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Sally and Bobby Draper: Woman of Destiny and Child of Doom


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#241

Scaramanga

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 10:20 AM

In Ep. 4-1, Sally didn't like Pauline's Thanksgiving food because of some ingredient, and now she's complaining that the tuna salad has relish (which in my opinion, is what makes tuna salad edible). Nice continuity. ;-)


That totally brought back memories for me. I stopped eating tuna sandwiches altogether when I was about seven after having one at my aunt's house. I bit into it, and there was a whole green olive in the tuna salad. It looked like an eyeball, and it freaked me the heck out. I didn't start eating tuna sandwiches again until high school.

Edited by Scaramanga, Apr 9, 2012 @ 10:21 AM.

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#242

SueB

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Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 6:34 PM

I liked Sally & Don's conversation on the phone. Sally really feels comfortable talking to Don about anything and Don did not undermine Betty or Pauline. He gave reasonable advice. Okay, the "Haunted Mansion" comment is negative but it's hard not to see that.
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#243

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 10:55 AM

I always speculated that Sally would go the flower child route, I wonder if this will now be her first foray into drugs.


This was from the Mystery Date thread and it's something I keept thinking about Sally. Drugs aside, it's hard for me to imagine Sally as a flower child. I think because she's always seemed so fascinated and focused on adults I can't imagine her going for the idealized childlike innocent thing. I have at least one friend who was older than Sally and had no patience for that pose. It would be interesting to me to see Sally be cynical about that even if she's going along with a lot of other things. I could see her being more drawn to the darker sides. It seems like Sally's seen adults as flawed but having a freedom and knowledge she covets for a long time and has less interest in being a teenager like the ones at the Stones Concert.
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#244

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 11:51 AM

I'm going out on a limb. Sally is going to survive just fine. Dr Edna gave her the sense of self she needed. Glen as her "spirit guide" helped her to distance her mothers issues from her own issues. Whether or not Glen was creepy or not, she was always more poised and "herself" I felt with him than anyone else during that turbulent time. I see THAT Sally now.

Yes, Sally is a child and is still making mistakes but she's not a fool and I think she is less likely to have the deep-seeded issues that her parent have DESPITE how screwed up her life has been. Maybe I'm totally wrong - it just seems to me she'll know how to draw boundaries her parents didn't.
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#245

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 12:10 PM

I tend to agree with this view (as I've posted before). I don't think Sally is necessarily going to be an LSD-dropping train-wreck of a teenager--though it's possible. Instead I think that from dealing with Betty (and to a lesser extent, Don) and having the help of Dr Edna, she might turn out to be a clear thinker who sees through bullshit and can forge her own path. If anything, I'd expect her to be old beyond her years, which I guess is one reason that hearing her on the phone venting and whining to Don and sounding like a kid actually made me a bit happy.
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#246

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 12:16 PM

I don't see Sally's life as being particularly screwed up. It hasn't been ideal (whose is?), but she's been fed and clothed and loved. She's intelligent, willful, stubborn, and she already has a strong sense of self and what she wants. She's unlikely to be swayed too much by peer pressure. Her parent's wealth means that she will never have to struggle to get an education or to make ends meet. To me, her future looks bright.

Of course, she may get caught up in drug use or become promiscuous and self-destructive or develop an eating disorder, but that's far from inevitable or pre-determined. I don't think Betty is sowing the seeds of her daughter's destruction.
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#247

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Posted Apr 11, 2012 @ 7:45 PM

Well, thus far, aside from what the adults around her have done around/to her, we've seen Sally steal money from her grandfather (and almost let Carla take the blame for it), sneak a cigarette from her mother's pack, call her mother stupid, make inappropriate comments to Joan along the lines of "you have big ones," take a glass of liquor at an office party, heard from the teacher that Sally shoved another kid's face into the spigot of a water fountain after making a rude remark to her first, and ask Paul if he got on top of his girlfriend. Most of which happened when she was 10 or younger. Pretty bratty, one or two of these was childish curiosity, while some was just outright flagrant disrespect deserving of punishment, but it will be interesting to see if she outgrows this behavior or it gets worse.

I never would have said some of the things to an adult that Sally has said/gotten away with saying.

