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#7021

Tiamat

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 9:59 PM

Thanks shmoombi, I didn't even notice Castle's clothing.

Is Demming going to be gone next season? I hope not, I like to see BSG alumni working.
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#7022

Fate3

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:03 PM

I think Castle cares about her a lot as a friend.

His relationships with other woman in the second half of this season have been those of someone who either doesn't care about her romantically or is too immature to settle down to one woman even if he does care about her.


I totally agree. I found it interesting that as soon as she is looking like she might have someone else, Castle suddenly cares. But he still had no problem hooking up with her friend. Not to mention hooking up with all of the other women throughout the season. The minute that Beckett has someone, suddenly, Castle wants her? And interestingly enough, the minute Castle has another woman in his orbit - again - his interest in Beckett is gone.

I think Castle just can't stand that Beckett's attention wasn't solely on him anymore. That he didn't have dibs on her attention, that she wasn't there in the wings if he wanted her, while he banged other women on the side and did whatever the heck he wanted.

The sad thing is, Beckett does lose out. But the good thing is, now she knows Castle for what he is, and will know that she was right all along: he's a world class Ass when it comes to women, and the only woman he will ever really treat with respect and decency, is his mother and his daughter.

I was never a shipper for these two, I enjoyed the show as a whole, but this last episode just topped a season of making Castle look like a complete dick. They could have written this much better, IMO. I get that they don't want to get these characters together, and I'm fine with that, but this toying along just does nothing but damage the integrity of the characters and the show. All this "we're gonna ship them, but we're not" crap just makes Castle look like a dick whom I want to slap and makes me want Beckett away from him. Writing the ending this way was less about angst, and more about idiocy of writer's not just manning up and saying "we don't want them together, so we're not going to get them together now, if ever" and instead, writing stupid shit that makes the characters look stupid.

What a shame. This show was so enjoyable, and yet they had to put a sour note in it with crappy writing.

Edited by Fate3, May 19, 2010 @ 10:05 PM.

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#7023

moonmarked2

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:08 PM

how can you state as fact that Gina is "deliberately hurting" Beckett on Castle's behalf?

That was moonmarked2's speculation not mine.

Actually, what I said was:

Three: Gina knows, intuitively or directly from Castle, that Castle has feelings for Beckett that are not being returned; their erotic energy seems to be clear to folks that see them interact for the first time, so Gina picking up on it and poking Beckett about it seems reasonable. Perhaps Gina is on Castle's side, and volunteered to go to the Hamptons with Castle not so much to get him to move on, but at least to move away from a source of pain. Gina came across as being competitive with Beckett around Gina's access to Castle that Beckett does not have and presumably does not want--I see many exes take sides in situations like that, and it does not mean that Gina wants to renew a sexual or romantic relationship with Castle. It might mean that she's acting out the pissiness that Castle can;t or won't.

I am not sure where I speculated that Gina wanted to "deliberately hurt" Beckett; at best, I wondered if she was acting out some of Castle's frustration, but that still doesn't suggest that I think Gina was trying to hurt Beckett with any deliberation.
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#7024

talea

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:11 PM

No, it's very clear that when Castle is answering Alexis, he is speaking of Gina (or at least, anyone other than Beckett). That was very obvious to me. I didn't understand why there was any confusion on talea's part.


It's not so obvious to ME, which is why I asked, so please explain where you get that. I really want to know (although if you could dial down the "you're so stupid" innuendo, I'd sure appreciate it. After all, we all love this show so we're all pretty much on the same side -- mostly.)

As TMS said, I wasn't referring to the first conversation that Alexis and her dad had when she informed him she had gotten accepted into Princeton at the beginning of the show: I was referring to what he said to her toward the end of the show when he went to pick her up to take her to Princeton and she was pulling out all her suitcases. She said something to the effect of "are you going to be OK to be alone for so long" and he said something to the effect of "I invited someone, she said no but I hope to change her mind." He had told Beckett when he left to take Alexis to Princeton that he would return for his "surprise" goodbye party.

OK, so what you're saying is that THIS someone referred to in the later conversation was NOT Beckett, whom he had already invited several times, but was indeed Gina and you know that for a fact. But I didn't hear any dialogue in the show that told me that.

So please share how you know this for a fact and clear up the confusion.


ETA: I had read over this comment of yours:

Again, pretty clearly, he asked Gina after Beckett says no. There is no place in the 'verse where he'd ask them both out to the Hamptons.


But, in fact (as you're fond of saying), he DID ask both of them out to the Hamptons. That's in the show. We're just trying to figure out the timeline.

Edited by talea, May 19, 2010 @ 10:40 PM.

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#7025

mathhater

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:22 PM

I wonder how Beckett will be next season. I think she is someone who is very guarded about being in a relationship and was badly hurt some time ago-I might be crazy but I swear that was touched on once in the show-so I can just imagine how, by letting her guard down and letting go of that mistrust only to have it be for nought is going to change her, make her more closed off, more unwilling to do that again. Demming, I believe, won her over by being kind and considerate and seemed to take being with her seriously-he was genuinely upset when she broke things off. He's the one that had that romantic dinner with the candles at the station. He was courting her and paying attention to only her, unlike Castle who slept with Ellie and will probably sleep with Gina too while being interested in Beckett.

Bottom line-she chose the wrong guy. I am beginning to think that Castle was the catalyst for Beckett to find someone who will be there just for her with no games and no extra-curricular sex activities. And that was what makes Demming look like a prince and why her leaving him for Castle hurts my heart.

