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Professor River Song: Archaeologist!


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#271

angora

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Posted Oct 17, 2011 @ 6:53 AM

Also, from her perspective, just because she's meeting Ten for the first time, she doesn't know that he's meeting her for the first time. For all she knew, there were plenty more Ten adventures to come. After all, River's first time with Eleven (LKH) wasn't his first time with her (TToA/FaS).
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#272

ErgoPropterHoc

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Posted Oct 18, 2011 @ 10:47 PM

Points. I need one of those Doctor/River flowcharts for my wall...it'd still keep me up all night, but in some hope of getting it straight!

On a less time-travelly note, definitely agree with [some speculation out there, somewhere] that River is pregnant in AGMGtW. The Doctor is absolutely the flabbergasted/gleeful father-to-be, in that final scene.
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#273

Deaner

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Posted Oct 20, 2011 @ 12:57 AM

Oh, goodness. I don't know if I want a Doctor/River baby. (Though I wouldn't object to seeing more Matt Smith and baby scenes.) I thought that his glee was just over the fact that Amy and Rory's baby didn't grow up to hate him, that something must have happened so that he could save her and not let his best friends down.

On a different note, this brilliant River timeline from her perspective (narrated by Alex) was shown in the last Confidential: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=v8UQsa7dtS0
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#274

darkestboy

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Posted Oct 22, 2011 @ 10:07 AM

I know the answer - no Doctor/River baby. A step too far IMO.
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#275

Peplow146

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Posted Feb 16, 2012 @ 3:43 PM

why does she call herself a "psychopath"?. What did they expect after the silence tore her from loving parents and royally messed with her head?. Not funny to mock the mentally ill. Or say they are "ok" when some trauma affects people for the rest of their life.

Contrast this with 5.10 Vincent and the Doctor. Depression which blighted his life and led to his suicide is portrayed in a sensitive way. Ironic he wanted to marry Amy and have a big family with her. Meldoy/River could have been born half artist instead of half nurse/centurian!.

Alos lets look at Amy she had one night of fishfingers and custard and was sent to 4 different therapists. Assuming River is ill why is she not in a secure hospital instead of prision ?. Imagine August and Tabithas reaction to their grandaughter!.

Finally why is she in prison in the 51st century for a 21st century crime?. She should be in a facility in Utah where the "crime" took place. That way her parents could at least phone or visit to have some contact. Hope to see more in S7.
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#276

xtreme

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Posted Apr 4, 2012 @ 7:05 AM

Presumably the prison is part of the future Doctor maintaining a stabalised timeline. Besides it's obvious that River only really uses the Stormcage as a combination Safehouse and Mailing Address.
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#277

Peplow146

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Posted Apr 5, 2012 @ 8:15 AM

I just think as a character she deserve better storylines and continuity. Like the way the doctor has dismissed her degree as "idle gossip". She worked hard for that. The only reason she did it was to try find him and help him in the first place.

Got a bad feeling about S7. Think their relationship will end in tears. If the weeping angels get her in New York.
Either that or the loss of one or both parents is too much for her.
Would love to see her have one final confrontation with Kavarian though.

Punches her in the nose stunning her. Then gets her handcuffs out. Followed by "You're going to prison do not pass go do not collect 200".
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#278

darkestboy

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 7:25 AM

We all know that River's fate is the Library and according to Moffat, it's an unavoidable one. I think we will see River in Series 7 but with Amy/Rory leaving and the main bullet points of River's storyline covered, the emphasis is going to be more on moving away from that element of the series.
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#279

Peplow146

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Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 8:29 AM

Looking back I just don't get some of the stuff going on in their relationship and how it ends.
River says the worst day of her life will be when she sees "her" doctor but he doesn't remember her and she's scared it will kill her. 10 wasn't her doctor it was before he regenerated into 11 met Amy and the rest is history.
Plus it is not a straight line going forwards or back. The whole thing is all wonky. He saw her end and begin which really can mess with your head. Her whole life ,death and beyond revolve around him.

