57 replies to this topic

[Odac]

Damm!, I really wanted to start this thread [EDIT: Now you have. ~ Roxy], but got hung up trying to think of an appropriately clever title (the best I could come up with was "Is it an anachronism, a clue, or is the Research Department in a Coma?: The Nitpicking thread", so perhaps it's for the best that I was beat out.)

I'm sure that with a period show like this shot in modern-day NYC we're going to have plenty of classic car nuts, fashion historians and NYC geography experts closely examining the screen to pick out flaws, but there are other nits one can pick besides anachronisms and geography gaffes. The one I have concerns the scene where Sam sees the Twin Towers again for the first time. It's a beautiful, heart wrenching moment, possibly the highlight of the episode, so I almost hate to mention this, but if you think about that whole scene, there's really no way that moment could be the very first time Sam is seeing the towers, as when he first wakes up in 1973 the very first thing he does is stand up and make what looks (as best we can tell from the unfortunately choppy editing & fade cuts) a full 360 degree scan of the entire skyline around him. I know that in many parts of NYC even the World Trade Center can be completely blocked by a closer building or even tree that's in the way, and moving a few steps to the side could bring it back into view, but from that final shot we see Sam's location is so close to the towers and they so dominate the skyline that this doesn't seem to be even a remote possibility (which probably leads to some NYC geography nits about exactly where in Manhattan Sam's location could possibly be, but I'll leave that one to others.

The best fanwank I could come up with to explain this is that as a life-long New Yorker (as evidenced by him rediscovering this favorite childhood record shop) Sam has for the vast majority of his life lived with the sight of the Twin Towers standing there, they're just a natural ingrained part of his mental NYC landscape even now. And when he first wakes up he's clearly disoriented, so in that confused, foggy mental state when he first looks around him, even though his eyes must have inevitably passed over the Towers, his brain doesn't quite register their presence as being "wrong", he's still so used to seeing them there for most of his life.

Edited by TWoP Roxy, Oct 10, 2008 @ 5:24 PM.

[thatguy01]

The producers can only be criticized for inaccuracies in 1973 NYC if it turns out that Sam is an actual time traveler: a living 2008 man transported 35 years into the past.

If this is a product of Sam's mind (insanity, coma, etc), then that excuses any anachronisms. It's Sam's mental creation of Old NYC as remembered from his childhood, television, friends, etc.

If this is Cop Valhalla, then it isn't 1973 NYC and the producers are free to make it any way that suits their story.

[khaosworks]

I believe that the producers have also said that while they're trying to keep historical details true to 1973, the New York we are seeing isn't so much the actual New York City of 1973, but how New York was portrayed in the movies and television of that time.

[HarleyQ]

All right, here's a nit that's just as nitty whether this is real-life 1973, inside Sam's head, or Cop Heaven. There is no way that the 125th precinct would be in Manhattan, as it clearly is. If there was a real 125th (which there is not), it would be somewhere in Staten Island. No Manhattan precinct would ever have a three-digit number. I can certainly understand not wanting to use a real precinct number, but why not choose a one or two digit number which is not in use for a real Manhattan precinct. There are quite a few available: there is no real-life 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 15th or 16th precinct, for example, and choosing any of those numbers would put Sam and Gene's fictional precinct house in the proper geographical location (although you probably wouldn't want to use the "15th" since that was NYPD Blue's fake precinct number). I don't understand why they went with the "125th".

Edited by HarleyQ, Oct 11, 2008 @ 11:26 AM.

[Odac]

The 12th precinct is probably also off limits, having been Barney Miller's old stomping ground. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if *all* the unused two-digit NYPD precinct numbers have already been appropriated by various cop shows & movies over the years (not that there would be any huge problem or mass confusion if they took a precinct number that had been used by some failed police drama that ran for three episodes back in 1979).

And this is one nit that *can't* be explained away as a "clue" that this is all some dream world of Sam's, as we clearly hear Sam's precinct in 2008 identified as the "125th" as well.

[TheLabRat]

not that there would be any huge problem or mass confusion if they took a precinct number that had been used by some failed police drama that ran for three episodes back in 1979

Hell depending on where they decide to go with the "what is really going on" portion of the show, using a precinct number that's already been used on a fictional show could have been a nice touch. If it's all in Sam's head, then fake precinct numbers could have been a clue.