Edited by newyawk, Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:39 AM.

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#248

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:37 AM

Most of which happened when she was 10 or younger. Pretty bratty, one or two of these was childish curiosity, while some was just outright flagrant disrespect deserving of punishment, but it will be interesting to see if she outgrows this behavior or it gets worse.


These incidents took place over a span of several years, not all at once, and most during a time when Sally could tell that something was drastically wrong with her parent's marriage, so that she felt insecure and acted out to make sure that they were still paying attention. Her parents were concerned and she received therapy to help her handle the stress of living with a higly neurotic mother and adapting to a new life that she never had a say in. Dr. Edna did not seem overly concerned about her future, since much of her therapy seemed to be directed at teaching her how to cope with the difficult people in her life, rather than intensive psychotherapy. During the same period, Don reacted to stress by fantasizing about leaving his family and having multiple affairs. To expect children's behaviour to be unaffected by stress while making allowances for adults is a double standard of the time.

I agree that Sally is a sassmouth but don't think that her curiosity about sex, feistiness or mouthiness will inevitably lead to juvenile delinquency, promicuity and unplanned pregnancy, drug use, or any of the other dire fates regularly predicted for her. She has a strong sense of self and there are a lot of stable influences in her life that balance out the disruptive forces: she is loved unconditionally by her father, her stepfather seems to be concerned about her welfare, her parents have the resources to bail her out of trouble, etc. I know many people who have had a much worse start in life and turned out well.
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#249

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:47 AM

I agree with so much of this. Look at JH himself...he didn't have abusive parents like the character he plays, but his parents divorced, his one functional parent...his mother.... died when he was young. I believe he's said before that his father was sort of emotionally not there, yet he had to live with his father after his mother died. Yet he seems pretty well balanced, especially for an actor living in Hollywood. On the show, Sally has a much stronger relationship with Don who as mentioned, does love her unconditionally.

The one I'm worried about is the baby. Maybe because he's the youngest, he'll go the way of the typical happy-go-lucky youngest child, but he's going to grow up having never known his biological parents as a unit, being raised by neurotic Betty and a stepfather who hopefully is a stable influence and only seeing his biological father on alternate weekends. How much time did Don have to bond with Gene the way he's bonded with Sally and Bobby? Gene will probably grow up thinking that the real parenting was done by Henry and that could set the stage for a pretty contentious relationship and a lot of acting out and rebelling, down the road.

Of course by that time, MM will be off the air, so we really don't have to worry about it. :)

Edited by rogaine2233, Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:48 AM.

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#250

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 12:05 PM

The one I'm worried about is the baby. Maybe because he's the youngest, he'll go the way of the typical happy-go-lucky youngest child, but he's going to grow up having never known his biological parents as a unit, being raised by neurotic Betty and a stepfather who hopefully is a stable influence and only seeing his biological father on alternate weekends.


Gene might actually self-identify as an Xer. Strauss, in The Fourth Turning, would classify him as a member of the "13th generation," a cyclical analogue for the famed Lost Generation of dissipated slackers. All three designations have a common thread of following a generation of treasured children (Boomers) but finding themselves neglected during their own formative years. Latchkey kids who would grow up to inherit a depleted, degraded "American Dream."

Like Gene, I happen to be a member of the thirteenth, and I trailed my closest sibling by over half a decade. Even if a marriage is intact, having siblings so much older is basically like having a bunch of co-parents. Less rivalry, and fewer shared memories and experiences. My prognostication for Gene is that he will identify Henry as his primary social father, and that he'll be quite the corker growing up . . . For reasons scarcely related to the Boomer experience or to the divorce.
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#251

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Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 4:27 PM

Dick Clark died today and it got me thinking of one of my favorite shows (especially since it started out in my hometown!!): American Bandstand. Do you suppose Sally Draper watched American Bandstand? I think I'm about 3 years younger than Sally and I loved that show.

We know she watched Mystery Date.

How about:

Where The Action Is
The Flintstones (on prime time TV)
Star Trek (out in 1965 or 66?)


what others?
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#252

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Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 12:10 PM

but he's going to grow up having never known his biological parents as a unit, being raised by neurotic Betty and a stepfather who hopefully is a stable influence and only seeing his biological father on alternate weekends.


