72 replies to this topic

[TWoP Roxy]

From zap2it.com:

When the baby of a prominent family is kidnapped, Sam discovers that his father, Vic Tyler (Dean Winters), might be involved; Sam uncovers some deep dark secrets about his childhood.

[Last Time Lord]

I'm still digesting this episode, but I think I loved it. The ending blew me away.

[Fabrisse]

Someone in the Fringe forum said they thought that show had finally found itself this week. That's exactly how I feel about tonight. When Bowie came on, the hair stood up on the back of my neck.

Dean Winters was great. Jason O'Mara and Gretchen Mol are really settling into their roles. There were some beautiful moments.

ITA about the ending.

Edited by Fabrisse, Nov 20, 2008 @ 11:04 PM.

[Eegah]

Glad they didn't feel the need to shoehorn a scene between Winters and Teregeson. Really, those kind of in-jokes just bug me when there's no other point to them.

[AimingforYoko]

Aw, no interplay between Beecher and O'Reilly. I'm still not sure what to think of that ending. Looks like I'll have a while to digest it.

[chilivariety]

Did anyone else think that the ending was a rip-off of an old Lost episode - the one where Locke goes up to the cabin alone and hears a dead person''s voice?

The music at the end sounded like it came from a Lost episode.

[FryingPan]

The ending kinda reminded me of Twin Peaks actually.. but yes very LOST too.

[pacejunkie]

This was phenomenal. I can't believe his father shot him like that, I thought he was just going to get away. And I was wondering where Sam was going to wake up after that happened and what year it would be. I guess a near death experience isn't enough to send you back to the future. Nice fakeout with the red dress. Is it significant that he changed Annie's course by saving her life? And that ending. Weird. Not a coma if there really is some big conspiracy and the clues are there, unless he's imagining all that too.

I suppose one possibility could be that Sam never really left his hospital bed and none of what happened after was real. I was amazed with a gunshot wound he could just get up and walk out after that. But maybe he didn't. I feel like Sam, I don't know what's real anymore. Fun. I'm going to miss this show over the hiatus.

[Tricksterson]

One thing deeply annoyed me beyond all proportion and that's,Where was the frakkin' tatoo? You know, the one his father had on his hand? Showing my age but the end scene reminded me of the final episode of The Prisoner because it was so totally disconnected and semi psychedelic.

Okay, those two guys in the background when Sam's father shot him, were they real or not? I couldn't figure that out either.

[pacejunkie]

Okay, those two guys in the background when Sam's father shot him, were they real or not? I couldn't figure that out either.

They were real. They were Vic's partners in crime. They helped him with the shooting.

[FryingPan]

Do we know that they were Vic's partners? Did we see faces? My Time Warner cable was all screwed up so the picture froze during that scene making it even more incomprehensible than it already was. If we didn't see faces, I'm betting we come back to it.

As for the shooting, I was shocked too, I thought that it might be a set up for Vic to show the guys he worked for that he was a player or something (you know, Sam wearing a vest, capsules of fake blood, making it look real). But wow, having him shot by his own father was pretty severe. and then the mock high fiving.. he is one bad guy. :(

On a brighter note, I liked the growing romance with Annie. I'm not sure how I feel about it because he's technically in love with the Lisa Bonet character isn't he?

[Sedruol]

It's great to see this show hitting its stride. The use of music (as usual) was phenomenal. And I totally love the actress that plays Sam's mom. She's no nonsense and has a great cameraderie with Adult Sam.

I was shocked that they let Sam's father get away ...what a sleazy guy. I must admit I was fooled by his line of bull initially ...but I never would have believed he was this devious criminal mastermind.

I don't know how I'm going to last til Jan 28 - but I'm glad the show is coming back.

[Toy Purple Belt]

This is intolerable! [/Henry Jones] There's a super cliff-hanger, and we get no new episodes for the next two months... yes I would like some cheese, thank you.

That story about the rats was kind of disturbing. How Vic described them chewing through the metal ice box after the week of starvation, there was something cruel or sinister in his voice there. Probably to hint at the double fake-out.

It was good that Sam saved Annie's life, because she wouldn't have been there in the first place if he hadn't begged her to be.

So, the money: Uncle Butchie held onto the case while Vic blasted away?

The shooting in the woods was strange -- it looked like Sam's shirt burned, but the lack of blood made me wonder if 1973 Sam doesn't have blood in his veins. Maybe it was-- I don't know. I expect nothing until Jan 28.

Edited for inflection.

Edited by Toy Purple Belt, Nov 20, 2008 @ 11:42 PM.

[Walden1]

So, the money: Uncle Butchie held onto the case while Vic blasted away?

Yes. And then Uncle Butchie blasted Vic to make it look good.

[Toy Purple Belt]

Yes. And then Uncle Butchie blasted Vic to make it look good.

And how good it looked -- strategically, I mean.

[HermioneG]

That story about the rats was kind of disturbing. How Vic described them chewing through the metal ice box after the week of starvation, there was something cruel or sinister in his voice there. Probably to hint at the double fake-out.

