already committed themselves to a new mortgage on a new house while doing nothing to help - and all they can to sabotage - the sale of their current house.