Except for the stepfather (we didn't have one), you just described my younger brother, who is tremendously well adjusted and pretty successful. :)
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#253

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 1:42 PM

I really like Sally's relationship with he dad, it's very much like the relationship she had with Betty's dad. Neither of them talk down to her and they treat her, more or less, as an adult. Contrast that with Betty, who is a horrible parent, but that's a whole other issue. I like that her relationship with Glenn is still alive and that they are real friends, that it isn't one of the cliched dating things. I loved the interaction between her and Roger in last night's episode.
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#254

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 2:17 PM

Loved the interaction with Roger and Sally. Maybe Don should take Roger on his next trip to CA and propose since he's so good with the kids.

Sorry..I've made more than my share of snarky comments and digs about Megan and the Megan/Don relationship today. I was just so disappointed in last night's episode and that the good parts of it (for me) were drowned out by the SEE HOW PERFECT MEGAN IS??? parts.

But in general, Roger and Sally? Priceless. Even with the horrible ending.
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#255

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 2:59 PM

I'm curious about the logistics of writing for and acting the Sally part, especially given last night's "indiscretion" from Roger. Kiernan Shipka has apparently said that her parents don't let her watch Mad Men because of the adult content, which I totally agree with. But my question is how they handle some of the logistics of filming, etc. In last night's episode, clearly they could film Kiernan alone, then put in the Roger cuts separately. What did they tell Kiernan happened? Did they tell her that she walked in on Roger and Megan's mom kissing? Do her parents get a full script and then she gets just her own lines to learn? Do the writers have to be particularly careful about how they script a scene so it can be filmed in a child-sensitive way? As a writer, I find myself wanting to know....
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#256

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 4:34 PM

Kiernan is 13 so she has to have SOME knowledge of sex and what it entails. I've read that she is at all the table reads, at least those where she appears in an episode. Hell, I knew about blowjobs when I was 13, so why this would be some huge shock for Kiernan plays into that lame tired old "oh but children are such pure perfect angelic angels who know nothing about sex or sucking cock or eating pussy until it suddenly all drops into their brains they first time they go to a party in college.

Also keep in mind Roger was really getting a blowjob, it's called 'acting.'
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#257

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 5:17 PM

According to IMDb, Kiernan is 12 (birthdate Nov. 10, 1999). Sally is the same age this season (birthdate in May, 1954). Given that

Kiernan Shipka has apparently said that her parents don't let her watch Mad Men because of the adult content,

which I have read as well, I think it's a perfectly natural to be curious as to how that scene was filmed and whether Kiernan read/heard the entire script. She's been mighty precocious and mature for some time, but she is still young.

keep in mind Roger was really getting a blowjob

I think you mistyped "wasn't", correct? ;-)
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#258

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 8:14 PM

Kiernan is 13 so she has to have SOME knowledge of sex and what it entails. I've read that she is at all the table reads, at least those where she appears in an episode. Hell, I knew about blowjobs when I was 13, so why this would be some huge shock for Kiernan plays into that lame tired old "oh but children are such pure perfect angelic angels who know nothing about sex or sucking cock or eating pussy until it suddenly all drops into their brains they first time they go to a party in college.


Kids vary hugely in what they know in the 11-13 age range and it isn't unusual for a kid to know the basic terms but not exactly how it happens. Like a 12 year old could be familiar with the term blow job, but not recognize the specific motion involved.

I assume the producers and her parents veer towards (perhaps unnecessary) protection rather than "Seventh graders already know all this stuff, right?"
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#259

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 8:39 PM

Kiernan is 13 so she has to have SOME knowledge of sex and what it entails. I've read that she is at all the table reads, at least those where she appears in an episode. Hell, I knew about blowjobs when I was 13, so why this would be some huge shock for Kiernan plays into that lame tired old "oh but children are such pure perfect angelic angels who know nothing about sex or sucking cock or eating pussy until it suddenly all drops into their brains they first time they go to a party in college.


Kiernan Shipka is not just some kid running around at a middle school somewhere. She's a well known child actress in an industry that has a long and ongoing history of eating up child actors alive and spitting them out. She works primarily with adults, some of whom probably have their eye on the bottom line or who tend to look on her as a small grown-up and do not regulate their behavior and/or speech around her accordingly.

