Edited by marxfan, Feb 7, 2008 @ 12:19 AM.
Beauty and the Beast: The First Time I Loved Forever
Posted Feb 6, 2008 @ 7:24 PM
Posted Feb 6, 2008 @ 8:14 PM
Posted Feb 6, 2008 @ 8:55 PM
I just finished Netflixing the first two seasons and remembering how much I loved this show. Even if Catherine and Vincent got to kiss less than Nuke on As The World Turns.
Posted Feb 6, 2008 @ 11:24 PM
I almost don't want to watch again for fear it won't live up to my memories. I had no idea it was on DVD.
Does it pass the test of time?
Posted Feb 6, 2008 @ 11:58 PM
Some of the standalone eps are a little weak and you could make a drinking game from their use of stock shots like Vincent on top of the subway car.
Rewatching, I think I might have gotten all my knowledge of poetry and classical music when I was younger from this show.
Posted Feb 7, 2008 @ 1:23 AM
Posted Feb 7, 2008 @ 7:31 PM
I've tried to figure out how old Mouse was when Vincent found him. They said he'd been stealing from the community below and living by himself in the tunnels for awhile.
Ask head-scratching questions, like why does Mouse spoke pidgin English when he was taught to speak by the ridiculously eloquent Vincent?
Did he ever have any education other than from Vincent? He seems to have a natural aptitude for mechanics, but his verbal skills are limited. And the "Wonderful Life" episode showed that without Vincent he'd have no language at all.
Posted Feb 7, 2008 @ 8:29 PM
Rewatching, I think I might have gotten all my knowledge of poetry and classical music when I was younger from this show.
It's sad really, I did get Shakespeare in high school, but Rilke, Byron, Blake, even any American poets like Frost or Dickinson, I can't recall being exposed to. Or if I did, it didn't stick, until B&B. I really wish that Perlman would do another poetry recording, with that gorgeous honey voice of his.
I owned two tie-in books "Song of Orpheus" and "Masques" as well as the soundtrack, and even bought a graphic novel.
Just don't make me relive "though lovers be lost" and "the rest is silence." Because I am Still! Bitter! <mutters>fairy tales are meant to have HAPPY endings</mutters>
Posted Feb 12, 2008 @ 2:42 PM
Now, if Father had said to Vincent, "I'm afraid someone will see you and try to kill you", I'd give him a pass. Instead, Father rips Vincent a new one and lectures him about how selfish and stupid he's being (speak for yourself, old man) and then plays the guilt card by telling him the world Below would crumble without Vincent. It's all about the damn community, and Vincent's not allowed to take a risk and go after what he wants. Several guilt trips later, Vincent tells Catherine no, leaving them both disheartened. God, that episode pisses me off.
Posted Feb 13, 2008 @ 6:09 PM
One of my favorite episodes was when they realized that on Halloween Vincent and Catherine could spend time above ground together, and did so. It was all rather bittersweet, because the next morning everything had to return to 'normal', but for those precious hours, they could revel in their love.
Posted Feb 14, 2008 @ 4:17 PM
It's awesome tha Ron Perlman is still big in films. I wish Linda Hamilton had gotten more out of her career. Between this and the two Terminator, I had a mad crush. Before Nikita, before Buffy and other strong female character on TV and in film, I think Hamilton may've embodied the first (okay maybe She-Ra came first).
I really need to buy this series.
Posted May 6, 2008 @ 7:37 AM
I don't know the titles of the episodes, except for the one about the bluebird...was that the one with the artist faking his death.. i loved that one, it had alot of humor in it, as well as tenderness. :Don't worry, we're having him committed! Soon!" I liked also the one where Catherine remembers her mother, and the one where she loses her father was so poignant. The death of Ellie..so sad....I did not like the one where Cain was hiding in the tunnels to escape prosecution for the hit and run death of a child, and when the mother of the child saw him above, nobody below thought he should turn himself in. But the bedroom with all the candles lit was beautiful. I didn't like the ones where Vincent attacked people, I liked the romantic and loving and funny aspects of the show.
I thought Mouse was challenged in some way, whichis why he talked like that. Was it Mouse or Pascal that was always banging on the pipes?
Posted May 6, 2008 @ 2:26 PM
Word. And since it was the season/series finale, it's so easy to explain. The doctor (who had been fairly pitying to Catherine during her captivity) just pulled a Juliet and gave her a drug that made it looked like she died. Or Vincent used their restored bond to call her back from death a la The Sentinel.
After Catherine allegedly died, but never did, in my mind, there was no show.
Posted May 7, 2008 @ 5:37 PM
I own the first two seasons and have absolutely no plans on getting the third. There's just no point, in my opinion. I also received two of the novelizations as gifts when I was a teen, but I'm not sure where they are now.
