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Genre: Comic Book/Superhero Movies


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#1

TWoP Dietrich

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Posted Oct 18, 2008 @ 1:33 PM

Yes, not all comic book movies involve superheroes. And not all superhero movies are based on comic books. And yet, they peacefully coexist in this thread.
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#2

CantThinkUpName

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Posted Oct 18, 2008 @ 10:19 PM

I still think that the worst comic series is Fantastic Four. They somehow managed to take all the fun away from space exploration. The China set in FF2 might be the worst set I've ever seen in a movie.
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#3

thuganomics85

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Posted Oct 19, 2008 @ 3:52 AM

Yeah, the Fantastic Four films were defintely lame. I did enjoy Michael Chiklis as The Thing, which made the second film even worse, by putting him in the background, and concentrating on stuff I didn't care about, like Reed and Sue's "Will they ever get married?!" storyline, or the plot about Human Torch being a rebel and fucking things up.

Another lame comic book movie? Ghost Rider. It's hard to believe how many bad, silly, and ridiculous things were in that movie: Nicolas Cage "Caging it up", Wes Bentley devouring the scene as the villian, Ghost Rider giving the cops the finger, Peter Fonda actually uttering the line "Long time, no see!", and boy, I could go on. It's not a good sign when the character played by Eva Mendes might actually be the least suckiest things about your film.

Ah... thinking about those things made me appreciate Iron Man and, of course, The Dark Knight even more.
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#4

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Oct 20, 2008 @ 2:15 PM

I think my favorite comic book movie, at least modern one has to be Blade. I remember going to see that movie in theaters and how awesome it was. It was one of the first comic movies (2 years before X-men) and it really seemed like the producers had nothing to lose and little to no expectations so they went all out. Plus it really seemed like everyone involved knew that the comic movie fan base would be guys in their late teens and 20's so they could make the movie R rated with tons of action and zero love story. The sequels were awful and now comic book movies are all made with such big budgets that there are lots of people giving their input and you have to hit a bunch of demographics (there pretty much has to be a love story and you have to make it PG-13) .

Edited by Kel Varnsen, Oct 20, 2008 @ 2:17 PM.

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#5

samsnee

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Posted Oct 21, 2008 @ 8:53 AM

I thought Blade was ok. Blade II was far superior, and the less said about Blade III the better.

And yes Ghost Rider sucked beyond all levels.

My biggest gripe is that all these movies are set up at different studios, so the chances of us seeing Spider-man pop up in a X-men movie are next to none.
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#6

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Oct 21, 2008 @ 11:31 AM

My biggest gripe is that all these movies are set up at different studios, so the chances of us seeing Spider-man pop up in a X-men movie are next to none.


I think that is due to the fact that when Marvel was selling the movie rights to their characters, they were kind of hurting for cash (they filed for bankruptcy in the mid 1990's). So they basically sold off their movie rights for their major characters to the highest bidders.

I thought Blade was ok. Blade II was far superior, and the less said about Blade III the better.


I didn't really like Blade 2. I thought by that point they realized that there was a bunch of money to be made so there was too much input from too many people. I mean the whole idea of the good guy and the bad guys teaming up to fight an even bigger bad guy has been done so many times (especially in comics). Plus I thought a lot of the CG effects looked really bad. I agree though, Blade 3 was awful, and didn't really make a lot of sense.
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#7

flickchick85

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Posted Oct 21, 2008 @ 1:14 PM

I just don't think Blade is my thing, as I haven't really enjoyed any of the movies, and I was totally dragged kicking and screaming to the 3rd one, which was even more painful than I expected. That said, plots be damned (because I really can't remember any of them), I thought Blade 2 was the best. Visually, anyway. But the 1st one had the hotness of Stephen Dorff, along with the semi-interesting origin story, so that one would be a very close 2nd for me.

