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Jon & Kate Plus 8


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#2251

Lewanne

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 6:16 PM

My suspicion about bagelgate, based on how things seem to operate in Gosselinland, is that Alexis asked for a bagel. No one paid attention to her because other chaos was ensuing. Alexis asked again. No one answered her. She started up her chant, getting louder and louder until she finally had a parent's attention. Said parent sends her to the corner for being loud and repeating a request. The "she'd already eaten" excuse is then voiced later in interview, when there's the realization that they need a reason why Alexis wasn't given a bagel when she first asked. I think this is why we never see a parent answer her. We never see her told "no," told why she can't have a bagel, or be told not to ask again. We just see Alexis doing her chant until it reaches a level that catches parental attention


Excellent assessment. She was totally being ignored during these increasing chants. Even if she KNEW the "Don't ask for anything twice" rule, I don't think you can fault her for thinking she wasn't heard the first several times. IIRC, the first time she was answered was the time she was sent to time out. The "She's already eaten" excuse doesn't fly. We all have hungry and not so hungry days. You don't parade food in front of a child who can't have any, but proceed to give it to their siblings. You are just setting yourself up for fights and sibling rivalry. If, for whatever unknown reason, Kate was so intent and unbending on only having the twins have bagels, then wait until the tups are in for their 3 hour nap, don't stand there in the kitchen buttering them when the tups are looking on. Common Sense 101.

#2252

Natalie Ann

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 6:41 PM

Kate admitted that most people wouldn't understand the way she and Jon speak to each other, but it is understood by them, that it is preferable to stressing out on the kids

Except that I see Kate stressing out on the kids all the time.

#2253

Bob Sacamano

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 6:48 PM

Sorry to go off track, and possibly covering something that was already discussed (no way I can read all of this!) but I was watching the episode where Alexis (I think) and Collin had their "days," and when Kate was describing Collin's, she made some comment, kind of wink-wink, about Collin making his wife "very happy" some day. She's not talking about...you know...is she? My wife says she is, but it just seems unlike Kate, not to mention really disturbing.

#2254

affirmed

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:15 PM

Collin making his wife "very happy"

I would think that Kate meant because Collin likes to help out stuff away and can help pick up he won't annoy his wife by being a slob. Wasn't he the one who helped put the picnic tables away when they were in the driveway? And Collin likes to put things away and line things up in an orderly manner.

And I am glad Jon made the joke about Collin's head shape. I could never tell Collin and Joel apart but now, thanks to Collin's head shape, I can! And Collin and his stubborn streak is my favorite. Alexis and her siren voice, not so much.

#2255

carried away

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:15 PM

she made some comment, kind of wink-wink, about Collin making his wife "very happy" some day.

I think she was referring to the fact that he likes to help out a lot. She's mentioned it several times on the show. I can't really remember the details of that episode though, but I doubt it was about the "other" thing. That would just be too bizarre. Even more bizarre than Kate usually is, I mean ;)

Edited by carried away, Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:16 PM.


#2256

sewwicked

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:20 PM

What gets me about BagelGate and GumGate is when Kate says, "But they *know* that they can't ask for things twice or have gum." For Pete's sake, they are barely 4 yrs old and she expects them to A) remember the rules and B) follow them every time. Not many 4 yr olds (and I think they were 3 at time) would have the self control to say, "No, my mommy says no gum" when their aunt is holding a big, beautiful gumball machine, filled with all those pretty, pretty colors. Or, in the case of BagelGate, the 4 yr old is still hungry and smells a delicious bagel that her two sisters are happily wolfing down....and no one is responding to her when she says "I want a bagel."

I'm not saying give into them, but don't go postal on them either. "Guys, you know you aren't suppose to chew gum. I am very disappointed that you forgot the rules. I need to make sure Aunt Jodi knows the rule. Lying is wrong. etc. Now you have to help me get the gum out of all the clothes." Use a stern voice, but don't go postal. For the bagel, get down on Alexis' eye level, "You may not have a bagel. You may not repeatedly ask for things. If you ask again, you will go to the corner. If you are still hungry, you may have X." See Kate, it isn't hard. Yes, it takes longer at first, but is more effective in the long run.

Kate is rapidly losing control of those children. Pretty soon they will figure out that they don't *have* to go the corner. What will Kate do then?

#2257

Bob Sacamano

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:35 PM

What most got me about GumGate was how two-faced she was in dealing with Jodi. She seemed like she could have killed Jodi when at first, and then called her on the phone and put on her best victim act. It's interesting to see Kate interact with her many helpers.

Edited by Bob Sacamano, Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:36 PM.