Nine out of ten former child stars seem to be messed up by their Hollywood days, so for her sake, I hope Kiernan Shipka's parents are keeping her ignorant of a lot of what's happening on screen and for that matter, going on around her on set. I'm assuming they simply shot her reaction shot separately from the scene with Roger and Mme Calvet (whose name I've already forgotten). For all we know they could have told her that she just saw Roger and Mme Calvet kissing and that she was supposed to be deeply disturbed by it. She seems to be a sharp enough actress and that probably would have been sufficient.
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#260

Author By Night

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 8:50 PM

Did they tell her that she walked in on Roger and Megan's mom kissing? Do her parents get a full script and then she gets just her own lines to learn? Do the writers have to be particularly careful about how they script a scene so it can be filmed in a child-sensitive way? As a writer, I find myself wanting to know....


When I was about Kiernan's age, my older cousin read a snippet of an adult novel out loud. At the time, my knowledge of sex was pretty basic. At one point, my cousin stopped reading and said "okay, this part isn't appropriate." I didn't know exactly what happened, but I knew that I wasn't supposed to read any further. Unfortunately, Sally didn't have anyone close the book for her, but I'm assuming that was what happened with Sally. She was just told that her character saw adults doing things even though one was married to someone else, and I think that's enough to work with. In Kiernan's mind it may have even been more about the fact that her step-grandmother was cheating on her step-grandfather with her father's (and stepmother's) boss. I don't think you have to know a lot about sex to know there's something wrong with that - or that stuff like that happens. I mean, I was Sally's age when the whole Bill Clinton scandal was going on; I'm pretty sure I learned more from Monica Lewinsky than I did any sex ed class.


As for Sally's future... I can see her being jaded, but not necessarily a "bad girl" per se. I think she'll be one of those people who obviously grew up too fast, and isn't easy to get or stay close to, but isn't necessarily involved with anything illegal or dangerous.

Edited by Author By Night, Apr 30, 2012 @ 8:51 PM.

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#261

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 6:34 PM

Kiernan's interviews and commentaries demonstrate that she is very astute, precocious, and mature for her age. Certainly, she could simply have been told that Roger and Marie were engaged in a sexual act and that would have been enough to give her to inform her acting. When I was 12 (granted, that was in 1980, so a different time), I knew plenty from a theoretical standpoint, having read novels with fairly explicit sex in them, but it's not like I was telling my parents about that.

Keep in mind, though, that Kiernan filmed "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword", wherein Sally was caught masturbating, when she was 10, so her parents were comfortable enough approaching sexual subjects to go ahead with that.

Do the writers have to be particularly careful about how they script a scene so it can be filmed in a child-sensitive way?


Yes. In the commentary for "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword", they explained a bit about this. In the context of that episode, while there was no problem with the scene where Sally is "playing with herself" (as Betty puts it), they had to alter the scene where the friend's mother confronts Betty about it. Originally, it was written so that Sally is there when the mother tells Betty, but apparently, you can't have adults even mention a sexual act explicitly in the presence of a child on camera so they had to change the script. That actually is less about the child actors and filming situation than about the suggestion that children are involved in something sexual around adults, as a decency standard, but here, it's clear from the camera work that the shots of Sally looking in and of Roger and Marie in the act were probably filmed separately.
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#262

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Posted May 2, 2012 @ 9:04 AM

A quick history of Bobby Draper.
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#263

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Posted May 3, 2012 @ 11:58 AM

I was thinking about Sally's witnessing the oral sex scene in "The Codfish Ball". I was thinking about whether Sally would ever say anything and if so, to whom. I'd love to see her spit it out in an argument with either Megan or Don, but I doubt that would happen. Granted, I'm only an audience of one, but I was 12 in 1969 so I'm only a bit younger than Sally. Maybe I was just really naive, but in 1969, I'm not even sure I really knew what sex was, much less oral sex. If I had walked in on a scene like that, would I have known something was wrong? The horror on Sally's face indicates that she does. Then again, thanks to her mother and father, she's been exposed to a lot of things that many kids her age in that decade were not exposed.