It still baffles me beyond belief that Fantastic Four beat Batman Begins at the box office that summer. One of the worst superhero movies kicking the ass of one of the best, and ensuring us lots of terrible sequels to come. Oh well, at least TDK made up for it. But even that can't do away with the FF franchise for us. I wonder how long it'll be before Marvel gets the rights to those properties they sold off back (mainly Spidey, FF, and X-men)? Probably a good long while, but I think they could ALL stand for a "reboot." Maybe a Spidey series where MJ isn't the girl-next-door and one and only love interest of the entire series, and Venom isn't introduced and offed in 15 minutes. And while I actually like the casting of the X-men series a lot, their stories seem to have been run into the ground. Maybe they could get a fresh start with the same cast? But ideally, any reboots would be a decade or two down the line, so...maybe not.
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#8

CantThinkUpName

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Posted Oct 21, 2008 @ 2:09 PM

F4 I don't even like calling it a comic book movie. It was like an 80s action movie featuring people with super powers. The Fantastic Four should have been filled with the wonder and amazement of space like in 1950s/1960s sci-fi movies. It should have had an epic feel. It felt really cheap to me.

The casting...Julian McMahon, I can't even tell how he'd do as a real Doom since they screwed up Dr. Doom too much. Ioan Gruffauld is one of those actors I think I like but was totally miscast. (Tim Robbins for RR!) And Jessica Alba was garbage. Evans and Chiklis...were OK even though The Thing itself looked poor.

Spiderman- I liked Spiderman 1 and Spiderman 2. Spiderman 3... had its problems (yes I'm being generous here). It didn't help that Spiderman's biggest asshole move was before getting the black suit. (I hated when he kissed Gwen. While Mary Jane was acting a bit bitchy, she had a right to be emotional and he knew that would hurt her. I do have to admit Topher Grace was the best part in that movie.

I would have liked if Raimi had set up the trilogy as a trilogy with minor things carrying on from movie to movie. I would have wanted to see Gwen Stacy die in the first or second one. A spry, spunky Mary Jane (which I think Dunst could have played if she was just written better). And I think it's telling that Spiderman 3, I still thought it had more of an epic scope where half the movie was people crying than FF1 or FF2.

X-Men is an odd situation. I liked X1 and X2. I understood why X1 had to be as it was but I thought Singer showed what he could do in X2. If Singer had been allowed to continue the X-Men series in his way, I definitely think it could be a formidable franchise. But Ratner really fucked it up. Yes I know the box office totals were strong but it was such a crappy movie and totally disgraced the characters. Phoenix storyline was ruined, the mutant cure storyline was ruined, the characters were all terrible. I hated how the final fight has hundreds of bad mutants whose power seems to be super jumping against only five X-Men. Wolverine, Storm (who, despite Halle Berry's contentions, sucked and you know Ratner probably just bowed to her demands), Colossus (a cameo character), Kitty Pryde (who we were just introduced to), and Iceman (kind of a second tier character). They killed Cyclops and Professor X! I will never forgive that movie for not giving Rogue a chance to shine. Her power is to absorb other mutants powers and a scene during that battle where she just randomly touches a bunch of mutants and explodes with a variety of awesome skills would have probably been the coolest scene in the movie. Instead they take away her strength of character by having her get cured.

Then there's Superman Returns which was really bad. I appreciated what Singer was trying to do and that he had a unique and gigantic vision he wanted to show. But that doesn't make up for the horrible script (which directly cribbed the worst parts of Superman: The Movie), horrible characters, a horrible plot (again with the real estate?), and a mopier and more unlikeable Superman than Smallville's.
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#9

thuganomics85

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Posted Oct 21, 2008 @ 3:47 PM

They killed Cyclops and Professor X!


Both of those deaths sucked in their own way, but I really hated the treatment of Cyclops, in the third film. He was barely there for 5 mintues, only to get killed off. Total disrespect to both James Mardsen and the character. I love Wolverine and Hugh Jackman, but I always though Cyclops/James got the bum rap, since he was the least popular guy, in the Wolv/Jean/Cyclops love triangle. I'm glad James is starting to take off now, after that shitty deal.

The first X-Men had it's faults, but I thought it was a good setup, and I loved the second one. But man, did Rather fuck up the third film. Too many characters got shafted for Wolverine, Jean Grey, and Storm (yes, I suspect they were just trying to cash in on Halle Berry's A-list, Oscar winning status, at that time.) I'm hoping Wolverine, the movie, will be much better.
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#10

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Oct 21, 2008 @ 4:26 PM

Both of those deaths sucked in their own way, but I really hated the treatment of Cyclops, in the third film. He was barely there for 5 mintues, only to get killed off. Total disrespect to both James Mardsen and the character.