#2258

MunchkinManJon

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:50 PM

Kate is rapidly losing control of those children. Pretty soon they will figure out that they don't *have* to go the corner. What will Kate do then?

I feel that the "time outs" or going to the corner is simply a banishment from Kate's presence and attention, not really a disciplinary action. If the tup left the corner, or hide in the closet there to play, (maybe Jon keeps his stash there, in the closet) I don't think anyone would notice, just so they are out of Kate's face. Discipline requires education along with it to teach a child the right behavior, IMO. Banishment to the corner simply gets the problem out of Kate's hair. (Maybe that's where her hair goes wrong, the "dead possum" look requires too many kids in it!) She is then allowed to leave the child there as long as she feels like it, to the point of forgetting that the child has been banished.

I totally agree that soon the tups will realize that they don't need to go to the corner. I think Collin may be first. The tups are now 4, did we see the twins in time outs, or banished, when they were 4? It seems to me that the extra stress in Kate's life caused by the production of this show is making her age very very quickly, turning old and tired before her time. Stock up on Centrum Silver, Kate...the twins will be pre-teens in a few short years. You'll really have to Buck Up, Sister...Lock and Load.

Edited by MunchkinManJon, Jun 5, 2008 @ 7:57 PM.


#2259

Sturm und Drang

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:08 PM

I still keep missing GumGate, dang.

I can't figure out when this new intro happened either, and I didn't tape/DVR it or anything. Are they serious? "Tiny controller?" Can anyone list all of the "personalities?"

#2260

carried away

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:14 PM

I can't figure out when this new intro happened either, and I didn't tape/DVR it or anything. Are they serious? "Tiny controller?" Can anyone list all of the "personalities?"

I think that intro is from the second season. Collin: Stubborn but kind; Mady: Our free-spirited child; Alexis: She's just wild; Hannah: The leader and mommy's helper; Joel: Sneaky and cuddly; Aaden: We call him our professor; Leah: A tiny controller; Cara: A sweetheart and everybody's friend (Not in that order, though).

Thanks, Daybreak! I knew it was something like that. I personally think most of the "personalities" are really vague and strange, like they don't know their children at all.

Edited by carried away, Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:33 PM.


#2261

twinks

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:17 PM

If these kids don't end up neurotic it'll be a miracle. Routine is important and necessary, but these rules......who could remember them all, let alone a bunch of toddlers.

#2262

Sturm und Drang

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:19 PM

Ah thanks. Hmm, Mady's title is actually less unflattering than I might have guessed. Of course I hear snark in it, but on the surface it's not so bad.

Collin and Joel's kind of sound like they wanted to just put "stubborn" and "sneaky," then they thought they should have a nice word in there too.

"Tiny controller" is definitely the weirdest, to me.

#2263

TVisGood

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:21 PM

Cara is something-or-other and "everyone's friend."

#2264

Daybreak

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:25 PM

[quote]Collin: Stubborn but kind; Mady: Our free-spirited child; Alexis: She's just wild; Hannah: The leader and mommy's helper; Joel: Sneaky and cuddly; Aaden: We call him our professor; Leah: A tiny controller. I don't remember how they describe Cara, though. [quote]

carried away, Cara was described as "a sweetie, and everyone's friend". The "Tiny Controler" thing puts a little light on the vomiting issue. (IMHO)

*edited to fix a double post.

Edited by Daybreak, Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:26 PM.


#2265

Lewanne

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:31 PM

Was just thinking while doing chores, if Leah has been throwing up every day (Kate's words) for over 2 years...my God she is only 3 almost 4 years old. If what Kate is saying is true, this girl has been throwing up daily for over half her life, starting when she was a toddler? Oh my word, that is AWFUL! At middle aged, like myself, 2 years doesn't seem that long, but when you put it into context... HOLY ORGANIC COW!

#2266

MZ30958

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:30 PM

Maybe then Alexis wouldn't have to yell "I...want...a....ba....gel" so many times before she was acknowledged.


Just because a child screams something at the top of her lungs does not need the parents need to drop whatever else they are doing and immediately reply to that child. If they know the rules, they also know the consequence for breaking the rule. [snip] if they are standing up in their chair screaming what they want, they know for sure they are not going to get their way by doing that. Alexis knew that is the rule in her house too, it wasn't necessary for J & K to calmly address it with her. It wasn't acceptable behavior, she goes to time out.

As for Leah throwing up, it is a complete control issue. She can turn it on and off in a second. I don't think it is wrong for Kate to tell her "don't you dare" when she is clearly forcing herself to throw up in an effort to control a situation.