Oh yeah, I heard that and thought, "Serial killer much?"

[CalAggie]

It really helps not having seen the original, that way I do not have anything to compare to. I really loved this episode. I was wondering how they were going to tie in the other episode with Clams being his real father figure, and Vic coming off as not that bad, it seemed to refute that whole episode. But this continued with that message and showed how un-fatherly Vic was. It was good that they did not go the happy route and actually went the darker route, not only did his father abandon him but he was real scum, a baby kidnapper, multiple murder, and head of crime syndicate, while letting his wife and son live in near poverty.

Though that ending was really freakie. That was the doctor from the soap opera, right?

I really love the use of music.

Though God from the other episode, or that stranger voice from tonight still does not mean he is not in a coma and dreaming it all. Memories could have resurfaced and his guilt made him right things by saving Annie which he could not do as a 4 year old. But then it still could be other reasons too. I am liking the ambiguity. I think it works better than the UK in a coma reason.

I liked the chemistry with Annie and Sam tonight.

How many episodes has it been since we have seen Windy?

I did not think about it but the ending was LOST- and TWIN PEAKish.

Gosh, I am going to miss the show these two months plus -- I think it might be a good call to put it with LOST, it might help the show's ratings and it fits with LOST's type story telling.

Edited by TWoP Roxy, Nov 21, 2008 @ 12:13 PM.
weird sentence spacing

[cheepmunk]

The ending was chilling. I was convinced that Vic somehow knew at the end that Sam was his son, and he shot him anyway.

I hope I don't dream of maniacal rats tonight. Damn.

[Dea]

So I hope I didn't frighten the neighbors when I screamed "WHAT?!?!" at the end when the next-episode-on-January 28 thing was announced. How the hell am I going to wait that long? I watched this after Supernatural which is also going into hiatus, and I thought that was annoying enough, but this is just cruel!

I did kind of suspect that Vic was not the shmoe he claimed to be, though I didn't expect him to become Kaiser Soze at the end either. When I saw where he was shot I thought that seemed like a likely spot for someone to shoot himself to make a crime scene look right. Also, we never heard anyone else on the wire - just Vic. Still, when Sam looked up at him in the woods and said "Dad?" with that tortured face, after Vic had already shot him once, and then VIC SHOT HIM AGAIN? Damn, that was cold.

And all of that was nothing next to the end sequence with Sam leaving the hospital and traveling to the scary cabin in the woods. That HAS to be a dream sequence. Sam was shot in the gut - I would think that would be debilitating enough. And then managing to figure out the street address from the random bits of info on the case files? Felt like something I would do in one of my dreams, only to wake up and think "that makes no sense". Never mind the chess game laid out on the table - metaphor much? I do think that Homeless Guy God is probably talking to Sam on the phone in his dream, but I'm sure he's still in the hospital. AAARGH - I can't believe I have to wait for TWO MONTHS to learn if I'm right on any of that!

[Shalala]

Well, that was fantastic this episode gave me some closer into why Sam is in 1973. I think we'll get some very interesting episodes when it returns.

Now, Sam and Vic yes I like there father/son bonding but his father was such a bad person and I didn't like that Vic shot his own son. Other then that I thought Sam did the right thing by saving Annie and trying to protect his mother.

Over all, this episode had concluded half of the mystery about Sam's parents and now I have enough backstory on Sam to know his life back when he was 3/4 years old.

[goodnight]

If ABC wants this show to survive, taking it away for two months just when people are getting into it is a big mistake. I anticipate a number of viewers losing interest by January. I like this show, but I don't love it. Not sure what would make it must-see for me.

[Tricksterson]

Well, this episode made it must see for me, goodnight. I love when a show throws me for a loop, because that's not easy to do. I figured from the beginning Vic was a bad guy but I figured he was working for the Whatstheirname brothers (in fact that's who I figured the two guys in the woods were) not that they were an invention of Vics. Kaiser Soze indeed, nice comparison.

To whoever asked, yes, we did get a clear look at Vic's partners/henchmen. One was kind of beefy, the other ratfaced.

It was good that Sam saved Annie's lifebecause she wouldn't have been there in the first place if he hadn't begged her to be.

Then what was she doing there the first time when Young Sam saw her beaten to death? This is why time travel stories give me migraines.

That was the doctor from the soap opera right?

I thought it was the hostage doctor. Whichever, I know we saw him in the last episode.

[MariaMax]

What did the voice on the phone say at the end? I rewound it about 5 times and STILL couldn't understand it.

Then what was she doing there the first time when Young Sam saw her beaten to death? This is why time travel stories give me migraines.

I usually see in time-travel themes, the idea that what will happen, will happen somehow-- the cops in both 1973s would have been following Vic re: the kidnapping. Annie was there both times. Vic still killed/tried to kill the cop, but it was Sam instead of No-Nuts (hee, I love that). I will be curious to see if Little Sam saw or not.

You can't try to make the ends meet with these things, though. It'll drive you crazy.

[jcin617]

I will be curious to see if Little Sam saw or not.

