82 replies to this topic

[TWoP Roxy]

From zap2it.com:

Hunt is outraged by the murder of a returning Vietnam veteran; Tyler is sent down a mysterious path that might provide clues about his family's past.

[Last Time Lord]

This show is on a roll! I loved Sam ruining Solvant Green for Ray, and I'm glad Chris got to be a hero.

[pacejunkie]

Loved it. Still love Windy and still love Ray. I am so eternally grateful to the writers for keeping Gene in his safe, comfortable office and sending Ray out on the investigation trail with Sam. The Sam/Ray cop team works well on the beat. Some great lines and scenes in this one, especially loved the interrogation scene with the three thugs. Sam's sodomy soliloquy had me in tears. And poor Chris.

My only small problem with the writing is that I think they went out of their way to make Gene a little too enlightened for his age and the time period, using Ray instead as the close-minded neanderthal. Gene should also be a bit of a neanderthal but it was as if they were afraid of the audience not liking him if he were homophobic. They need to keep him real while giving him a heart at the same time. That's not easy, but this seemed to ring a bit false.

Other than that, I really enjoyed this episode. Finding the box in the house was an interesting twist. At first I thought the little girl in the photo was Maya as a child, but then I thought maybe it was just to show that his past had changed somehow and some things were as he remembered them and others weren't. Yet there he was, walking with his dad, so it proves he did in fact exist. The mystery deepens.

I loved Sam ruining Solvant Green for Ray

Oh yeah! Hey, Ray, they're PEOPLE! HAH!

Edited by pacejunkie, Oct 23, 2008 @ 10:12 PM.

[Fabrisse]

Once again the music played with 70s cop show themes, and the music that they picked from the period wasn't the standard fare.

Loved the moment at the end with Sam seeing himself with his dad.

We also had, I think, the first POV break. There were two scenes that Sam didn't witness.

[ehkca]

I don't know why but I'm finding Imperioli weirdly sexy.

One thing that kind of bothered me, though, was Gene and Ray having a conversation without the presence of Sam. It kind of negates some of the possible explanations for Sam's time travelling, doesn't it? It's strange, and not quite right somehow, to see 70s world without the filter of Sam.

ETA: Oh hey, Fabrisse! Evidently we're of one mind.

Edited by ehkca, Oct 23, 2008 @ 10:17 PM.

[pacejunkie]

We're seeing quite a few contradictory clues now. Not everything is from Sam's POV, he thinks he remembers his house and he gets some details right and others wrong. He can't find his family listed anywhere but crosses his four year old self on the street. I think it's all meant to confuse you and keep you from sticking to one clear theory. It isn't all going to fit into one box.

[Jacob's Hair Dye]

I think they went out of their way to make Gene a little too enlightened for his age and the time period,

I don't think he was. I think that the fact Bob was a war hero, a veteran, was what Gene grabbed onto in order to continue to continue the investigation. In the scene with just Gene and Ray, Gene says being a murderer was worse than being gay, but that being gay wasn't much better. I don't remember the exact phrase he used, but it was something about "despite our beliefs, no man deserves to be murdered."

[pacejunkie]

I hear you, but it sounded a little preachy to my ears, like he was reciting a speech. It just didn't come off as authentic to me that's all.

[clack]

It was terrible -- preachy and heavy-handed.

[Bulldog]

Why did young Sam appear to be wearing eye liner?

[Odac]

I got some major problems with this episode that I don't have time to go into now, there were also a few bits that were really intriging, but one thing I wanted to throw out there before someone scooped me on it: the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that whether or not the rest of 1973 is "real", Windy definitely isn't real. That is, she's not a part of the 1973 reality, she's definitely in Sam's mind. No one else in 1973 seems to ever see her or aknowlege her existance, even when she's in a public place. Plus she seems to know about Sam being from 2008 even though we've never seen him tell her.

[Last Time Lord]

Why did young Sam appear to be wearing eye liner?

I thought it was interesting that Young Sam appeared to have red hair, and not looking very much like a mini Jason O'Mara.

[Ginn]

Sam was the one who sounded preachy to me. "One day prejudice like this is going to change the landscape of this city!" Seriously, who talks like that? More importantly, who talks like that in the NYPD?

I'm mostly interested in how crazy he is now. Seriously, the nuttier the better; it's the only thing keeping him interesting for me. Maybe Windy is imaginary? That would be awesome.

