Jump to content

15-13: "A Slippery Little Sucker" 2007.12.16


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.

414 replies to this topic

#61

Wildcard28

Wildcard28

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:03 PM

Could not disagree more. Todd got a numerical advantage for his alliance early on owing to challenge victories he had nothing to do with, and won mostly in spite of the way he played the game, thanks to the unbelievable stupidity of people like James and Denise, whose unbelievable stupidity he could not possibly have anticipated. Todd stumbled backwards into victory, in spite of playing a worse game than any other winner ever has. If everybody plays stupidly, somebody still wins, and that's what happened here, in my opinion.


One thing that Todd study very well is how to work the jury. His reponse to J-R was pitch perfect.

#62

Caroma

Caroma

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:New York City

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:05 PM

I agree with Miss Alli about Todd (in post #51; dunno about the sexism, Todd was going all snaps, girl! towards the end) and with Orion7 about Amanda. Good analysis. To get ahead in life, I'll make sure to own up to my backstabbing and dishonesty, which impresses a lot more people than I would have thought.

I didn't want Toad--did I say Todd? I meant Toad--to win the million bucks. I didn't want James to win the Fan Fave hundred grand. I didn't want to see Jeff suck off James, force Denise to hear that Courtney thought she sucked at life, ask Erik and Jaime if they'd done the horizontal boogie.

Oh well.

Onward to the Half-Stars.

Edited by Caroma, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:11 PM.


#63

Stinger97

Stinger97

    Stalker

  • Gender:Male

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:05 PM

Best part of the episode for me was J.R. attempting to take the cap off the marker before voting, only to be pulling on the wrong side. I really do think this is the stupidest Survivor cast ever.

I also have to agree with the few who've mentioned that Courtney has grown on them despite many of her comments. I usually can appreciate someone who is generally charismatic and can speak their mind, and Courtney is and does both. I really thought that she may have been able to pull out a win with the jury, but it wasn't meant to be. Unfortunate too, because I think that would have redeemed this dreadful season for me.

#64

millernate

millernate

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:05 PM

Todd stumbled backwards into victory, in spite of playing a worse game than any other winner ever has.


Vecipia? Sandra? Especially Sandra, who stumbled in on pure luck due to a plot twist that rendered the season into crazy land strategy wise.

Having said that? Todd sure ain't no Brian, Earl, Richard, or Tom.

#65

goombalina

goombalina

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:05 PM

I can't believe Denise would have won if she had made it to final 3. I don't think PG would have voted for her or Erik. I think James is the only sure vote she might have had.

#66

thuganomics85

thuganomics85

    Stalker

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:06 PM

I suspect Todd had this locked up no matter what, but I was cringing through Amanda's final tribal performance. I don't know what happen, but I thought it was pretty bad. Even Courtney came off looking decent. But Amanda? Ugh, I'm disappointed. As much as I dislike him, Todd did handle the jury perfectly. But he better realise that he was lucky that he was on this season, and doesn't think he's as great as Hatch or Yul, because he's defintely not, IMO.

Anything good about tonight. Errr... James was actually kind of nice and nonbitter. Good for him. I think he has it in him to be a nice guy; he just needs to tone down his ego, and quit acting like a dick. I still think he's overrated, but I don't despise him, like I do with Rupert.

Thank God, it's over. Hopefully next season will be better. And I defintely can't wait till TAR 12 comes back next week. Last year, Survivor ruled, TAR drooled. Now, TAR is whipping Survivor's ass.

#67

Not Sure

Not Sure

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:09 PM

Amanda's gotta be kicking herself for blowing this one. Her downfall began with the next-to-last TC, and she freefalled (freefell?) through the last TC. She completely failed to articulate her role in the game, and when she did it was too often apologetic rather than matter-of-fact. Rather than winning jury votes, she lost them (I'm guessing that J-R, Jaime, and PG were all hers to take if she outperforms Todd or even just doesn't collapse).

Todd, OTOH, and to a certain extent Courtney, played the jury well. Even though I didn't really care much for either of them, they earned what they got at the end.

Jeff -- I usually give you a pass as the host, even when you seem to have bias in your TCs, but this may be the first time you have been so very transparent in your fawning. You need to gather your dignity back up before next season, especially since it's pretty darn obvious you'll have James to kiss up to again. Blech.

Edited by Not Sure, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:13 PM.


#68

Miss Alli

Miss Alli

    Stalker

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:11 PM

I'd rather not play the feminist card when I see the female players actually apologize endlessly as if they really did do something wrong.