Edited by TWoP Mars, Jun 5, 2008 @ 10:18 PM.
Off topic


#2267

beezer

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:36 PM

Not all parents are always sugar and spice and roses and sunshine when it comes to their children, IMO, so why should Jon and Kate be held to different standards? Because they have a television show?

I don't think they're held to different standards. I agree all parents don't control their anger and don't treat their kids what I think of as properly (and I agree all parents lose it once in a while, but I think Kate's behaviour isn't once in a whie). I think they're shitty parents, holding them to the same standard I, personally, consider good parenting.

I think they're immature, dumb, bad at this. I think Knobgate isn't the worst thing that has ever happened, I do think it's how she reacts to things, no matter how small, that she perceives as being wrong, bad, whatever.

I also don't understand the rule about the little boys and girls not being allowed in each other's rooms. I think Jon and Kate have some seriously fucked up, random ideas. I would get the little kids not being allowed in the older girls' room unless invited but the sex segregation is weird to me. It seems to emphasize rather than deemphasize the difference in sex, which I don't think the kids would think about otherwise. Same as Jon saying the boys don't like to kiss each other when apologizing. That's totally his weirdness he's putting on the kids, I don't think it'd at all occur to them on their own.

#2268

Lewanne

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:38 PM

What most got me about GumGate was how two-faced she was in dealing with Jodi. She seemed like she could have killed Jodi when at first, and then called her on the phone and put on her best victim act. It's interesting to see Kate interact with her many helpers.


Yes, I agree, it was like she was taking all of her anger on Jodi out on the already overloaded Colin, and those kids in the immediate area. Then when it came time to deal with Jodi, she had to tone it down a bit...don't want to risk losing that free babysitting when travelling hither, yither and yon for those love offerings and weekends away alone.

If the tups had never had gum and Kate constantly said no when they asked for it, I think there would have been a better chance of the tups saying no, having never tasted the forbidden fruit and being told not to. But the fact that we saw them being given gum by their parents on at least two occasions, makes me think they were given gum more times in their lives than what we saw in 22 minute episodes. Kate is not constant with anything. She seems to make up the rules as she goes along and changes them without notice, depending on Kate, not the circumstance. Nothing is consistent in that house, which I think is the worse thing of all for those kids.

#2269

Penn06

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:41 PM

Did Jon remind Alexis of the rule before banishing her to the naughty mat? Most young children need to be reminded over and over and over again before it really sinks in. Also, if the rules aren't consistantly followed and from all appearances they're not then that just adds to the confusion.

Finally in what warped mind does someone profess that a bagel is a rare treat?!!! It's not like J&K are restricting carbs for the kids - that's all they seem to eat at many meals.

#2270

Lewanne

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:42 PM

Just because a child screams something at the top of her lungs does not need the parents need to drop whatever else they are doing and immediately reply to that child.


I respectfully disagree. Alexis started in a lower tone, was ignored, probably assumed she wasn't heard, or realized she was being ignored, and cranked it up to get an answer. As a PP stated, you can't expect 3/4 year olds to remember all of the rules and the parents to just inflict the punishment without explanation of which rule they broke. Kate would not have had to "drop whatever else she was doing", just a simple "No, Alexis, you may not have a bagel, and if you ask again, you will go to the corner". Then if she does it again, the child knows why.

#2271

mintyfresh

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 8:51 PM

Maybe this show could combine efforts with Super Nanny and do a TV special together.


I personally would pay money to see a very special episode of Wife Swap with any of these scenarios:

1) Gosselings and Duggars. Because trying to wrangle eight shrieking, puking kids might be the key to Michelle Duggar showing her first real emotion...PANIC. And Kate will have no excuse for whining about exhaustion considering that the buddy system accounts for 99.5% of Duggar childrearing.

2) Gosselins and Dilleys. Can you imagine how Kate would attempt to justify whoring her family out to another sextuplet family who managed to raise well-adjusted, well cared for kids without resorting to that?* The only thing is Jon might get too used to being treated as an equal and the kids might actually get more filling meals.

3) Gosselins and Roloffs. Oh man. Talk about the first ever death captured on reality television. Kate would have an aneurysm if she had to live in that dump the Roloffs call home. Either that or she would suffocate from the fumes of Lysol, rubbing alcohol, and bleach she'd drench the place in. Poor Amy would probably just let the kids do and eat whatever they want. Jon might object for a day or two but after awhile I don't think he'd care if the kids ever ate another organic bite.


*To be fair, I realize the whole reality craze didn't truly pick up until after the Dilley kids were older. I don't really count the specials because there were only a handful of them over a longer period of time.

