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4-7: "It's The Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester" 2008.10.30 (recap)


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#541

Nicolethecylon

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Posted Feb 20, 2009 @ 4:49 PM

Uriel basically says "screw our orders", he proposed that instead they drag Dean Winchester out of here - and then blow up the town presumably. Sounds like whatever they want from him, it is tied to HIS own person and nobody else. Otherwise they should have said "we drag the Winchesters out of here".


Actually, I was noticing this, too. I looked back, and Castiel and Uriel hardly ever even mention Sam. Its always about Dean. I got the definite feeling they would just drag Dean out, and leave Sam there.

Sam is just so hopeful and excited with his little-boy face, and Castiel is just so...Castiel. The way he folds his left hand over Sam's while clasping it with his right seems like an endorsement of sorts. I realize I'm probably reading way too much into this tiny scene, but to me it conveyed almost a tone of forgiveness/acceptance for Sam


I read or heard somewhere that if you shake someone's hand and then turn their hand over to be under yours, then you are signifying your own seniority- that you are above them, more powerful, etc.

With that in mind, I love this scene as well. Sam is so eager and then Castiel shakes his hand in this way, showing Sam whose in charge.

Edited by Nicolethecylon, Feb 20, 2009 @ 4:53 PM.


#542

shang yiet

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Posted Feb 20, 2009 @ 5:06 PM

Bad angels!! Oh yes, Sam's definitely the underdog here.

Still, I loved all the Sam/angels scenes. I had another take on the Castiel double handclasp - it seemed he was trying to get a feel of Sam's aura, like he was trying to figure Sam out.

#543

Area Woman

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Posted Feb 20, 2009 @ 10:23 PM

I read or heard somewhere that if you shake someone's hand and then turn their hand over to be under yours, then you are signifying your own seniority- that you are above them, more powerful, etc.

Because I am a dork, I googled handshakes and found this on eHow.com under Handshake Tips & Warnings:

"A two-handed handshake is not for first meetings. It is a sign of real affection, and you should reserve it for friends and intimates."

But then SelfGrowth.com says this:

"Using the two-handed grip may also be a good idea when you honestly want to communicate sincerity and warmth. However, it may also communicate insincerity, too much intimacy, and an attempt at intimidation. Use it sparingly and appropriately."

I'm so confused!

In all seriousness I actually think there were quite a few different gestures/meanings encompassed in that short interaction, all of which have been mentioned here already. I just like the idea of Castiel being intrigued by humans and their social customs as well as secretly being fond of them. I fully believe Castiel is prepared to turn Sam into a pile of dust without a moment's hesitation if he does something naughty, but I also think he would have been ready and willing to accept and even like Sam (such as he's able, being an angel with no emotions) if only Sam had been able to lay off the Hand of Ipecrack.

Edited by Area Woman, Feb 20, 2009 @ 10:24 PM.


#544

Jonie

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Posted Feb 20, 2009 @ 10:35 PM

That's exactly how I interpreted it as well, Area Woman. I think he was being sincerely warm there... I believe he hesitated because he was unfamiliar with the custom and didn't know what was expected of him, but readily clasped hands once he realized what he was supposed to do.

And I totally agree that if Sam would stop playing into Azazel's plans, Cas wouldn't have anything against him. Humans are works of art, after all. :)

#545

ana joven

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Posted Feb 20, 2009 @ 10:52 PM

I agree. I think Castiel in his own weird angel way loves humans. He would have obeyed God's will and destroyed the town if Dean had told him to, but he had prayed that Dean wouldn't. I think that's Castiel's stand regarding Sam as well. He really hopes Sam will right himself for his own sake. He loves those works of art :)

#546

Colacuernito

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Posted Feb 23, 2009 @ 8:00 PM

and an attempt at intimidation.


I think I'll be going with this one, in Castiel's case. It could be intimidation OR a way to get Sam to focus completely on him and listen to what Castiel was going to tell him next.

#547

galwaycounty

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Posted Feb 23, 2009 @ 9:49 PM

Sorry. Never mind.

#548

iamanidiot

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Posted Feb 23, 2009 @ 9:54 PM

I agree. I think Castiel in his own weird angel way loves humans. He would have obeyed God's will and destroyed the town if Dean had told him to, but he had prayed that Dean wouldn't. I think that's Castiel's stand regarding Sam as well. He really hopes Sam will right himself for his own sake. He loves those works of art :)


Stop that right now LOL .. You all are making me like Cas way too much ;-)
Can I say though that Sam and Dean are two works of art- Both Gorgeous, Hot, and Sexy !

#549

Arashi

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Posted Feb 24, 2009 @ 7:54 AM

That's exactly how I interpreted it as well, Area Woman. I think he was being sincerely warm there... I believe he hesitated because he was unfamiliar with the custom and didn't know what was expected of him, but readily clasped hands once he realized what he was supposed to do.