You could argue that if Beckett really wanted to be with Castle then why start things with Demming. Well, she knows about Castle's ways and knew about his fling with Ellie and probably thought "He's not ready yet or isn't interested in me anyway." I wish the C/B ship had ended right there. That way she could have had Demming and Castle with the banter still in place because the pressure is off. It won't be going anywhere. Plus she didn't fully realize that he was interested in her until it was pointed out-wish it hadn't happened now-would have saved her a ton of heartbreak.

I think the character of Castle has been assassinated a bit, no a lot. And because TPTB chose to go this dramatic "exploration of feelings" coupled with Castle's total regression the show lost it's fun and lightness and made Beckett and Castle unable to reach that place again. Now it's just another procedural with more added conflict, which frankly Castle isn't designed for creatively. I watched for the witty wisecracks, not this.

And a big, fat word, Fate3.

Edited by mathhater, May 19, 2010 @ 10:27 PM.

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#7026

talea

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:31 PM

On the grander scheme of things, after about a day and a half of pure outrage at the writers choosing this particularly sour note on which to kick off a four-month hiatus, I have moved on to honest curiosity and I'm joining Danny Franks and the other, like, two people in this camp in anticipating season 3 to see how they play out Castle's return to working with the team and what kind of dynamic he and Beckett settle into and I still very much care about how and when they get together. I love this show too much to continue taking the events of this episode personally. If this make me heartless, so be it.


Oh, there are lot more than four of you, Niuxita. It only took me a good night's sleep, so I was on that train by 9 a.m. today. After all, you can't erase the writers' choices (I still maintain they could have done better, but it's over). I am looking forward to how they pull the fat out of the fire. And am confident that they will.
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#7027

moonmarked2

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:39 PM

Continuing to clarify what I have stated, janex said:

A lot [of] people on this board are women so a lot of peope see Castle from Beckett point of view, like moonmarked2 said.

I have no idea whether there are more men or women writing about Castle at TWOP, and in fact, never discussed the boards at TWOP at all; rather I've been interested in how folks in general have identified with Beckett rather than Castle in the final minutes of the finale episode. I can't imagine suggesting that this identification is gender-based; in part because I don't think gender accounts for everything and also because I can appreciate the diversity of experiences that both women and men have and that inform what we identify with and how. And, as I have argued, I think this is evidence of writer's craft.

I consider this as Writers laziness, wouldn't you say that, from a writer's point of view?

No.

To expand on that just a bit, I've already said that I am impressed with the writing (as well as the acting, editing, and direction) that together conspired to allow for so many people to have significant identification with the Beckett character such that the accusation of a cliche ridden final minutes of the finale are based on trite cliches themselves: fight cliche with cliche, as it were. Not everyone is so tightly invested in the identification, but we're all aware of how it is creating debate around the meaning of those last few minutes for Beckett--and Castle. Because at least some of the identification with Beckett is balanced by disidentification with Castle; and some of the identification with Beckett is buoyed by identification with Castle. The tension that we as viewers create as we try to make sense of events is what good storytelling is all about.

I tend to have faith in the writers; they've done me well for most of the season so I expect them to do well in the future. Writer laziness? Not agreeing with what someone has done does not make them lazy; first I have to see whether I am balking at stretching my own mind and expanding my interpretation of what the script might be saying. Only if I can safely and surely claim that I am not being lazy might I start to search out if there's someone else being lazy.

I do believe in "remaining good friends"( meself is one example), but I have never come across someone who would spend a holiday with expartner without the intention or hope to see if things will workout between them again.

True story: Two friends, who had once been in a long-term relationship but had broken up several years before, continued to live in the same apartment because neither were wiling to give up their rent-controlled well-located Manhattan home; they both dated other folks while staying close friends and room mates before settling into long-term relationships with other folks (and now sublet said rent-controlled apartment). While an anecdote does not a data set make, having different life experiences is part of what makes it possible to have different readings and interpretations of the same events that we see on screen.

Edited by moonmarked2, May 19, 2010 @ 10:52 PM.

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#7028

Sara2009

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:40 PM

I don't think Castle only became interested in Beckett once she wasn't available. IMO, we've seen his feelings for her all along. She's his muse after all, and as Esposito noted, he hasn't been following her around all this time just for research purposes.

Jealousy over another love interest is a standard television trope, but I don't think that invalidates the romantic feelings.
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#7029

statsgirl

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:46 PM

Do I want to see how the writers try to pull the fat out of the fire? Yes, in a disinterested way to see what they come up with rather than the excited way I have watched the show up to now. Am I confident that they can? Not any more. The honeymoon is over.

Tiamat, Michael Trucco has his own show, Facing Kate, with Sara Shahi coming out next season, a male/female flirty detective show in competition with Castle & Beckett.

The idea of Castle coming full circle to his old wardrobe is interesting, shmoombi, especially in light that some of us interpreted the end as Castle going back to his old ways.

I don't think Castle only became interested in Beckett once she wasn't available. IMO, we've seen his feelings for her all along. She's his muse after all, and as Esposito noted, he hasn't been following her around all this time just for research purposes.