I'm not playing a "card"; I assure you, this is my actual opinion. And in my opinion, it's not a coincidence that it's always women who wind up apologizing. I totally agree that Amanda did a poor job of answering questions; I also think it made no difference what she said. Of course it's not the only factor -- of course, and I'm sure I'm exaggerating owing to how stupid, predictable, and boring this season was and how irritated I am that I had to watch the entire thing only to see such bad play rewarded with a win because everyone else played EVEN WORSE. It's not an absolute, you're right -- Tina beat Colby. But it is my opinion that you will never see a woman win the way Todd won -- as an impish schemer. Perhaps that's just the people who they choose to cast. Maybe they don't cast women who are effective impish schemers. Either way, it's the least satisfying season that I, personally, have ever watched. At least Vanuatu Chris and Jenna Morasca didn't subject everyone to delusional speeches about how they planned in advance precisely who all the other players would be and how every single thing that happened was part of their grand plan. Grrrr!

And: yes, I think he played worse than Sandra, who at least didn't hand over two idols and then have her ass pulled out of the fire by someone else, as Todd did when Amanda was smart enough -- when he was not -- to realize that they needed to get James out of the game. Vecepia's season is the one of which I saw the least, so I won't comment on that.

#69

Orion7

Orion7

    Stalker

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Minneapolis, Minnesota
  • Interests:Being TWoP Howard

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:14 PM

Colby and Tina notwithstanding, when men and women from the same alliance face each other before a jury, the jury generally says, "He was a spirited, awesome imp; you were a backstabbing phony." At final tribal councils, boys rule and girls drool.

That thought did cross my mind, but tonight it didn't seem to hurt Courtney, whose only strategy was to vote with Amanda and Todd.

If Amanda was going to go down, I'd have rather seen her go down with her colors flying, rather than whimpering the way she did.

Edited by Orion7, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:16 PM.


#70

Nascar

Nascar

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:14 PM

I was hoping that Amanda would win because I thought she played the best game and, based on her pageant experience, would handle the jury questions better than she did. I'm not sure she lied about having Denise's back. I think the clip we saw may have been earlier than it appeared as shown.

#71

Lantern7

Lantern7

    Stalker

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Staten Island, NY

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:15 PM

Big fat whatever. And really...Amanda got one less vote than Courtney? Really?!? The hell did that happen?

Dullest season since Vanuatu. I hope Todd likes the million bucks he stumbled into. Honestly, it was like the college football scene, where all the top-ranked teams kept losing and falling in the polls. I hope James enjoys Probst on his nuts until February. I hope Courtney doesn't get blown away in a Noreaster, and I really hope that Denise lands on her feet. But really...bring on Fans Vs. Favorites.

#72

Madhoo

Madhoo

    Video Archivist

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:15 PM

But in most cases, it is my opinion that you will never see a woman win the way Todd won -- as an impish schemer. Perhaps that's just the people who they choose to cast. Maybe they don't cast women who are effective impish schemers.


That is a very interesting point - Courtney possibly came the closest to that, but I have never seen a woman do the impish schemer yet....

#73

Dcbi

Dcbi

    Video Archivist

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:16 PM

There were a couple of people on the jury (James and JR), it seems to me, that were not going to vote for a woman unless they did not have a choice. There always are those type people on Survivor because they allegedly make for "good tv."

Amanda was in a tough spot regarding Denise and Todd. She probably should have known how Denise would react to being ejected from the Final 3, and should have forced a tie in that final Tribal council.

The producers really need to shake this show up, at least once, by casting all Machiavellian players and eliminating the passive sheep like Denise, Courtney and Eric, et. al. In what universe is Denise a player anyone would want to pick for this game?

#74

blt03

blt03

    Channel Surfer

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:17 PM

I'm so disappointed in Amanda. I wanted her to win and I think she could have but she blew it. I knew she would blow it when she was crying about voting off Denise. Enjoy your final three spot girl and be proud of the way you played the game. Her entire demeanor showed that she had mentally already lost.

#75

Muwarr90

Muwarr90

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:19 PM

I'm not sure she lied about having Denise's back. I think the clip we saw may have been earlier than it appeared as shown


Well, the "got your back" quote may be somewhat in question, but tonight we saw her tell Denise "I won't right your name down." and then she did just that. There was no reason at all for her to outright lie to Denise at that point. Amanda had nothing to gain, and it would just piss off Denise in the end. Dumb move at the exact wrong time.