I agree. In fact, I would have found it majorly odd if Castiel had grabbed Sam's hand immediately. That's still the guy, who, upon first meeting Dean when Dean said "thanks for (pulling me out)" completely failed to pick up on the sarcasm and how it telegraphed he was gonna get knifed in the next second.

Instead he acknowledged Dean's thanks with a pleasant little nod, as if it was totally heartfelt. Hee. God only knows what he thought this other weird human intended to do by sticking out his hand. :)

#550

pantera

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Posted Feb 24, 2009 @ 8:20 AM

That's still the guy, who, upon first meeting Dean when Dean said "thanks for (pulling me out)" completely failed to pick up on the sarcasm and how it telegraphed he was gonna get knifed in the next second.

Instead he acknowledged Dean's thanks with a pleasant little nod, as if it was totally heartfelt. Hee. God only knows what he thought this other weird human intended to do by sticking out his hand. :)

LOL, great point Arashi. Castiel still needs to learn a lot about humans, which is really endearing.

#551

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Posted Feb 24, 2009 @ 8:27 AM

That's why I was soooo frustrated by Julie's recent, semi cryptic interview. She complimented fans for analyzing the handshake scene, looking at it from different perspectives and then understanding how it was intended to be understood. All the while, I'm reading and saying, "And? And?' But, of course, Julie stopped short of actually explaining what it was the fans finally understood. I've read so many different fan interpretations and it would have been awesome to hear which one the writer actually wanted to convey.

(And, so true, Arashi. I'd never thought of it like that! Hee.)

#552

Area Woman

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Posted Feb 24, 2009 @ 10:27 AM

She complimented fans for analyzing the handshake scene, looking at it from different perspectives and then understanding how it was intended to be understood. All the while, I'm reading and saying, "And? And?'

Well jeez, ster1. Now it's going to be driving me nuts as well!

#553

ster1

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Posted Feb 24, 2009 @ 10:55 AM

Sorry, Area Woman

*hands you some of mama 's awesome booze collection* Try some of this, hon. Enough of this stuff and the mytharc actually starts to make sense.

#554

Glaciescordis

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Posted Mar 2, 2009 @ 5:19 AM

, but because of the way his secrets, lies and powers are driving a wedge between Dean and Sam and therefore making it easier for the angels to get closer to Dean.

I think it has more to do with the YED's game plan and finding out the endgame. Sam is the only YED victim left and he's the only one that can provide any clues to what the YED was planning.

Not exactly, I think, there is Rosie (and her generation), too. The angels would just have to wait for about twenty years. ;)

But the real reason I wondered about their good cop/bad cop dynamic is because in "In The Beginning" Castiel said (if I remember correctly), "You [Dean] have to stop him [Sam]. If you don't, we will." And Dean shot him a death glare. So ordering Dean how to deal with his brother, especially with the added threat, wasn't exactly a good idea, if Castiel wanted to get Dean on their side because at that time Dean was completely on Sammy's side and didn't know anything about Sam's doings. Dean didn't like it when JOHN told him that, he sure liked it less when a (not so random) angel was telling him. But after Dean's glare Castiel's behavior changed a little. Gone are the threats ("I pulled you out of Hell, I can throw you back in.") and the orders ("You have to stop it/him.") from the first three episodes, left is a Castiel who is trying his best to make nice with Dean and goes so far that he admits to having doubts himself which, honestly, he maybe shouldn't have told anyone about, even if he really has them because of, you know, being an angel without a falling wish. I'm not saying that Castiel isn't the friendlier angel of them but that Castiel is trying a little bit too hard to get to Dean while still not doing anything to get Sam and Dean back together.

Now in this episode Uriel suddenly shows up and takes over the part of the bad cop with the Winchesters, something that Castiel did in the first three episodes without hesitation even if he was mostly friendly back then, too. Maybe Uriel does so to show Dean (and Sam) that Castiel really is there to trust for Dean and understands (or rather wants to understand) human nature. Uriel doesn't try to make nice with Dean at all, he doesn't hide that he just cares about getting the job done. And if he can smite a town full of people that's just a bonus. Castiel next to him has to look like the good guy to the Winchesters. Uriel tells/orders Sam that he should better stop using his powers/hanging around with Ruby (by the way, I agree with the angels here), something that Castiel told/ordered Dean before but has stopped in favor to emote about his own touchy-feely self-help crap (to say it with Dean's words :) ). Uriel isn't nice to Dean (4.10. and the next threat of throwing Dean back into Hell), he isn't nice to Sam and he sure isn't doing or telling Dean anything about his supposed mission except that his brother is bad, bad news.

Furthermore, if Sam doesn't use his powers, if Sam stops with whatever it is the angels want him to stop, how is Dean (or how are the brothers) supposed to find out Azazel's endgame if their only clue is supposed to be Sam using his powers and running around with Ruby? It just doesn't make sense to order Sam to stop using them in that case.