[HarleyQ]

I've been thinking about it, and the only explanation I can think of is that the number 125 will turn out to have some significance. They certainly made a point of mentioning it often enough -- "the old one two five" -- both in the present and the past. And this quote from the Futon Critic interview with the executive producer suggests that there will be numerical clues to Sam's true dilemma:

....we actually came up with that end point of where it's all going to go and so it's pretty fucking - if we do our job right - it will be really shattering and fucking awesome. [Laughs.] And the one thing I'm sure of, even in the pilot, there's like actual clues built into the pilot both through numerology but also images and things. Pay attention to license plates in 2008. Pay attention to addresses, all that stuff. Hopefully in 2015 when we finale, it will all play towards the answers to what's going on with Sam Tyler.

Edited by HarleyQ, Oct 11, 2008 @ 3:36 PM.

[pacejunkie]

anachronism nitpick -- did anyone else think that the phrase "getting her dead on" sounded very 21st century? I just couldn't imagine someone in 1973 saying that, it sounded like modern slang.

[Odac]

Well, it's no doubt based on the phrase "getting your freak on", which sounds like a very 60's era phrase, the same general notion as "letting your freak flag fly". But yeah, something about altering it in that particular way strikes me as the product of a very modern "ironic" sensibility.

[clack]

Isn't 'getting your freak on' a disco-era phrase? ('Chic', maybe?)

[lambertman]

Goldie's not gonna be on Laugh-In tonight. She quit three years ago.

[pacejunkie]

Goldie's not gonna be on Laugh-In tonight. She quit three years ago.

Hmm good catch. A repeat perhaps? Were the earlier ones being syndicated by then?

[Odac]

OK, I realize the everything about the robot is meant to call into question the reality of what Sam is experiancing, which makes any mention of it here particularly dubious thanks to the old "mistake or clue?" quandry, but I thought it worth pointing out that in the toy robot version that Sam finds packed with the heroin was clearly "wrong" for 1973, as it's design is blatently a variaton of the Mars rovers, first designed sometime in the 1990's. An actual toy robot (or even "moon rover") for 1973 would look a bit more fanciful, it would likely look a lot like some piece of equipment from the Apollo program, but there's no way it could so perfectly match something designed 25 years later.

So, anachronism, or clue, that toy definitely does not fit in 1973.

Edited by Odac, Oct 16, 2008 @ 11:34 PM.

[Jacob's Hair Dye]

So, anachronism, or clue, that toy definitely does not fit in 1973.

No it doesn't (and I pointed it out over in the episode thread as well), but it's a play on the show's name. Life on Mars --- Mars rover. It's a theme. Geddit?

[moocher]

Were places that cashed checks called Check Cashing?

There were short-term loan places, with names that included Financial ("Dial Finance" I think was a NYC high interest really short term place) - and places have always cashed checks. But I don't think they were called check cashing stores as early as the early 70s.

aand, I could check, but...

Edited by moocher, Oct 17, 2008 @ 12:09 PM.

[Pansy Potter]

Were places that cashed checks called Check Cashing?

I agree with that nit--my recollection is of the local pawn shop as the source of quick cash for both "innocent bystanders" and villains.

And this nit has nothing to do with 70's accuracy, but how did the badboy in the speedo and all the cops have chase-worthy footwear on while in the swim club?

Edited by Pansy Potter, Oct 17, 2008 @ 8:59 PM.

[Bklyndeb]

The street signs in NYC in 1973 were not white on green.

In fact the boroughs had different street signs

Brooklyn was white on black, Manhattan and Staten Island were black on gold, Queens was blue on white and the Bronx was white on blue.

Edited by Bklyndeb, Oct 17, 2008 @ 10:09 PM.

[dustdevil]

Were places that cashed checks called Check Cashing?

And along those lines, on that same street there was a restaurant with a red-white-green awning called "La Guadalupana". Would there have been many Mexican (family-owned?) restaurants in that part of NYC in 1973?

[Benbenberi]

No, there were very few Mexican restaurants in NYC before the 90s.

There weren't printed awnings like that in 1973 either. That's what stores had signs for.

[magicdog]

Would there have been many Mexican (family-owned?) restaurants in that part of NYC in 1973?

As a lifelong NY'er - I had never known what "Mexican" food was until Taco Bell came to my neighborhood in the early 80's! At the time we associated Mexicans to have been primarily associated with the West (California) and Southwest (from Arizona to Texas).

The Hispanic cultures that predominate NYC would have been Puerto Rican, Cuban and Dominican.