But he did take her for granted until Demming showed an interest in her. He seemed surprised by Demming asking him if it was okay to make a play for her. When the newspaper linked him with Beckett, it would have been the perfect time to ask her out to see if there was something there but he jumped at the chance of Bachelorette #3 instead. Then he moved on to Ellie. So that asks the question, why did he start sleeping with Ellie when he wanted Beckett?

moonmarked2 - It might mean that she's acting out the pissiness that Castle can;t or won't....
When Gina unexpectedly runs into Beckett at the station, she throws out a ton of double entendres meant to penalize Beckett


I was replying to what moonmarked2 was speculating about Gina's motivations, that Gina was trying to act out anger / penalize Beckett for what she thought Beckett was doing. If it's okay with Castle that Gina acts out his pissiness in private, that's Castle's concern (and a matter for him and his therapist). But it is not acceptable for her to act pissy towards Beckett or try to penalize (hurt?) her when she doesn't know Beckett and doesn't know the whole story. It wouldn't be even if Gina and Castle were back in a relationship much less at this point in their lives.

Since we don't know the real story behind Gina showing up, everything is just speculation. I'm personally hoping that the whole 'we reconnected and now we're BFF' is the "it's not what it seems" of the episode not because I personal dislike Gina or because it couldn't happen to a different couple in real life but because it's incredibly lazy writing to pull a 180 like that just to justify Castle showing Beckett that he's taking Gina to the Hamptons for the whole summer.

capnkidd, if you saw Gina in Castle's 'she said no but I'm hoping to change her mind', you're better at guessing the show than I am because at that point, all we had seen is Castle avoiding Gina. If I talked about someone the way Castle had talked about Gina for two seasons, I wouldn't invite him/her to be in the same country as I am much less sharing a house a deux for four months.

how is spending the summer with someone you don't like "winning"?


If he thinks that spending the summer with Gina is losing, why did he ask her to come? Having her there must be winning in some sense for him. He doesn't need her to write, he'd written a string of best sellers before he hooked up with her.

OK, here you're just wrong. You are not looking at this objectively, and va32h is.


Other of his/her statements may be debatable but I think the scene at the end of Food To Die For showed that Beckett was the one to first accept that the flirting isn't going to lead anywhere and she moved on to Demming, unlike va32h's scenario.

Edited by statsgirl, May 19, 2010 @ 10:58 PM.

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#7030

Sara2009

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 10:55 PM

When Gina showed up at the end, I thought it was obvious she was the woman Castle had been trying to convince to go to the Hamptons.
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#7031

capnkidd

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 11:12 PM

It's not so obvious to ME, which is why I asked, so please explain where you get that. I really want to know (although if you could dial down the "you're so stupid" innuendo, I'd sure appreciate it. After all, we all love this show so we're all pretty much on the same side -- mostly.)


We aren't on the same side, and I'm sorry you feel that my opposite stance delegates you as stupid, for that surely is not my intent.

OK, so what you're saying is that THIS someone referred to in the later conversation was NOT Beckett, whom he had already invited several times, but was indeed Gina and you know that for a fact. But I didn't hear any dialogue in the show that told me that.

So please share how you know this for a fact and clear up the confusion.


I never said I knew it for a fact. I said it was obvious to me, and in fact, to use the phrase, I wouldn't have guessed Gina. I just knew he wasn't going alone, and he wasn't going with Beckett. She said no, and no, and hell no, I lied to you but I'm taking my time off at the beach with Demming. While I don't watch a lot of television, I understand show arcs and how a season finale often works. It was an educated guess - which turned out to be correct. I also knew from the very beginning of the show that the spy thing was a game, but I never mentioned that ;)

Again, pretty clearly, he asked Gina after Beckett says no. There is no place in the 'verse where he'd ask them both out to the Hamptons.

But, in fact (as you're fond of saying), he DID ask both of them out to the Hamptons. That's in the show. We're just trying to figure out the timeline.


Okay, figure out the timeline, and I'll parse this more carefully. Do you honestly think he would have asked Beckett to the Hamptons if he'd already asked Gina? No, I don't know it for a fact, but I'm pretty sure (again, an educated guess) that he wouldn't. Do you?

capnkidd, if you saw Gina in Castle's 'she said no but I'm hoping to change her mind', you're better at guessing the show than I am because at that point, all we had seen is Castle avoiding Gina. If I talked about someone the way Castle had talked about Gina for two seasons, I wouldn't invite him/her to be in the same country as I am much less sharing a house a deux for four months.


Your standards are simply different. It's already been demonstrated that other people deal differently with these things than you do. There's nothing wrong with that.

If it's okay with Castle that Gina acts out his pissiness in private, that's Castle's concern (and a matter for him and his therapist). But it is not acceptable for her to act pissy towards Beckett or try to penalize (hurt?) her when she doesn't know Beckett and doesn't know the whole story


Gina's behavior is Gina's behavior, not Castle's, we don't know that her behavior is acceptable to him, regardless of his reaction or lack thereof, we don't know what Gina knows, and since when do we know Castle has a therapist?

If he thinks that spending the summer with Gina is losing, why did he ask her to come? Having her there must be winning in some sense for him. He doesn't need her to write, he'd written a string of best sellers before he hooked up with her.


He's damaged goods. Anyone's company is preferable to being alone.

Edited by capnkidd, May 20, 2010 @ 12:20 AM.

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#7032

Morrolan

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 11:25 PM

I totally agree. I found it interesting that as soon as she is looking like she might have someone else, Castle suddenly cares. But he still had no problem hooking up with her friend. Not to mention hooking up with all of the other women throughout the season. The minute that Beckett has someone, suddenly, Castle wants her?