I still think it's a beautiful show, but I'm not entirely sure they ever gave a reason why the two never really kissed. Was it just that Vincent was reluctant to loose control or that he was never fully convinced that Catherine wanted him that way? I know that on their 2-year anniversary he was going to go inside her apartment for the first time, but that got interrupted. He didn't go in again until he became sick at the end of season 2.
Posted May 7, 2008 @ 6:23 PM
Posted May 7, 2008 @ 7:29 PM
Also, 8 p.m. time slot.
Edited by Fabrisse, May 7, 2008 @ 7:30 PM.
Posted May 7, 2008 @ 7:48 PM
A box of rocks is more human than Reverend Wildmon and his ilk. As far as the 8 pm timeslot, was not Melrose Place on at 8 pm? There was good wholesome fare for the kids all right!
Edited by susannah2000, May 7, 2008 @ 7:48 PM.
Posted May 8, 2008 @ 12:21 PM
I would have loved to have heard the discussions that must have gone on with the writers and producers about how to show (or rather avoid showing) the event that led to Catherine's pregnancy, but the way it ended up onscreen--if in fact it was supposed to have occurred at that moment in the cave--seems to contribute to the show's 'bestiality' criticisms (which I think are absurd to begin with but okay, the times were different) rather than sideswipe or assuage them. Any fan of the show knows that Vincent is not a beast, but quite the opposite--this cultured, sensitive creature, especially if he were dazed and confused, would not be screwing his own true love in filthy ripped clothes on a gravelly bed of dirt.
I was also very disappointed for several other reasons, and here are two of them:
1) When the "Six Months Later" caption came up onscreen. That was so clearly just a device to advance Catherine's pregnancy while keeping everything else about her situation the same. Made no sense that after all that time Vincent could suddenly commune with the fetus, but not before, and that she was kept in an office building on Sixth Avenue in the middle of the city but nobody, not Elliot, not the Helpers, and not Vincent, and not Joe (despite the obvious machinations of his boss) had a clue about it. I just didn't buy that at all.
2) That Vincent was shown so busy chasing the helicopter that the dying, drugged up Catherine has to stagger up to the roof in her nightie to find him, rather than him finding her first. I knew they were going to kill her off, but I thought the tragedy of the moment was muted by the absurdity of her climbing up the stairs to the high-rise rooftop that way just moments after she'd given birth, not even knowing that Vincent was up there growling at Gabriel.
So far I'm liking Diana as a character, though how she's managed to be employed by the police while lounging around in her apartment all day tacking up photos and reading poetry and musing upon crime 'puzzles'--well, that's quite a trick. The scene where she rescues Vincent and brings him to her apartment was cool, but then it was endless shots of her sitting around her apartment for three days while he's mostly unconscious. I get that they were trying to establish her growing feelings for him, but it got so boring I went and made a sandwich, and she was still staring at him from her chair with a determined look when I got back.
All in all, so far Season 3 is not as bad as I was led to believe, but I was prepared for Catherine's death before I saw it. I bet that if I was watching the series as it was being aired on television, I would have given up on the show in disgust after Catherine's death, because it really gutted the emotional power of the series when the point of it became not Vincent and Catherine's star-crossed love but rather Vincent looking for his son in the midst of his grief.
Edited by Lesbonaut, May 8, 2008 @ 12:35 PM.
Posted May 8, 2008 @ 9:37 PM
Posted May 8, 2008 @ 10:17 PM
BTW when they sent the blood to the lab it came back as not human. There is no way something with blood THAT different would be able to breed with a human and you would think if somehow they had made a child it would not look totally human.
I had no problem with Jo Anderson who IIRC is Gillian X-Files Anderson's sister, but of course I just didn't want Catherine gone. I don't think they went as far as to mean to have her "replace" Catherine and even if the show had continued I would have hoped that her interest in Vincent would have remained unrequited. Sure in real life you SHOULD get over loss and find somebody else, but this was a romantic fantasy so it wouldn't have been right for him to ever have another romantic love.
Posted May 9, 2008 @ 12:42 PM
They put out an album of Vincent reading poetry, right? I vaguely remember a cousin having it.
Posted May 10, 2008 @ 11:11 AM
I liked the way the men who loved Catherine worked together in Season 3. Eliot Burch, Vincent, and Joe Malone all found ways to honor her.