Then there was CAL who River adopts after "dying" where was her biological mother and siblings?. Mr Lux was her adult nephew who did it all for the family. CAL deleted the computor version of her father and Luxs grandfather. What will happen if River says or does something she doesn't like ?. Also why create Ella and Joshua ?. If she allready had brothers or sisters she wouldn't need freinds too. I would not want to spend my "after life" anywhere without my family. What about Amy and Rorys souls when they die ?. She was happy being put in a place where her husband the love of her life will never be able to return to visit or go when he eventully "dies".Eternity is a long time.

Would River really be happy to still be doing jail time in S7 and for however many more years while her husband galivants around the universe with a new "freind"?. That is emotional infidelity even if he doesn't have a physical relationship with the new girl.
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#280

Ysu

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Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 10:30 AM

Looking back I just don't get some of the stuff going on in their relationship and how it ends.

It is not such a big mystery. Moffat explained it in the series and in the Confidentials as well.

River says the worst day of her life will be when she sees "her" doctor but he doesn't remember her and she's scared it will kill her. 10 wasn't her doctor it was before he regenerated into 11 met Amy and the rest is history.


Well, the Doctor is the _Doctor_. Even if River calls 11 _her_ Doctor, she knows well that 10 is the same person, only with a different face. Just younger. She seems to realize his real age behind the different personalities, and even though 11 is a very young version if the Doctor, for River, he looks older than 10. (Matt Smith plays him so well, he actually seems older for me, too.) Anyway, when 10 doesn't recognize her, it really destroys her just like she feared it.

If she allready had brothers or sisters she wouldn't need freinds too.

Well, everybody needs friends. Siblings aren't replacing friends and friends aren't replacing family. These are two separates things in a person's life, both of them are important. From the story's point of view it is irrevelant what happened with CAL's mom and siblings and why the computer created the two children for Donna.

I would not want to spend my "after life" anywhere without my family. What about Amy and Rorys souls when they die ?. She was happy being put in a place where her husband the love of her life will never be able to return to visit or go when he eventully "dies".Eternity is a long time.

I understand where do you come from, but with all respect, this story isn't about you. River is not you, she is a different person, with different likes, dislikes, connections, ethics etc from us. The things that are important for me or you, may not be important for Moffat or one of his characters. I usually try to put together a charachter's motivations based on what I see on screen, and not based on my own motivations. In a situation like that, probably I wouldn't be so happy to spend eternity in the computer. But I don't have problem to believ, River would be ok in that situation. She knows she died, and she knows she died protecting the Doctor. Cal probably can tell her her mission was successful. Since she is dead, and she knows it, everything that comes after that is a gift that is not to be questionedShe is lucky enough to have some friends around (who are also dead), she is surrounded with books and history (must be interesting for her, that's why she became archeologist), she has company to share her stories about the Doctor. The scenes we see her at the end may be dull for us, but we cannot be sure if they are dull for her, too. But even if it is dull, she has enough knowledge about technologies to be able to reprogram Cal's world anytime, to make it more interesting.
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#281

darkestboy

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 7:08 AM

The more I watch Series 6, the more obvious it is the main bullet points of River's storyline have been told so apart from one or two appearance I presume in Series 7, I have a feeling the show is probably going to move on from her now.
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#282

Peplow146

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 3:39 AM

Can't help but feel she has been neglected by both her husband and parents. Thet are able to carry on with life as "normal" while she sits in jail cooling her heels untill her next "date night" with hubby.Why exactly is she in storm cage anyway ?. She is not there for punishment or rehabilitation because she needs neither. Doctor even told her she is "allways and completley forgiven". Damn right she is. She never chose any of this. Silence took her childhood and are still screwing up her adult life. Kavarian got away with her crimes and her "victim" Melody gets punished instead. What messed up kind of logic is that ?.Also why wait for an offical "pardon" she is part time lord and married to the last full time lord. They answer to no higher power because there isn't one.Doctor has confronted generals ,emperors and presidents in his time and he is scared of the warden of storm cage ?. Could easily march in there with his father in law aka the last centurian and demand her immediate and permenent release.