Anyway, even if I did realize there was something horribly wrong with this scene, I'd be inclined to confide in a friend, certainly not my parents. So if Sally says anything, I thinks she'll tell Glen.

ETA: By 1971, I "got" the whole picture. So maybe Sally won't say anything now, but give her a few years to put it into perspective and then maybe she'll throw it back in Megadon's face (if they're still together then.)

Edited by rogaine2233, May 3, 2012 @ 11:59 AM.

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#264

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 12:10 AM

The thing is, whether Sally knows about sex or not, having two younger brothers - especially a younger brother who is much younger, she should know about "girl parts" and "boy parts." She saw what she saw, and she knows to think what Grandma Marie was doing with Roger was gross.
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#265

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 1:34 PM

So maybe Sally won't say anything now, but give her a few years to put it into perspective and then maybe she'll throw it back in Megadon's face (if they're still together then.


Neither Don nor Megan could be held accountable for what Sally saw, so although they'd be upset to find out, she couldn't really throw it in their faces. Letting a twelve year old make a trip to the bathroom on her own in a respectable hotel would not be considered negligent parenting in the sixties. (I wouldn't consider it negligent today, but I don't live in the United States and I understand that attitudes and conditions may be different there.)

This is the second time Sally has opened the wrong door on her way to the bathroom and seen something she didn't want to see. Either she's got an exceptionally poor sense of direction or she needs glasses.
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#266

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 2:26 PM

This is the second time Sally has opened the wrong door on her way to the bathroom

Actually, Don opened the door in Ep. 5-1, so at least he and/or Megan thought to lock it, but he could have arranged the sheets more discreetly before getting out of bed. Or were you thinking of another scene?

Either she's got an exceptionally poor sense of direction or she needs glasses.

Maybe she was looking for that darned staircase at the Codfish Ball. :-)
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#267

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 7:21 PM

Hi All, first time poster, very long time lurker! :)
After watching At the Codfish Ball, I was really stuck by Sally (reason why I decided to bite the bullet and register!)
I was struck by two things: the first being that I was reading a biography of Jackie Kennedy and was stuck about how much Sally’s childhood reflects that of Jackie (especially her relationships with her parents, though her relationship with Betty seems to be changing slightly), I was literally reading the book and was like “This sounds like Sally Draper” and I wonder if Sally is going to be a significant figure, like Jackie. (Especially since Henry is in politics)
The second thing that struck me was how cultured she will be as an adult - she will (I am assuming here) she will earn how to speak Italian (though Betty) and French (through Megan) and how she has the best of ‘both’ worlds- the conservative part (Betty and Henry) and the (lack of a better word) ‘fun’ part through Don and Megan- the swanky Manhattan city life (though after this episode, not so sure!).
I also find it interesting that her parents’ divorce has opened her world and I find really interesting the impact her step grandmothers are going to have on her.
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#268

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 7:39 PM

I was thinking something similar, Stainsby girl. Even though I imagine she'd prefer that her parents had stayed married, Sally's life has opened up considerably and she may grow up with political connections and academic advantages, assuming that both her parents' second marriages last. And Megan is chic and modern with a bit of European flair. I wonder if Sally will take to either politics or the arts. Or maybe just rebel and do her own thing.
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#269

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 7:43 PM

I don't think there's any reason Sally will speak either Italian or French. She converses in English with both Betty and Megan. She might pick up a few phrases from Megan in French, but probably even less than she'd get in a high school class. I think she'll continue to be a fairly normal suburban girl like she's been so far (though of course there's a lot about her and her life already that isn't very "normal").
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#270

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 9:43 PM

Agree with you stainsbygirl, Sally has exposure to both Betty's European experience and Megan's bilingual skills, plus seems to have a dramatic flair. Maybe she will opt to live with Don and go to one of the Manhattan high schools that offer courses taught in European languages and exchange student programs. French was still really popular in NYC then, maybe partly due to the Jackie Kennedy example, but also because the UN relied on French as the language of diplomats and girls were considered "finished" if they could speak it.

There seems to be an expectation or maybe a fear that Sally is going to go off the rails, but she's presented as quite bright and I think it's just as likely that she's going to tap into all her opportunities and get her wings.
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