And on top of that wasn't Cyclops even killed off camera? What the hell was that.


I thought Blade 2 was the best. Visually, anyway. But the 1st one had the hotness of Stephen Dorff, along with the semi-interesting origin story, so that one would be a very close 2nd for me.

It still baffles me beyond belief that Fantastic Four beat Batman Begins at the box office that summer.


I agree that there are better superhero movies out there than Blade. But looking back it the fact that it came out before X-men and the whole super-hero movie boom made it really unique. It just seemed like it was the exact opposite of everything that was wrong with a movie like Spidey 3 or Fantastic Four. I mean those movies you had a ton of money invested with the expectation of even more profit so you had to have the hot "it" girl love interest (to get women to show up), and you had to keep the violence and the swearing to the minimum and you have to have something where we can do cross-promotion at McDonalds (to get the kids to show up). With Blade it was like they said, we want to make a movie that is really violent, there is going to be lots of swearing, we will cast who we want, and we will have our main character doing morally questionable stuff like killing cops. But since the budget really isn't that big, and not a lot of people had heard of the character to begin with no one seem to care.

I think it will be rare to ever get a situation like that again (especially for a character from a major comic book company), since the budgets have skyrocketed for super-hero movies. Plus everyone seems to be so worried about doing permanant damage to a character or a possible franchise that a lot less risks are taken. Which is why you end up with bland boring movies like Fantastic Four. The second fantastic four was just terrible, they could have done something really amazing with the Surfer and Galactus but they just made it stupid.
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#11

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Posted Oct 21, 2008 @ 5:29 PM

Another lame comic book movie? Ghost Rider. It's hard to believe how many bad, silly, and ridiculous things were in that movie: Nicolas Cage "Caging it up", Wes Bentley devouring the scene as the villian, Ghost Rider giving the cops the finger, Peter Fonda actually uttering the line "Long time, no see!", and boy, I could go on. It's not a good sign when the character played by Eva Mendes might actually be the least suckiest things about your film.

Considering I didn't mind Daredevil, I thought Electra wasn't that bad, both The Fantastic Four movies were good popcorn fluff for me, Blade III was ridiculous but enjoyable (Ryan Reynolds might be my only reasoning) and I even thought The Punisher was tolerable, I think my hatred of Ghost Rider has clout.

It was stupid in plot, casting, cinematography, special effects, dialogue and music. I cannot find a redeeming factor in that movie -- and I like both Wes Bentley and Sam Elliott a lot -- and I think the original footage should be burned with the same methods used to dispose of medical waste.

Damn stupid movie.

Both of those deaths sucked in their own way, but I really hated the treatment of Cyclops, in the third film. He was barely there for 5 mintues, only to get killed off. Total disrespect to both James Mardsen and the character.

This bugged me like crazy. I've always had an irrational fondness for Cyclops (I used to watch the cartoon) and I thought it was just stupid to do that to a legacy character. I know James Mardsen had a part in Superman Returns and that messed up the filming schedule or something, but that doesn't excuse the ridiculous plot, off-screen death and pure insanity of killing him. Coma. I would have accepted a coma. Christ.

I look forward to 2015 when they reboot X-Men, hopefully. Comic book movies are perpetually rebootable. If they reboot Ghost Rider, they need to have a restraining order against Nicolas Cage so he can't be within 20 miles of filming.
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#12

samsnee

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 9:30 AM

The more I watch Spider-man 2, which is arguably one of the best superhero movies ever, the less I like it. My main problem with the series is Kirsten Dunst. Her acting is atrocious, and shes definitely the weakest link of the cast.

I liked how the try to make F4 a lighter comic book movie against the sea of dark angsty ones, but the execution was just horrible. Again, a terribly miscast female lead (Alba, really?) and a villain that didn't come close to the origin source. They may have completey changed Doc Ock's origins, but at least the character was still interestng. How do you not manage to do that with Doom?
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#13

IBM62

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 11:54 AM

Yeah, God...How many important characters died in X3? Jean...Prof. X...Cyclops...I don't read the comic books, but I know that these are all iconic characters and to kill off all three seemed pretty disrespectful. Also, where was Nightcrawler in that movie? There was no explanation what so ever about what happened to him - but instead, we get a whole bunch of random newbies like Beast, Collossus, Angel and Shadowcat who don't really do anything. Eh, yeah. Weird movie. Wasn't McSteamy in it though (as some really random mutant who had like two lines?)
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#14