#76

Ellenore

Ellenore

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:19 PM

I'm not playing a "card"; I assure you, this is my actual opinion. And in my opinion, it's not a coincidence that it's always women who wind up apologizing. I totally agree that Amanda did a poor job of answering questions; I also think it made no difference what she said. Of course it's not the only factor -- of course. Tina beat Colby. But in most cases, it is my opinion that you will never see a woman win the way Todd won -- as an impish schemer. Perhaps that's just the people who they choose to cast. Maybe they don't cast women who are effective impish schemers.


I'm totally of two minds about this. On the one hand, Amanda's performance in front of the jury was terrible. On the other hand, if she HAD owned everything, I don't know if she would have won (see: Twila). At least she didn't get the Becky/Cassandra edit (though she did get their reunion show slots of invisibility).


Now how PG (the actual immunity monster) was treated at the reunion vs James? That was just out and out sexism.

#77

Orihara Kaoru

Orihara Kaoru

    Loyal Viewer

  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Adam Lambert, Project Runway, The Amazing Race, slash, fanfiction (shut up, it's awesome), Harry Potter, Survivor

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:20 PM

Best part of the episode for me was J.R. attempting to take the cap off the marker before voting, only to be pulling on the wrong side. I really do think this is the stupidest Survivor cast ever.


That was awesome! You just know the editors put that in there to say, "Hee, look at what a stupid ass this guy is!" It may have been viewer manipulation, but it was awesome viewer manipulation.

Edited by Orihara Kaoru, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:26 PM.


#78

DemasiadoTV

DemasiadoTV

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:20 PM

Todd won it at the jury. His response to JR was simply awesome.

Amanda, what happened to you?

And did anyone notice Courtney looking like she was flipping off Jeff when he started to ask her about the 'Denise sucking at life' question?

Edited by DemasiadoTV, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:22 PM.


#79

hegellite

hegellite

    Fanatic

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:20 PM

Personally I don't really see that. I think Todd may not be likeable, but personally felt he did serviceably well in the game with a few notable screw ups of course. Amanda did fairly well too. But in my opinion she just did not sell herself very well at the final council. I actually felt Courtney owned her game much better than Amanda did. Todd too. But of course, it's a matter of opinion.


I think Todd played an extremely poor game. However, I will award him the point for a generally excellent jury performance. Except for the times in which he was obnoxiously self-satisfied (telling people, "thanks for getting me to F3" seemed ill-advised), he answered all questions with some variation on drawing a distinction between his friendship with other players vs. game strategy. I mean, he probably stole that distinction from Boston Rob, but, whatever.

It was a lot better than poor Amanda's performance. I, too, was cringing the whole time. I was expecting her to do a lot better. Well, firstly, I had hopes when she won immunity that she was going to be voting Todd OFF at F3. But her jury-answers were terrible. She tried to make a hopeless distinction between "lying" and "going back on her word" whereas Todd fed J-R exactly what he wanted to hear ("I voted you off because you were a huge brainy strategic threat to me"). She sort of waffled, and tried to go the honor-and-dignity route, and contradicted herself multiple times.

At least Courtney held her own. I liked how she pretty much refused to play Jaime's trash-talking game.

What an annoying season. Like I've said multiple times, it's depressing when people who play poorly win. So it was a depressing ending to a lame and boring season.

Edited by hegellite, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:26 PM.


#80

albertj

albertj

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:22 PM

I don't believe that James and J-R were ever going to vote for a woman to win $1 million. They'd be damned if they were going to admit that they were outplayed "by a girl."

So Amanda already started in the hole.

I'm abit surprised that Courtney pulled two votes, though.

And Jaime's vote for Todd surprised me a little.

#81

LucyDog

LucyDog

    Channel Surfer

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:24 PM

Jeff -- I usually give you a pass as the host, even when you seem to have bias in your TCs, but this may be the first time you have been so very transparent in your fawning.


Couldn't agree more NotSure. I would add to that the disregard for PG. He seemed to have it out for her. He actually called her 'toxic' at one point. IMHO she was playing a good game. This is where it is hard to play as a woman. I think there is a lot of truth of Miss Alli's comment in that it is harder for women to play that type of game without getting a bad label put on them. However, Amanda totally blew it with lame answers. She gave it away.

#82

Hunter Rose

Hunter Rose

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:24 PM

Amanda, what happened to you?

She unraveled. She lost her mental game right at the end when the pressure of who to take and who to keep and what to tell everyone finally got to be too much. So, she'd already surrendered and was just trying to tough it out in case things fell her way at final TC.

#83

MarchingOcelot

MarchingOcelot

    Fanatic

  • Location:Toronto
  • Interests:Filling in interests bubbles on websites

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:25 PM

That is a very interesting point - Courtney possibly came the closest to that, but I have never seen a woman do the impish schemer yet....