All what women? As has been pointed out he's hooked with very few women during the course of the series contrary to his image. Beckett had given no signs beyond simple flirty banter that she was interested in a relationship with him. IIRC she lambasted him for the going out with the eligible bachelorette.

As for suddenly wanting Beckett you don't think its possible that seeing Beckett with another man would bring his actual feelings for her to the surface?

And interestingly enough, the minute Castle has another woman in his orbit - again - his interest in Beckett is gone.

His interest in her isn't gone, he thinks she's with Demming and has accepted that thats who she wants which is actually the mature thing to do.

I think the character of Castle has been assassinated a bit, no a lot. And because TPTB chose to go this
dramatic "exploration of feelings" coupled with Castle's total regression the show lost it's fun and lightness and made Beckett and Castle unable to reach that place again. Now it's just another procedural with more added conflict, which frankly Castle isn't designed for creatively. I watched for the witty wisecracks, not this.

Why can't they return to the witty banter in S3? Presumably they'll move past Gina and resume it just like they did after the bust up at the end of s1.

I tend to have faith in the writers; they've done me well for most of the season so I expect them to do well in the future. Writer laziness? Not agreeing with what someone has done does not make them lazy;

Using a cliched roadblock is somewhat lazy.

But he did take her for granted until Demming showed an interest in her. He seemed surprised by Demming asking him if it was okay to make a play for her. When the newspaper linked him with Beckett, it would have been the perfect time to ask her out to see if there was something there but he jumped at the chance of Bachelorette #3 instead. Then he moved on to Ellie. So that asks the question, why did he start sleeping with Ellie when he wanted Beckett?

Because she hadn't showed interest in him romantically, because he hadn't realised the depth of his feelings. Why should Beckett have waited for Castle to make a move?
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#7033

moonmarked2

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 11:40 PM

When Gina unexpectedly runs into Beckett at the station, she throws out a ton of double entendres meant to penalize Beckett...

I was replying to what moonmarked2 was speculating about Gina's motivations, that Gina was trying to act out anger / penalize Beckett for what she thought Beckett was doing.

Maybe it's a misunderstanding of why I chose to phrase my speculation about Gina;s actions as double entendres? A DE isn't a deliberate act by definition--you say something that might have two or more meanings knowing that the other party will pick it up the one that is meaningful--perhaps both or all meanings, but you have offered a DE so that you don't have to actually take responsibility for what you have said. So in my interpretation, Gina's actions can't be deliberately meant to hurt. If Beckett is hurt, it's because she is accessing her own emotions about the situation--no one makes you feel hurt in the end anyways.

I also don't equate pissiness with anger and I think it's reasonable for Gina to know lots about Beckett and Castle's working relationship and possibly even Castle's interest in Beckett--again, everyone who meets them wonders what's up between them--and to act them out for him because that is what human beings do. It may be conscious it may be unconscious but we tend to protect our friends, and that's pretty much all I see Gina doing and there's no need for her or Castle to go to therapy over. No more than I think I should go to therapy for putting down Castle and reversing everything I've thought about hm this season because I think he was disrespectful towards Beckett and hurt her feelings. So if it turns out that my speculation is indeed what motivated Gina I'd see no need to judge her harshly. It was an awkward moment, we see that Beckett begins the interaction by questioning why Gina and Castle would spend time together to Gina's face--I'd get pissy about that, too, cause Beckett obviously doesn't know the entire story. The underlying tension is that Beckett doesn't know enough about Gina and Castle's relationship to each other, but Gina certainly seems to know more about Castle's relationship to Beckett. That's where the needling of each other night be coming from.
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#7034

S7W9C2

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 12:20 AM

I haven't paid much attention to the Hawaii 5-0 remake. It's not my kind of show but was wondering if there was a lot of buzz around it? I ask because CBS has moved CSI: Miami to Sunday's and will put Hawaii 5-0 up against Castle.
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#7035

janex

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 12:37 AM

ok, I'm trying to work out the time line when Castle asked Bechett and Gina to Hampton, correct me if I'm wrong:

Thur: Castle asked Beckett to Hampton, twice? Beckett didn't give him the answer, Castle refused Gina's calls;

Thur night: poker game, Castle decided to bail out from the cases;

Fri: Castle told Beckett that it was his last case when he heard B/D's plan for the weekend.

Fri afterwork: Castle was ready to take Alexis and told her that there might be someone coming with him to Hampton;

Fri night, farewell party, Gina showed up at the station.

So that put Gina's phone call on Thur night.

Buy why? Why did Castle ring Gina back and invited her while Beckett has not said no to Castle and Castle did not know C/D's weekend plan yet?
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#7036

statsgirl

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 12:46 AM

janex, it's possible that Castle called Gina back on Friday afternoon after he heard about Beckett's plan with Demming and invited her for the summer then. But it's still ridiculously contrived writing and makes Castle seem needy that as soon as he sees that Beckett has plans with Demming, he needs a woman of his own for the summer.

Why should Beckett have waited for Castle to make a move?


The reason she was hesitating in because she thought he was a good-time guy, someone who, as she said in FTDF, would light up her world and then move on, leaving her behind. She didn't want that, she wanted a relationship with some longterm potential. That's why she didn't get back together with Sorenson when he was based in NY, because she knew he would move on again.

If Castle had given any indication that he might be willing to be in it for the long haul, Beckett might have made a move herself. Instead, he kept reinforcing the idea that he wasn't into serious relationships again (e.g. in One Man's Treasure when he said the problem was two wives too many).