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 2:53 PM

Yeah, God...How many important characters died in X3? Jean...Prof. X...Cyclops...I don't read the comic books, but I know that these are all iconic characters and to kill off all three seemed pretty disrespectful. Also, where was Nightcrawler in that movie? There was no explanation what so ever about what happened to him - but instead, we get a whole bunch of random newbies like Beast, Collossus, Angel


Speaking as a former huge comics fan Beast and Angel were just as iconic as Cyclops and Jean. All four of them along with Iceman made up the original X-men when the comic came out in 1963.

As far as other comic book movies go, I watched Batman from 1989 awhile back. I was shocked how much that movie did not hold up over the years. I mean for the most part I think the majority of CG effects are crap, but the traditional effects they used in this movie were just as bad if not worse. Plus the Joker was so over the top he just stole the show and you hardly got to explore who Bruce/Batman was. Not to mention that Jack Nicholson was basically just playing his standard bad guy character (same character as in the Departed or any number of other movies, now with facepaint). Plus I thought it was stupid how they tied together Batman and The Joker's origins.
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#15

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 3:00 PM

I liked how the try to make F4 a lighter comic book movie against the sea of dark angsty ones, but the execution was just horrible. Again, a terribly miscast female lead (Alba, really?)

I don't know my comic books heroes all that well, but even I knew that casting Jessica Alba as a woman who can DISAPPEAR is a stupid fucking move. Jessica Alba would never one day in her life feel invisible. And while she doesn't reach Denise Richard levels of unbelievable hot lady scientist, she certainly can't keep up with Ioan Gruffydd's Reed Richards. I thought the other three worked fine, and its not really Jessica Alba's fault -- it was just awful, awful casting.

The video game for X3 tried to explain Nightcrawler's absence, IIRC. But he was a really enjoyable part of X2 so yeah, he was missed. Especially since Beast and Angel didn't get a lot to do.
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#16

thuganomics85

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 3:40 PM

As far as other comic book movies go, I watched Batman from 1989 awhile back. I was shocked how much that movie did not hold up over the years.


Yeah, I just watched it again also, and while I don't want to hate on it too much since without it, we probably wouldn't have had anymore Batman films, it really is dated. Joker dancing to Prince, while destroying artwork, was just too silly for me.

Actually, the weirdness thing about that movie was Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent. Seriously, Burton was planning on making him Two-Face? I could watch any of his scenes, without waiting for him to say "Han, old buddy!", or start plugging Colt 45 to Bruce.

Edited by thuganomics85, Oct 22, 2008 @ 3:41 PM.

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#17

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 3:52 PM

Actually, the weirdness thing about that movie was Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent. Seriously, Burton was planning on making him Two-Face? I could watch any of his scenes, without waiting for him to say "Han, old buddy!", or start plugging Colt 45 to Bruce.


I read a really intesting interview with Billy Dee in EW about 6 or 7 years ago. If I remember correctly he talked about how when he signed on to be Dent he, and I think the producers had no idea if they would make a movie with Two-Face or not. But he knew from the comics that Dent becomes Two-Face so he figured it could lead to a great opportunity for him. I think when they made Batman and Robin they actually had to buy out his contract so that they could recast Tommy Lee Jones as Two Face.
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#18

CantThinkUpName

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 8:40 PM

I remember before TDK came out and the Ledger v. Nicholson debate reigned. I don't know how anyone could like Nicholson's lame Joker. And saying he was super evil and awesome because he tried to gas Gotham is like giving credence to STM's Lex Luthor/Otis for trying to destroy Jersey.
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#19

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Posted Oct 22, 2008 @ 10:09 PM

Jack Nicholson's Joker was simply Jack Torrence with clown make up. Just watch The Shining and compare.

Edited by VersesBatman, Oct 22, 2008 @ 10:15 PM.

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#20

ethanvahlere

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Posted Oct 23, 2008 @ 5:26 PM

I don't mind Nicholson as the Joker because for the concept of the movie, his performance fit in perfectly, and he was very entertaining (then again, I'm partial to Jack even when he's over the top). However, I was never a fan of Burton's Batman films; his operatic approach, I thought, was all wrong for the tone of Batman, and I also think Batman and Bruce Wayne got lost in the shuffle. Mind you, I would still rather watch Burton's version of Batman than Schumacher's crap version of Batman.