What I want to know is how did this change history? Already we know he altered it in so much that Annie survived. He also told his younger self to go back to his mother when little Sam was looking for his dad. Presumably in the original time line, with adult Sam not there, little Sam went into the woods looking for his dad and saw what he saw.

cops in both 1973s would have been following Vic re: the kidnapping. Annie was there both times.

I wish we knew how events played out originally. Sam was key in getting Vic to "confess" to his role and wearing the wire. Maybe in the original timeline the police "interrogated" that information out of him. I'm not sure why in the original sequence of events, though, Annie would be the one watching the party. You'd think it would have been one of the other detectives if they were tailing Vic.

What did the voice on the phone say at the end?

Something along the lines of, "You're doing a good job so far Sam. I need you to go down into the basement. Go down into the basement, Sam."

Edited by jcin617, Nov 21, 2008 @ 12:49 PM.

[heat]

I'm am fully hooked on this show-especially after such an amazing episode last night. I am bummed to hear that there won't be new episodes until the end of January, though pairing the show with LOST is a smart move. I realized part of the reason why I enjoy the show so much-no spoilers! I haven't seen the UK version, and though I am a spoiler whore(WWK, Ausiello) I haven't noticed much talk about this show, so it always surprises me.

What the hell is in the basement?

After the ABC bloodbath yesterday, I'm almost afraid that I am loving this show, and worried that they only have a 17 episode order, but I will try to be optimistic.

Loved the use of "Everything I Own"-one of my favourite songs.

[FryingPan]

Just catching up on reading comments... a couple posters above have indicated that Sam saw a woman beaten to death when he was 4... is that what you meant/were told in the episode. My Time Warner kept fritzing out.. I thought cable was supposed alleviate that problem GRRR. Anyway, I appreciate any fill in on that...

Also wanted to add, I kept thinking... are 2008 Sam's memories changing.. i.e. does he suddenly remember being told to 'go back to the party' by a mysterious man or is this one of those things that it's best not to think about?

This show creeps me out to no end with it's good mix of 70s cop show grittiness, sci fi time travel, Twin Peaks/LOST twists (that lodge at the end was straight out of David Lynch) and character development. I also really like how Annie sorta kinda believes him and is willing to go along with it because.. well, I'm not entirely sure why she does although I thought it was a nice arc wrap up for her to point out that all the things he's done since he arrived there are the 'reasons' he's there, not to sort out his family stuff. I hope the show goes in that kind of 'larger than yourself' direction.

[idneedabook]

Here's my speculation. When the caller at the end said that Sam was doing well, but that he had to go into the basement now, it made me think about how Sam had just retrieved a repressed memory about his father, and that maybe "going into the basement" means that Sam has to go deeper into his own subconscious memories, like psychoanalysis might tell you to go deeper - like a basement is deeper?

It occurs to me that so far, Sam has explored memories and feelings about his mother (maybe working out whatever memories he had from childhood about why his mother was dressed up and crying that night), about religion and why he stopped believing in God, his feelings about his mentor/father figure, and now repressed memories about his father. So maybe he's been psychoanalyzing himself this whole time.

Ooh - wait, I've got more. Maybe he's also been working through feelings about Maya - perhaps he's conflicted about their relationship (we already know he wasn't ready to meet her parents), and maybe the black girl who fell off the roof chasing a butterfly was meant to represent Maya (didn't he describe her as a free spirit), and signals a wish for the "death" of the relationship (which we also got at the end of last week's episode.

So maybe Sam's undergoing some kind of futuristic hypnosis or induced dream therapy, and that was his psychologist on the "phone."

[Dea]

Then what was she doing there the first time when Young Sam saw her beaten to death? This is why time travel stories give me migraines.

This is where being a Farscape fan comes in handy. From season 4's Unrealized Realities episode: "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." Of course it is in that episode that we learn that traveling back in time can have catastrophic effects on the future, so Sam reallly needs to be careful when interacting with himself and his family!

[Schonwynn]

Wow, idneedabook, I think that's quite a brilliantly reasoned set of theories.

To go along with your analysis of the idea of 'going into the basement' a venturing deeper into the subconscious, we might extrapolate that the dark and creepy night, the frightening and isolated setting of the house, and even the horror-movie-voice-effect of the caller could indicate several things:

(a) The visual/physical embodiment of Sam's own fear of what he is discovering (and of what more he might discover) and fear associated with the process of digging through his repressed memories.

(b) A foreshadowing of the kind of memories that would be associated with digging deeper. If they are contained 'in the basement' of an already unsettling house, how bad must they be compared with this last discovery? It's some quite significant imagery, I'd say, if it is describing Sam's deeper subconscious.

Edit: I like the idea of the girl being associated with Maya. I think perhaps rather than showing Sam wishing for the death of the relationship, though, her story might have served as a warning or signpost for Sam, foreshadowing the death of the relationship. As you say, she was said to be a 'free spirit', so her following the butterfly and 'flying' away herself signifies Maya's transition out of Sam's life, and her own flying free.

Edited by Schonwynn, Nov 21, 2008 @ 4:18 PM.

[Tricksterson]

What's in the basement? I'm betting nothing good.