Why can't they return to the witty banter in S3? Presumably they'll move past Gina and resume it just like they did after the bust up at the end of s1.


I don't know about other people but for me, it's because I won't believe it any more. Castle is not the person who I thought he was and so the banter that was so much fun for two seasons will ring hollow now.
(I don't quite know how to explain it but it's like the character of Owen Hunt on Grey's Anatomy. A big pull for his character last season was that here at last was a person who understood and appreciated Cristina Yang. This season he's been shown to do neither, much of the appeal of the character is now gone and many people who were fervent Hunt/Yang shippers last year are hoping that she will dump his sorry ass.)

since when do we know Castle has a therapist?


We don't. But if he's willing to let someone else act out his feelings because he can't cope with them or express them on his own, then he needs one. That's unhealthy.

While I don't watch a lot of television, I write. I understand show arcs and how a season finale often works.


You're a writer and you approached it from the standpoint of the mechanics of writing. I'm a psychologist and approached it from the standpoint of what we know at this point of Castle, Gina, and their relationship. In terms of the structure of writing a TV show, you anticipated that he would be taking Gina to the Hamptons. In terms of who the characters had been presented to be, it came out of nowhere. Maybe it is true that Castle is so broken that anyone's company, even that of a person he seems to have hated up to now, is preferable to being alone but we've never been given any indication that he is. He's fine being "famously fatherless", he's fine with Martha's quirks, with his lifestyle and his interest in women. As far as we can see, he's not pining for anything. If Castle is "damaged goods", then the writers should have told us that he was by now.

That's why moonmarked2's scenario rings false to me in terms of who Castle and Gina have been shown to be. Not because they are exes and exes don't act like that but because of what we have been told about who Castle and Gina are.

Interestingly, Michael Trucco's new show is about exes who work together and end up sleeping together. I don't expect him to talk about her the way Castle talks about Gina, though.

A DE isn't a deliberate act by definition--you say something that might have two or more meanings knowing that the other party will pick it up the one that is meaningful


A definition of double entendre: A double entendre is a figure of speech in which a spoken phrase is devised to be understood in either of two ways. Often the first meaning is straightforward, while the second meaning is less so: often risqué, inappropriate, or ironic. It is often used to express potentially offensive opinions without the risks of explicitly doing so.

The double entendre is very useful when you wish to be offensive while appearing to be innocent. The hidden meaning doesn't have to hit an emotional chord, often intelligent people will get the meaning even when it doesn't apply to them.

Saying something which has multiple meanings so that the person will pick up the one that is meaningful to him/her is a projective test. It should be left to trained professionals, who are also ethically forbidden to use it in social circumstances and never without the permission of the other person to do so. (Sorry if I sound passionate but as you describe Gina using it, it was an invasion of Beckett's privacy and it's been drilled into us repeatedly never to do that.)

Edited by statsgirl, May 20, 2010 @ 1:02 AM.

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#7037

janex

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:05 AM

it's possible that Castle called Gina back on Friday afternoon after he heard about Beckett's plan with Demming and invited her for the summer then

Did I hear Castle or Gina saying they talked all night or something like that? If it was Friday Castle made call to Gina then the invitation is more sudden and out of no where.

it's still ridiculously contrived writing and makes Castle seem needy that as soon as he sees that Beckett has plans with Demming, he needs a woman of his own for the summer.


Absolutely.

I'm willing to give Castle the character and the writers the benefit of the doubt, let us just assume that the writers had all the reasons that moonmarked2speculated in mind. I'll try to remind myself that Castle forgot to mention that he did respect some of the qualities Gina has, if I do that, I'm ok with the ending, :).
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#7038

statsgirl

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:07 AM

Castle said that he and Gina talked for hours, presumably on Thursday night. I'm fanwanking a conversation on Friday afternoon where he called her up and asked her to the Hamptons after Beckett had made plans with Demming just because nothing else seems to fit.
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#7039

capnkidd

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:17 AM

since when do we know Castle has a therapist?

We don't. But if he's willing to let someone else act out his feelings because he can't cope with them or express them on his own, then he needs one. That's unhealthy.


We don't know that Gina is acting out Castle's feelings. Or that he's willing to let her do so. That's supposition.

While I don't watch a lot of television, I write. I understand show arcs and how a season finale often works.

You're a writer and you approached it from the standpoint of the mechanics of writing. I'm a psychologist and approached it from the standpoint of what we know at this point of Castle, Gina, and their relationship. In terms of the structure of writing a TV show, you anticipated that he would be taking Gina to the Hamptons. In terms of who the characters had been presented to be, it came out of nowhere. Maybe it is true that Castle is so broken that anyone's company, even that of a person he seems to have hated up to now, is preferable to being alone but we've never been given any indication that he is. He's fine being "famously fatherless", he's fine with Martha's quirks, with his lifestyle and his interest in women. As far as we can see, he's not pining for anything. If Castle is "damaged goods", then the writers should have told us that he was by now.


It's a television show. When Beckett said no, essentially three times (or at least he had to ask her three times), I knew he was taking someone else. I didn't know it was going to be Gina, but I knew it would be someone other than Beckett. When have we ever seen him alone? I don't believe that he's fine with being famously fatherless, but it's something he has to live with - and honestly, as a psychologist, you should see that the writers have telegraphed from a million miles away that Castle is damaged goods, that he has never had a healthy relationship, excepting perhaps, the one with his daughter - and maybe Beckett, in the future.
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#7040

moonmarked2

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:34 AM

A DE isn't a deliberate act by definition--you say something that might have two or more meanings knowing that the other party will pick it up the one that is meaningful--perhaps both or all meanings, but you have offered a DE so that you don't have to actually take responsibility for what you have said.