IMO, it would have been far more sensible to sit Sam and Dean down together and tell them they need to find out the YED's endgame, so could Sam, please, play along with Ruby as long as they need him to and could Dean, please, stop fighting with Ruby and instead try to find out what she knows and could the boys, pretty please, work together?! Because it's pretty impossible for Dean to really find out what Sam and Ruby are doing if he is fighting with Sam all the time and if they don't trust each other and if he calls Ruby a bitch and doesn't try to gain her trust even if he still hates her guts. But that's exactly what is happening now and everything Dean knows about the YED's endgame is that Sam is sneaking around with Ruby IF that's part of Azazel's endgame. That's not exactly much, I think. The way the angels are dealing with Sam and Dean doesn't really help Dean's mission if this is Dean's mission. However, if they are trying to set the brothers against each other (or just to push them farther than they maybe would if it wasn't for mendling angels and demons) because they can't have Dean listening to Sam when it comes to his real mission whatever that may be, then their plan is definitly working with all the distrust, lies and secrets between the brothers now.

#555

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Posted Mar 2, 2009 @ 6:33 AM

The way the angels are dealing with Sam and Dean doesn't really help Dean's mission if this is Dean's mission.

I don't think it is Dean's whole mission. I think it's part of it, but not all of it. Dean's not been saved just to find out the end game, just to stop Sam. Anyone can do that, especially if it's a wait and see situation, and the angels can smite Sam if Sam gets too far. If the angels can't, then Dean, human being and man without powers, isn't going to be able to stop Sam either. If Sam is going to go evil, I doubt he is going to listen to the speech of love. We've already seen that Sam is disdainful of his brother's perceived 'weakness'.

However, if they are trying to set the brothers against each other (or just to push them farther than they maybe would if it wasn't for mendling angels and demons) because they can't have Dean listening to Sam when it comes to his real mission whatever that may be, then their plan is definitly working with all the distrust, lies and secrets between the brothers now.

Maybe, but for what purpose? I don't really think they need to fear Dean being so mindless as to listen to Sam and only Sam, especially after Sex & Violence and Dean realizing not is all well with Sam. So, for me, this wouldn't make much sense.

I tend to feel that while the angels need to find out what the endgame is, I don't feel that it's the one important thing on their mind, nor the reason Dean was saved. The YED has had multiple generations. My guess as to why he never managed to reach the endgame is that the other generations' prospective generals were stopped, most likely by the angels.

As for Rosie and her generation, true, they are still there, but the YED isn't. Unless someone else is taking his place, my guess is their powers won't even turn on on thir 22nd year.

#556

ana joven

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Posted Mar 2, 2009 @ 10:00 AM

I think it is indeed highly likely that Uriel was brought in not only to smite the town but to act as bad cop to Cas's good cop. I like this idea. At the same time, I also think that Castiel is sincere in his change of attitude towards Dean. I think he has begun to empathize with him.

Dean and Sam should work things out themselves. Unfortunately, they're not and the rift is deepening between them. But I don't think that's anybody's fault but their own.

#557

Area Woman

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Posted Mar 2, 2009 @ 3:58 PM

Furthermore, if Sam doesn't use his powers, if Sam stops with whatever it is the angels want him to stop, how is Dean (or how are the brothers) supposed to find out Azazel's endgame if their only clue is supposed to be Sam using his powers and running around with Ruby? It just doesn't make sense to order Sam to stop using them in that case.

How does Sam using his powers help them figure out Azazel's endgame? I don't think we've been given any indication that the powers do anything except pull demons, and Sam and Ruby certainly haven't mentioned old Yellow Eyes as a motivating factor -- Lilith, yes. YED, no. Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never understood Sam's powers to be a clue that's supposed to lead the brothers anywhere. They're leading Sam to Hell, that much they've made clear. Other than that, the boys seem to be just as clueless as the rest of us. For the time being, anyway. I've got my fingers and toes crossed that the story will gain some momentum when it starts back up again next week. (Next week? YAY!)

#558

LisaJ

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Posted Mar 2, 2009 @ 4:11 PM

Now in this episode Uriel suddenly shows up and takes over the part of the bad cop with the Winchesters, something that Castiel did in the first three episodes without hesitation even if he was mostly friendly back then, too. Maybe Uriel does so to show Dean (and Sam) that Castiel really is there to trust for Dean and understands (or rather wants to understand) human nature

I think it's a possibility, but there's another possibility that maybe the angels themselves feared that Cas could be letting his feelings for Dean cloud his judgement, and could have sent Uriel with Cas not to play good cop vs. bad cop but to watch Cas.

As for Rosie and her generation, true, they are still there, but the YED isn't. Unless someone else is taking his place, my guess is their powers won't even turn on on thir 22nd year.

How do we know though that Sam's and Rosie's generations are the only two generations though? I think maybe they were more generations before and maybe demons like Meg are the products of previous generations. There's also a possibility that each generation had a different role for YED's endgame and that there are more special children from previous generations still living that weren't supposed to play Sam's role in the end-game but different roles.
I hope the show answers these questions when they finally reveal YED's endgame.