I think my favorite comic book movies are the first two X-Men movies, because Bryan Singer achieved the correct balance of making great movies that at the same time were good adaptations of the comics (though I should say in this case, I was more a fan of the animated series on Fox than of the comic books). I didn't hate Ratner's version of the third movie, but it's certainly the weakest of the three, and plays like a series of set pieces rather than a sustained movie.

Next to those two, and Nolan's Batman movies, I would put The Crow. I never read the original comic book, but I think it's a beautifully sustained piece of work.

I thought the first Spiderman movie was pretty good, but except for J.K. Simmons as J. Jonah Jameson, I didn't like the second or third ones. I just hated the insistence the movie had of making him the embodiment of mom, apple pie, and so on. I felt like that was being shoved into my face. There was always a rebellious outsider quality to Peter Parker/Spiderman in the comics that I identified with, and I didn't like that being junked for the movies (except for his being poor). Plus, every good comic book story needs a villain, and while Willem Dafoe was a great Green Goblin, I didn't like Alfred Molina as Doc Ock (though to be fair, his character disappears for a large segment of the movie), Thomas Haden Church as Sandman didn't have enough to do, and Topher Grace overacted badly as Venom. Finally, I agree with those who found Kirsten Dunst rather one-note as Mary Jane (and I normally like her).

Talking comic book/superhero movies in general: One of the reasons I had a hard time getting into Heroes is I thought Unbreakable already covered that territory, and covered it better. It's popular now to dump on M. Night Shymalan, and he certainly deserves it, but except for an overwrought scene or two, I thought this really captured the nature of heroism in comic books, and touched on its meaning in real life.
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#21

VersesBatman

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Posted Oct 23, 2008 @ 11:01 PM

I can't understand why Sam Raimi decided to make MJ a sweet girl-next-door type like Gwen Stacy instead of the party girl in the comics. That MJ was more fun. But i guess the former made it so Spiderman had this epic love story.
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#22

samsnee

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Posted Oct 25, 2008 @ 8:45 PM

So what would everyone rank as their best/worst superhero movies?

Best 5 in no particular order

The Dark Knight: A no brainer. While Batman Begins was entertaining, it really just felt like a big set-up for this one. Burton's films felt like they were more in the Burton-verse than that the Batman universe. But Ledger's Joker was spot-on (non-perma-white aside) and it was good to see both Batman and Bruce Wayne fleshed out.

Iron Man: The perfect fun summer superhero movie -- almost the emotional antithesis of TDK. While TDK was a hero conflicted with the long dark road he had set himself on, IM was all about embracing the idea of being a superhero. Also major kudos for a strong female lead that wasn't just a damsel in distress.

X2: The first X-men was like BB... a set-up for something far greater. While I still wish Cyclops got more screen time and Wolverine wasn't so central, I can understand why. Nightcrawler was perfectly realized and cast, and his absence was duly missed in X3.

Spider-man 2: Yet another superior sequel makes me wish we could skip all origin movies, or at least reduce them to the first half hour.

Rocketeer: Not your standard big summer superhero movie but I thought it captured perfectly the feel of those pulp serials of the 1930s and 1940s. It was a fun adventure that was worthy of a follow-up.

And the worst:

Catwoman: The poster alone gives me shivers, and not in a good way.

Hulk: Boring, pretentious, overly long...did I mention boring? The Hulk FX were the only saving grace.

X3/Spider-man 3: Both tried to fit material enough for two movies into one, and it showed. Let's hope Nolan's third doesn't follow the trend.

Daredevil: So a blind lawyer conceals his secret identity by having a kung-fu fight in a children's playground in broad daylight with a woman he just met?

Ghost Rider: Mark Steven Johnson should never be allowed near any comic property ever again. How the director of the aforementioned Daredevil managed to convince anyone to give him another shot is unbelievable.
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#23

Split Ends

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Posted Oct 25, 2008 @ 10:31 PM

samsnee, I like your lists. I would swap Daredevil for Dick Tracy , and I'd swap Rocketeer (which I haven't seen) with 300. I also think The Shadow might fit in the worst list. And I could probably convince myself to squeeze Sin City in the best list.