The double entendre is very useful when you wish to be offensive while appearing to be innocent.

Saying something which has multiple meanings so that the person will pick up the one that is meaningful to him/her is a projective test and should be left to trained professionals, who are also ethically forbidden to use it in social circumstances.

If my original quote had not been cut off, it would seem that we are in agreement that DEs are used to to directly--or indirectly-say something needling which may or may not be picked up by the intended listener. That's where the word "potentially" come in. We're not talking about projective tests, though, we're talking about regular old loaded communication in heightened emotional situation with folks who are trying to figure out what the relationships between them might be. DEs are also used to mask vulnerability as much as offense, and the liberal use of DE in this show all season long bears me out.

I agree, thought, that there can be a high level of passive aggressive behavior when using DEs, but between Beckett and Gina was a relatively mild needling and there was no way for Gina to know that her needling would hurt or in which way it might hurt Beckett, which is why I'd argue that she wasn't deliberately trying to hurt Beckett in flinging DEs around but rather attempting to see what Beckett's reaction would be. My speculation has been pretty consistent that Gina may have been trying to see how her DEs affected Beckett as a way of gauging Beckett's interest in Castle.

And I dunno, Castle is not the boss of Gina; if she in fact is acting out his projected emotions, she's the one that needs to work it out. There is no evidence that Castle can't cope with this emotions or express them on his own, and speculating about Gina shouldn't involve rewriting what we know about Castle.

I didn't know it was going to be Gina, but I knew it would be someone other than Beckett.

Not only did I suspect it would be someone else, I did wonder whether it would be Gina: we know she kept calling and that Castle was reluctant to return her calls and it seemed reasonable that he when he finally called her--after the poker game and his realizations about his relationship with Beckett and the precinct--which he came to prodded by his poker buddies--would make him particularly open to approaching his conversation with Gina in a different way than he would have in the beginning of the episode.

Is it possible that Castle simply asked Gina to come to the Hamptons during the convo Thursday night, and she said she would think about it? That fits with his telling Alexis that he had asked someone and was waiting for an answer, as well as Castle already accepting that Beckett had pretty much had already said no, wasn't changing her mind, and subsequently feeling hurt that she had not been honest with him about having not just plans with Demming, but being "together" with Demming in a way that meant that she wasn't available to go away for the weekend with Castle.
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#7041

mandigirl

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:42 AM

Glad to see people still gnawing over the Final Five. I doubt the writers thought it would create that much controversy. The opinions and perspectives have been very interesting.

I haven't paid much attention to the Hawaii 5-0 remake. It's not my kind of show but was wondering if there was a lot of buzz around it? I ask because CBS has moved CSI: Miami to Sunday's and will put Hawaii 5-0 up against Castle.

Yeah, I saw that. I'm a little concerned because I think CBS is right in the viewer bases for the two shows are probably going to overlap a good bit. I know I will be DVRing it. It stars Alex O'Loughlin, Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park so it's also going to be hitting up a very diverse fan base (Moonlight, Lost and BSG respectively). While Castle is obviously going to have 2 years on it, Hawaii-5-0 is a remake so ostensibly it should have instant name recognition and perhaps even a built-in audience (old fans of the show).

Never watched the old one myself so I'm just tuning in because of the cast. I hope it doesn't impact Castle too much. I imagine Hawaii will have the same viewers as CSI Miami but I'm concerned that it will also get a slice of Castle's younger crowd too (because of Alex. Moonlight has some very. loyal. fans and the show looks fun actually.)

I know Law and Order got cancelled by NBC and it was the other show at 10pm on Mondays. Anyone know what crapfest NBC is replacing it with because that will be Castle's competition as well...

Edited by mandigirl, May 20, 2010 @ 1:42 AM.

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#7042

Sara2009

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:49 AM

I think it's obvious that Castle is somewhat damaged goods. I don't think he's miserable, but I do think we're slowly being shown that he wants more than just meaningless flings for the rest of his life.

I also definitely think Castle isn't as okay with his unnamed father as he puts on.
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#7043

capnkidd

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:51 AM

Law & Order might not be cancelled.

Is it possible that Castle simply asked Gina to come to the Hamptons during the convo Thursday night, and she said she would think about it? That fits with his telling Alexis that he had asked someone and was waiting for an answer, as well as Castle already accepting that Beckett had pretty much had already said no, wasn't changing her mind, and subsequently feeling hurt that she had not been honest with him about having not just plans with Demming, but being "together" with Demming in a way that meant that she wasn't available to go away for the weekend with Castle.