I think the thing with Courtney's performance is that she didn't so much play up her strategy, more that she stuck to her selling point, which was "Who knew?" She made it to the final in spite of the fact that she was negative, bitchy, and the approximate diametre of a piece of bamboo, and that in itself was kind of impressive.

Edited by MarchingOcelot, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:25 PM.


#84

Netfoot

Netfoot

    Fanatic

  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barbados
  • Interests:Girls, model aeroplanes, sharp things, one particular dog...

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:28 PM

I had to forgo an episode of The Amazing Race for that shit?!??

Todd, self-aggrandizing WANKER wins the million and takes hairstyle tips from Denise? Amanda doesn't just shoot herself in the foot with her FTC performance, she actually blows her leg off at the knee? Courtney admits that she had no fucking game whatsoever and still comes second? Lunch-lardass, who has known she was out at F4 for weeks because she refused to do anything about it, (and should be shocked she got past F14 in any case) gets pissy when she is, you know, out at F4? In a huge surprise move, TPTB award James 100K and (wanna bet?) a spot on Survivor: Micronesia?

Fuck, fuck, fuckety fuck!

#85

jokerinthepack

jokerinthepack

    Channel Surfer

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:28 PM

I can't believe Amanda managed to take such a perfect position in the game and blow it. Not only did she manage to get to Final Four without anyone giving a thought to voting her out (ever? I don't remember), she won immunity with class and kept the original alliance together. She should have pointed out to the jury how Todd's "strategy" nearly gave James the million--there was no need for strategic moves, all they had to do was Pagong Zhan Hu! She should have pointed out how the other two wimped out of challenges and left Amanda to stop their competitors like PG from winning. Instead she relied on her big sad doe eyes to win people over, which unfortunately did not cut it. Erik is the only one with any sense.

#86

Nitefall

Nitefall

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:31 PM

While I see the point that the man tends to get more positive credit for "scheming" while the woman tends to get called a bitch for it and when there's an alliance between a man and a woman there's this tendency to give credit to the man for the strategy, I can't quite agree either was in play in this case. Amanda played the "I was nicer than Todd" role and lost. I would have liked to see her play the "I was the one who actually made the *smart* decisions in our alliance," because, damn it, it was the truth! She had the thing lined up right; then she didn't follow through! If she had played the jury right in the first place and still lost, *then* it would have been proof of the hypothesis posed in my first sentence. As it stands, all this indicates is perhaps Amanda *thought* the hypothesis to be true and played what she thought was her only chance. But if that was the case, she should have tried to dump Todd and gone with Denise.

The "doe eyes" approach was just really bad endgame play; and it's really hard to say how it would have gone down if she hadn't played it.

#87

Kirblar

Kirblar

    Video Archivist

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:36 PM

Yeah, Amanda could have easily won it, but she refused to own her own gameplay and tried to play the "I played nicer!" card. Which NEVER works when you aren't a Chris/Danni-style underdog.

#88

albertj

albertj

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:36 PM

So, Denise's grand plan, the won that was worth passing up a chance at guaranteed F3 was: either win F4 immunity (when she'd never come close in an IC yet), or plead poor-mouth and try to guilt yourself into the finals?

I'm glad Courtney called that bullshit out for what it was. I'm just sorry she didn't do it to Denise's face during the game.

And I'm terribly disappointed in Amanda's performance at FTC. I wonder if getting called out during the F4 TC really threw her that much.

#89

AngleMan

AngleMan

    Couch Potato

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:38 PM

Miss Alli does have a point about how women don't win for being 'schemers'. Usually it's cause the Jury is pissed off at the guy. I don't remember much about Danni's season though so I could be wrong.


Amanda's downfall was set very early on when she was worried about Todd being devious. Deviousness is part of the game, you don't win without it on some level.

I think for the most part. Women come into this and want to be liked, so they try to play a likeable game and it usually doesn't work.

The irony is that playing the other way will backfire even more often, because of double standards.

Edited by AngleMan, Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:45 PM.


#90

Madhoo

Madhoo

    Video Archivist

Posted Dec 16, 2007 @ 11:39 PM

Miss Alli does have a point about how women don't win for being 'schemers'. Usually it's cause the Jury is pissed off at the guy. i don't remember much about danni's season though so i could be wrong.


I guess the only issue is that it totally doesn't seem to apply to this season. It would have been great to see Amanda take credit for her moves and see what happens....she couldn't have done worse than the single vote she got now....