There is also the emotional impact. As medical proffesionals Doctor and Rory should know the last thing she needs after all she has been through is to be isolated and locked up. One does not normally break back into a prison cell. Isn't that more likely to cause suspicion and alert the silence anyway repeated escapes and returns?.Tardis and unverse are big places. She could go somewhere a lot nicer and more comfortable. Dorium Maldovore " And Doctor Song locked up for the rest of her days ?" Doctor "Her days yes but her nights well thats between her and me"
Right so he treats her more like a unpaid prostitute then an actual "wife". She deserves more then half a life and half a marriage. He shows her the wonders of the universe, makes love to her then just drops her back untill next time. How can he not feel sad and guilty every time that happens?. Also what the hell are Amy and Rory doing ?.
Some families fight and campaign for years to get relatives wrongly imprisioned free from jail.
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#283

darkestboy

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 7:21 AM

What are you getting at? Unpaid prostitute - that's completely ridiculous and how have her parents really failed her? Amy and Rory tried to get her back in their own way but couldn't due to River's history being a fixed point. Peplow, most of your posts seem to be entirely off base in relation to the character and the story arc.

River gave up her remaining regenerations in order to save the Doctor, so at a guess, she's actually human now with maybe the faintest/non existent bits of Time Lord DNA left in her.
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#284

Peplow146

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 10:44 AM

Yes she is mostly human and her time lord DNA might be inactive now but she still has the brain and instincts of a time lord. I was just trying to get how she is being treated as character by her on screen family and the writers.
Why turn her into a "wife" and "daughter" if she is only going to be around part time ?.

Ok lets asssume she is released from prison. She never even lives with her own husband. Said "my" house not "our" house. She gets one last romantic night with the doctor then goes to her death. Their whole relationship has been built on paradoxes ,secrets and lies.

Amy, Rory and Melody/River herself had a right to know the truth about the events of the library but the doctor will never tell them. Guess we will just see a totally different kind of heartbreak for the Pond family.
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#285

darkestboy

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Posted May 1, 2012 @ 1:57 PM

One of the reasons why the Doctor and River are an interesting couple is because they're not a conventional one. I don't want to see them being a conventional couple, it's boring to watch and there's enough fanfic out there that proves that point too.

River's had a sucky luck but that blame is on Kovarian and the Silence. The Doctor, Amy and Rory have done the best they can for her and vice versa IMO.

Also, I like that she appears part time, she works best as a character who pops up every now and then rather than a regular. It also adds another unconventional facet to her and the Doctor too.
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#286

Peplow146

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Posted May 5, 2012 @ 11:20 AM

Assume we see her later in S7 and she is actully sent to her "death" by the man she loves and trusts.
He knows he can't save her physical body so he does the next best thing.

River reallly did earn her superhero stripes that day. Not only did she save 10's life she also rescued all the people stuck in CALs hard drive.Sacrificed everything for him.

Must have been listening when her mum told her to brave as a baby. She was allways going to go down fighting.
Her dad is the last centurian after all.

Thought she looked pretty and allmost angelic in her white outfit too.She would probably liked to have had children of her own with her husband but circumstances were against her. At least she got to adopt CAl , Ella and Joshua.

Doctor will never know another person like her.
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#287

darkestboy

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 7:55 AM

I disagree. River is unique in some ways but the Doctor meets plenty of extraordinary people in his travels and travels with them, so even if he doesn't meet another River, he will meet pretty extraordinary people in his wake.

None of us know whether or not River wanted kids and to be honest, the one thing we don't need is another child plot on the show in the same vein as the River one we had.

Edited by darkestboy, May 6, 2012 @ 7:56 AM.

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#288

HauntedBathroom

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Posted May 6, 2012 @ 4:26 PM

Assume we see her later in S7 and she is actully sent to her "death" by the man she loves and trusts.
He knows he can't save her physical body so he does the next best thing.