#2272

MZ30958

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 9:03 PM

you can't expect 3/4 year olds to remember all of the rules and the parents to just inflict the punishment without explanation of which rule they broke.


IMO, Jon and Kate can expect their 4 year olds to remember not to repeatedly ask/scream what they want, because these kids are normally very quiet and well mannered at the table. These kids are 4, not 2. Alexis knew that was not appropriate.

#2273

achtfach

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 9:19 PM

IMO, Jon and Kate can expect their 4 year olds to remember not to repeatedly ask/scream what they want, because these kids are normally very quiet and well mannered at the table. These kids are 4, not 2. Alexis knew that was not appropriate.


Since Jon and Kate already model this behavior (yelling to be heard/to get someone to do what you want) on a regular basis, a practice fully acknowledged to be part of their highly effective parenting techniques, then they have another thing coming if they expect their children to do as they say and not as they do. Just MHO of course.

Edited by achtfach, Jun 5, 2008 @ 9:41 PM.


#2274

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 9:33 PM

Regarding Alexis and the BagelGate: Did Kate or Jon ever address on camera that Alexis was put into Time Out not for requesting the bagel but for how she requested it? Because I agree that a yelling kid who keeps yelling louder and louder needs to be addressed. Then again, Kate and Jon do yell a lot so I guess Alexis is only modeling what she sees!

#2275

Lewanne

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 10:15 PM

Since Jon and Kate already model this behavior (yelling to be heard/to get someone to do what you want) on a regular basis, a practice fully acknowledged to be part of their highly effective parenting techniques, then they have another thing coming if they expect their children to do as they say and not as they do. Just MHO of course.


Word.

That house is a giant screaming match. Alexis was behaving just like Kate when she is trying to get Jon to do something ie:
Jon....JON....JOOOOON.....HELLLLLLLLOOOOOO.....HELLOOOOOOOO....Do Something.....DO SOMETHING..... in louder and louder tones, until Jon, in frustration, responds. Which is exactly what Alexis did, only Jon doesn't end up in time out at the end (although he has a shirt that says he needs to).

#2276

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 10:20 PM

That house is a giant screaming match. Alexis was behaving just like Kate when she is trying to get Jon to do something ie:
Jon....JON....JOOOOON.....HELLLLLLLLOOOOOO.....HELLOOOOOOOO....Do Something.....DO SOMETHING..... in louder and louder tones, until Jon, in frustration, responds.


Someone should send Kate to timeout when she yells. :)

#2277

evilandproud

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 10:21 PM

Which is exactly what Alexis did, only Jon doesn't end up in time out at the end (although he has a shirt that says he needs to).


I would think that having to endure Kate is punishment enough.

I despise Kate's parenting methods but I do think that Leah's vomiting isn't a serious medical issue. Growing up I had a very close relative that threw up every time he was excited until he was about twelve. It made sitting across from him at family gatherings really exciting, but anyways, he had been to more than a few doctors for it and none of them were overly concerned. If I was Leah I would probobaly be working myself up into vomiting fits living in that house too.

#2278

OSM Mom

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 10:28 PM

Common Sense 101.


I think both J&K flunked that course long ago.

#2279

Lewanne

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 10:32 PM

Since Jon and Kate already model this behavior (yelling to be heard/to get someone to do what you want) on a regular basis, a practice fully acknowledged to be part of their highly effective parenting techniques, then they have another thing coming if they expect their children to do as they say and not as they do. Just MHO of course.


According to Kate, Leah can stop the vomiting when Kate yells at her (ie: DON'T YOU DARE), which tells me it isn't a physical thing, that cannot be controlled, but rather an emotional thing, which can be even worse. "A tiny controller"? Indeed, but a tiny controller with issues. JMO of course.

#2280

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Posted Jun 5, 2008 @ 11:52 PM

RE: Bagelgate. When Alexis asked for a bagel, i am quite sure Jon did not even respond to her. So of course she is going to keep asking, and in louder tones. I think it was disrespectful of Jon to just ignore her.

Now, if Alexis asked Jon and he told her no, and she kept it up, then absolutely, that needed to be addressed.

I am also in the camp that can't comprehend why a bagel is such a "rare treat" I think 7 yr olds should be treated differently than the 3-4 yr olds, but I don't think food is a good idea. A later bedtime, a sleepover, sure those are extra things that are benefits of being older, but I think the food thing is seriously fucked up.

I get the feeling once the "official" mealtime is over and the kitchen is immaculate, no more food may be consumed until the next meal. I think it had more to do with the fear of Alexis getting "crummies" on the kitchen floor and Jon knew Kate would flip, than the bagel being such a holy relic for all to behold. Just MHO.