[basiltherat]

. . . that eyeliner is from the Richard Alpert Collection. This show is feeling to me like Lost meets Twin Peaks. Maharashis, midgets, time back and forth and trippy.

[MethodActor05]

I liked the ending montage. Good song.

[Janie1130]

The thing that made this episode for me? A two second glimpse of Dean Winters! Be still my foolish heart!

[clack]

What is the point of having Sam lecture 1973 characters by mouthing the liberal pieties of 2008? I just don't get what the writers are going for.

[mumbles]

Agree with most of you that the preachiness was a little much but liked this episode the best of all the ones so far because the actual mystery was fun to follow - a few suspects, some red herrings, etc.

[While A Coyote]

What is the point of having Sam lecture 1973 characters by mouthing the liberal pieties of 2008? I just don't get what the writers are going for.

To draw in a 2008 audience with crass heavy-handed message politics?

BTW: I keep hearing the song "Windy" in my head. I wonder how long until we hear it on the show? The song was a bit dated by 1973 though.

[gl_shark]

It was a little slow at first but since I'm loving '70's decor and music I wasn't too bored. Loved seeing Harvey throw down the chair on that punk.

And I'm loving Chris. "That man looked like my uncle....who use to take me to Broadway shows...oh no.."

[Fabrisse]

I keep hearing the song "Windy" in my head. I wonder how long until we hear it on the show? The song was a bit dated by 1973 though.

I keep hoping that we not only hear it, but that it's the version the Muppets did.

The second the accountant said how wonderful Bobby Short was at the Carlyle, I thought they were going with gay.

Hunt throwing the chair down on the twerp who was gay-bashing was great, but I must admit Sam not even blinking before going into the sodomy soliloquy was a nice change. He's adjusting, for good or ill, he's adjusting.

[Last Time Lord]

Speaking of the sodomy soliloquy, that whole thing was great, especially when Gene interjected to ask the difference between sodomy and major sodomy, which got the guy to talk.

[voiceover]

Sam was the one who sounded preachy to me. "One day prejudice like this is going to change the landscape of this city!" Seriously, who talks like that? More importantly, who talks like that in the NYPD?

Yes. That whole sequence, drawing a straight line from Ray's homophobia to 9/11, was too much. And I notice Sam has jumped on the hypocrite wagon when it suits him -- like not flinching while Gene was beating up on people with offensive POVs.

Dear show, don't hit us over the head too much. I'm already fed up with the Mad Men actors griping about the horrible racist, sexist things they're forced to say (for money). I get it! you're pretending to be that person, you aren't really that person.

[While A Coyote]

I keep hoping that we not only hear it, but that it's the version the Muppets did.

According to this, that happened in 1969.

The original song, by The Association, was from 1967. Apparently the song was either about the writer, Ruthann Friedman's dog, or about some guy who she met in David Crosby's house.

It was apparently SUCH a monster hit in the summer of '67 though that its not inconceivable that some wacky Hippie chick might re-name herself for it.

[rue bee]

What is the point of having Sam lecture 1973 characters by mouthing the liberal pieties of 2008? I just don't get what the writers are going for.

To draw in a 2008 audience with crass heavy-handed message politics?

I don't think they're saying everything is better today. I found the comment about the Hate Crime interesting. Beating someone to death is beating someone to death. Is a motivation of homophobia truly more despicable than theft, for example? Also, back then, "liberals" treated returning vets with open disrespect. I think both the extreme left and extreme right are going to get critiqued (in their time and our time). Of course, since Sam is the central character, it may seem like the show itself is "liberal 2008" but that's just his POV. And he isn't always right. Show, especially cop shows, have to be allowed to deal with political realities. How can they not?

Gretchen Mol is doing really nice subtle work with Annie. It's funny -- I never thought she had the right kind of presence for the big screen but she's made for tv.

[Toy Purple Belt]

Suspect; "You don't have to tell them anything!"
Gene: "Neither do you." (drops chair on suspect)

Me: "HAHAHAHAHA!!"
Kinda felt like doing that to Sam during his rambling about the hippies being patriotic to protest an unjust war and corporate greed et cetera. Like, dude, the war's been over a week. Nobody needs to hear your opinion on what makes them tick. Focus on the murder investigation thingy please, thank you.