Didn't we already see that scene in the extras of the season 6 boxset?
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#289

Peplow146

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Posted May 9, 2012 @ 8:35 AM

Just been thinking something 6.7 AGMGTW River proudly tells Rory (who didn't know he is her dad at that point)
The Doctor got Stevie Wonder to sing for one of her birthdays.

Did he actully get a song written for her on another "date" ?. He does have all of time and space.
Righteous brothers released "Unchained Melody" sometime in the 1950's. Used in the film Ghost in 1990 and covered by quite a few artists since then.

Just wondered if teh songs lyrics were a coincidence. They sing about "Lonely Rivers" and waiting for someone to come home. Also use the expresion "my love" which is Rivers other pet name for her husband apart from "sweetie".
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#290

darkestboy

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 2:12 PM

I doubt it. It's a nice theory but just a coincidence really to be honest.

There's a song called Moon Rivers as well but I'm sure that isn't connected to a certain lady either.
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#291

Peplow146

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 8:19 AM

"I lie all the time have too,knowing you were my mother pretending not to recognise the space suit in florida".
S6 involved "rewind days" she had to relive the worst moments of her life and couldn't do anything about it.
How sucky is that?. Going through that crap wasn't bad enough the first time round. Imagine her as a little girl reading files with her name and her parents names on it plus she had a photo of her mother holding her in the orphanage.

Plus I think he (the doctor of course) set her a bas example just because he lies it doesn't mean she had too.
How much off her life was wasted running and hiding ?. She even had to change her name or at least translate it to cover her real identity.

Amy and Rory got her back only to lose her again. Least Kavarian was upfront about why she wanted her and what she was going to use her for.Doctor is now her next of kin. He is resposible for her and what will happen to her in the future.
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#292

darkestboy

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 8:28 AM

Um, River is an adult. She is responsible for herself to a large extent. I don't think the Doctor should be responsible for a grown woman who can makes her own decisions and look after herself. She's an adult now, not a child.
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#293

Peplow146

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 11:44 AM

Yes she is but that's not the point. Point is he is her husband part of his "job" is to take care of her and protect her even from herself.

She trusts him and so does her parents. Think of the words at their wedding ceremony "I consent and freely give".
Amy and Rory gave her to him as a precious gift.
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#294

Molly McFly

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 12:32 PM

Yes she is but that's not the point. Point is he is her husband part of his "job" is to take care of her and protect her even from herself.

She trusts him and so does her parents. Think of the words at their wedding ceremony "I consent and freely give".
Amy and Rory gave her to him as a precious gift.


I find it pretty offensive to state that a character like River, whose defining characteristics have always been that she is thoroughly independent and willful and beholden to no one, and can in many ways be considered the dominant partner in her romantic relationship, to the extent that she calls the Doctor and he comes when she calls, needs to be a) taken care of and b) protected from herself by her husband. Also quite offensive to state that an adult woman who clearly made her own decisions leading to the events of the season 6 finale could or would be bound by whether or not her parents (who did not raise her and who do not have a parent/child relationship with her) consented to her marriage. The Doctor may have balked if Amy and Rory had not agreed to "consent and freely give" their daughter's hand in marriage, but do you really think River would have given up at that? She would quite likely have told the Doctor, Amy, and Rory that she didn't need anyone else's consent to marry whomever she chose.

Amy and Rory's relationship with the Doctor is the cause of River being kidnapped at birth and so on, but that doesn't make him responsible for the person she grew up to be, in the sense of being held accountable for her actions or in any other way. Nor is he responsible for her actions because of his relationship with her. River is a grown woman and to suggest that someone else should be held accountable for her actions simply because he is her husband is to suggest that she, as a woman, cannot be held accountable for her own actions. I have my issues with the show's depiction of women, but I sincerely doubt that they were trying to imply with the Doctor/River romance that the husbands and parents of adult women are in some way more responsible for their actions than are the women themselves.
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#295

darkestboy

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Posted May 16, 2012 @ 2:06 PM

River is a grown woman capable of making her own decisions and looking after herself. The Doctor may be her husband and Amy/Rory are her parents but at the end of the day apart from being in her life and being supportive, River is more than capable enough of looking after herself. She's not a gift to be given away either.
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#296

Peplow146

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Posted May 17, 2012 @ 11:06 AM

I just don't get why she a keeps returning to a prison cell and b is content to wait for her husband to show up when it is convenient for him.