Yes.
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#7044

Sara2009

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 1:55 AM

I would also like to point out that other than a few pissy remarks from Castle(that were mostly made in jest IMO), we really don't know anything about his former relationship with Gina. We don't know why exactly they got together in the first place, and we also don't know how or why their marriage fell apart. Because of all this, I can't yet claim that Castle inviting her to the Hamptons is implausible.
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#7045

janex

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 6:34 AM

I would also like to point out that other than a few pissy remarks from Castle(that were mostly made in jest IMO), we really don't know anything about his former relationship with Gina. We don't know why exactly they got together in the first place, and we also don't know how or why their marriage fell apart. Because of all this, I can't yet claim that Castle inviting her to the Hamptons is implausible

It's true we don't know anything about Castle's relationship with Gina, we only know Castle's feelings/comments about her, which was all negative. How could you invite someone who you have such ill feelings towards to spend the Summer together (moonmarked2, your story about two exes living together and seeing other people is different, that is out of convinience) ? Help me understand it. One phone call, all is good? I simply don't buy that. But if you say Castle is so damaged that when can't get Beckett he grabs any person with boobs then I believe you. The more I think about it the more I think Castle and Beckett don't belong to each other, their views(more precisely, their behaviour or action, because we really don't know Castle's view, only his behaviour) of relationships are so different that I see no common grounds for both of them to stand on. Now, I'm ok for Beckett to move on and seek other good looking/smart/caring/considerate guy to hang out with while Castle get himself a therepist to work on his fatherless issues ( I always emphasised in my earlier posts that this issue is more profound and serious than what he let us audience know).

but between Beckett and Gina was a relatively mild needling and there was no way for Gina to know that her needling would hurt or in which way it might hurt Beckett, which is why I'd argue that she wasn't deliberately trying to hurt Beckett in flinging DEs around but rather attempting to see what Beckett's reaction would be. My speculation has been pretty consistent that Gina may have been trying to see how her DEs affected Beckett as a way of gauging Beckett's interest in Castle.


I don't think Gina intentionallly wanted to hurt Beckett, in fact, I don't think Beckett would be hurt by Gina. Beckett was diappointed because she thought Castle's invitation to Hamptons was still open and she was going to tell him how she feels about him and maybe she'd like to accept the invitation to go to Hamptons with him..........and all of the sudden, Gina showed up, she had no idea Castle would invite Gina because like she said "I thought you two weren't getting along", so she was shocked...........and so were a lot of us.

Edited by janex, May 20, 2010 @ 6:40 AM.

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#7046

nike75

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 6:36 AM

janex, I think your timeline is slightly wrong.

Castle knows about Beckett's and Demming's plans before the poker game night and he decides to take a break then - hence the beautiful scene between Beckett and Esposito "so, Castle's last case, hm?"

So the talk on the phone with Gina is after he decides to put distance between him and Beckett.

I also can understand how Castle and Gina after a long long talk (they talked for hours! and I don't think it was just smalltalk) decided that maybe spending the summer together is a good idea. IMO this isn't immature - on contrary, I see it as Castle being ready to really deal with the baggage he has in regard of Gina. And she lays the focus on him finishing the book way more than anything else.
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#7047

mig991

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 6:37 AM

I haven't paid much attention to the Hawaii 5-0 remake. It's not my kind of show but was wondering if there was a lot of buzz around it? I ask because CBS has moved CSI: Miami to Sunday's and will put Hawaii 5-0 up against Castle.


No idea about how successful it will be, but having seen Alex O' in a few things now, he is possibly the worst actor that continues to be employed. As far as the competition, according to NBC's fall schedule it will be the latest Jerry Bruckheimer contribution to the decline of western civilization The Chase. Here is the link, http://www.nbc.com/chase/ I would worry about this one as JB has a good idea of what the masses want. Personally it looks as lame as all his other stuff, but I have never been a fan of his type of shows or movies.

On another note, not sure how many people here visit Castletv.net, but after the debacle that was the last 2 minutes of the finale, I posted that Andrew Marlowe should stick to show running and not writing. As imho he really screwed up the whole dynamic of the show with his script. I said simply "AM please leave the heavy lifting on this show to Will Bealle and Terri Edda-Miller". who in my opinion write the best Castle episodes. This post was removed by Admin because apparently only praise is allowed there. The irony is the ABC site is filled with anger and vitriol about the ep and it is not being removed. Done venting.

Edited by mig991, May 20, 2010 @ 6:39 AM.

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#7048

Akela

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 7:03 AM

God, this is so pissing me off.
Why, oh why do they have to do the "will they or won't they"-storyline. I so don't care. They can be just friends or they can hook up, both will make for great TV as long as they get back to the buddy-dynamics and the clever banter. But him making sad eyes at her, then her breaking up with her boyfriend just shortly before he hooks up with someone else.... I've seen better writing on "The Bold and the Beautiful"... This case had so much potential, but instead we had to watch this.
Gah, gah, gah!
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#7049

talea

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 8:16 AM

I also can understand how Castle and Gina after a long long talk (they talked for hours! and I don't think it was just smalltalk) decided that maybe spending the summer together is a good idea. IMO this isn't immature - on contrary, I see it as Castle being ready to really deal with the baggage he has in regard of Gina. And she lays the focus on him finishing the book way more than anything else.


I can see this. After all, when Castle introduced her at the station after the goodbye party, "you remember my ex-wife, don't you?" Gina added, "AND his publisher." So clearly that is one of her prime goals at the moment.

Yes, I knew from spoilers that Gina was going to be in the episode. When she hadn't appeared in the first 41 minutes, it was pretty obvious she would in the last two on her way to the Hamptons with Castle.

But my opinion that it was a lazy writer's contrivance/cliche to bring back the beautiful ex-wife still stands. For the most part, Castle writers have avoided these. This time they didn't.

I'm not a die-hard shipper; if they don't get together, that's OK. If they do, that's OK, too. I did not expect the two to be together by the end of this season, would have been just as disappointed if they had been, and I'm not sure they'll be together by the end of season 3. I still think the two have a lot of growing to do.

But, ultimately, I just want the writing to continue to be fresh and inventive.