[Odac]

Hey Ray, 1992 called; it says you're not allowed to invent that "____ called, it wants its ____ back" riff for another 20 years or so.

ETA:
Also, Windy's "How cool is *that*?" line sounds like it was born of mid-80's "Valley Girl" Speak at the earliest.

Edited by Odac, Oct 24, 2008 @ 2:08 AM.

[honeybee111]

Yes, I think Windy would have said "How groovy is that?" - which would have been more accurate.

I'm going to nitpick the clothes - it wasn't fashionable to show one's navel in 1973 and most women's clothes were cut much boxier and definitely above the naval - unless it was a genie costume or an actual bikini like the girls on Laugh-In wore. The short-shorts the go-go dancer was wearing seemed very 2000s to me.

[pacejunkie]

I agree the show could be a little better at capturing an authentic 1973 feel. I mean, did every single gay character in that bar (not to mention both the victim and the killer) have to have an identical Village People mustache? I mean, okay some did but every. single. one? It was like a tramp stamp.

I don't know if anyone else here used to watch the Wonder Years but they did a much better job when it came to the costumes, makeup, mannerisms and language. You really believed it was the late sixties/early seventies. I must be a hard thing to do though, particularly when it comes to writing dialogue. You have to somehow forget the past thirty odd years and ask youself what someone from 1973 would say, how they would think, and this is made more complicated by the fact that we are seeing things through the 2008 mind of Sam Tyler.

Edited by pacejunkie, Oct 25, 2008 @ 11:29 PM.

[weezil]

Speaking of Laugh-In, in the second ep when the guy in the bathing suit was released and said he wanted to catch Goldie Hawn on Laugh-In, something seemed wrong. In fact, Goldie had left the show in 1970 (according to IMDB) so at least she wasn't a regular.

And in the third ep when Sam is restraining the gay bashers in the park, he says "Game Over." That might have been in Sam's 2008 vernacular, but they didn't have video games back then so it wouldn't have made much sense to say it to people in 1973.

[ElectricMonk]

Game Over can also apply to sports, so I think he can get away with it.

[Jacob's Hair Dye]

Logistical nitpick: Sam says he tried looking up his parents to figure out where they lived but can't. While maybe a 4 year old Sam might not have known their names (beyond "mom" and "dad") to look them up, a 38/39 year old Sam should know his parents names well enough to be able to locate their utility bills, DMV records and/or listing in the phone book.

[Odac]

They said Tyler's a common name, and I'm sure there'd be loads of them in the NYC telephone directory, if they're even listed in the phone book; if they "moved around a lot" they might well be gone by the time the next phone book was printed with their latest number in it, if they even had a phone if one reason they were constantly on the move was trying to stay one step ahead of the bill collectors & landlords.

And anything besides looking through the phone book would probably require long hours searching through file boxes in records warehouses. Remember, this is back when the closest most people got to a computer was watching a science fiction movie and the Internet wasn't yet even a gleam in Al Gore's eye. I'm sure with his Policeman's access Sam would uncover a paper trail eventually, but if he started in this episode he's only been at it a couple of days so far.

Edited by Odac, Oct 28, 2008 @ 12:10 AM.

[Jacob's Hair Dye]

Warehouses were only used for storing old records. He's "back" in 1973, so his parents would be current users or have current licenses, which means their records would be in this nifty thing called a filing cabinet with folders marked off for each letter.

It'd be one if he said there were way too many "First name here" Tylers, or that they were using different names each time to stay ahead of creditors, but the writers didn't. Just "aw, it's too hard! I can't remember anything about that time because I was 4" - which is lazy writing.

[jmilazzo]

And in the third ep when Sam is restraining the gay bashers in the park, he says "Game Over." That might have been in Sam's 2008 vernacular, but they didn't have video games back then so it wouldn't have made much sense to say it to people in 1973.

Game Over can also apply to sports, so I think he can get away with it.

Is Sam not supposed to remember how he spoke in 2008? If he is supposed to remember, seems like it would take him at least a few months to stop using his own terminology & exclusively use the terminology of the time. I'd have a hard time not using 2008 slang if I were suddenly back in 1973.

Edited by jmilazzo, Oct 28, 2008 @ 3:48 PM.

[K2DangerGirl]

seems like it would take him at least a few months to stop using his own terminology

That's one of my favorite things about the BBC version: When Sam would UK-Version-Mirandize a suspect and the other cops would all say "That's not how it goes!"