Reminds me of the greek tale of Persephine who spent half her life in the underworld and half her life on earth.
River claims she hates fairytales but in a weird way she is living one. Except her "prince" uses a magic blue box and not a white horse when he comes to visit.

Finally gains her freedom only to have to make the ultimate sacrifice in the library.
Would have just liked it if 11 had fought harder for her or even at least tried to make her situation better.

She said on her wedding day there was only two options marriage or death not knowing she would die before her husband.
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#297

Molly McFly

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Posted May 17, 2012 @ 11:19 AM

I just don't get why she a keeps returning to a prison cell and b is content to wait for her husband to show up when it is convenient for him.


I personally did not love the way that season 6 wrapped up, but River's constant returns to prison are explained in story. For Kovarian/the Silence/anyone else they're allied with to stop hunting the Doctor, they have to believe that they succeeded in making his death a fixed point in time. That required River's sacrifice; a sacrifice she made not just for the Doctor but so that time would return to its normal flow and all of creation would benefit. Her maintaining the illusion that she is serving out a sentence is part of that sacrifice. Besides, from what I've seen of the show, River manages to escape on her own; she doesn't need the Doctor to bust her out of prison in Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, for instance, nor did she need him to help her escape in A Good Man Goes To War. That suggests to me that River can and does escape regularly for her own purposes and without waiting around for the Doctor to help or need her.

She said on her wedding day there was only two options marriage or death not knowing she would die before her husband.


Since River has already willingly sacrificed her regenerations to save the Doctor, and he is a full Time Lord with seemingly unlimited regenerations, I think she knows that she would die before him.
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#298

darkestboy

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Posted May 19, 2012 @ 3:26 PM

Stormcage is basically a holiday camp for River with the ways she manages to break in and out of the place. I don't think things are that bad for her now. As a child, hell yes but not as much as an adult. It might be tough to maintain a pretence but it isn't destroying her either though.
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#299

Peplow146

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 8:35 AM

Compare the person we saw in the library on the last day of her mortal "life" with the person we saw in S6. Do they match ?.

River has revered to herself as "psychopath" but she is compassionate in the library betwen flirting with and teasing 10 she does care about the people she was working with and who fall victim to the vesta nerada.
Harsh Sherlock only described himself as a "high functioning sociopath".
Why would Mr Lux hire an ex con anyway ?. Assuming they still do backround checks and asks for refrences in the future.S6 River shows no mercy because she never recieved any from Kavarian and the silence. She only cares about her husband and parents. Told her tormentor she could only ever love one man the doctor.

Still think she has scars and emotional damage.11 said too much foreknowledge is dangerous but he has known how her life and their marriage ends for years, Also said knowing the future can help you change it. Still think it will be too little too late.He couldn't fix her past and he can't change the future.

River herself said she should have known something was wrong when he gave her the screwdriver.Their whole relationship was based on the fact she had to die in the right time and place.Cynical people could argue she was used and manipulted by 11. He knew how much she loved him but she still had to endure prison ,death and resurection.
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#300

snowflakey

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Posted May 22, 2012 @ 8:33 AM

Compare the person we saw in the library on the last day of her mortal "life" with the person we saw in S6. Do they match ?.


Chalk it up to character evolution, only we are seeing it in reverse in her case. There is a sense that River and the Doctor have several unseen adventures, dates, whatever you want to call them. When we first meet River, she's had a whole lifetime of experiences with The Doctor. Each time the Doctor (and the audience) runs across her, she's a little less like the Library River and more like Crazy Melody.
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