Unless you mean Hulk 2008 and not Ang Lee's Hulk. I enjoyed this year's Hulk a lot.

I was wondering if anyone else includes the non-traditional type comic book movies in this category, like Ghost World, The Road to Perdition, A History of Violence, etc. Personally, I think of comic book movies as the superhero/fantasy world kind of thing, and even though these movies are based on a graphic novel, when I think of comic book, I don't think of them. Any thoughts?

Edited by Split Ends, Oct 25, 2008 @ 10:34 PM.

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#24

CantThinkUpName

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Posted Oct 25, 2008 @ 11:20 PM

Best are the obvious ones like Dark Knight, Spidey 2. If we're throwing "unconventional" ones in there then Ghost World would easily be near the top. Same with 300 and Sin City.

Worst ones (that you haven't said):
* Fantastic Four/Fantastic Four 2 are probably the worst of the bunch. And I'm not even talking about the Corman version. Those movies were Batman & Robin bad.
* Punisher: The Thomas Jane version. Completely destroyed his backstory. Travolta was a ridiculously bad villian. And the Fire Hydrant of Doom.
* Elektra- just a really horrible, senseless and dull movie.
* Superman III, IV- both embarrassingly terrible for different reasons. Jon Cryer as Lex's totally 80s nephew and Richard Pryor: Computer Hacker were the least of their problems.
* Superman Returns- Singer had a semi-beautiful vision and a terribly heavy handed script.
* Batman & Robin- though I've probably seen this one more than any other comic book movies.

I disliked Daredevil but, compared to a lot of other comic book movies, at least they tried to get the tone right. I didn't mind Ang Lee's Hulk.

Edited by CantThinkUpName, Oct 25, 2008 @ 11:21 PM.

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#25

samsnee

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Posted Oct 26, 2008 @ 12:27 AM

It's sad that there are so many more bad comic book movies than good ones. I had actually blocked Batman & Robin from my memory until you mentioned it.
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#26

Perfect Xero

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Posted Oct 27, 2008 @ 2:29 AM

Daredevil


The director's cut of Daredevil is much better than the theatrical cut, IMO. I'd even go as far as to say that it's a top 5 (or close to it) as far as comic book superhero movies go.
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#27

Kel Varnsen

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Posted Oct 27, 2008 @ 7:39 AM

It's sad that there are so many more bad comic book movies than good ones. I had actually blocked Batman & Robin from my memory until you mentioned it.


As awful as Batman and Robin is I think Batman Forever is just as bad (if not worse in some ways). I just hate how Jim Carrey plays the Riddler as so over the top flamboyant. Plus everyone involved, especially Tommy Lee Jones had no idea what Two-Face was supposed to be about.

As for Batman and Robin goes, I think the thing that pissed me off the most was the fact that they made The Batmobile a one-seater.
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#28

Split Ends

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Posted Oct 27, 2008 @ 2:31 PM

The director's cut of Daredevil is much better than the theatrical cut, IMO.

Really? Hmm. I liked Daredevil well enough. Maybe I'll check out the director's cut.

I actually blocked the last couple old-school Batman movies, too. Two-Face looked like someone smeared him with purple play doh. Jim Carrey in a one-piece. The incredibly lame Mr. Freeze. And a general overdose of villains.
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#29

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Posted Oct 27, 2008 @ 4:08 PM

Robin was a whiny twerp.

"I wanna car!"

Edited by VersesBatman, Oct 27, 2008 @ 4:08 PM.

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#30

CantThinkUpName

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Posted Oct 27, 2008 @ 5:54 PM

Robin was a whiny twerp.

"I wanna car!"

Everytime I watch Batman + Robin, whenever they have the 20 minute motorcycle race through Gotham, I always wonder how much it cost and how many more, better movies could have been made with that pricetag.

He was also able to be taken by surprise from Batgirl. Way to go boy wonder. As bad as BG was, she had the funniest line in the movie. Clad with only a bad, small eye mask, when asked by Batman (presumably sarcsatically) what her name was, she responds with "It's Me! Barbara!"... no shit dummy.

Edited by CantThinkUpName, Oct 27, 2008 @ 5:57 PM.

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