[Odac]

Jeez, large parts of tonight's show were downright insufferable due to the preachiness. It was bad enough when Sam was moralizing about how "this sort of prejudice and hate will one day change the physical landscape of this city", but then to have Hunt suddenly show off a Heart Of Gold and ream Ray out for not moving on a case because it involved a "queer", no. Gene Hunt, *any* Gene Hunt, cannot secretly be an enlightened, progressive soul underneath all that bluster. He has to be a living, breathing example of all the rampant racism, prejudice & ignorance that was pervasive in the NYPD and American society of that time. They cannot make it "easy" to like this guy.

I can buy making him sympathetic with the Veterans angle, showing that it kills him inside seeing the hostility the returning Vietnam veterans are facing compared to the heroes welcome he came home to from WW II. I mean, it was done in a really ham fisted, inelegant, preachy way, but with better writing it would have been a really nice, effective way to show Gene in a more sympathetic light. But having that sense of duty & honor to a fellow veteran just immediately & totally override any prejudice about his personal life is just way too easy. They should have had him at least struggle with it. Make him the worst sort of homophobe, and show him being torn in two directions, his sense of honor & duty to a fellow veteran who got a raw deal struggling against his homophobia & reluctance to deal with that issue on any level. Granted, if it was done the way the rest of this episode was written, it would have just made it even more insufferably moralizing & preachy, but with some decent writing and a touch of subtlety it could have made for a damm compelling Gene episode.

Anyway, at least the odd little surrealistic touches dealing with the big "What the Hell Is Really Going On" question continue to be pretty well done. I've already mentioned how I suspect that Windy isn't really part of this 1973 reality to anyone but Sam (as imaginary girlfriends go, at least she's a lot less stressful to be around than ChipSix), but what the hell was up with that Maharishi? it didn't seem like any of that was "real", either, but it seemed like Sam sort of drifted into this less-real "reality" from the hippie party which was a part of the (relatively) more real "1973" reality.

Also, a nice little fake-out with the broadly telegraphed shoebox full of Sam's memories, ...except not. The obvious suggestion, upon seeing the photo of the Black family with a little Black girl, is one I've seen mentioned here that perhaps this is really all *Maya*'s coma dream, that she's imagining that she's Sam somehow fighting to come to her rescue. Except, the girl in that photo looked at least 10 years old; if we take that as evidence that Maya was that age in 1973, then it seems like in 2008 she'd be a little too old to be Lisa Bonet.

And on a minor note, that shot of the mimeograph machine, complete with Annie sniffing the ditto copies, brought back some distant memories. I think when I was in grade school I must have had an assignment, probably something like the AV club, where I ran one of those mimeograph machines (we called them "ditto" machines), cranking out copies of tests for the teachers. I don't remember exactly how they worked, but the original was always hand written for some reason, maybe with some kind of special pen, and the copies or "dittoes" came out printed with this blue ink on this special coated paper. And sniffing the dittoes fresh off the roller could give you a buzz not unlike a magic marker would. I'd pretty much completely forgotten their existance until now.

Edited by Odac, Oct 24, 2008 @ 4:07 AM.

[paddymcpaddy]

I gave this show three chances and three was more than enough. It's preachy, overly heavy-handed when it really doesn't need to be so, I don't like the acting, I find Windy annoying, and it's just...not my cup of tea.

P.S. A cop in the NYC metro area in the early seventies who would have been of Gene's age was just not going to be sympathetic to 'queers'. It may be Sam's fantasy; what's happening on screen simply does not work for me. I'm finished with it.

[bear88]

This was the first episode that bored and irritated me. The preachiness was insufferable. The mystery was solved the moment I saw the squad leader. The departure from Sam's perspective doesn't work, and Gene's little speech was not worth it. There were just a number of times when I said to myself, "That's awful writing," especially during Sam and Gene's speeches.

The most interesting thing about the episode was the thought that Windy, who annoys me too, might not be real. The bit at the end in which Sam sees his younger self worked, but how could it not?

[lyz2814]

Oh man, when Sam was yelling about predjudice and changing the landscape of the city--I thought he was talking about Stonewall. Oops.

I also thought that Gene's lines should have been written differently. I really expected him stick to the idea that as a Vet, the victim deserves respect. And have Gene violently cling to that to avoid having to deal with his homophobia. I expected him to be much more forceful, when yelling about bringing the _murderer_ to justice; kind of covering for his distaste.