I did take a spin back through the "back nine" of the episode to get more clear on the timeline. Apparently, the phone call with Gina took place after the poker game, which was the night before everybody went off somewhere for the weekend. Then he was talking to someone the next day (Friday) while Beckett was telling the captain about how the case turned out; I couldn't catch all the words, but something to the effect of "we can work it out." So now knowing the end, it probably was Gina; then his final conversation with Alexis where he tells her he hoped someone would change her mind and say yes.

He couldn't have been referring to Beckett, at that point, because he made it quite clear at the poker table the night before that he thought he had gotten all he could out of that relationship (I first took that as posturing to cover up his hurt before the guys and to save face, not that he was really giving up at that point). My guess is Gina called him late just to get him to pick up the phone and he finally answered. Then the "talking for hours."

Speculation time:

My guess now is that Castle and Gina could clear up their baggage over the summer, get the book done, maybe have a final fling (and I don't mean that perjoratively -- sometimes you just gotta have an ending with an ex to move on) and that would set up Castle to re-enter Beckett's life. He had been uncharacteristically hostile about Gina (he's normally a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of guy), so clearly something's unresolved. She may very well reappear next season. And because she's his editor, she may well be the catalyst in recognizing that his writing about Nikki Heat is showing feelings for Beckett. It's one way to go.

The tricky question is: will Kate reclose her shell and never open it again?

BTW, wasn't that a great scene when the car dealership guy admitted he actually had been in bed with his partner's (the dead guy's) wife? Nathan and Stana's reactions were a total kick as was the actor's sheepish nod to Nathan's: "So your alibi for the murder is that you were .... doing his wife?"

And did anyone else catch at the crime scene in the beginning where Esposito lent Kate a helping hand down the slope to the body? Shows again that those two have a special friendship beyond boss/employee.

Also if you haven't watched the show again on abc.com with Andrew Marlowe's commentary, he expounds a lot on the coffee stuff. Clearly who brought whom coffee throughout the episode -- and the reaction takes from Beckett and Castle -- was carefully scripted to indicate that Castle was beginning to pull away from Beckett -- and she noticed. So did he. Wonderful acting on both their parts.
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#7050

Danny Franks

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Posted May 20, 2010 @ 9:28 AM

My guess now is that Castle and Gina could clear up their baggage over the summer, get the book done, maybe have a final fling (and I don't mean that perjoratively -- sometimes you just gotta have an ending with an ex to move on) and that would set up Castle to re-enter Beckett's life. He had been uncharacteristically hostile about Gina (he's normally a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of guy), so clearly something's unresolved. She may very well reappear next season. And because she's his editor, she may well be the catalyst in recognizing that his writing about Nikki Heat is showing feelings for Beckett. It's one way to go.


I agree with you completely, that he has unresolved feelings for Gina. A lot of bitterness that he's never demonstrated towards anyone else, even the wife who left him for another man, and sent divorce papers in the post. He gets on well enough with her. But Gina? He's made several references to her being unpleasant, cold, grasping and whatever else. Clearly she wasn't just those things, or he never would have hired a hot air balloon and proposed to her. There were obviously good times. He needs to deal with his feelings about her, so he can remember her without focusing solely on the negative things.

The writers have told us in interviews that this will be something they explore. At first the implication seemed to be that it would be in this episode, but clearly not. So, we come back next season with him either having dealt with those feelings, and exposits the fact out to Martha or Alexis, or she's still around, and they're still working through their issues. Depends on whether the writers think having her in the season opener might turn people off. Either way, he can't really move on to another mature relationship without that closure. We don't know what went wrong, but it clearly has had a significant effect on the way he views marriage. Unless he faces it, he'll never be ready for what Beckett wants

The tricky question is: will Kate reclose her shell and never open it again?


I'm up in the air about this. On the one hand, it's clearly what we'd all expect her to do, knowing Kate Beckett as we do. She gets hurt, she puts up her walls, and won't let anyone get close. It would be interesting next season, because we'd see Castle having to win her over again, but this time, her reservations are far more personal. She won't just be impatient with the boisterous writer she's been saddled with, she'll be dealing with the man who hurt her, however unwittingly. Castle would have to really start taking some risks with her, just to get their friendship back, before anything more could develop.

But, on the other hand, she's grown a lot since the pilot, opened up in ways she probably never expected. A major part of it is Castle, but we've seen how important her colleagues are to her, and she won't tune them out completely. She also still sounded hopeful when she asked if he'd be back in the fall, so perhaps she will still be receptive to him when he does come back. I'm not saying she'd welcome him with open arms, but it may not be quite as difficult for him to get back on her good side as we imagine. Especially if Gina isn't a factor.

I just get the thought that Marlowe wants to show some 'Beckett pining for Castle' stuff, similar to how Castle was about Demming. But the opportunities are going to be much more scarce, because it's not like she might see Castle and Gina together in the precinct. If they do go that route, hopefully it'll be brief. Like, two episodes brief.

I also wonder if they're going to do something different with his book. Will it just be the same pulp fiction smash as the rest of his work? Or will it perhaps be more personal, somehow, that he's put more of his hopes and fears into it than he intended to. And if so, will Beckett notice? I can almost imagine Martha making a crack that it's not so much Naked Heat as Naked Castle.

Or maybe it'll be bad. He's so out of sync with his creative process that the book stinks, or is just below par, it gets panned by the critics and he has to look at himself to figure out why. I don't know, I'd just like them to do something new with it.
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