Posted May 10, 2008 @ 12:28 PM
I watched it again, and you're right, susannah2000, that there's a flower opening, and a slow-mo scene of Catherine's and Vincent's hands entwining, and flashbacks to some of their most romantic moments, with goopy music throughout. I think I suppressed it because I thought it was cheesy. (He wasn't chained up at all, he's just standing there in a rage growling, then comes toward her and collapses.) She thinks he's dead, and she leans over him and kisses him, and that's when they fade to the flower opening. I guess you can interpret that as something sexual taking place, but it seems very inappropriate at that point. I interpreted it, and still do, as Catherine bringing Vincent back to life, kind of calling him back from the dead, with a kiss--kind of a variation on the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale. The flower symbolizes Vincent's return to life, and his mind remembering who she is and what they are to each other.
if it was not showing that they did the deed on a cold damp cave floor, while he was insane, what was the whole deal with the flower
When Catherine leans over to kiss Vincent on the mouth (and they do show this--though it's muted by the darkness), he's conked out on the ground; when Father enters and discovers them there, they are basically in the same position, and Vincent's still on the ground, dazed but awake. The only difference is that Catherine no longer has her coat on. Otherwise still fully dressed, no mussed up hair, and Vincent is still weak and out-of-it. As we grownups know, you don't get pregnant by taking your coat off. Unless Vincent is such a strange, alien creature that he can inseminate someone by kissing them--an adolescent girl's nightmare.
As I said, I think a quickie on the cave floor while he's semi-insane or even just semi-conscious, is totally out of character with all that has gone on in the previous two years and makes no sense in terms of the story. I agree with you entirely about that, MDKNIGHT. When it's revealed that Catherine is pregnant, we have to go scrambling back to try to figure out when that might have happened. I much prefer to think that they consummated their eternal love in his comfy bed with a fluffy coverlet, the stained glass lighting behind them and his pretty knick-knacks all around, a time and place with no "beastly" connotations. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.
In rewatching these shows, I am continually impressed with the clothing of the people who live below, especially Vincent. You couldn't imagine a better "legendary fantasy" look to his outfits. The costume designer was brilliant.
Edited by Lesbonaut, May 10, 2008 @ 12:48 PM.
Posted May 11, 2008 @ 12:34 AM
In regard to Vincent's origins, I was under the impression that Paracelsus had inseminated Vincent's mother with some kind of experimental something, just to see what would happen, I guess?
Posted May 11, 2008 @ 6:09 PM
Posted May 11, 2008 @ 9:50 PM
He was batshit crazy, belivably a genius and thoroughly vicious.
As Fabrisse said, Paracelsus lied to Vincent but he didn't just do that. His wife was the one who found him outside St Vincent's Hospital and named him. He constructed an elaborate fantasy where he experimented on his pregnant wife and Vincent ripped his way out of her belly. In reality Paracelsus poisoned his wife leading to his exile by Father.
He essentially caused Vincent's breakdown disguising himself as Father and telling him the lie described above. When Vincent (who I think was drugged) killed him he pulled off his mask whispering "Now you are my son" as his death rattle. At this point Vincent simply lost it and to this day the memory of Paracelsus makes me jump at shadows.
Posted May 11, 2008 @ 11:33 PM
Posted May 11, 2008 @ 11:50 PM
I didn't know this, or if I did hear it, not remember. How did Vincent get into Father's care if paracelsus and his wife found him? Also, does any historian recall if the below community was made to shelter Vincent or if it was there already? Was Father ever married? Did he have any biological children?
According to the show, Paracelsus started to go a little mad and became obsessed with Vincent - as a result, Paracelsus' wife became afraid for Vincent and gave him to Father to care for, which really sent Paracelsus over the edge. In Ceremony of Innocence in S2, we learn that Paracelsus has confused everything in his head and thinks that Vincent is his biological child (as opposed to his real biological child who died at birth I think). The community was very young but already in existence when Vincent was found and brought to live there. I think they said on the show several times that Vincent became a unifying symbol that the new community was able to rally around.
Father was married - I forget her name, but she appears in Song of Orpheus in S1. She contacts Father because she's dying and wants to make amends for having abandoned him right after their marriage when he was accused of un-American activities by the McCarthy committee for, I think, expressing concerns about atomic energy, etc. She was socially prominent and her father had the marriage with Father (Jacob Wells) annulled.
Father had a biological child by a woman who lived in the tunnels. I think she died in childbirth. The son is Devin (played by Linda Hamilton's then-husband, Bruce Campbell), who was Vincent's best friend growing up and doesn't find out that he's Father's biological son until he returns as an adult in Promises of Someday.
Posted May 12, 2008 @ 1:07 AM
Posted May 12, 2008 @ 9:30 AM
seeking to create an ideal society. John Pater(Paracelsus) and Jacob Wells(Father) were the leaders and innovators of this community. Paracelsus actually developed the system of communication through pipes.